I use Domri Rade vs Esper Control (Draw tech) and Red-based aggro and blitz, Aside from the extra removal, its saves some of my life points as most of the players I've had games with tend to kill Domri Asap by combat if they didnt have searing spear.
Its good vs reanimator yeah, but we are kind of looking for a sideboard material that works well with some decks otherwise, for example, deathrite shaman is not only good vs reanimator, but with UWR Flash as well.
Good wins pal. Your list is just right except that you may want to cut off hellrider and go low curve. Too bad for the draws you had in your losses.. that kind of luck is worse in MTGO..
I posted earlier about Volcanic strength in aristocrats.. You'll see potential.. Vs Aggro you can just side in more removal. I also quite using Volanic strength vs aggro and instead Im putting it in against aristocrats.
Yeah in my case my friend and I made a b/w "aristocrat". The decks been updated since I worked on it but it features lingering souls instead of F.Aristocrat so no mountains I know that for sure. Anyway a guy borrowing it beat my face in on friday. Once he gets going with the thrull/cartel/blood artist and zombies on the table I'm dead in the water. If I swing I die if I dont I die. He ended up taking second. Still pissed I traded him the zombie set :(.
@ryansolid, Piscian18 and Hunter44
Thanks all. It was a lot of fun, except I hate winning or losing to mana screw.
I probably should have brought in Dormi Rade against the aggro matches, as I did bring in removal. Typically game 2/3 against aggro was 2 Ultimate Price, 2 Abrupt Decay, 2 Searing Spear, 2 Dreadbore, and against Blitz, 2 Golgari Charm, to kill off any early gas they might have. I would adjust that now to only kill off anything that was accelerating past what we could block profitably against, since I really, really wanted removal for Boros Reckoner and other, like shenanigans. Domri Rade would probably have put me ahead in draws, since I hit a lot of creatures. I would have gotten to my lands in 6 turns, which would have given me the game.
I will say, I had a really good time with Hellrider. I won two games thanks to the trigger when attacking. He is not as harsh on the curve when you have 23 lands and the possibility to reach 24.
If I see this much aggro again, I am going to revisit my 1-drop choices. Experiment obviously stays, but... well, I'll let you know.
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Round 6 vs Aristocrats with Thundermaw
1-2
Game 3 he got out Ghost Dad with an active skirsdag high priest and two cartel aristocrats. I was able to chump/regen the dad with the crimson muckwader as I tried to find an answer, it never came. Sometimes you really hate ultimate price.
Round 7 vs American Flash with Reckoner
0-2
Missed several plays that could have given me a chance of winning, but after the rough loss from last round I was tilting and scrubbing.
That sucks man. Yeah I've been searching for a strangleroot replacement but my green is really solid and that undying really puts the pressure on. I think the best replacement is gore-house. I eyeballed that Crimson muckwader this weekend but his regenerate is worthless. Flunkies I keep seeing in top 8 decks but I HATEZEZ them. maybe sideboard the murder and switch out Ultimate price for it as needed?
Vexing devil is actually one of the first cards on the chopping block in order to fit the new 2 drop. I only saw him once all day and that was against the jund midrange and the guy was already at two. He just came down on a well developed board to evolve experiment one. Underwhelming all around, just felt he was a better late game top deck than rakdos cackler.
Hmm.. I've been running Bonfire out of the board against Reanimator and it's been possibly the best card there. I am thinking of putting a 3rd in the board now. I guess I have a bit more reason with my acceleration especially Gyre Sage but not only is killing dorks/souls good.. Of the top it does do that Overrun effect I was looking for and I feel like that's a swingy type of effect worth having. Sage does make it much better for me, where I've got a Falkenrath on board with Sage and Boar, and am facing down a Healer and a Thragtusk, and it's just been like Bonfire for 5.. kill your board except for a beast.. kill your accel and another Thragtusk can't save you. I'm guessing it probably isn't much better than a Golgari Charm in stock lists, but I think for any 24 land list it's probably worth a nod which it hasn't been getting as of late in general.
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Took second at WNM tonight 4-1 around 18 people. Reanimator GET OUT OF MY FACE!
Seriously I played 3 junk rites/ reanimator decks. Jesus let it go already. I beat all three. There's key cards against this deck. Deathrite Shaman, Golgari charm, Olivia Voldaren, Ultimate price. You can't beat Reanimator on its playing field so don't try. People are blatant with it. You want Deathrite shaman in your opening hand. every time they mulch, grisly salvage eat it. nom nom nom. wait until they run out of lingering souls then Golgari charm. Use the Olivia to PEWPEW the lingering souls and take creatures. Be ware the angel of serenity. Try to win by turn 7 keep the pressure on but save that Ultimate price for the angel. When it comes down you'll need it.
The Domri basically draws cards for you but I think he, Ghor-clan and Hellriders ended up being my side outs, If I played more aggro I might have tossed The deathrites had I been up against more aggro, really deathrite is a an unblockable 2 damage or 2 life gain nearly every turn. That really adds up.
My loss tonight was to Naya Midrange. Midrange decks are just tough to deal with. They don't have any one card to play around. I find that its best to side in whatever top end removal you have like Dreadbore, Ultimate price, and possibly appetite for brains.
So I'm trying to figure out when to mulligan more with this deck.
Let's say you get a opener of
Land
Land
Land
Land
Flinthoof Boar
Searing Spear
Experiment-One
If you draw a spell or 2 you're probably fine., but if you draw a land this hand is disgusting. What do you do?
I guess like I'm trying to figure out if a 4 lander is okay with this deck.
I'm still new to the game but imo if it's land I can play I'd keep. If its 4 dual-lands **** that noise. If its shocks you can play sure. Preferably Mountains to give that Boar juice.
