@Hunter44
I've been doing a lot of play testing vs. Junk Reanimator, the newer builds. I find we can run under them frequently game 1. The real issue is surviving the next two games.
Mr. Negative says,
I was less than excited by Skullcrack. Too often, it just wasn't that great.
I have also replaced Hellrider with Cryptborn Horror. I have found it far more reliable to get to the field turn 3 after I swing, and the worst I have had it do is come in as another 3/3, with trample. That was only against much faster decks than Reanimator.
I'm still fond of Wolfir Silverheart. He soaks up a lot of damage and punishes them for not having other things to do.
I don't like DRS instead of Cackler. It helps vs. Reanimator games 2 and 3, but it hurts us game 1 vs. every other deck and 2-of is only so-so Game 1.
But Mr. Positive replies,
I can see upping the land count by at least 1, though if you are going 4 Hellrider, 2 Thundermaw Hellkite, I can see why you want 24, but those 6 creatures seem greedy to me because that means that we have 8 4cmc and 2 5cmc creatures out of 28. That is going to seriously hurt our early explosiveness.
I also like Tragic Slip in this meta, even at the expense of Dreadbore main. -1/-1 is good right now and -13/-13 is great.
I have more testing to do, but I'm trying to keep the speed, and the flexibility, without over-compensating for Reanimator.
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Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Heres a weird question- how many creatures do you have in your graveyard by turn 5? Sweet new spoiler on the Magic Show on youtube came out-
Shadowborn Demon - 3BB
Flying
When ~ enters the battlefield, destroy target non-Demon creature.
When ~ enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you have 6 creatures in your graveyard.
5/6
It looks really good, but his drawback might actually be a drawback.
As for lands since you are at 24 I was thinking: 4 Overgrown Tomb, 4 Stomping Ground, 4 Blood Crypt, 4 Woodland Cemetary, 3 Rootbound Crag, 3 Dragonskull and 1 KWR. This should hopefully give enough GG for t2 geist.
Thanks! Wonderful, trying it out. A must need for turn 2 geist
@Hunter44
I've been doing a lot of play testing vs. Junk Reanimator, the newer builds. I find we can run under them frequently game 1. The real issue is surviving the next two games.
Mr. Negative says,
I was less than excited by Skullcrack. Too often, it just wasn't that great.
I have also replaced Hellrider with Cryptborn Horror. I have found it far more reliable to get to the field turn 3 after I swing, and the worst I have had it do is come in as another 3/3, with trample. That was only against much faster decks than Reanimator.
I'm still fond of Wolfir Silverheart. He soaks up a lot of damage and punishes them for not having other things to do.
I don't like DRS instead of Cackler. It helps vs. Reanimator games 2 and 3, but it hurts us game 1 vs. every other deck and 2-of is only so-so Game 1.
But Mr. Positive replies,
I can see upping the land count by at least 1, though if you are going 4 Hellrider, 2 Thundermaw Hellkite, I can see why you want 24, but those 6 creatures seem greedy to me because that means that we have 8 4cmc and 2 5cmc creatures out of 28. That is going to seriously hurt our early explosiveness.
I also like Tragic Slip in this meta, even at the expense of Dreadbore main. -1/-1 is good right now and -13/-13 is great.
I have more testing to do, but I'm trying to keep the speed, and the flexibility, without over-compensating for Reanimator.
I see, well based from my testing it didnt hurt much but you are right, maybe Ill remove 2 hellriders for greed reasons. I still need hellkite =)
Please tell me how you use cryptborn horror effectively. I am curious although its cute to think that itll drop a 5/5 most of the time based from your list
Heres a weird question- how many creatures do you have in your graveyard by turn 5? Sweet new spoiler on the Magic Show on youtube came out-
Shadowborn Demon - 3BB
Flying
When ~ enters the battlefield, destroy target non-Demon creature.
When ~ enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you have 6 creatures in your graveyard.
5/6
It looks really good, but his drawback might actually be a drawback.
This may become a dead card if you're against aggro. Not quite sure yet if this can work against decks with heavy removal like Jund Midrange =)
Vs Naya humans and aristocrats, it seems to work well. Remember Naya humans have overflowing creatures to attack and block when needed, so an unblockable threat helps Make sure you equip it to a 3/3 though to make it 5/5. Just make sure you're not prone to searing spear upon casting.;)
@Hunter44
I know Cryptborn Horror has "winmore" and "gimmick" written all over it, as well as "bulk rare", but if I want a turn 3 card that says, "Sweep or scoop", this card is it.
Yes, it really depends on coming out turn 3/4 when you have enough damage on the field to put them in a bad place, but it also basically makes the following drops on their turn rather meaningless:
Searing Spear
Thragtusk
Restoration Angel
Mizzium Mortars
Lingering Souls or any desperation chump blockers
It also forces decks to spend removal on that one card instead of the rest of what you have, meaning that unless they can sweep you, you are doing at least the damage you did last turn.
Good: turn 3, before combat and damage, 3/3 Experiment One or 2/2 Rakdos Cackler, 1 Burning-Tree Emissary, 1 3/3 Pig or Mogg. After combat, it drops as a 2/2 to an 8/8 (2/2 is only if they have perfect removal and were on the play, otherwise it is a 5/5 to an 8/8.)
Near-perfect board:
At worst Searing Spear/Abrupt Decay into Tragic Slip (which means they skipped playing anything on turn 2), you only do 6, after having done 3 the turn before. You drop a 6/6 with trample on turn 3, they drop a Loxodon Smiter or flash in Resto Angel. Let's assume you do not have a haste 3-4 drop. If they block a BTE, they take 10 and are at 1 and can hope to find a way to not die to trample next turn with a blocker still up. If they block the Horror, they go to 2, but don't have a blocker and leave us with 4 attackers. The only really decent out for a turn is Thragtusk, which brings them back to 6, with only two blockers and we have 12 damage on tap, 6 of which has trample. If I had any kind of haste creature, however, it was already game turn 4, and since we run at least 11 haste creatures that drop on with 4cmc or less, that is a reasonable possibility. Either way, they die on our swing.
Now if that was Hellrider, they block Hellrider after taking 9, putting them at 2, but Hellrider is dead. Your board now dies to Bonfire of the Damned for 2 on turn 5 or Rolling Temblor or Thragtusk (Junk, Unburial from the Graveyard) puts the game out of range by bringing them to 7 with a blocker they can't go over and only three attackers, which means you need to top-deck a haster or Rampager, otherwise you only take them to 3 with 2 creatures left and the ability to only do 2 next turn. And the game is dragging on, increasing their chance of hitting another Thrag or some other shenanigans.
If you compare the match going down my impromptu scale each time, Hellrider does not really catch up unless Horror comes out as a 4/4 or worse on turn 3 from a Mediocre keep, in which case, we ought to ask exactly why we kept a hand with 4 lands, 1 1-drop, 1 2-drop, and a Cryptborn Horror or they have the nut removal in hand an no other action. Our deck is usually dead to the latter anyway, and as such, I find that Horror is frequently coming down towards the high end of the damage, rather than the low end.
My results so far:
The Good
- It does as much and often more damage turn 4 than Hellrider, the other best choice for the spot. Trample matters. Without it, Horror would be an auto-skip.
- It survives better in combat, meaning it remains a threat on turns 5 and 6 even if blocked.
