Every week I will propose a couple scenarios and I want you, the Community, to argue what moves you would make, why you would make them, and come together to figure out the optimal play.
This week...
Scenario 1:
It's Round 9 of SCG Nashville and you are playing your win and in against the Gerry Thompson. You don't know for sure what he is playing. It's Game 1. You are playing Bant Hexproof. Here is your opening hand:
It's Round 2 of a PTQ in San Diego, CA. You are playing against a random opponent playing a strange BUG Aggro deck with your Jund Midrange deck. The gamestate:
Extremely keepable hand against any Midrange/Control deck, but it's way too slow aggro. You have about 26% chance of drawing an untapped land for a T2 Farseek. I'd probably still keep, but I'm not going to like it.
I tossed the hand. It is a decent hand. what I did not like about it was the two buddy lands. If I hit a land that enters untapped on turn 2 I am in good shape against aggro, against a midrange I can skate it just fine. It was certainly a keeper as I found out, and my initial thought was to keep because I am more likely to be up against another midrange deck or if it is an aggro deck, the explosive start is not always a sure thing. But I tossed the hand, I did not find it worth the gamble because outside of Bonfire the other cards are too slow for me, even with 2 Farseeks.
Hand 2 was a snap mul. Garbage.
Hand 3 is rough, but I have the colors I would need to play the cards I draw and I have 3 land which is where I am comfortable with Jund at 5 in hand. I can farseek into a cheap bonfire at a reasonable time to stave off aggro and try to get into a Huntmaster or Thragtusk. There are a number of early removal spells I could draw as well. I like the 5 card hand, but after seeing all of them, I can look back and say I probably should have just kept my initial hand.
Scenario 2
I feel like I need more info on this. What is under AoS? What lands are tapped?
With the info provided I feel like I want to Resto Mimic to snag the extra token bringing it back in to copy thragtusk giving me a token and giving me another thragtusk copy on upkeep for a total of 10 life Gain and some extra bodies to bash in with for a win after dropping Smiter and charm for a token. Which if I am correct still kills me. But if there is a Thragtusk under the angel somewhere we have a lot more to work with. I feel like there is some important information missing or not stated as nonexistent.
If there is a Thrag under the AoS I would actually provably just Charm it. to get a total of 15 life and take the bodies where I can get them.
At his EOT, flash Resto Angel, Blink Prog Mimic. Have him Enter as a copy of the Thragtusk Token that he made. You gain 5 life and he now has 2 instances of the upkeep trigger. On your upkeep he'll make 2 thragtusk copies putting you at 16 life, and be able to kill him next turn with an alpha strike.
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At his EOT, flash Resto Angel, Blink Prog Mimic. Have him Enter as a copy of the Thragtusk Token that he made. You gain 5 life and he now has 2 instances of the upkeep trigger. On your upkeep he'll make 2 thragtusk copies putting you at 16 life, and be able to kill him next turn with an alpha strike.
Just because the Thragtusk token is a token doesn't mean it doesn't have the ability. The ability gets copied into the tokens it makes. The Thragtusk token looks like this...
Thragtusk 4G
Creature - Beast
When ~ ETB, Gain 5 Life
When ~ LTB, get a 3/3 Beast
At the beginning of your upkeep, if ~ is not a token, put a token copy into play.
Since the token is a token, the ability does nothing. However, if you put Mimic into play copying that token, it will look like this.
Thragtusk 4G
Creature - Beast
When ~ ETB, Gain 5 Life
When ~ LTB, get a 3/3 Beast
At the beginning of your upkeep, if ~ is not a token, put a token copy into play.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if ~ is not a token, put a token copy into play.
...And it won't be a token. On your upkeep you will get 2 tokens.
EDIT: Relevant oracle rulings...
4/15/2013: If you choose to have Progenitor Mimic enter the battlefield as a copy of a creature, the triggered ability it gains will become part of its copiable values. For example, suppose Progenitor Mimic enters the battlefield as a copy of Runeclaw Bear, a 2/2 green Bear creature with mana cost {1}{G}. The resulting object is a 2/2 green Bear creature named Runeclaw Bear with mana cost {1}{G} and with “At the beginning of your upkeep, if this creature isn’t a token, put a token onto the battlefield that’s a copy of this creature.” If another Progenitor Mimic enters the battlefield as a copy of that creature, it will be a Runeclaw Bear with two instances of the triggered ability.
4/15/2013: If the chosen creature is a token, Progenitor Mimic copies the original characteristics of that token as stated by the effect that put it onto the battlefield. Copying a token doesn’t make Progenitor Mimic become a token.