Turn one EXO Turn two Boar - Turn 3 Spear and hope you have your combo cards going by then.
Some of it is the deck youre playing. You gotta know for certain you can get 3 turns out of that hand.
Yeah, that is not a bad hand at all, since we run so many creatures. Your chances of hitting another creature instead of land is quite high. I would keep that hand most games, since i have a high chance of hitting value and I can guarantee my 3 and 4 drops hit turn 3 and 4.
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Yeah 4 lands is awkward but you have to keep that. Even with 22 lands you may flood out. It was exactly those type of hands that really started annoying me. I mean its just as possible to keep a 2 lander and never see the 3rd. When you play stuff like Burning-Tree which is mostly air you basically have to sequence everything just right. It can be really awkward when there is no free wins outside Burning-Tree nut draws. You draw into fairly good stuff but nothing quite insurmountable. As good as the 4 drops are they dont take over games as much as the 5's.
So I tried these greedy Arbor Elf builds. I got to 21 lands before I stopped and really asked myself why. I wanted the speed for sure but more than anything I wanted to hit 5 mana without having to run a ton of lands. I even cut down my 4 drops to facilitate more 5's. This was actually better. But I couldnt reconcile the awkward mana hands and the potential to mulligan down to oblivion. Kibler GR style isnt terrible but it can be awkward. He did turn me back on Borderland Ranger though. That's how you reasonably get to 5 with bodies. Speed only matters to a point and when everyone is playing a bit greedy reliability is that much more important. 23 lands and 2 Rangers doesnt seem anymore ambitious than 21 lands and 4 Elves. He also illustrated the importance of 5 drops. I mean he's played decks with 8 t1 rampers and rangers and only played 3. Its a very good read of what matters in Standard. Even pre GTC he refused to play 5's in GB Ooze because of how hard they were to cast. Something fundamental has changed.
So I returned to an earlier list basically trading my Demons for Silverhearts. I went 4-0 tonight. Given this list is not really aggro it will probably be my last post here for a while unless there is interest. I played the list below except I've now traded the 2nd Decay for the 4th Ghor Clan. Possibly should trade a Slip instead.
Do you think a List with BTE + Flunkies would be better then the Strangleroot Plan ? What I like about this list, is that every creature (except 1 drops) has haste. I know that BTE draws can be devastating, but I dont know how consistent this would be.
I'm half brewing, half trying to adapt ideas from this thread. Here is my first list, performs pretty smooth, never really having mana issues. Gyre can be akward tapping all your duals to produce G,GG,GGG, etc, only being able to cast strangle and maybe wolfir, maybe I'll add savagery and test that out. For now, heres my list. I know this is not the place for budget discussion, but I guess I'm trying to go "under" and not run Falkenrath/Thundermaw. Can it be done or does jund aggro just plain work better that way? At first I was going to take my R/g gruul sligh and just add black for removal, but I got a few ideas along the way. Well, heres the list.
What I'm most confused on is the sideboard, pretty sure I need to add charms, and take out some removal. Another thing, can the manabase support Hellrider as a finisher? I like ghor-clan though, so I might just stick with him. Has anyone tried rancors in the deck? IMO could work with gyre sage. The Howlpacks are purely just for testing.
Today was a good day. 4 rounds, top 4. Went 3-1 in rounds, 2-0 in top 4 for first place. These are tweaks with the sideboard, I originally did not have Olivia Voldaren, Skullcrack or the 4th Deathrite Shaman. I had Rakdos Charm, an additional Thundermaw Hellkite, and 2 Appetite for Brains. Appetite was too passive, an extra Thundermaw was too much, and the absence of Olivia hurt against aggro and the Jund mid-range match where using her as removal is valid.
Round 1 vs. Esper Control 2-0
I will reiterate that the key to good openings with the deck involve doing valid things each turn, as quickly as possible. If I open with a 1-drop, 1-3 2-drops (esp. BTE), and a 3 or four drop, I usually beat the slower decks if they don't have responses. The key to this match was to not overextend. Better to keep doing some damage and hold back something relevant. Being able to come back from a turn 4 board wipe with a hasted Dreg Mangler or Flinthoof Boar is amazingly critical. Golgari Charm was also amazing, whether it was removing pesky spirits or providing regeneration.
Round 2 vs. BW Undead 2-1
I opened with a mediocre hand, but I also had no idea what he was playing. With a little luck, it was a good hand, but it wasn't. I adjusted and took the next two pretty easily. The key to this deck is to keep a decent life total and put pressure on them quickly, which makes Deathrite Shaman an amazing 1-drop. They have 8 creatures that come in tapped and 4 more that can't block. If you have removal, save it for stuff like Bloodthirst Vampire and Blood Artist. Sideboard was Golgari Charm and Abrupt Decay.
Round 3 vs. Jund Mid-range 1-2
The only problem here was being aggressive enough. If they have a lot of removal right away and we can't get in by turn 5, it is a bad game. The deck is resilient and a resolved Olivia followed by a resolved Thragtusk is bad news bears. That's why I changed the deck for now, as Olivia would have been better, as would Skullcrack. I swapped in Vexing Devil because either choice for them is bad and it always evolves X-1.
Round 4 vs. Naya Blitz 2-1
Removal and progressing your board. A played Ghor-clan Rampager as a blocker is usually more value than as a bloodrush. Thundermaw and the Shamans went out, Vexing Devil (a powerful blocker) and more removal went in. Golgari Charm is not good here, unless you want to use it as a regen. Better to be able to kill their 2/2's. I love Abrupt Decay, Searing Spear, and Ultimate Price in here because that lets you kill almost everything they have. Timing your removal is crucial, either before they soulbond, or after they attack believing their Silverblade Paladin is safe. You have to be the judicious player here, not the all out attacker.