- Horror is a closer. Dropping this on turn 3 as a 6/6 or better leads to scoops. It demands an answer.
- It sees the board with far greater reliability than Hellrider because of its being 3cmc and 1[R/B][R/B].
- This card scales with Ghor-Clan Rampager bloodrush. It can drop at any point in the game as a 6/6 or larger off a single creature attack and a bloodrush, making it a mid-game finisher even if they have creeped up to 5-10 life.
- Turn 4 attack, I have 3-4 mana up to spend on a hasty or Ghor-Clan Rampager, ensuring more damage, unlike Hellrider, which telegraphs all I can do that turn.
The Bad
- It plain stinks as a top-deck when you have no creatures and it needs a Good hand or better on the draw.
- Hellrider is singularly better on an open board, but usually we are dead on an open board, so...
- Horror dies to Abrupt Decay no matter how big it gets.
- It doesn't have Haste.
- Running more than 2 is not good, meaning that you find it less than you would like. This somewhat mitigates the mana advantage, but only a little.
I like the board presence it presents although I think on T3 expecting it to be about a 4/4 Trampler would be pretty average. Which isn't terrible. For the card to be crazy good your opener needs to having Burning-Tree or Experiment One if it has neither it won't be good til later.. It doesn't take having some bad hand with 4 lands. It just takes having Cackler at one, and a bunch of Boars, Mangers, or Flunkies and it.. Perfectly reasonable draw just nothing crazy. Even a single Burning Tree and they have a blocker puts you around that range.
Mind you the fact that it can be a real late threat in a deck with a lower land count so that curving to 3 is reasonable gives it a lot more worth. Even if you can't play til T5 and you are stuck at 3 lands and suddenly you have a 6/6 Trample. I definitely had my eye on that card when I picked up Desecration Demon. My list can't support it but I was thinking in the one drop list it might just be good enough.
The thing is if you get the Experiment/Burning Tree draw you probably don't need Hellrider to close out that game any more than you need Horror. Horror growing Experiment is nice mind you. Now you have 2 sizeable threats. I think this is largely why a lot of lists didn't bother with Hellrider either initially. You almost need more Aristocrat but Thundermaw at 5 is greedy without more adjustment. Now that Reckoner has calmed down a bit Hellrider is acceptable again and perhaps better than Cackler but pulling Cackler also makes Hellrider worse unless you replace it with something else good early game. In that sense I think Cryptborn horror seems reasonable without drastically changing the decks makeup.
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Thanks for the inputs guys but it seems I need to have 4 Crytborn Horrors temporarily to test it out.
Anyway I've been reading the top player's articles in SCG and still, reanimator is the deck to beat. They've been also tweaking a bant hexproof/aggro against it, and they also tweak their own reanimators to beat other reanimators..
As for me my take on it will be still considering a haste-destroy strategy. I want to have a lower curve though so Im on tweaking stage.
Anyway I'm still playing the conventional Jund Aggro sometimes, I have attached something fun to see, I surely know you've got turns like this as well
Update: Both golgari charm and rakdos charm works vs reanimator, with them playing so much dorks, golgari charm sweeps them off.
Update 2: Golgari charm can also surprise reckoners in aristocrat decks if their purpose is to let his reckoner die to kill another creature of yours, when his ability is on stack targeting your another creature, cast golgari charm for regen. He traded off 2 cards but at least you saved one of your creatures. And not only that its a sweeper against their lingering souls tokens.
Came in 2nd with another 3-1 at Thursday Night Magic. Played the list I posted on the last page. Opted out of the Silverheart and kept the 4th Thundermaw. The list did it's job. I beat UB Delver, The Aristocrats, and UWR, and lost to BGW Zombies. The Zombie list had too much incremental damage and removal and I couldn't quite race game 3. It was basically the Aristocrats deck without Falkenrath but with Geralf's Messager, and Gravecrawler instead. The green I guess was for sideboard options/abrupt decays. I tried to get the Deathrite online but it never stuck. I would have just loved a Pillar any of the games. Geralf Messenger sacs to Cartel Aristocrat were tricky and he had Blood Artist too with Lingering Souls. Without lifegain it was pretty hard to race.
But on the positive side my UWR matchup was much better with Deathrite. I lost game 1(2 Lands for 6 turns, and drew all my Flinthoof Boars and ended up walking into Overloaded Mortars), and went on to win game 2 and 3. The 2nd game was grueling where I slowly ground down his life and resources. The 3rd game he Augured into Supreme Verdict on turn 4 and I had a Slaughter games in hand(he had 3 in the deck), which allowed my onboard Deathrite and Vampire Nighthawk to push him in a range where back to back Falkenraths(and Discard Ghor Clan) won the game. Domri was excellent both games 2 and 3. Moving to side in more creatures definitely paid off in the sideboard plan. Deathrite was absolutely the right choice.
The biggest thing that has struck me playing the deck is that it has been pretty consistent and powerful. Like I lost every die roll yesterday and it didn't really matter. I have moneyed the last 4 weeks in a row 1st, 2nd, 1st, and 2nd. The funny thing is I haven't nut drawed with multiple Burning Tree, Boar in maybe more than 1 or 2 of those games (17 rounds) Or even Gyre Sage, Burning Tree, Falkenrath. Yet I've continued to win. Someone laughed when my T2 was Burning Tree pass one game. And it happens a lot more than I'd like I suppose but ultimately it doesn't matter. Mid game I draw a Burning Tree or get it off Domri, and suddenly go Burning-Tree Falkenrath, or Burning-Tree Domri and it can drastically change board state around. The deck has given me a lot of play which I'm not used to in such an aggressive strategy. It's not just the midrange go big options, but the range that Domri adds and access to the best removal/answers in standard lets the deck play any game from like Midrange Jund removal game or Kibler Ooze board attrition game on top of getting those aggro endless haster draws. I like the fact that the cards can be used in so many ways.
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Looking at the Nicholas Werner list which I will be playing next week after all the stuff I ordered for it arrives, I wonder if Tragic slip would be better than the Ultimate Price in the deck and SB? Anyone have any feedback on that?
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I don't fear the man who has played 10,000 decks once. I fear the man who played one deck 10,000 times.
Came in 2nd with another 3-1 at Thursday Night Magic. Played the list I posted on the last page. Opted out of the Silverheart and kept the 4th Thundermaw. The list did it's job. I beat UB Delver, The Aristocrats, and UWR, and lost to BGW Zombies. The Zombie list had too much incremental damage and removal and I couldn't quite race game 3. It was basically the Aristocrats deck without Falkenrath but with Geralf's Messager, and Gravecrawler instead. The green I guess was for sideboard options/abrupt decays. I tried to get the Deathrite online but it never stuck. I would have just loved a Pillar any of the games. Geralf Messenger sacs to Cartel Aristocrat were tricky and he had Blood Artist too with Lingering Souls. Without lifegain it was pretty hard to race.
But on the positive side my UWR matchup was much better with Deathrite. I lost game 1(2 Lands for 6 turns, and drew all my Flinthoof Boars and ended up walking into Overloaded Mortars), and went on to win game 2 and 3. The 2nd game was grueling where I slowly ground down his life and resources. The 3rd game he Augured into Supreme Verdict on turn 4 and I had a Slaughter games in hand(he had 3 in the deck), which allowed my onboard Deathrite and Vampire Nighthawk to push him in a range where back to back Falkenraths(and Discard Ghor Clan) won the game. Domri was excellent both games 2 and 3. Moving to side in more creatures definitely paid off in the sideboard plan. Deathrite was absolutely the right choice.
