Is Dark Naya still a competitor? Cuz I've been running Naya splash Lingering souls for a few months now. Other creative sb choices as well. Mostly losing to counterspell.america.dec. But I beat up on rites and rx aggro all the time.
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I survived Faeries, Caw Blade, Valakut and Delver.
Standard: BGW Abzan Control BGW WU Azorius Heroic WU
Islands are used to pay the colorless parts of green spells.
It's interesting because GP Guadalajara was filled with Naya decks that seemed to veer between midrange and aggro. They're running Thundermaw like an aggro deck, but Huntmaster and Resto like a midrange deck. Weird!
This is my current build. I haven't fleshed out the board. Couple comments. The deck needs to be aggressive to stand a chance. I'm basically porting my Sage Jund deck back to Naya. That deck was fast enough but couldn't stabilize against aggro with the lack of early 2 for 1's. This deck is way better against aggro, but might be a touch too slow. Most of my card decisions are with this in mind. Key point I tested 6 1 mana dorks but didn't like the extra forest I added. I had cut Sage and had Resto but the threat density and explosiveness was worse. This is where I currently am.
This is what I've been testing a lot lately, the mana took some time to get right but I think it's pretty good now. Before I changed it around I was struggling to consistently land T4/T5 thundermaws which often cost me games as getting them low enough to kill with that card happened quite often. I cut back on the restoration angels to 2 because she's more of a trick/protection vs spot removal decks, she also has a nice play where you blink a thundermaw to re-tap all their flies and get in again for 5. I added in 2 copies of advent because I wanted people to not know exactly what was coming if I left 4 open, if that guy resolves he's 5 trampling power and if his friend thundermaw is waiting that's 10 power right there coming to the face on turn t4/t5.
Ghor-Clan rampager was often pretty awkward, this deck is not full out aggro but more like consistent pressure and that card wasn't doing all that much for me in test. Domri is a house and an auto 3-4 of, his +1 does a very good thing in clearing creatures off the top of your deck so you can draw into more lands if you need them and his fight ability with boar/smiter/reckoner is pretty awesome as well. Selesnya charm MD gives the deck some combat tricks plus it deals with bombs like AoS in game 1, mortars basically cleans up the rest.
Most important card in the deck that I think you MUST run is slayer's stronghold, that card lets you come back if your t4/t5 thundermaw doesn't kill them. Turns any card in the deck into a legit threat if you get into the late game, dropping a smiter and passing is a lot different that dropping a smiter and giving it +2/0 vig and haste and crashing in for 6 damage out of nowhere. Don't run any basics as it shuts off reckoner, experiment one seems out of place but essentially he's evolving for free all the time and with gavony/slayers he's a lot better late game than it would appear.
Side isn't 100% worked out but it's getting there, most of those cards are pretty obvious. Only deck I'm sort of worried about is bant hexproof, the single ray and unflinching courage helps out there a little I hope. You also have the option of getting in early then comboing them with reckoner + blasphemous act to get them super low and wipe out their enchanted dude before he can start lifelinking a ton. After that it's a matter of landing a finisher or having slayers stronghold available I'm thinking, not sure if it's enough yet though.
@jb231 I like all the cards in your deck so to speak. But the mana base looks terrible to me. Now I think you can run 2 non Red/White lands and play Reckoner.. maybe even 3. But 6 T1 plays. 8 T1 Green Sources. That's just rough.. You can not realistically play 1 drops with no basics. With 4 T1 plays I wouldn't play less than 10 T1 green sources. Honestly with any deck that wants to really play it's T1 plays, I'd want 12. We can make allowances since we play a lot of powerful 2 and 3 drops, but it basically blanks the tempo of the 1 drop. Ie. Experiment One is way worse and Pilgrim only matters if you stuck on mana (which happens), and you have an opening to play it. The reason I care is the importance of early game tempo right now. It's just too big to overlook.
Similarly I've found more than about 7-8 Buddy Lands means way too many first 2 turns tapped land draws. That's why I play 4 basics. I could cut one mountain but I find it makes a difference. Similarly having the 10th mountain for Boar, which again 8 mountains really seems to be not enough. Generally the aim is about 10.. maybe 9.
As with you I have no clue on the sideboard yet. It's usually that way with these decks because they are so middling it's hard to figure out exactly what's worth it. To me the worst matchup is Junk Rites. Everything else is reasonable. I mean having more answers to aggro or hexproof is good too. Sometimes Jund can be a pain but not usually. I find a heavy Thundermaw Bonfire build makes Aristocrats fine, plus against Junk we now have access to Blasphemous Act trick when they don't.