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There was a Voice and a Strangleroot Geist (both your opp) under the Angel in my notes.. I completely forgot about them. As for the solution, 7HOR got it right. I was wondering who would catch the interaction! I will update the post for anybody else who wants to try their hand at it.
Also, if a card doesn't say "tapped' next to it, assume it is untapped.
Scenario 1: I mulled into a keepable 6 land hand. It is slower, but it presents a difficult threat with ways to start adding meat. The initial 7 was debatable. i really wanted to keep it and just start dishing out meat on a pilgrim to get in for some quick damage and force out some early removal options. Looking back, I probably would have kept the initial 7.
Scenario 2: Steal Seer and beat in. Pinging is not required since Seer is already a vamp.
Stealing Seer does nothing other than remove a blocker. It doesn't gain haste when it switches side (though if this is your opponent's end step, sure, that works). OTHERWISE, you can't win this turn.
EDIT: Maybe hope your opponent forgets his Duskmantle trigger for the third time in the tournament? (Sorry Brian Kowal, I know that GP:Chicago still stings....)
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Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
Stealing Seer does nothing other than remove a blocker. It doesn't gain haste when it switches side (though if this is your opponent's end step, sure, that works). OTHERWISE, you can't win this turn.
EDIT: Maybe hope your opponent forgets his Duskmantle trigger for the third time in the tournament? (Sorry Brian Kowal, I know that GP:Chicago still stings....)
They are at 9 with it as their only blocker. You have 9 on board already with Oliv and Thrag...
Scenario 1
Keep the opener and pray for blue mana. If not, slap ethereal armor on pilgrim and go to town.
Scenario 2
Gain control of duskmatle seer using Olivia, swing for lethal.
Every week I will propose a couple scenarios and I want you, the Community, to argue what moves you would make, why you would make them, and come together to figure out the optimal play.
This week...
Scenario 1:
It's Round 9 of SCG Nashville and you are playing your win and in against the Gerry Thompson. You don't know for sure what he is playing. It's Game 1. You are playing Bant Hexproof. Here is your opening hand:
Mull or Keep?
You get this six card hand...
Mull or Keep?
You see this 5 card hand...
Mull or Keep?
Scenario 2:
It's Round 2 of a PTQ in San Diego, CA. You are playing against a random opponent playing a strange BUG Aggro deck with your Jund Midrange deck. The gamestate:
Your opponent's life: 9
Your opponent's hand: 4 cards. Unknown.
Your opponent's board: Duskmantle Seer, Young Wolf (tapped with a +1/+1 counter), Strangleroot Geist (tapped with a +1/+1 counter), Watery Grave (tapped), 2x Overgrown Tomb (tapped), 1x Breeding Pool (tapped)
Your opponent's graveyard: Irrelevant.
Your life: 2
Your hand: Tragic Slip, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Sire of Insanity, Blood Crypt.
Your board: Thragtusk, Olivia Voldaren (with one +1/+1 counter), 3x Overgrown Tomb, 1x Stomping Ground, Forest, Kessig Wolf Run.
Your graveyard: Irrelevant.
Objective: Kill your opponent this turn.
Have fun!
-:koopa:
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Extremely keepable hand against any Midrange/Control deck, but it's way too slow aggro. You have about 26% chance of drawing an untapped land for a T2 Farseek. I'd probably still keep, but I'm not going to like it.
Scenario 2:
Stumped. Are the lands tapped or untapped EoT?
I tossed the hand. It is a decent hand. what I did not like about it was the two buddy lands. If I hit a land that enters untapped on turn 2 I am in good shape against aggro, against a midrange I can skate it just fine. It was certainly a keeper as I found out, and my initial thought was to keep because I am more likely to be up against another midrange deck or if it is an aggro deck, the explosive start is not always a sure thing. But I tossed the hand, I did not find it worth the gamble because outside of Bonfire the other cards are too slow for me, even with 2 Farseeks.
Hand 2 was a snap mul. Garbage.
Hand 3 is rough, but I have the colors I would need to play the cards I draw and I have 3 land which is where I am comfortable with Jund at 5 in hand. I can farseek into a cheap bonfire at a reasonable time to stave off aggro and try to get into a Huntmaster or Thragtusk. There are a number of early removal spells I could draw as well. I like the 5 card hand, but after seeing all of them, I can look back and say I probably should have just kept my initial hand.