The biggest thing that has struck me playing the deck is that it has been pretty consistent and powerful. Like I lost every die roll yesterday and it didn't really matter. I have moneyed the last 4 weeks in a row 1st, 2nd, 1st, and 2nd. The funny thing is I haven't nut drawed with multiple Burning Tree, Boar in maybe more than 1 or 2 of those games (17 rounds) Or even Gyre Sage, Burning Tree, Falkenrath. Yet I've continued to win. Someone laughed when my T2 was Burning Tree pass one game. And it happens a lot more than I'd like I suppose but ultimately it doesn't matter. Mid game I draw a Burning Tree or get it off Domri, and suddenly go Burning-Tree Falkenrath, or Burning-Tree Domri and it can drastically change board state around. The deck has given me a lot of play which I'm not used to in such an aggressive strategy. It's not just the midrange go big options, but the range that Domri adds and access to the best removal/answers in standard lets the deck play any game from like Midrange Jund removal game or Kibler Ooze board attrition game on top of getting those aggro endless haster draws. I like the fact that the cards can be used in so many ways.
Glad to hear you're doing pretty good in your brew pal, I'm also trying to squeeze in desecration demon but I havent really played it that well. Anyway keep up the good work and still consider plans vs Junk reanimator which seems to be getting a lot of fuzz lately. During the video discussions of top players in SCG all they say is reanimator is the deck to beat right now, speaking of that they also mentioned Ground Seal is a good sb card to play right now you may want to try it for better results in your deck.
Looking at the Nicholas Werner list which I will be playing next week after all the stuff I ordered for it arrives, I wonder if Tragic slip would be better than the Ultimate Price in the deck and SB? Anyone have any feedback on that?
If reanimator's a big problem yeah, ultimate price kills almost all threats, instant speed. Restoration angel, angel of serenity, craterhoof behemoth, thragtusk and tokens, somberwalds,..other matchups it can kill are hellkites and desecration demons. Better to use it both though, because tragic slip is the sole card I can think of to dispose Obzedat. DevourFlesh/Tribute to hunger isnt much effective anymore due to all those annoying tokens always supporting Obzedat sideboard strategies against Jund Aggro.
Glad to hear you're doing pretty good in your brew pal, I'm also trying to squeeze in desecration demon but I havent really played it that well. Anyway keep up the good work and still consider plans vs Junk reanimator which seems to be getting a lot of fuzz lately. During the video discussions of top players in SCG all they say is reanimator is the deck to beat right now, speaking of that they also mentioned Ground Seal is a good sb card to play right now you may want to try it for better results in your deck.
Yeah I'm not trying to draw any focus into Demon. I think that is one of the weaker parts of my deck. Especially since it creates a weird tension with Ghor Clan. You rarely want Ghor Clan to be a 4 drop so when you get a good mix of 2 and 3 drops it's pretty good. However I sometimes get 3 Lands, Gyre Sage, Ghor Clan, Demon, Thundermaw. In this case Ghor Clan probably is still a 2 drop (but not castable til turn 5) and I'm stuck with a hand of all 4's and 5's from a threat perspective. In this case I would actually want Demon to be a 3 drop even though I'm still not going to cast Ghor Clan as a 4 most likely. It's the one place that Ghor Clan is worse than a removal spell.. The same hand with a removal spell would be passable. On the other hand, when you get lands and Flinthoofs, having that many more power house cards to draw into is nice. When I was choosing Demon, Splinterfright was on the list since it usually is a decent threat mid game. I looked at Cryptborn Horror but it didn't solve the hand above in my list. Gyre Sage or Burning Tree makes you want to play a lot of 2's and 3's. But they don't match up as well against the 3's in white decks.
For me the key piece is being able to play 4 Falkenrath and 4 Thundermaw. That's what I'm doing more than anything. My game 1 against Reanimator is alright. I haven't gotten to play it locally since only 2 people play it locally and as I said before my local metagame has an aggro tilt. There is an over representation of all in white decks. Hexblade, and random lists with Silverblade paladins and Sublime Archangels (like Aristocrats with Silverblade), GW Aggro. It's a very hostile environment to Reanimator. Even when one of the better players piloted it this week it was a 2-2. The only Thragtusk deck that ever wins is Jund since it plays I high level of spot removal.
Anyway, game 1 on the play is not bad. On the draw is harder. Game 2 gets a little better though I think with Slaughter games, Deathrite and Bonfire. I tried Ground Seal for a while but it was only really decent there (it was ok against UWR). I don't think a more aggressive deck can really main deck it the way Reid Duke's Jund does. We have better sideboard options.
EDIT: I actually like Deathrite a lot in that matchup. And I side into Bonfire of the Damned using Deathrite as additional mana dorks on top of the Sages really helps to race. I like Silverheart too in the matchup. I wonder if Deathrite main as a 2 of in place of my Demons is the right move. Demon in the board seems a lot worse, so I can put Silverheart there probably. If Deathrite is good enough to main deck I can finally get rid of the Demon. Remember I don't particular like Demon but it has filled a need for flexibility out of my creatures to keep my creature count high. Maybe something like this:
I like Werner's list. I wish I didn't feel a need for Ultimate Price, but it does hit so much. The question for me then is what do we do with the removal package?
Options in the current meta:
1cmc Tragic Slip, instant, -1/-1 or -13/-13, great vs mana dorks, Ghost Grandpa, lots of things post-combat but only kills big threats after morbid kicks in, which can be too late.
Pillar of Flame, sorcery, 2 damage. So-so for us, probably required for straight RG aggro.
2cmc Abrupt Decay[/CARD], GB, instant, great vs. Reckoner and control (Blind Obedience), and vs. most aggro since it hits almost any aggro threat. NOT great vs. Mid-Range decks except for mana dorks, and strictly worse than Tragic Slip vs. mana dorks.
Searing Spear, R1, instant, 3 damage. Probably a staple of this deck regardless of whatever else we use because it can end games with face damage.
Dreadbore[/CARD], RB, sorcery speed. Best "Kill creatures that are can be killed on our turn" spell because it can kill any creature, plus it hits Planeswalkers, but those are not a significant problem at the moment except in some Jund Mid and Esper variations. Probably sideboard now, not maindeck. Definitely the best removal vs. Jund because we have to kill Olivia ASAP.
Ultimate Price, 1B, instance, kills any mono-color. Seems like the best removal vs. Junk, hits everything they play we worry about, at a good cost, at instant speed. Also great vs. Restoration Angel and other core UWR creatures.
Golgari Charm, GB, Instant. Might be better than Abrupt Decay in an environment where you want to kill 1 or more early mana dorks (-1/-1), spirit tokens obviously setting up for Craterhoof Behemoth next turn, and destroy enchantments like the highly annoying Assemble the Legions.
Given the meta, I'm changing my removal package to the following for testing (out of town, so I won't get to test this weekend)
Main
2 Tragic Slip
2 Ultimate Price
3 Searing Spear
Sideboard
2 Dreadbore
2 Golgari Charm
For the moment I am going to try without Abrupt Decay, I think dealing with Junk with maximum efficiency is the priority.