Yea I'm not sure the mana is perfect but I basically took the list that someone was consistently 4-0'ing dailies with and changed it to basically -1 sunpetal grove/-1 forest +1 clifftop/+1 sacred foundry. Mainly because t4/t5 thundermaw wasn't happening consistently due to no RR, I think I might cut a clifftop and add another forest in the end. I've played that deck above in about 30 sets and haven't had many problems with the T1 play but I could see variance kicking me for not running 9 T1 green sources.
The decks I've seen usually run selesnya charm to help deal with game 1 junk rites decks, depending on what the AoS chooses to exile you can either recover your cards while exiling the angel or blow them out by exiling the angel and the rest of the cards they put under her from their yard if they're greedy. Since you run Sublime I'd also think it would help you quite a bit to avoid getting chumped giving your guy trample and +2/+2 or even having that play available to stop them from burning your guy with your exalted triggers on the stack.
I toyed with bonfire a bit but I found since we're playing fatties what usually ends up happening is our guys either get removed or the opponent has to double block or chump. In any event they usually don't have enough guys to make bonfire really that needed, it's good but I'd rather just mizzium mortars their best blocking and swing forcing them to make poor blocks or get chunked. If we play hyper aggro decks act/pilar/unflinching can do a lot of work and boros reckoner + domri just eats those decks.
A deck that actually really beats us up is the golgari midrange deck, desecration demon is a really big problem as is messenger/thragtusk. They pack strong removal to deal with our big threats too, can draw a ton of cards off disciple of bolas. In this matchup selesnya charm does a lot of lifting as well.
I think I accidentally switched a Domri and a Selesnya Charm because I remember I had 3 Charms maindeck and then cut 1 and now I have 1 lol. Oh well. I'm not sure how I feel about 4 Domri. He's really good though. Like, really really good. I'm ambivalent about running arbor elves and 2 forests because every time I have forest arbor elf hand, I always have a reckoner in my hand and I'm like, for real... :((. Ruric Thar is the spot I've been playing around with to do cute things with. Last week, it was Aurelia, and she seemed sweet. But there've been a few america decks and mizzium mortars going around, so I figure Ruric would do a little better.
I don't like farseek in this deck. I'm running a minimum of 3 Domri, so mana dorks are just better. No real need to maindeck thragtusk, it doesn't really do anything. It's in the sideboard because I didn't feel like digging for another card. I'm also a big fan of gavony over kessig. I'm not in a huge hurry to get to 4 mana. Dork into reckoner/smiter into 4 drop is better than farseek into either of those. Being able to turn 2 Domri is also very powerful.
I would say cut 1-2 Domri, 1 Forest, 2 Arbor Elves to add 4 Farseek. Domri is finde but he lives long enough with our good creatures around so to many can be dead cards. Your 4CC slot is big so you just need farseek when you want to play wurm/huntmaster/resto on T3. Township is also not the best spellland you can run in naya, use wolfrun or slayers stronghold instead. Why is a Thragtusk in the SB and not in the MB?
I can answer all of these by looking at what his deck is doing. I hope in the process some of the lines between the archetypes become clearer, and why.
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Goals of Midrange
First off we all know there are about a million ways to make midrange. The reason is there typically are 4 goals that all midrange decks have and everyone puts them at different priority.
1. Critical Mass
2. Board Control
3. Value Accumulation
4. Threat Density
A deck like Jund highly prioritizes Board Control. A deck like Birthing Pod highly values Value Accumulation. A deck like tokens highly values Critical Mass. A deck like Mythic Conscription values Threat Density. Usually it's possible to maximize 2 out of the 4, but beyond that it takes certain concessions.
Every format has some type of midrange deck. UW Tap out is midrange. Gx decks with mana dorks are midrange (even if they carry the moniker of aggro sometimes).
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Why Farseek can be a trap
Sometimes I feel this should go without saying but there is an extreme cost of playing Farseek in terms of tempo. When the most powerful cards in your deck are 3 drops, opting not to get on the board that turn has you backpedalling the rest of the game. If you Farseek you definitely want the 4 drop to follow. But it intrinsically makes your 1 drop less relevant and your 3 drop somewhat awkward. It does get you out ahead on mana, but you aren't attacking on T3. If your intent is to play up threat density or to critical mass not attacking or presenting board a turn earlier frees the opponent to begin developing theirs. Worse it doesn't put any deck that has inevitability on you at a reasonable speed, on a clock. Farseek is pretty much strictly worse against Junk Reanimator.