Top 4 2-0 vs. UWR Control
Like the Esper match, the key is to take early command and leave back a little bit to make sure you are not just run-over. DRS is fantastic, gains you life, but more importantly whittles they down and removes stuff they can flashback. Feel free to bait them into blocking with Augur and then bloodrush over it. Golgari charm is crucial here also for a resolved Assemble the Legions.
Top 2 2-0 vs. Jund Mid-range
Same guy, same deck, better mulligans, he blocked with an Arbor Elf, then drew two Thragtusk in a row, but with only 4 mana. I win. Moral of the story? Don't block with your mana dork unless you have no other choice. I hear gaining 10 life is good.
Once I am at 4 mana, especially if I have a fifth, I will attack with Dreg Mangler and dare them to kill it, knowing I will scavenge it next turn or the turn after. I had a 7/4 Falkenrath Aristocrat against him turn 5, with two X-1 on the field for indestructible.
NEVER keep a hand that has only two colors, unless the rest of your hand can use all of it. any hand with RG lands, but any spells you will need in the first 4 turns with B will often result in a loss, and vice-versa for BR or BG. Always try to get BGR, even if it is only two lands since that way any land gets your 3-drops active.
I love this basic build, I think it is really resilient, it mulligans well, and has a mid-game.
EDIT:
So, not much reanimator and no Jund Aggro in Top 16, but 3 RG aggro. I don't quite understand that. I think RG Aggro is inferior.
So I keep seeing top 8 lists with rakdos cackler and I don't understand how it is better than vexing devil. I know the whole "it's bad to give your opponent a choice" thing but how often does cackler really hit for more than 4?
the "options"
1. They take 4.
2. If they choose to leave the devil on the field it's because they have removal or some other way to deal with it. So what. You may force them to use a removal spell on the devil that if it were a cackler they would have held for a more formidable threat. If they have a blocker, well a cackler would have done no good either.
The only situation I can see the cackler being better is if you need to top deck a blocker or you're going to die, and they can just take the 4 damage and then kill you. If that's the case you were probably dead anyways.
The devil can level up experiment to a 3rd +1/+1 counter which I think is an added bonus.
Anyways, just curious if it was thought of and if so why it was shot down.
EDIT:
So, not much reanimator and no Jund Aggro in Top 16, but 3 RG aggro. I don't quite understand that. I think RG Aggro is inferior.
Sort of.. I think the colors give them less range but they use mana better. This is what I've been getting at in most of my posts on the thread. Jund's black removal and Falkenrath definitely gives it an edge but their 5-6 5 drops are better against more of the field.
Mind you of those 3 lists, they are all very different. One actually is BUG and not GR. One is RG red based. Only the highest placing of the 3 is what I'm talking about. But I think adding black to that sort of deck is interesting design space.
I mean they are intentionally not playing Experiment One and playing Arbor Elf. And they play Gyre Sage. What's the reason?
So I keep seeing top 8 lists with rakdos cackler and I don't understand how it is better than vexing devil. I know the whole "it's bad to give your opponent a choice" thing but how often does cackler really hit for more than 4?
the "options"
1. They take 4.
2. If they choose to leave the devil on the field it's because they have removal or some other way to deal with it. So what. You may force them to use a removal spell on the devil that if it were a cackler they would have held for a more formidable threat. If they have a blocker, well a cackler would have done no good either.
The only situation I can see the cackler being better is if you need to top deck a blocker or you're going to die, and they can just take the 4 damage and then kill you. If that's the case you were probably dead anyways.
The devil can level up experiment to a 3rd +1/+1 counter which I think is an added bonus.
Anyways, just curious if it was thought of and if so why it was shot down.
The problem is the 4 damage to the face doesn't matter that much. You are likely taking it in the earliest turns when life loss matters less. Rakdos Cackler may or may not contribute directly to 4 or less damage, but it creates your board presence that allows you to position yourself to better push other damage. It's rarely as simple as the first order impacts. The card constantly is brought up and people play it to various amounts. It's just never quite good enough and the reasons I stated I think are why. This format really rewards threat density. That's why all the land greediness. Giving the potential out early isn't worth it. You'd never Boros Charm someone to the face turn 1. It's the same thing. This deck doesn't usually win with burn reach so establishing your board ends up doing a lot more to getting the last damage in.
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Sort of.. I think the colors give them less range but they use mana better. This is what I've been getting at in most of my posts on the thread. Jund's black removal and Falkenrath definitely gives it an edge but their 5-6 5 drops are better against more of the field.
Mind you of those 3 lists, they are all very different. One actually is BUG and not GR. One is RG red based. Only the highest placing of the 3 is what I'm talking about. But I think adding black to that sort of deck is interesting design space.
I mean they are intentionally not playing Experiment One and playing Arbor Elf. And they play Gyre Sage. What's the reason?
Ramp into their best cards. If they can ramp, they have powerful plays.
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Ramp into their best cards. If they can ramp, they have powerful plays.
Yeah so I mean the question is what is more worth doing? I mean our deck is mostly GR at base. If anything their deck has more aggressive being in 2 colors yet they opt not to play Experiment One which would seem to be the most aggressive choice. The reason I think is that the reward for the ramping is considerably better. It allows the deck to be just a bit greedier which makes up for inconsistency on draws in lands with low land counts. It's possible to be stuck with 5's in your hand, but their ability to take over when you land them are considerably more important than what the Experiment One or Flunkies bring to the table. The rest of the creature base is similar so it's pretty much matched along the line. When you are in a field with Reanimator with is low on removal and decks with red removal that can't beat a Silverheart, and the others with Azorius Charm (where Domri takes over) you actually are playing all sides pretty well.