Thoughts?
I also feel like Experiment Jund is really not being accounted for right now, despite a good season and showings, which feels ok for us since we are one of the most flexible decks.
If you can avoid Boros Reckoner I think it's reasonable. Otherwise Werner's List really can't get through it. And I think 4 reasonable main deck solutions is where to be there and up to 6 post board.
Luckily Reckoner is on the down turn. Decks that can race Reanimator are incredibly susceptible to Spear and Ultimate Price (outside of certain Geist of St Traft/Invisible Stalker deck draws). I like slip a lot against Reanimator and Blitz but I'm not sure it's versatile enough everywhere. It's too bad double black is hard in most lists (only 12 black vs my 15) because Victim of Night out of the board is pretty good against everything but Zombies (which isn't popular) and big Jund.
The thing is if Rest in Peace Midrange manages to conquer Reanimator, Reckoner will be back. This week or probably last week I would have hedged my removal the way you are suggesting, but I expect with Reanimator being target number 1 we are going to see a lot more Rest in Peace midrange, Hexblade decks, and even certain types of aggro if Jund Mid has resorted to main decking do nothing cards like Ground Seal. I'm not saying that's bad but it's a bit like how decks during Alara/Zen could get away with main decking Spreading Seas because it was so good against Jund. The key difference is it is a lot easier to hate out decks on the side of the metagame than in the center.
The biggest thing is I think there is too much living in fear of reanimator from an aggressive standpoint. For us doing something better or faster is more important than packing the hate. I think removal wise against Reanimator having cheap removal to kill the dork is essential. Beyond that removing any of their big players has really no effect. The tempo loss of losing your board to Angel of Serenity is backbreaking. It isn't really a winning proposition to try to grind them out at all. If you have them low you can grind them a couple turns and might get there but it's not something you can count on. It sucks that Centaur Healer/Thragtusk can be such a slow down though. What the deck really needs is more room to race than shore up narrow answer cards that can only be good in one matchup really. The real key is if there is a way to set up the board state where you can do a stupid amount of damage one turn. It's a very GW mindset but it's why those decks have never had issues with Reanimator. Then again I wonder if something like Zealous Conscripts could do enough. Thundermaw is close. But they can sometimes stabilize in the single digits if you don't have the 2nd one to throw down.
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@ryansolid
Agreed in general. I especially think that our goal is to do a lot of damage quickly, but have some gas in case they happen to land some means of survival. If they nut draw turn 4 Hoof win, they do so. I think that is something we can only marginally prepare for, mostly thanks to Ultimate Price and tragic Slip game 1.
I am also wondering if Zealous Conscripts or Mark of Mutiny come back in. Most of the time, Mark of Mutiny Turn 4 will take the singleton blocker and we win. Plus 2R seems better than Traitorous and we are using it to finish, so giving it +1/+1 is good. However, what do we take out?
I particularly agree that with everyone brewing to take down Junk, I think we will see a meta shift soon. Since I am not playing this week, I'm just watching the results at events and theory crafting.
I wonder if it gets to a point it's hedging too much especially with more cards in the board. But I definitely see how Deathrite is good enough to main deck. Appetite is more interesting.
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I'm pleased to see how well Jund Aggro did overall in Orlando. Two in the top 16, more than that Top 32, with a lot of variety.
RE: Removal
I'm going main Ultimate Price and Tragic Slip only because I want instant speed removal, despite the lack of synergy with Free Bear. Despite the better color synergy, Mizzium Mortars just leaves me cold.
I'm keeping Dreadbore in the side because Esper Control and Jund continue to do well. Killing Planeswalkers still matters.
Right now, I feel like Abrupt Decay has the least value. I could be wrong.
I still feel that the ability to move into the mid-range deck is a strong option, but I could see a case for -2 Wolfir, -2 Olivia, -2 Rakdos Charm for +2 Thundermaw Hellkite and +1 Mountain, +3 Deathrite Shaman. That may be two land in the side, but I have to go from 22 to 24 to make Hellkite more reliably to cast.
I really like some ideas from the deck at SCGO. I think I would prefer 4 Aristocrat to 1 Hellrider, I would think this allows more trouble for our opponent. Which do yall prefer?
I tend to agree. I don't like all the Hellriders with the potential to be blocked, but I see the incentive since it is capable of the same sort of swinging damage that Thundermaw can. I think that deck might have been too heavy on the answers. I mean Deathrite is good, but won't let you win through a bunch of hard cast Thragtusks etc. Similarly Appetite only deals with threat light hands.
What always catches my attention are the pure GR decks that do good. More often than not adding black comes at minimal cost. Arlie Silver's list is incredibly greedy but it definitely has me thinking. As long as the go big decks aren't playing a ton of red or have to focus elsewhere some of the aggressive cards have the potential to really race. I wouldn't play 19 land deck like that but I wonder if there are other reasonable ways to approach the early curve of Jund Aggro. As gimmicky as it is I really want to try Firefist Striker with threaten effects at the top of the curve supported by Abrupt Decay. If a decks plan is just to put a Reckoner/Centaur Healer/Thragtusk in your way there isn't much way for them to feasibly stabilize with bodies. I find it interesting when a deck that aggro still opts for Domri main. I wonder how much range can be given to a deck like that while keeping that amount of pressure. I mean Hellrider looks a lot better when you go Experiment, Burning-Tree, Firefist, Dreg Mangler, Hellrider. That's a lot of cards but there are quite a few combinations like that.
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I really like some ideas from the deck at SCGO. I think I would prefer 4 Aristocrat to 1 Hellrider, I would think this allows more trouble for our opponent. Which do yall prefer?
It depends on the matchup, but I prefer Falkenrath more. Flying is good as always in the current meta.
I wonder if it gets to a point it's hedging too much especially with more cards in the board. But I definitely see how Deathrite is good enough to main deck. Appetite is more interesting.
This looks like the build I posted before except for the deathrites in main. Hellrider's good in resilient buddies like Experiment One and Geist, fully knew the synergy during tests. It is seldom that Hellriders dropping in and attacking alone. His choice of maindeck Appetite and Deathrites was designed probably because of the high reanimator meta in Orlando.
I tend to agree. I don't like all the Hellriders with the potential to be blocked, but I see the incentive since it is capable of the same sort of swinging damage that Thundermaw can. I think that deck might have been too heavy on the answers. I mean Deathrite is good, but won't let you win through a bunch of hard cast Thragtusks etc. Similarly Appetite only deals with threat light hands.
What always catches my attention are the pure GR decks that do good. More often than not adding black comes at minimal cost. Arlie Silver's list is incredibly greedy but it definitely has me thinking. As long as the go big decks aren't playing a ton of red or have to focus elsewhere some of the aggressive cards have the potential to really race. I wouldn't play 19 land deck like that but I wonder if there are other reasonable ways to approach the early curve of Jund Aggro. As gimmicky as it is I really want to try Firefist Striker with threaten effects at the top of the curve supported by Abrupt Decay. If a decks plan is just to put a Reckoner/Centaur Healer/Thragtusk in your way there isn't much way for them to feasibly stabilize with bodies. I find it interesting when a deck that aggro still opts for Domri main. I wonder how much range can be given to a deck like that while keeping that amount of pressure. I mean Hellrider looks a lot better when you go Experiment, Burning-Tree, Firefist, Dreg Mangler, Hellrider. That's a lot of cards but there are quite a few combinations like that.