In essence playing Farseek moves you into playing more mass removal. And removal in general. You have to be concerned much more with the opponents hand. The reason is for it to be worthwhile you need the 4/5 drops to be that much more powerful (including their ability to stabilize) and you'd want a decent number of them to have them in hand. Unfortunately when you don't have farseek you've curved up too high.
As a practical example if you T2 a Smiter instead of a Farseek and aggro opponent has to burn a card to push through. If you play Farseek, they just drop more threats on the board. Now if you can sweep them you are fine, but if not when you drop your threat, the answer they didn't use the previous turn now gets them through you. Assuming your T3 play is better than a Smiter that is. Maybe you stabilize but you potentially take that much more damage to get there. It puts more pressure on you to have the right cards. Wheres if you have Smiter, then you follow up with a good 4, by the time you are at 5 you don't need to often be backpeddaling with Thragtusk you can be powering over with Thundermaw.
The above deck actually way more wants to play Boros Reckoner on T3 then it cares about playing those 4 drops on T4. Resto on T4? No.. Huntmaster T3 maybe. But then you wouldn't play all the great 3 drops. Play a mana dork and maybe you get Reckoner T2 and Huntmaster T3. It is emphasizing critical mass and threat density a bit more. Thundermaws close games out when you already either are winning on board in a race, or when the game is in a standstill. Domri does so as well. Farseek gets in the way of this.
If you play mana dorks just make sure you play enough T1 green sources.
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Utility lands in Naya
Gavony Township was the best go to land in GW(including Naya) decks for about a year so I wouldn't underestimate it. It lends itself to playing with cheap creatures that come with playing for threat density. Given these creatures make mana there is a good argument for Kessig Wolf Run as well. However Slayer's Stronghold while powerful and cheap only benefits from the haste in a deck like this at 6 mana or more. It's fine when you expect to be running into clear boards or to mess with race math, but it fills a less important need. Gavony lets you critical mass without playing out more threats. Kessig lets you push threat density without playing more threats. I'm not sure which one is best right now out of Gavony and Kessig. I'm usually in the Kessig camp, but a deck like this has the largest argument for Gavony. I actually probably think Gavony is the best land here due to the mana dorks. Sure if you cut for Farseek and play Thragtusk it isn't.
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Who's the Beatdown?
We are.. Not against aggro but most else. We don't have access to black removal, blue counterspells, discard like Sire or Rakdos' Return, draw like Sphinx's Rev, recursion like Unburial Rites. We win on the board. That's why we have no choice but to prioritize Threat Density and Critical Mass. We can not be a better Jund or Junk Rites. We can be valued right out of the game by Junk as they have more Resto's and Thragtusks than we can play. It doesn't mean we can't play value cards or board control. Domri/Reckoner isn't unlike Cunning Sparkmage/Collar. And there are matchups where Domri is like Triumph of Ferocity where that matters. We have the ability to prioritize different things in different matchups. But fundamentally we will never be a better Jund or Junk Rites so don't try to be.
I really like the points that ryansolid is making about the deck, I've been testing this deck a lot and I feel like cards like huntmaster, thragtusk, restoration angel, arbor elf, any 6 drops, centaur healer, and farseek just aren't the type of cards this deck wants to run. Those are completely fine cards and if you want to run them just play jund, you'll win far more often playing the jund version with those cards than you will the naya version IMO.
If you're set running cards like huntmaster/thrag/restoration angel/farseek then I'd say you need something at the top that wins the game for you when you land it. You'd really want to be running cards like AoS and Aurelia with cavern backup. You'd probably want to be also running cards like borderland ranger/searing spear to help you control the board/get there in the end.
This deck is about landing a couple early powerhouse cards that scream "answer me!" and keeping the pressure applied firmly. Regarding the list I posted earlier I've come to this as my next version of the deck.
The mana base has shifted to 10 T1 green sources to better support the Avacyn's Pilgrim/experiment one line, Gavony got the boot simply due to the fact that it just wasn't doing an awful lot compared to slayers stronghold. Being able to turn cards like smiter/reckoner/boar into 5 hasty damage out of nowhere seemed to line up better with what this deck tries to accomplish over gavony which when it was good it was great but often just tapping for colorless mana. Very difficult to leave up 5 mana to threaten a gavony even, leaving up 3 to threaten slayers was more reasonable most games.