I'd rather be Jund head to head but it's an admirable position to be in. You are basically pushing a series of trumps in an aggressive shell. I think Jund has the ability to do that even better with anti-control cards like Rakdos' Return or Slaughter Games but it's interesting what certain color combinations attract from certain players.
My issue with GR using Ramp is that they are even weaker to dork destruction than Junk because Junk has ways to get lands in hand to never miss drops, plus ramp. GR however can be really hamstrung with a little precision removal or an early sweeper.
I feel like Exp Jund deck has more flexibility and I like how it feels, but I'm also a control player by preference. I'm playing Experiment Jund because I don't like Esper Control very much, but that is without a doubt my only other deck of choice. In the pre-RTR universe, all I played was UB Permission, UB Tezzeret and Solar Flare (1 permission, and 2 board control decks), and I only went with the board control decks because of Cavern of Souls.
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My issue with GR using Ramp is that they are even weaker to dork destruction than Junk because Junk has ways to get lands in hand to never miss drops, plus ramp. GR however can be really hamstrung with a little precision removal or an early sweeper.
I feel like Exp Jund deck has more flexibility and I like how it feels, but I'm also a control player by preference. I'm playing Experiment Jund because I don't like Esper Control very much, but that is without a doubt my only other deck of choice. In the pre-RTR universe, all I played was UB Permission, UB Tezzeret and Solar Flare (1 permission, and 2 board control decks), and I only went with the board control decks because of Cavern of Souls.
I like that Experiment jund has the long game Jund aggro does not. I play a mix of the 2 which hasn't really caused me any problems, Deathrite is a turn 1 blocker, EXO evolver and lifegainer. I had a match against reanimator the other day where we were just staring each down every turn with my 3/3's and his lotleth trolls but the difference was every spell he played got eaten by my deathrite.
I'm starting to feel a little unhappy with my deck though and I'm sure what to do about it. Believe or not I'm decktesting Rakdos, lord of riots. I realize people think this is the stupidest card ever but looking at jund aggro and and experiment jund. I'm really confident I can get him on the field pretty easily turn four or five. In fact my mana plays to those colors evenly. My only problem is I'm more likely to see Forest/Swamp than Mountain/swamp mountain/forest. it just kinda occurred to me while flipping through my binder for ideas that Rakdos goes over literally everything even angel of serenty. Maybe it is stupid but I'm gonna put him in just so I can see that one match where somebodys heart sinks on turn 4.
@piscian18
Hey, give it a shot. Might need to tweak the mana bit. What is this replacing?
So far I am thinking I might re-apply Cryptborn Horror post-rotation. No need for it now.
Its funny you should say that I was eyeballing that card is well. Unfortunately it came down to both cards giving up a turn to be finishers. Cyptborn horror is great if turns 1-3 are good and his colors work fine. I could see playing him now. You have potential 6-7 beater, but instead of bashing in with a Hellrider or Aristocrat you're sitting on your butt. I don't like it. No luck on Rakdos ultimately my decktesting found that there was no way I could play him without giving up mana consistency since this deck is G spashing R/B. Even switching out a forest for a bloodcrypt didn't help. Just looks like it might **** up my turn 1. I can get one or the other R or B but not both. My big change for tonight is giving up the Deathrites and domris for hellriders and another ghor-clan. I know this may screw up my long game but on my testing showed those wasteland vipers can really **** up a naya fatty block. Ultimate price ruins a restoration angel or angel of serenity.
Watching SCG the most common shoulder sink comes from turn 6 cackler or stromkirk. testing for me showed a turn 6 wasteland viper can make all the difference in the world. Gonna try it tonight.
I'm worried about my sideboard. The three decks I have trouble with are Boros and Junk Rites, naya/jund midrange but mainly boros. I was beaten on friday with a Champion into 2x gather the townsfolk followed by frontline medic and Boros elites. In the back of my mind I kinda wanna sideboard Electrickery. I haven't had time to test it out but I know its seeing play at starcity. Bonfire of the damned maybe? Idk. I could use some ideas on this.
vs. Esper Control
+2 Dreadbore
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Domri Rade
-1 Abrupt Decay (unless they use a heavy Blind Obedience build)
-2 Ultimate Price
-2 Searing Spear
-1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
So I need some help. I'm looking to run a version of this my local FNM starting this week and eventually at some bigger tournaments once I've really finalized my list and gotten a good feel for the deck. I've pretty much got built up the traditional list at the moment, except I'm having trouble deciding on one or two things.
I see most of these decks playing Experiment One over Stromkirk Noble, which I assume is their reason for playing Mogg Flunkies over Lightning Mauler. I've been playtesting Noble and Mauler and liking it a lot, but I can see the appeal of the alternative, which seems to hit a little harder right out of the gates. Still, though, I like that by going the Noble/Mauler route you can include basic Mountains over Forests, making Flinthoof Boar that much better/more consistent.
@miilkshake
In a word, resilience. This deck is not a glass canon deck like Blitz or Mono-Red, it is capable of tenacious D. The X-1/Flunkies combo is key to that.
X-1 grows quickly and can regenerate and grow again. Very nice against removal. Plus, it has a lot of synergy with Falkenrath Aristocrat as a Human (as it does in Naya Blitz with Champion of the Parish).