Its hard to mix and it gets inconsistent.. so for me I categorized these as 2 setup types, the BTE-Flunkies setup and the Hellrider-Geist setup.
I like the Deathrites a lot. I've been testing reanimator tons the last couple days and I think Thundermaw Hellkite is about the best card in the matchup. I even tried Zealous Conscripts etc.. I really like Deathrite main.. the difficulty comes in that you really want to be able to do T3 Falkenrath to T4 Thundermaw. I find Deathrites mana ability the most important but sometimes Reanimator won't have the hand that plays into it.
I tried Olivia for a while which was very good but also a turn too slow. T5 is too slow to really get stuff happening and Centaur Healer can stone wall early aggression. Killing their dorks is huge. I think Golgari Charm or Bonfire of the Damned is a better approach than Appetite for Destruction. They have way too many hands with multiple good targets to take and they don't have to waste their mana when you force discard. If you can throttle their mana and you have Hellkite it doesn't matter now many Thragtusks in a row they play.
The difficulty is no removal is particularly good. There is no way to run enough removal that exiles. Sever needs too much mana. Like you want a couple Spears to clear early blocks but while a perfect timed slip will take out the first dork, they don't need the ramp til T4, and likely have the 2nd. It's especially awkward if you didn't play a threat to do so (luckily most of ours have haste). So actually Bonfire/Golgari is better.
Threaten effects are ok at best. The problem is outside of Conscripts unless you prevented the lifegain from Thragtusk, you are just swinging back the same. They have to be already in the single digits for this to work. This happens enough of the games when you play first but it is almost completely dead afterwards. I don't really want a plan the relies on them playing any of their much more powerful spells.
So to beat them you almost have to play bigger threats and a bit of ramp yourself in some hands. Turn them into a bad midrange deck. Basically do what GW does to them. You can continue to try to beat face low curve but I couldn't find the right combination to do it consistently enough. You sometimes get too much removal that doesn't matter against their value. Other times not enough and they just stonewall you.
Hellrider is alright. I really dislike it as more than a 2 of mind you after testing some more. You basically just have to pray you dodge Reckoner.. and even against Centaur Healer versions of Reanimator it's a little weak. Like you can't slam Hellrider if they have a dork, Healer opening, and have Resto Angel up. But I'd be ok with Falkenrath there probably. Although I do like how much damage it can do in the right situations. Almost like holding an Overrun. As Hunter mentioned it's much better with Strangleroot Geist, but Geist sort of has all the same issues with walls without Rancor.
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Does anyone else have trouble with lingering souls? Should we be putting elecktrickery in the SB? Dega-midrange, esper(sorin) and junk seem to be able to stall hard enough against me.
This is the deck I am working on for SCG Open in Atlanta this weekend. I am taking some inspiration for the list that did well last weekend in Orlando. With it being the invitational and all, I expect there to be just as much a showing on Junk Reanimator.
Does anyone else have trouble with lingering souls? Should we be putting elecktrickery in the SB? Dega-midrange, esper(sorin) and junk seem to be able to stall hard enough against me.
This is the deck I am working on for SCG Open in Atlanta this weekend. I am taking some inspiration for the list that did well last weekend in Orlando. With it being the invitational and all, I expect there to be just as much a showing on Junk Reanimator.
I've been doing a lot of play testing vs. Junk Reanimator, the newer builds. I find we can run under them frequently game 1. The real issue is surviving the next two games.
Mr. Negative says,
I was less than excited by Skullcrack. Too often, it just wasn't that great.
I have also replaced Hellrider with Cryptborn Horror. I have found it far more reliable to get to the field turn 3 after I swing, and the worst I have had it do is come in as another 3/3, with trample. That was only against much faster decks than Reanimator.
I'm still fond of Wolfir Silverheart. He soaks up a lot of damage and punishes them for not having other things to do.
I don't like DRS instead of Cackler. It helps vs. Reanimator games 2 and 3, but it hurts us game 1 vs. every other deck and 2-of is only so-so Game 1.
But Mr. Positive replies,
I can see upping the land count by at least 1, though if you are going 4 Hellrider, 2 Thundermaw Hellkite, I can see why you want 24, but those 6 creatures seem greedy to me because that means that we have 8 4cmc and 2 5cmc creatures out of 28. That is going to seriously hurt our early explosiveness.
I also like Tragic Slip in this meta, even at the expense of Dreadbore main. -1/-1 is good right now and -13/-13 is great.
I have more testing to do, but I'm trying to keep the speed, and the flexibility, without over-compensating for Reanimator.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Shadowborn Demon - 3BB
Flying
When ~ enters the battlefield, destroy target non-Demon creature.
When ~ enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you have 6 creatures in your graveyard.
5/6
It looks really good, but his drawback might actually be a drawback.
My deviantART; if you're interested in alters, PM me!
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Flinthoof Boar
3 Dreg Mangler
2 Hellrider
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Searing Spear
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Tragic Slip
1 Dreadbore
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
2 Woodland Cemetery
3 Dragonskull Summit
2 Forest
2 Golgari Charm
1 Slaughter Game
2 Appetite for Brains
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Skullcrack
1 Domri Rade
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Rolling Temblor
My meta game is Naya Human, UWR, Reanimator (Human and Junk)
Is Volcanic Strength really that good? I hate to get 1 for 2.
Thanks! Wonderful, trying it out. A must need for turn 2 geist
I see, well based from my testing it didnt hurt much but you are right, maybe Ill remove 2 hellriders for greed reasons. I still need hellkite =)
Please tell me how you use cryptborn horror effectively. I am curious although its cute to think that itll drop a 5/5 most of the time based from your list
This may become a dead card if you're against aggro. Not quite sure yet if this can work against decks with heavy removal like Jund Midrange =)
Vs Naya humans and aristocrats, it seems to work well. Remember Naya humans have overflowing creatures to attack and block when needed, so an unblockable threat helps Make sure you equip it to a 3/3 though to make it 5/5. Just make sure you're not prone to searing spear upon casting.;)
Monogreen 2007 | Jund Aggro MTGO 2013
I know Cryptborn Horror has "winmore" and "gimmick" written all over it, as well as "bulk rare", but if I want a turn 3 card that says, "Sweep or scoop", this card is it.
Yes, it really depends on coming out turn 3/4 when you have enough damage on the field to put them in a bad place, but it also basically makes the following drops on their turn rather meaningless:
Searing Spear
Thragtusk
Restoration Angel
Mizzium Mortars
Lingering Souls or any desperation chump blockers
It also forces decks to spend removal on that one card instead of the rest of what you have, meaning that unless they can sweep you, you are doing at least the damage you did last turn.
I think about it in board state terms:
Near-Perfect: turn 3, before combat and damage, 3/3 Experiment One, 3 Burning-Tree Emissary, 1 Flinthoof Boar or Mogg Flunkie. After combat, it drops as a 6/6 to a 12/12.
Optimal: turn 3, before combat and damage, 3/3 Experiment One, 2 Burning-Tree Emissary, 1 Flinthoof Boar or Mogg Flunkie. After combat, it drops as a 4/4 to a 10/10.