I've decided to test out 61 cards, I've seen number of lists running 23 lands with the same curve and I've seen a number of lists running 24 lands. I've found that 23 can work fine but you want 24 to ensure thundermaw happens when you need it to. I couldn't find a cut but maybe a copy of domri, hands with 2 domries and no power 2/3 drops can be sort of awkward - especially when domri +1 reveals another domri
The sideboard needs another card, I haven't quite found what it needs yet but unflinching courage/garruk PH/purify the grave/oblivion ring aren't out of the question yet. The 2 skullcracks seem out of place but they are there as a nod to my local meta which has a number of surprisingly strong maze's end decks. Those decks can sweep/fog you non-stop while doing something we can't interact with at all. It also helps vs the bant-enchant decks that will win via lifelink and reanimator decks relying on thragtusk to save them(haven't tested this yet though, might not be the right approach to this MU). I've been testing a single Sigarda to combat decks like Junk rites/Jund and other sweeper-less midrange strategies as well. I don't think cards like rest in peace/ground seal are quite good enough against rites strategies, I think we want to be getting in and killing them before they can do their thing. We've got blasphemous act/O-Ring/selesnya charm to help deal with AoS pretty well. Purify the grave might be the best card in that regards; I just hate taking a turn off against those decks because they often can play a straight up game just fine and their curve toppers can really slow us down from closing out the game.
As always comments are appreciated, I really want to get this deck tuned as much as possible as I've got all the pieces just about assembled in paper.
I don't particularly feel like 10 turn 1 green sources is enough for 6 dorks, but reckoner becomes obnoxious to cast if you cut more other lands.
Yeah the mana is so annoying. This is large reason why I didn't play the deck pre DGM. It was only the success of equally bad mana bases that made me consider it. Naya during Alara had 9 T1 lands with 4 dorks (part of the reason Bant was better) and it got by. I think 4 really is at its limit. Which is why I'm trying Gyre Sage again. The mana was why Saito's list didn't play Pilgrim. Given the power level of cards I'm willing to risk it on Pilgrim. This is a worse Sage deck without Burning-Tree but those starts were much better into a 4 drop in Jund. You can still Voice Boar. You just can't attack that turn unless you opened with Pilgrim. Better play is choose one and attack most often but it's a good defensive play. You can still follow up with a 4 or 5 and realize you incidentally have another 4/5 on the table. Still double Sage hands are much more awkward so cutting one from the G/R shell seems reasonable.
The other reason I stayed away was no good 4 drops on curve. Voice I feel reconciled Sublime Archangel. I also thought Advent would be good. It's fine but not quite good enough on its own. Without black removal(or reasonable cheap white removal) opposing Reckoners are a real deal. You need your 4-5 drops to be able to ignore it. Ghor Clan on a 3/3 fights through it. But even Advent trades with it. Flying over it is great. Yes you can't throw someone exalted pumped on the ground at it, so it becomes a post combat play but it still demands removal.
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Know which card I'm the least impressed with these days? Loxodon Smiter. Don't get me wrong, this is a great card. Boros Reckoner just laughs at it as does Ghor Clan Rampager. All the card realistically does is cause a 2 for 1 against aggro when they don't have the Ghor Clan. How often do they not have the Ghor Clan? Ok I'm being a bit facetious. Everywhere else it's like a Flinthoof Boar without haste. It promotes board stalls better than most cards but it doesn't often win races. It runs into Thragtusk on an alpha strike just like the rest of them. Yes it beats Restoration Angel but not what it flickers back(save snap/augur). Count the number of times you get swept with a Voice out and follow up with a Smiter where if it'd been a boar you'd hit for 3 more and how often that 3 matters. In any sort of mirror battle if I wanted a cheap big creature I'd just play Gyre Sage. It lets me establish board faster and then sits conveniently as a 4/5.
Now it's possible you just play them all. But you risk playing something underpowered. How many 3's do you need. With mana accel in non utility slots I like 8. Mind you with only 4 dorks Boar is a legitimate 2. That is if you have a mountain. Again people who are trying to run Boar without basics are warned. The math again is roughly the same. I want 10 mountains. Experiment Jund acknowledged it was too hard on their mana and only ran 9.
Actually Experiment Jund is a good example of a deck that had a green 1 drop base and Mountains for Boar. I suggest checking it out. Cedric's Sage Jund has similar constraints. Boros Reckoner is what makes our lives harder. It makes the utility land difficult those decks run. At 24 lands you can probably risk it. I just figure the payoff isn't worth it. You have no real choice but play the forests. I had a 3rd and it bugged me enough I cut it and 2 arbor elves.