I was won over to Mogg Flunkies by its 3 toughness. It is a good blocker, survives non-morbid Tragic Slip and Pillar of Flame can't kill it. Bonfire of the Damned has to miracle with 4 mana up or it requires 7 mana. Since I also frequently use Golgari Charm's -1/-1 against mana dorks and the like, 3/3 matters.
Given that I run 13 Haste creatures, Flunkies is rarely alone for more than a second.
Makes sense. Guess I'll try it out and see how I like it. Also I've seen the occasional list running Crimson Muckwader over Mogg Flunkies Thoughts on that guy?
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Yeah in my case my friend and I made a b/w "aristocrat". The decks been updated since I worked on it but it features lingering souls instead of F.Aristocrat so no mountains I know that for sure. Anyway a guy borrowing it beat my face in on friday. Once he gets going with the thrull/cartel/blood artist and zombies on the table I'm dead in the water. If I swing I die if I dont I die. He ended up taking second. Still pissed I traded him the zombie set :(.
Thanks all. It was a lot of fun, except I hate winning or losing to mana screw.
I probably should have brought in Dormi Rade against the aggro matches, as I did bring in removal. Typically game 2/3 against aggro was 2 Ultimate Price, 2 Abrupt Decay, 2 Searing Spear, 2 Dreadbore, and against Blitz, 2 Golgari Charm, to kill off any early gas they might have. I would adjust that now to only kill off anything that was accelerating past what we could block profitably against, since I really, really wanted removal for Boros Reckoner and other, like shenanigans. Domri Rade would probably have put me ahead in draws, since I hit a lot of creatures. I would have gotten to my lands in 6 turns, which would have given me the game.
I will say, I had a really good time with Hellrider. I won two games thanks to the trigger when attacking. He is not as harsh on the curve when you have 23 lands and the possibility to reach 24.
If I see this much aggro again, I am going to revisit my 1-drop choices. Experiment obviously stays, but... well, I'll let you know.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Went 4-3 to finish 27th out of 106
4 Blood Crypt
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
2 Crimson Muckwader
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Dreadbore
3 Dreg Mangler
4 Experiment One
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Flinthoof Boar
2 Forest
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Lightning Mauler
1 Mountain
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Rootbound Crag
2 Searing Spear
4 Stomping Ground
1 Ultimate Price
2 Vexing Devil
2 Woodland Cemetery
2 Appetite for Brains
2 Cremate
2 Domri Rade
2 Golgari Charm
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Olivia Voldaren
1 Slaughter Games
1 Ultimate Price
2 Wolfir Silverheart
Round 1 vs Bant Turbo Fog
2-1
Round 2 vs Jund Midrange
2-0
Round 3 vs Junk Reanimator
2-1
Round 4 vs American Flash with Reckoner
1-2
Round 5 vs Junk Reanimator
2-0
Round 6 vs Aristocrats with Thundermaw
1-2
Game 3 he got out Ghost Dad with an active skirsdag high priest and two cartel aristocrats. I was able to chump/regen the dad with the crimson muckwader as I tried to find an answer, it never came. Sometimes you really hate ultimate price.
Round 7 vs American Flash with Reckoner
0-2
Missed several plays that could have given me a chance of winning, but after the rough loss from last round I was tilting and scrubbing.
Things I'm going to try out next time.
-Changing Ultimate Price for Murder
The casting cost is going to be a little more prohibitive but the things that murder kills should be worth it. IE Boros Reckoner, Obzedat, Ghost Council, Olivia Voldaren
-Better two drop
Crimson Muckwader does experience moments of unmitigated glory in battle, but most of the time he is underwhelming. I don't like Mogg Flunkies as I hate it when they are standing there looking dumb on an otherwise empty field.
In my mind Ash Zealot or Strangleroot Geist would be perfect but the stress they put on the mana base and incompatibility with Burning-Tree Emissary make me cringe.
Gore-house Chainwalker, Gastaf Shepherd, Darkthicket Wolf,...
howd that vexing devil work out for you?
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Let's say you get a opener of
Land
Land
Land
Land
Flinthoof Boar
Searing Spear
Experiment-One
If you draw a spell or 2 you're probably fine., but if you draw a land this hand is disgusting. What do you do?
I guess like I'm trying to figure out if a 4 lander is okay with this deck.
Seriously I played 3 junk rites/ reanimator decks. Jesus let it go already. I beat all three. There's key cards against this deck. Deathrite Shaman, Golgari charm, Olivia Voldaren, Ultimate price. You can't beat Reanimator on its playing field so don't try. People are blatant with it. You want Deathrite shaman in your opening hand. every time they mulch, grisly salvage eat it. nom nom nom. wait until they run out of lingering souls then Golgari charm. Use the Olivia to PEWPEW the lingering souls and take creatures. Be ware the angel of serenity. Try to win by turn 7 keep the pressure on but save that Ultimate price for the angel. When it comes down you'll need it.
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Dreg Mangler
4x Experiment One
4x Falkenrath Aristocrat
4x Flinthoof Boar
3x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Strangleroot Geist
2x hellrider
3x Blood Crypt
3x Forest
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Stomping Ground
4x Woodland Cemetery
Instant (3)
1x ultimate price
2x searing spear
Sorcery (1)
1x dreadbore
2x Domri Rade
2x Olivia Valdaren
3x Volcanic Strength
3x Golgari Charm
2x abrupt decay
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Appetite for brains
The Domri basically draws cards for you but I think he, Ghor-clan and Hellriders ended up being my side outs, If I played more aggro I might have tossed The deathrites had I been up against more aggro, really deathrite is a an unblockable 2 damage or 2 life gain nearly every turn. That really adds up.
My loss tonight was to Naya Midrange. Midrange decks are just tough to deal with. They don't have any one card to play around. I find that its best to side in whatever top end removal you have like Dreadbore, Ultimate price, and possibly appetite for brains.