Good: turn 3, before combat and damage, 3/3 Experiment One or 2/2 Rakdos Cackler, 1 Burning-Tree Emissary, 1 3/3 Pig or Mogg. After combat, it drops as a 2/2 to an 8/8 (2/2 is only if they have perfect removal and were on the play, otherwise it is a 5/5 to an 8/8.)
Mediocre: turn 3, before combat and damage, 2/2 Experiment One or Rakdos Cackler, 1 Burning-Tree Emissary. Yeah, pretty bad. At best, a 4/4.
Near-perfect board:
At worst Searing Spear/Abrupt Decay into Tragic Slip (which means they skipped playing anything on turn 2), you only do 6, after having done 3 the turn before. You drop a 6/6 with trample on turn 3, they drop a Loxodon Smiter or flash in Resto Angel. Let's assume you do not have a haste 3-4 drop. If they block a BTE, they take 10 and are at 1 and can hope to find a way to not die to trample next turn with a blocker still up. If they block the Horror, they go to 2, but don't have a blocker and leave us with 4 attackers. The only really decent out for a turn is Thragtusk, which brings them back to 6, with only two blockers and we have 12 damage on tap, 6 of which has trample. If I had any kind of haste creature, however, it was already game turn 4, and since we run at least 11 haste creatures that drop on with 4cmc or less, that is a reasonable possibility. Either way, they die on our swing.
Now if that was Hellrider, they block Hellrider after taking 9, putting them at 2, but Hellrider is dead. Your board now dies to Bonfire of the Damned for 2 on turn 5 or Rolling Temblor or Thragtusk (Junk, Unburial from the Graveyard) puts the game out of range by bringing them to 7 with a blocker they can't go over and only three attackers, which means you need to top-deck a haster or Rampager, otherwise you only take them to 3 with 2 creatures left and the ability to only do 2 next turn. And the game is dragging on, increasing their chance of hitting another Thrag or some other shenanigans.
If you compare the match going down my impromptu scale each time, Hellrider does not really catch up unless Horror comes out as a 4/4 or worse on turn 3 from a Mediocre keep, in which case, we ought to ask exactly why we kept a hand with 4 lands, 1 1-drop, 1 2-drop, and a Cryptborn Horror or they have the nut removal in hand an no other action. Our deck is usually dead to the latter anyway, and as such, I find that Horror is frequently coming down towards the high end of the damage, rather than the low end.
My results so far:
The Good
- It does as much and often more damage turn 4 than Hellrider, the other best choice for the spot. Trample matters. Without it, Horror would be an auto-skip.
- It survives better in combat, meaning it remains a threat on turns 5 and 6 even if blocked.
- Horror is a closer. Dropping this on turn 3 as a 6/6 or better leads to scoops. It demands an answer.
- It sees the board with far greater reliability than Hellrider because of its being 3cmc and 1[R/B][R/B].
- This card scales with Ghor-Clan Rampager bloodrush. It can drop at any point in the game as a 6/6 or larger off a single creature attack and a bloodrush, making it a mid-game finisher even if they have creeped up to 5-10 life.
- Turn 4 attack, I have 3-4 mana up to spend on a hasty or Ghor-Clan Rampager, ensuring more damage, unlike Hellrider, which telegraphs all I can do that turn.
The Bad
- It plain stinks as a top-deck when you have no creatures and it needs a Good hand or better on the draw.
- Hellrider is singularly better on an open board, but usually we are dead on an open board, so...
- Horror dies to Abrupt Decay no matter how big it gets.
- It doesn't have Haste.
- Running more than 2 is not good, meaning that you find it less than you would like. This somewhat mitigates the mana advantage, but only a little.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Mind you the fact that it can be a real late threat in a deck with a lower land count so that curving to 3 is reasonable gives it a lot more worth. Even if you can't play til T5 and you are stuck at 3 lands and suddenly you have a 6/6 Trample. I definitely had my eye on that card when I picked up Desecration Demon. My list can't support it but I was thinking in the one drop list it might just be good enough.
The thing is if you get the Experiment/Burning Tree draw you probably don't need Hellrider to close out that game any more than you need Horror. Horror growing Experiment is nice mind you. Now you have 2 sizeable threats. I think this is largely why a lot of lists didn't bother with Hellrider either initially. You almost need more Aristocrat but Thundermaw at 5 is greedy without more adjustment. Now that Reckoner has calmed down a bit Hellrider is acceptable again and perhaps better than Cackler but pulling Cackler also makes Hellrider worse unless you replace it with something else good early game. In that sense I think Cryptborn horror seems reasonable without drastically changing the decks makeup.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Anyway I've been reading the top player's articles in SCG and still, reanimator is the deck to beat. They've been also tweaking a bant hexproof/aggro against it, and they also tweak their own reanimators to beat other reanimators..
As for me my take on it will be still considering a haste-destroy strategy. I want to have a lower curve though so Im on tweaking stage.
Anyway I'm still playing the conventional Jund Aggro sometimes, I have attached something fun to see, I surely know you've got turns like this as well
Update: Both golgari charm and rakdos charm works vs reanimator, with them playing so much dorks, golgari charm sweeps them off.
Update 2: Golgari charm can also surprise reckoners in aristocrat decks if their purpose is to let his reckoner die to kill another creature of yours, when his ability is on stack targeting your another creature, cast golgari charm for regen. He traded off 2 cards but at least you saved one of your creatures. And not only that its a sweeper against their lingering souls tokens.
Monogreen 2007 | Jund Aggro MTGO 2013
But on the positive side my UWR matchup was much better with Deathrite. I lost game 1(2 Lands for 6 turns, and drew all my Flinthoof Boars and ended up walking into Overloaded Mortars), and went on to win game 2 and 3. The 2nd game was grueling where I slowly ground down his life and resources. The 3rd game he Augured into Supreme Verdict on turn 4 and I had a Slaughter games in hand(he had 3 in the deck), which allowed my onboard Deathrite and Vampire Nighthawk to push him in a range where back to back Falkenraths(and Discard Ghor Clan) won the game. Domri was excellent both games 2 and 3. Moving to side in more creatures definitely paid off in the sideboard plan. Deathrite was absolutely the right choice.
The biggest thing that has struck me playing the deck is that it has been pretty consistent and powerful. Like I lost every die roll yesterday and it didn't really matter. I have moneyed the last 4 weeks in a row 1st, 2nd, 1st, and 2nd. The funny thing is I haven't nut drawed with multiple Burning Tree, Boar in maybe more than 1 or 2 of those games (17 rounds) Or even Gyre Sage, Burning Tree, Falkenrath. Yet I've continued to win. Someone laughed when my T2 was Burning Tree pass one game. And it happens a lot more than I'd like I suppose but ultimately it doesn't matter. Mid game I draw a Burning Tree or get it off Domri, and suddenly go Burning-Tree Falkenrath, or Burning-Tree Domri and it can drastically change board state around. The deck has given me a lot of play which I'm not used to in such an aggressive strategy. It's not just the midrange go big options, but the range that Domri adds and access to the best removal/answers in standard lets the deck play any game from like Midrange Jund removal game or Kibler Ooze board attrition game on top of getting those aggro endless haster draws. I like the fact that the cards can be used in so many ways.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Glad to hear you're doing pretty good in your brew pal, I'm also trying to squeeze in desecration demon but I havent really played it that well. Anyway keep up the good work and still consider plans vs Junk reanimator which seems to be getting a lot of fuzz lately. During the video discussions of top players in SCG all they say is reanimator is the deck to beat right now, speaking of that they also mentioned Ground Seal is a good sb card to play right now you may want to try it for better results in your deck.