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So as I figure it the mana base starts with 12 shocks and 2 Forests. You need 4 more green sources min to reach 14 the minimum number of green for a deck like this. You need atleast 4 more white and red to support Voice and Hellkite your most intensive cards in each color (12 a piece, although 14 would be preferable). Reckoner needs 20 red or white sources. If you have Boar you need 1 or 2 more Mountains.
So out of the 9 or 10 remaining slots if you play Boar or more than 4 T1 G plays you are only working at most 8-9 Buddy lands. At 23 lands it limits you at 15, 14, 14 or 15 around at 24. Basically a Utility land isn't really on the table til 24 and probably not if you need the extra forests, since while Reckoner probably only needs 20 playing it on time is so important that keeping any hand with 2 non Reckoner lands is a huge liability. Even 1 sometimes.
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Yeah the mana is so annoying. This is large reason why I didn't play the deck pre DGM. It was only the success of equally bad mana bases that made me consider it. Naya during Alara had 9 T1 lands with 4 dorks (part of the reason Bant was better) and it got by. I think 4 really is at its limit. Which is why I'm trying Gyre Sage again. The mana was why Saito's list didn't play Pilgrim. Given the power level of cards I'm willing to risk it on Pilgrim. This is a worse Sage deck without Burning-Tree but those starts were much better into a 4 drop in Jund. You can still Voice Boar. You just can't attack that turn unless you opened with Pilgrim. Better play is choose one and attack most often but it's a good defensive play. You can still follow up with a 4 or 5 and realize you incidentally have another 4/5 on the table. Still double Sage hands are much more awkward so cutting one from the G/R shell seems reasonable.
The other reason I stayed away was no good 4 drops on curve. Voice I feel reconciled Sublime Archangel. I also thought Advent would be good. It's fine but not quite good enough on its own. Without black removal(or reasonable cheap white removal) opposing Reckoners are a real deal. You need your 4-5 drops to be able to ignore it. Ghor Clan on a 3/3 fights through it. But even Advent trades with it. Flying over it is great. Yes you can't throw someone exalted pumped on the ground at it, so it becomes a post combat play but it still demands removal.
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Know which card I'm the least impressed with these days? Loxodon Smiter. Don't get me wrong, this is a great card. Boros Reckoner just laughs at it as does Ghor Clan Rampager. All the card realistically does is cause a 2 for 1 against aggro when they don't have the Ghor Clan. How often do they not have the Ghor Clan? Ok I'm being a bit facetious. Everywhere else it's like a Flinthoof Boar without haste. It promotes board stalls better than most cards but it doesn't often win races. It runs into Thragtusk on an alpha strike just like the rest of them. Yes it beats Restoration Angel but not what it flickers back(save snap/augur). Count the number of times you get swept with a Voice out and follow up with a Smiter where if it'd been a boar you'd hit for 3 more and how often that 3 matters. In any sort of mirror battle if I wanted a cheap big creature I'd just play Gyre Sage. It lets me establish board faster and then sits conveniently as a 4/5.
Now it's possible you just play them all. But you risk playing something underpowered. How many 3's do you need. With mana accel in non utility slots I like 8. Mind you with only 4 dorks Boar is a legitimate 2. That is if you have a mountain. Again people who are trying to run Boar without basics are warned. The math again is roughly the same. I want 10 mountains. Experiment Jund acknowledged it was too hard on their mana and only ran 9.
Actually Experiment Jund is a good example of a deck that had a green 1 drop base and Mountains for Boar. I suggest checking it out. Cedric's Sage Jund has similar constraints. Boros Reckoner is what makes our lives harder. It makes the utility land difficult those decks run. At 24 lands you can probably risk it. I just figure the payoff isn't worth it. You have no real choice but play the forests. I had a 3rd and it bugged me enough I cut it and 2 arbor elves.
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So as I figure it the mana base starts with 12 shocks and 2 Forests. You need 4 more green sources min to reach 14 the minimum number of green for a deck like this. You need atleast 4 more white and red to support Voice and Hellkite your most intensive cards in each color (12 a piece, although 14 would be preferable). Reckoner needs 20 red or white sources. If you have Boar you need 1 or 2 more Mountains.