I'm still new to the game but imo if it's land I can play I'd keep. If its 4 dual-lands **** that noise. If its shocks you can play sure. Preferably Mountains to give that Boar juice.
Turn one EXO Turn two Boar - Turn 3 Spear and hope you have your combo cards going by then.
Some of it is the deck youre playing. You gotta know for certain you can get 3 turns out of that hand.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
So I tried these greedy Arbor Elf builds. I got to 21 lands before I stopped and really asked myself why. I wanted the speed for sure but more than anything I wanted to hit 5 mana without having to run a ton of lands. I even cut down my 4 drops to facilitate more 5's. This was actually better. But I couldnt reconcile the awkward mana hands and the potential to mulligan down to oblivion. Kibler GR style isnt terrible but it can be awkward. He did turn me back on Borderland Ranger though. That's how you reasonably get to 5 with bodies. Speed only matters to a point and when everyone is playing a bit greedy reliability is that much more important. 23 lands and 2 Rangers doesnt seem anymore ambitious than 21 lands and 4 Elves. He also illustrated the importance of 5 drops. I mean he's played decks with 8 t1 rampers and rangers and only played 3. Its a very good read of what matters in Standard. Even pre GTC he refused to play 5's in GB Ooze because of how hard they were to cast. Something fundamental has changed.
So I returned to an earlier list basically trading my Demons for Silverhearts. I went 4-0 tonight. Given this list is not really aggro it will probably be my last post here for a while unless there is interest. I played the list below except I've now traded the 2nd Decay for the 4th Ghor Clan. Possibly should trade a Slip instead.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
3 Woodland Cemetary
3 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rootbound Crag
2 Mountain
1 Forest
Creatures(30):
4 Gyre Sage
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
2 Dreg Mangler
2 Borderland Ranger
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Ghor Clan Rampager
3 Thundermaw Hellkite
3 Wolfir Silverheart
2 Tragic Slip
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dreadbore
3 Domri Rade
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Victim of Night
2 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Rakdos' Return
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Slaughter Games
2 Garruk Relentless
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Experiment One
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Hellrider
Spells 7
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dreadbore
2 Searing Spear
1 Ultimate Price
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Rootbound Crag
2 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Cremate
2 Domri Rade
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Golgari Charm
2 Olivia Voldaren
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Do you think a List with BTE + Flunkies would be better then the Strangleroot Plan ? What I like about this list, is that every creature (except 1 drops) has haste. I know that BTE draws can be devastating, but I dont know how consistent this would be.
Any suggestions for my List ?
Thanks in advance.
BUG Aggro
2x Dragonskull Summit
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Stomping Ground
2x Woodland Cemetery
4x Rakdos Cackler
1x Tragic Slip
4x Experiment One
1x Ultimate Price
4x Flinthoof Boar
4x Gyre Sage
3x Searing Spear
4x Burning-Tree
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Strangleroot Geist
3x Dreg Mangler
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
2x Wolfir Silverheart
2x Hunger of the Howlpack
1x Murder
2x Pillar of Flame
2x Tragic Slip
2x Traitorous Blood
4x Volcanic Strength
What I'm most confused on is the sideboard, pretty sure I need to add charms, and take out some removal. Another thing, can the manabase support Hellrider as a finisher? I like ghor-clan though, so I might just stick with him. Has anyone tried rancors in the deck? IMO could work with gyre sage. The Howlpacks are purely just for testing.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
3 Rootbound Crag
2 Woodland Cemetery
3 Dragonskull Summit
2 Forest
1 Mountain
Creatures 32
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Experiment One
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Mogg Flunkies
3 Dreg Mangler
4 Ghor-clam Rampager
2 Hellrider
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Searing Spear
2 Ultimate Price
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Dreadbore
2 Domri Rade
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Skullcrack
3 Vexing Devil
Round 1 vs. Esper Control 2-0
I will reiterate that the key to good openings with the deck involve doing valid things each turn, as quickly as possible. If I open with a 1-drop, 1-3 2-drops (esp. BTE), and a 3 or four drop, I usually beat the slower decks if they don't have responses. The key to this match was to not overextend. Better to keep doing some damage and hold back something relevant. Being able to come back from a turn 4 board wipe with a hasted Dreg Mangler or Flinthoof Boar is amazingly critical. Golgari Charm was also amazing, whether it was removing pesky spirits or providing regeneration.
Round 2 vs. BW Undead 2-1
I opened with a mediocre hand, but I also had no idea what he was playing. With a little luck, it was a good hand, but it wasn't. I adjusted and took the next two pretty easily. The key to this deck is to keep a decent life total and put pressure on them quickly, which makes Deathrite Shaman an amazing 1-drop. They have 8 creatures that come in tapped and 4 more that can't block. If you have removal, save it for stuff like Bloodthirst Vampire and Blood Artist. Sideboard was Golgari Charm and Abrupt Decay.
Round 3 vs. Jund Mid-range 1-2
The only problem here was being aggressive enough. If they have a lot of removal right away and we can't get in by turn 5, it is a bad game. The deck is resilient and a resolved Olivia followed by a resolved Thragtusk is bad news bears. That's why I changed the deck for now, as Olivia would have been better, as would Skullcrack. I swapped in Vexing Devil because either choice for them is bad and it always evolves X-1.