If reanimator's a big problem yeah, ultimate price kills almost all threats, instant speed. Restoration angel, angel of serenity, craterhoof behemoth, thragtusk and tokens, somberwalds,..other matchups it can kill are hellkites and desecration demons. Better to use it both though, because tragic slip is the sole card I can think of to dispose Obzedat. DevourFlesh/Tribute to hunger isnt much effective anymore due to all those annoying tokens always supporting Obzedat sideboard strategies against Jund Aggro.
Monogreen 2007 | Jund Aggro MTGO 2013
Beat the following decks:
Round 1- Esper Control
Round 2 - Naya Aggro(but not hyper)
Round 3- U/W/R Flash
Round 4 - G/B Ooze
Yeah I'm not trying to draw any focus into Demon. I think that is one of the weaker parts of my deck. Especially since it creates a weird tension with Ghor Clan. You rarely want Ghor Clan to be a 4 drop so when you get a good mix of 2 and 3 drops it's pretty good. However I sometimes get 3 Lands, Gyre Sage, Ghor Clan, Demon, Thundermaw. In this case Ghor Clan probably is still a 2 drop (but not castable til turn 5) and I'm stuck with a hand of all 4's and 5's from a threat perspective. In this case I would actually want Demon to be a 3 drop even though I'm still not going to cast Ghor Clan as a 4 most likely. It's the one place that Ghor Clan is worse than a removal spell.. The same hand with a removal spell would be passable. On the other hand, when you get lands and Flinthoofs, having that many more power house cards to draw into is nice. When I was choosing Demon, Splinterfright was on the list since it usually is a decent threat mid game. I looked at Cryptborn Horror but it didn't solve the hand above in my list. Gyre Sage or Burning Tree makes you want to play a lot of 2's and 3's. But they don't match up as well against the 3's in white decks.
For me the key piece is being able to play 4 Falkenrath and 4 Thundermaw. That's what I'm doing more than anything. My game 1 against Reanimator is alright. I haven't gotten to play it locally since only 2 people play it locally and as I said before my local metagame has an aggro tilt. There is an over representation of all in white decks. Hexblade, and random lists with Silverblade paladins and Sublime Archangels (like Aristocrats with Silverblade), GW Aggro. It's a very hostile environment to Reanimator. Even when one of the better players piloted it this week it was a 2-2. The only Thragtusk deck that ever wins is Jund since it plays I high level of spot removal.
Anyway, game 1 on the play is not bad. On the draw is harder. Game 2 gets a little better though I think with Slaughter games, Deathrite and Bonfire. I tried Ground Seal for a while but it was only really decent there (it was ok against UWR). I don't think a more aggressive deck can really main deck it the way Reid Duke's Jund does. We have better sideboard options.
EDIT: I actually like Deathrite a lot in that matchup. And I side into Bonfire of the Damned using Deathrite as additional mana dorks on top of the Sages really helps to race. I like Silverheart too in the matchup. I wonder if Deathrite main as a 2 of in place of my Demons is the right move. Demon in the board seems a lot worse, so I can put Silverheart there probably. If Deathrite is good enough to main deck I can finally get rid of the Demon. Remember I don't particular like Demon but it has filled a need for flexibility out of my creatures to keep my creature count high. Maybe something like this:
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
3 Rootbound Crag
3 Dragonskull Summit
4 Woodland Cemetary
2 Mountain
Creatures(28):
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Gyre Sage
4 Flinthoof Boar
3 Dreg Mangler
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Wolfir Silverheart
2 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Mizzium Mortars
3 Domri Rade
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Victim of Night
2 Bonfire of the Damned
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Rackdos' Return
2 Slaughter Games
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Wolfir Silverheart
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Options in the current meta:
1cmc
Tragic Slip, instant, -1/-1 or -13/-13, great vs mana dorks, Ghost Grandpa, lots of things post-combat but only kills big threats after morbid kicks in, which can be too late.
Pillar of Flame, sorcery, 2 damage. So-so for us, probably required for straight RG aggro.
2cmc
Abrupt Decay[/CARD], GB, instant, great vs. Reckoner and control (Blind Obedience), and vs. most aggro since it hits almost any aggro threat. NOT great vs. Mid-Range decks except for mana dorks, and strictly worse than Tragic Slip vs. mana dorks.
Searing Spear, R1, instant, 3 damage. Probably a staple of this deck regardless of whatever else we use because it can end games with face damage.
Dreadbore[/CARD], RB, sorcery speed. Best "Kill creatures that are can be killed on our turn" spell because it can kill any creature, plus it hits Planeswalkers, but those are not a significant problem at the moment except in some Jund Mid and Esper variations. Probably sideboard now, not maindeck. Definitely the best removal vs. Jund because we have to kill Olivia ASAP.
Ultimate Price, 1B, instance, kills any mono-color. Seems like the best removal vs. Junk, hits everything they play we worry about, at a good cost, at instant speed. Also great vs. Restoration Angel and other core UWR creatures.
Golgari Charm, GB, Instant. Might be better than Abrupt Decay in an environment where you want to kill 1 or more early mana dorks (-1/-1), spirit tokens obviously setting up for Craterhoof Behemoth next turn, and destroy enchantments like the highly annoying Assemble the Legions.
Given the meta, I'm changing my removal package to the following for testing (out of town, so I won't get to test this weekend)
Main
2 Tragic Slip
2 Ultimate Price
3 Searing Spear
Sideboard
2 Dreadbore
2 Golgari Charm
For the moment I am going to try without Abrupt Decay, I think dealing with Junk with maximum efficiency is the priority.
Thoughts?
I also feel like Experiment Jund is really not being accounted for right now, despite a good season and showings, which feels ok for us since we are one of the most flexible decks.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Luckily Reckoner is on the down turn. Decks that can race Reanimator are incredibly susceptible to Spear and Ultimate Price (outside of certain Geist of St Traft/Invisible Stalker deck draws). I like slip a lot against Reanimator and Blitz but I'm not sure it's versatile enough everywhere. It's too bad double black is hard in most lists (only 12 black vs my 15) because Victim of Night out of the board is pretty good against everything but Zombies (which isn't popular) and big Jund.
The thing is if Rest in Peace Midrange manages to conquer Reanimator, Reckoner will be back. This week or probably last week I would have hedged my removal the way you are suggesting, but I expect with Reanimator being target number 1 we are going to see a lot more Rest in Peace midrange, Hexblade decks, and even certain types of aggro if Jund Mid has resorted to main decking do nothing cards like Ground Seal. I'm not saying that's bad but it's a bit like how decks during Alara/Zen could get away with main decking Spreading Seas because it was so good against Jund. The key difference is it is a lot easier to hate out decks on the side of the metagame than in the center.