Scenario 2
I feel like I need more info on this. What is under AoS? What lands are tapped?
With the info provided I feel like I want to Resto Mimic to snag the extra token bringing it back in to copy thragtusk giving me a token and giving me another thragtusk copy on upkeep for a total of 10 life Gain and some extra bodies to bash in with for a win after dropping Smiter and charm for a token. Which if I am correct still kills me. But if there is a Thragtusk under the angel somewhere we have a lot more to work with. I feel like there is some important information missing or not stated as nonexistent.
If there is a Thrag under the AoS I would actually provably just Charm it. to get a total of 15 life and take the bodies where I can get them.
That is where I am and I feel we need to know more. Without 3 triggers we are just dead from what I can tell.
At his EOT, flash Resto Angel, Blink Prog Mimic. Have him Enter as a copy of the Thragtusk Token that he made. You gain 5 life and he now has 2 instances of the upkeep trigger. On your upkeep he'll make 2 thragtusk copies putting you at 16 life, and be able to kill him next turn with an alpha strike.
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Modern: Death & Taxes
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Read Mimic again
Just because the Thragtusk token is a token doesn't mean it doesn't have the ability. The ability gets copied into the tokens it makes. The Thragtusk token looks like this...
Thragtusk 4G
Creature - Beast
When ~ ETB, Gain 5 Life
When ~ LTB, get a 3/3 Beast
At the beginning of your upkeep, if ~ is not a token, put a token copy into play.
Since the token is a token, the ability does nothing. However, if you put Mimic into play copying that token, it will look like this.
Thragtusk 4G
Creature - Beast
When ~ ETB, Gain 5 Life
When ~ LTB, get a 3/3 Beast
At the beginning of your upkeep, if ~ is not a token, put a token copy into play.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if ~ is not a token, put a token copy into play.
...And it won't be a token. On your upkeep you will get 2 tokens.
EDIT: Relevant oracle rulings...
4/15/2013: If you choose to have Progenitor Mimic enter the battlefield as a copy of a creature, the triggered ability it gains will become part of its copiable values. For example, suppose Progenitor Mimic enters the battlefield as a copy of Runeclaw Bear, a 2/2 green Bear creature with mana cost {1}{G}. The resulting object is a 2/2 green Bear creature named Runeclaw Bear with mana cost {1}{G} and with “At the beginning of your upkeep, if this creature isn’t a token, put a token onto the battlefield that’s a copy of this creature.” If another Progenitor Mimic enters the battlefield as a copy of that creature, it will be a Runeclaw Bear with two instances of the triggered ability.
4/15/2013: If the chosen creature is a token, Progenitor Mimic copies the original characteristics of that token as stated by the effect that put it onto the battlefield. Copying a token doesn’t make Progenitor Mimic become a token.
Standard: B/x Devotion
Modern: Death & Taxes
Top 8 - TCGPlayer Qualifier 7/23/11
Top 4 - Free $500 FNM 10/2/12
Top 8 - Star City Games OT 4/20/13
Top 8 - Star City Games Super IQ 5/25/13
Top 8 - TCGPlayer 1k 10/5/13
Top 16 - TCGPlayer Diamond 5k 4/5/14
Also, if a card doesn't say "tapped' next to it, assume it is untapped.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Keep hand 2. Can't ask for much more than what you're gettin'.
Scenario 2: Steal Duskmantle with Olivia, since it's already a vampire and doesn't need to be pinged first. Swing the team. Easy easy scenario.
Scenario 2: Steal Seer and beat in. Pinging is not required since Seer is already a vamp.
EDIT: Maybe hope your opponent forgets his Duskmantle trigger for the third time in the tournament? (Sorry Brian Kowal, I know that GP:Chicago still stings....)
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
They are at 9 with it as their only blocker. You have 9 on board already with Oliv and Thrag...
He's playing UWR, duh.
Mull. One land, no blue mana, and too much risk of Gerry shooting my mana dorks early.
JUDGE!
I drew seven cards on my mull-to-six.
If that was my seven, though, I'd keep. If I had to take a forced mull though...
Gotta keep. My four isn't going to be any better than that.
I'll take a look at S2 later.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Keep the opener and pray for blue mana. If not, slap ethereal armor on pilgrim and go to town.
Scenario 2
Gain control of duskmatle seer using Olivia, swing for lethal.
Here's my list: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9988911#post9988911
Mull first hand, keep second. If he shoots Pilgrim and you miss a land drop you auto lose. Second hand is fairly safe.
S2:
Steal, swing.