Round 4 vs. Naya Blitz 2-1
Removal and progressing your board. A played Ghor-clan Rampager as a blocker is usually more value than as a bloodrush. Thundermaw and the Shamans went out, Vexing Devil (a powerful blocker) and more removal went in. Golgari Charm is not good here, unless you want to use it as a regen. Better to be able to kill their 2/2's. I love Abrupt Decay, Searing Spear, and Ultimate Price in here because that lets you kill almost everything they have. Timing your removal is crucial, either before they soulbond, or after they attack believing their Silverblade Paladin is safe. You have to be the judicious player here, not the all out attacker.
Top 4 2-0 vs. UWR Control
Like the Esper match, the key is to take early command and leave back a little bit to make sure you are not just run-over. DRS is fantastic, gains you life, but more importantly whittles they down and removes stuff they can flashback. Feel free to bait them into blocking with Augur and then bloodrush over it. Golgari charm is crucial here also for a resolved Assemble the Legions.
Top 2 2-0 vs. Jund Mid-range
Same guy, same deck, better mulligans, he blocked with an Arbor Elf, then drew two Thragtusk in a row, but with only 4 mana. I win. Moral of the story? Don't block with your mana dork unless you have no other choice. I hear gaining 10 life is good.
Once I am at 4 mana, especially if I have a fifth, I will attack with Dreg Mangler and dare them to kill it, knowing I will scavenge it next turn or the turn after. I had a 7/4 Falkenrath Aristocrat against him turn 5, with two X-1 on the field for indestructible.
NEVER keep a hand that has only two colors, unless the rest of your hand can use all of it. any hand with RG lands, but any spells you will need in the first 4 turns with B will often result in a loss, and vice-versa for BR or BG. Always try to get BGR, even if it is only two lands since that way any land gets your 3-drops active.
I love this basic build, I think it is really resilient, it mulligans well, and has a mid-game.
EDIT:
So, not much reanimator and no Jund Aggro in Top 16, but 3 RG aggro. I don't quite understand that. I think RG Aggro is inferior.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
the "options"
1. They take 4.
2. If they choose to leave the devil on the field it's because they have removal or some other way to deal with it. So what. You may force them to use a removal spell on the devil that if it were a cackler they would have held for a more formidable threat. If they have a blocker, well a cackler would have done no good either.
The only situation I can see the cackler being better is if you need to top deck a blocker or you're going to die, and they can just take the 4 damage and then kill you. If that's the case you were probably dead anyways.
The devil can level up experiment to a 3rd +1/+1 counter which I think is an added bonus.
Anyways, just curious if it was thought of and if so why it was shot down.
My sales thread: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/1651-ktk-for-sale
Sort of.. I think the colors give them less range but they use mana better. This is what I've been getting at in most of my posts on the thread. Jund's black removal and Falkenrath definitely gives it an edge but their 5-6 5 drops are better against more of the field.
Mind you of those 3 lists, they are all very different. One actually is BUG and not GR. One is RG red based. Only the highest placing of the 3 is what I'm talking about. But I think adding black to that sort of deck is interesting design space.
I mean they are intentionally not playing Experiment One and playing Arbor Elf. And they play Gyre Sage. What's the reason?
The problem is the 4 damage to the face doesn't matter that much. You are likely taking it in the earliest turns when life loss matters less. Rakdos Cackler may or may not contribute directly to 4 or less damage, but it creates your board presence that allows you to position yourself to better push other damage. It's rarely as simple as the first order impacts. The card constantly is brought up and people play it to various amounts. It's just never quite good enough and the reasons I stated I think are why. This format really rewards threat density. That's why all the land greediness. Giving the potential out early isn't worth it. You'd never Boros Charm someone to the face turn 1. It's the same thing. This deck doesn't usually win with burn reach so establishing your board ends up doing a lot more to getting the last damage in.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Ramp into their best cards. If they can ramp, they have powerful plays.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Yeah so I mean the question is what is more worth doing? I mean our deck is mostly GR at base. If anything their deck has more aggressive being in 2 colors yet they opt not to play Experiment One which would seem to be the most aggressive choice. The reason I think is that the reward for the ramping is considerably better. It allows the deck to be just a bit greedier which makes up for inconsistency on draws in lands with low land counts. It's possible to be stuck with 5's in your hand, but their ability to take over when you land them are considerably more important than what the Experiment One or Flunkies bring to the table. The rest of the creature base is similar so it's pretty much matched along the line. When you are in a field with Reanimator with is low on removal and decks with red removal that can't beat a Silverheart, and the others with Azorius Charm (where Domri takes over) you actually are playing all sides pretty well.
I'd rather be Jund head to head but it's an admirable position to be in. You are basically pushing a series of trumps in an aggressive shell. I think Jund has the ability to do that even better with anti-control cards like Rakdos' Return or Slaughter Games but it's interesting what certain color combinations attract from certain players.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I feel like Exp Jund deck has more flexibility and I like how it feels, but I'm also a control player by preference. I'm playing Experiment Jund because I don't like Esper Control very much, but that is without a doubt my only other deck of choice. In the pre-RTR universe, all I played was UB Permission, UB Tezzeret and Solar Flare (1 permission, and 2 board control decks), and I only went with the board control decks because of Cavern of Souls.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I like that Experiment jund has the long game Jund aggro does not. I play a mix of the 2 which hasn't really caused me any problems, Deathrite is a turn 1 blocker, EXO evolver and lifegainer. I had a match against reanimator the other day where we were just staring each down every turn with my 3/3's and his lotleth trolls but the difference was every spell he played got eaten by my deathrite.
I'm starting to feel a little unhappy with my deck though and I'm sure what to do about it. Believe or not I'm decktesting Rakdos, lord of riots. I realize people think this is the stupidest card ever but looking at jund aggro and and experiment jund. I'm really confident I can get him on the field pretty easily turn four or five. In fact my mana plays to those colors evenly. My only problem is I'm more likely to see Forest/Swamp than Mountain/swamp mountain/forest. it just kinda occurred to me while flipping through my binder for ideas that Rakdos goes over literally everything even angel of serenty. Maybe it is stupid but I'm gonna put him in just so I can see that one match where somebodys heart sinks on turn 4.