The biggest thing is I think there is too much living in fear of reanimator from an aggressive standpoint. For us doing something better or faster is more important than packing the hate. I think removal wise against Reanimator having cheap removal to kill the dork is essential. Beyond that removing any of their big players has really no effect. The tempo loss of losing your board to Angel of Serenity is backbreaking. It isn't really a winning proposition to try to grind them out at all. If you have them low you can grind them a couple turns and might get there but it's not something you can count on. It sucks that Centaur Healer/Thragtusk can be such a slow down though. What the deck really needs is more room to race than shore up narrow answer cards that can only be good in one matchup really. The real key is if there is a way to set up the board state where you can do a stupid amount of damage one turn. It's a very GW mindset but it's why those decks have never had issues with Reanimator. Then again I wonder if something like Zealous Conscripts could do enough. Thundermaw is close. But they can sometimes stabilize in the single digits if you don't have the 2nd one to throw down.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Agreed in general. I especially think that our goal is to do a lot of damage quickly, but have some gas in case they happen to land some means of survival. If they nut draw turn 4 Hoof win, they do so. I think that is something we can only marginally prepare for, mostly thanks to Ultimate Price and tragic Slip game 1.
I am also wondering if Zealous Conscripts or Mark of Mutiny come back in. Most of the time, Mark of Mutiny Turn 4 will take the singleton blocker and we win. Plus 2R seems better than Traitorous and we are using it to finish, so giving it +1/+1 is good. However, what do we take out?
I particularly agree that with everyone brewing to take down Junk, I think we will see a meta shift soon. Since I am not playing this week, I'm just watching the results at events and theory crafting.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Yeah Im thinking a lot about ultimate price as well.. not thinking maindeck though.
Ill be testing..
Main:
3 Searing Spear
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Mizzium Mortars (BTE setup), 2 Tragic Slip (Non-Bte)
Sideboard: Ultimate Price, temporarily removing dreadbore..
Monogreen 2007 | Jund Aggro MTGO 2013
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dreg Mangler
3 Experiment One
1 Falkenrath Aristocrat
3 Flinthoof Boar
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Hellrider
4 Strangleroot Geist
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
Lands (24)
3 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
2 Dragonskull Summit
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
2 Woodland Cemetery
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Searing Spear
1 Tragic Slip
2 Appetite for Brains
2 Stromkirk Noble
1 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Ground Seal
2 Volcanic Strength
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Skullcrack
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Dreadbore
I wonder if it gets to a point it's hedging too much especially with more cards in the board. But I definitely see how Deathrite is good enough to main deck. Appetite is more interesting.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I think Murder is very much needed against [CARD]Obzedat, Ghost Council
[/CARD]
RE: Removal
I'm going main Ultimate Price and Tragic Slip only because I want instant speed removal, despite the lack of synergy with Free Bear. Despite the better color synergy, Mizzium Mortars just leaves me cold.
I'm keeping Dreadbore in the side because Esper Control and Jund continue to do well. Killing Planeswalkers still matters.
Right now, I feel like Abrupt Decay has the least value. I could be wrong.
Sideboard:
I still feel that the ability to move into the mid-range deck is a strong option, but I could see a case for -2 Wolfir, -2 Olivia, -2 Rakdos Charm for +2 Thundermaw Hellkite and +1 Mountain, +3 Deathrite Shaman. That may be two land in the side, but I have to go from 22 to 24 to make Hellkite more reliably to cast.
Sideboard:
A little love for us as well here
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
What always catches my attention are the pure GR decks that do good. More often than not adding black comes at minimal cost. Arlie Silver's list is incredibly greedy but it definitely has me thinking. As long as the go big decks aren't playing a ton of red or have to focus elsewhere some of the aggressive cards have the potential to really race. I wouldn't play 19 land deck like that but I wonder if there are other reasonable ways to approach the early curve of Jund Aggro. As gimmicky as it is I really want to try Firefist Striker with threaten effects at the top of the curve supported by Abrupt Decay. If a decks plan is just to put a Reckoner/Centaur Healer/Thragtusk in your way there isn't much way for them to feasibly stabilize with bodies. I find it interesting when a deck that aggro still opts for Domri main. I wonder how much range can be given to a deck like that while keeping that amount of pressure. I mean Hellrider looks a lot better when you go Experiment, Burning-Tree, Firefist, Dreg Mangler, Hellrider. That's a lot of cards but there are quite a few combinations like that.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Yeah but on a curve like ours, this is heavy to cast...
It depends on the matchup, but I prefer Falkenrath more. Flying is good as always in the current meta.
This looks like the build I posted before except for the deathrites in main. Hellrider's good in resilient buddies like Experiment One and Geist, fully knew the synergy during tests. It is seldom that Hellriders dropping in and attacking alone. His choice of maindeck Appetite and Deathrites was designed probably because of the high reanimator meta in Orlando.
Its hard to mix and it gets inconsistent.. so for me I categorized these as 2 setup types, the BTE-Flunkies setup and the Hellrider-Geist setup.
Monogreen 2007 | Jund Aggro MTGO 2013
I tried Olivia for a while which was very good but also a turn too slow. T5 is too slow to really get stuff happening and Centaur Healer can stone wall early aggression. Killing their dorks is huge. I think Golgari Charm or Bonfire of the Damned is a better approach than Appetite for Destruction. They have way too many hands with multiple good targets to take and they don't have to waste their mana when you force discard. If you can throttle their mana and you have Hellkite it doesn't matter now many Thragtusks in a row they play.
The difficulty is no removal is particularly good. There is no way to run enough removal that exiles. Sever needs too much mana. Like you want a couple Spears to clear early blocks but while a perfect timed slip will take out the first dork, they don't need the ramp til T4, and likely have the 2nd. It's especially awkward if you didn't play a threat to do so (luckily most of ours have haste). So actually Bonfire/Golgari is better.
Threaten effects are ok at best. The problem is outside of Conscripts unless you prevented the lifegain from Thragtusk, you are just swinging back the same. They have to be already in the single digits for this to work. This happens enough of the games when you play first but it is almost completely dead afterwards. I don't really want a plan the relies on them playing any of their much more powerful spells.
So to beat them you almost have to play bigger threats and a bit of ramp yourself in some hands. Turn them into a bad midrange deck. Basically do what GW does to them. You can continue to try to beat face low curve but I couldn't find the right combination to do it consistently enough. You sometimes get too much removal that doesn't matter against their value. Other times not enough and they just stonewall you.
Hellrider is alright. I really dislike it as more than a 2 of mind you after testing some more. You basically just have to pray you dodge Reckoner.. and even against Centaur Healer versions of Reanimator it's a little weak. Like you can't slam Hellrider if they have a dork, Healer opening, and have Resto Angel up. But I'd be ok with Falkenrath there probably. Although I do like how much damage it can do in the right situations. Almost like holding an Overrun. As Hunter mentioned it's much better with Strangleroot Geist, but Geist sort of has all the same issues with walls without Rancor.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Experiment One
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Flinthoof Boar
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Ghor-Clan
1 Hellrider
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Tragic Slip
2 Appetite for Brains
4 Stomping Gound
4 Blood Crypt
4 OVergown Tomb
3 Rootbound Crag
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Woodland Cemetary
2 Mountain
2 Forest
~mana base might could use some work
This is the deck I am working on for SCG Open in Atlanta this weekend. I am taking some inspiration for the list that did well last weekend in Orlando. With it being the invitational and all, I expect there to be just as much a showing on Junk Reanimator.
What do you think?
I will replace one Searing Spear with Ultimate Price and add one more land. And where is the SB?