Hey, give it a shot. Might need to tweak the mana bit. What is this replacing?
So far I am thinking I might re-apply Cryptborn Horror post-rotation. No need for it now.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Its funny you should say that I was eyeballing that card is well. Unfortunately it came down to both cards giving up a turn to be finishers. Cyptborn horror is great if turns 1-3 are good and his colors work fine. I could see playing him now. You have potential 6-7 beater, but instead of bashing in with a Hellrider or Aristocrat you're sitting on your butt. I don't like it. No luck on Rakdos ultimately my decktesting found that there was no way I could play him without giving up mana consistency since this deck is G spashing R/B. Even switching out a forest for a bloodcrypt didn't help. Just looks like it might **** up my turn 1. I can get one or the other R or B but not both. My big change for tonight is giving up the Deathrites and domris for hellriders and another ghor-clan. I know this may screw up my long game but on my testing showed those wasteland vipers can really **** up a naya fatty block. Ultimate price ruins a restoration angel or angel of serenity.
Watching SCG the most common shoulder sink comes from turn 6 cackler or stromkirk. testing for me showed a turn 6 wasteland viper can make all the difference in the world. Gonna try it tonight.
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
3x Dreg Mangler
4x Experiment One
4x Falkenrath Aristocrat
4x Flinthoof Boar
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Hellrider
4x Strangleroot Geist
3x Wasteland Viper
4x Blood Crypt
3x Forest
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Stomping Ground
3x Woodland Cemetery
Instant (3)
2x Searing Spear
1x Ultimate Price
Sorcery (1)
1x Dreadbore
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Appetite for Brains
3x Golgari Charm
2x Olivia Voldaren
1x Tragic Slip
1x Ultimate Price
3x ?
I'm worried about my sideboard. The three decks I have trouble with are Boros and Junk Rites, naya/jund midrange but mainly boros. I was beaten on friday with a Champion into 2x gather the townsfolk followed by frontline medic and Boros elites. In the back of my mind I kinda wanna sideboard Electrickery. I haven't had time to test it out but I know its seeing play at starcity. Bonfire of the damned maybe? Idk. I could use some ideas on this.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
3 Rootbound Crag
2 Woodland Cemetery
3 Dragonskull Summit
2 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Experiment One
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Mogg Flunkies
3 Dreg Mangler
4 Ghor-clam Rampager
2 Hellrider
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Searing Spear
2 Ultimate Price
1 Abrupt Decay
Provisional Sideboard
Trying to think through siding:
vs. Junk Re
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Skullcrack
-3 X-1
-1 Abrupt Decay
vs. Turbo Fog
-2 Searing Spear
-2 Ultimate Price
-1 Abrupt Decay
-3 Mogg Flunkies
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Domri Rade
+2 Skullcrack
+2 Dreadbore
vs. Aristocrats
+2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Olivia Voldaren
+3 Vexing Devil
-2 Falkenrath Aristocrat
-2 Hellrider
-3 DRS
-2 Searing Spear
vs. Esper Control
+2 Dreadbore
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Domri Rade
-1 Abrupt Decay (unless they use a heavy Blind Obedience build)
-2 Ultimate Price
-2 Searing Spear
-1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
vs. Naya Blitz
+2 Golgari Charm
+3 Vexing Devil
+2 Olivia Voldaren
-2 Hellrider
-3 DRS
-1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Thundermaw Hellkite
vs. Jund/Naya Mid
+2 Skullcrack
+3 Vexing Devil
+1 Golgari Charm
+2 Olivia Voldaren (Jund)
-2 Ultimate Price (Jund)
-2 Searing Spear
-1 Abrupt Decay
-3 DRS
vs. UWR Flash
-2 Searing Spear
-2 Hellrider
+2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Dreadbore
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I see most of these decks playing Experiment One over Stromkirk Noble, which I assume is their reason for playing Mogg Flunkies over Lightning Mauler. I've been playtesting Noble and Mauler and liking it a lot, but I can see the appeal of the alternative, which seems to hit a little harder right out of the gates. Still, though, I like that by going the Noble/Mauler route you can include basic Mountains over Forests, making Flinthoof Boar that much better/more consistent.
Thoughts on this? I guess what I'm saying is, sell me on the Experiment One/Mogg Flunkies route, because right now I'm having a hard time giving up on Stromkirk Noble and Lightning Mauler.
In a word, resilience. This deck is not a glass canon deck like Blitz or Mono-Red, it is capable of tenacious D. The X-1/Flunkies combo is key to that.
X-1 grows quickly and can regenerate and grow again. Very nice against removal. Plus, it has a lot of synergy with Falkenrath Aristocrat as a Human (as it does in Naya Blitz with Champion of the Parish).
I was won over to Mogg Flunkies by its 3 toughness. It is a good blocker, survives non-morbid Tragic Slip and Pillar of Flame can't kill it. Bonfire of the Damned has to miracle with 4 mana up or it requires 7 mana. Since I also frequently use Golgari Charm's -1/-1 against mana dorks and the like, 3/3 matters.
Given that I run 13 Haste creatures, Flunkies is rarely alone for more than a second.
Also, since we use Deathrite Shaman for Reanimator and other decks, it has better synergy with X-1 than with Stromkirk Noble or Lightning Mauler.
Feel free to peruse my provisional Experiment Jund-centric Primer on page 1.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.