So out of the 9 or 10 remaining slots if you play Boar or more than 4 T1 G plays you are only working at most 8-9 Buddy lands. At 23 lands it limits you at 15, 14, 14 or 15 around at 24. Basically a Utility land isn't really on the table til 24 and probably not if you need the extra forests, since while Reckoner probably only needs 20 playing it on time is so important that keeping any hand with 2 non Reckoner lands is a huge liability. Even 1 sometimes.
Since you obviously know way more about the mana bases than I do what do you think about this for my list?
I've gone up to 10 T1 green sources/9 mountains to try and support my early game cards. In testing flinthoof boar has been awesome, I might try and squeeze the 4th into my deck - maybe cut a domri or a smiter. Smiter has been testing not the greatest but he's still very good against a lot of decks out there, uncounterable + slayer's stronghold makes me pretty good late game as well, also if lilianna tries to +1 he can come down free, doesn't die to searing spear either which has been nice.
Played this deck at FNM last night and ended up in 2nd place.
I lost to Bant HexProof for the finals and I felt that matchup was really lame and none interactive.
Does anyone have a suggestion for how to improve the matchup with Bant Hexproof?
I've gone up to 10 T1 green sources/9 mountains to try and support my early game cards. In testing flinthoof boar has been awesome, I might try and squeeze the 4th into my deck - maybe cut a domri or a smiter. Smiter has been testing not the greatest but he's still very good against a lot of decks out there, uncounterable + slayer's stronghold makes me pretty good late game as well, also if lilianna tries to +1 he can come down free, doesn't die to searing spear either which has been nice.
Yeah don't get me wrong Smiter is good. I just don't know if he is as good as he could be. I'm constantly tinkering with stuff. It's possible the splits just aren't quite right etc, but I see no real problem with Smiter beyond this feeling I have that the deck is sometimes too slow. I am still working to remedy that. Smiter's anti aggro redundancy in such an aggro field is great though. It's more of a matter of numbers and what can we get away with. Smiter is by far the safe solid choice. Atleast in the interim you can gain something not playing something that everyone else is playing cause it is assumed you do. I played Jund Aggro with no Searing Spear but everyone played around it. You might just not got a Jund player +Lilliana on the same token (but probably not).
As for the mana. Yeah that looks good. At 24 I think you are reasonable. You probably are just going to want to keep a tally on how often the Slayer's Stronghold is good versus a liability but I could go either way on that. I do know why you like Slayers Stronghold so much though. Deficit of powerful 4 drops and to some degree 5's. A Smiter with haste is about on par with a 4 drop (4/4 haste is a decent 4 these days). You have the 2 Advents and the 4 Thundermaws, but outside of that you basically have to win with 2 and 3 drops. This is fine but it can lead to awkward games where you are just a slower version of Naya Aggro. That extra push is missing, and in so Slayer's seems like a way to accomplish that. I think it's an expensive way to push that but I realize the reason to keep the curve low with only 4 dorks. The other way to get that effect is just to play more powerful 4 drops. Like I wonder how much less important Stronghold is if 2 of those Smiters become Advent of the Wurm. I know that doesn't work with Domri etc.. I'm just saying in terms of threat power level.
Played this deck at FNM last night and ended up in 2nd place.
I lost to Bant HexProof for the finals and I felt that matchup was really lame and none interactive.
Does anyone have a suggestion for how to improve the matchup with Bant Hexproof?
Can you describe how the games went? I mean the matchup is never great. I've raced them before but Unflinching Courage draws make that hard. I tend to be on the side of slamming Ghor Clans and Thundermaws and hoping I win the die roll. What intrigues me is that a lot of your cards look like they are good set up defensively (the arguably more reasonable way to approach it). You have Bonfire/Rolling Temblor, Ray of Revelation. These are all good cards. You even have Huntmaster. I mean arguably you can have more of each but I think that is unreasonable slots wise. Is it that the hate cards didn't do enough? Did you not draw them? I'm interested because if it is as I suspect (need to kill the creature not the pumps) and the sweepers aren't doing it, then we perhaps we need to go back to the drawing board on how we buy time against them.
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Without Farseek you're pretty much dealing with Naya Aggro. I think this thread should remain dedicated to Naya Midrange, aka Ramp, aka builds that involve Farseek. The lines have been blurred from what I can tell but I think it's easy to distinguish between Farseek and Farseek-less decks.
Without Farseek you're pretty much dealing with Naya Aggro. I think this thread should remain dedicated to Naya Midrange, aka Ramp, aka builds that involve Farseek. The lines have been blurred from what I can tell but I think it's easy to distinguish between Farseek and Farseek-less decks.
Yeah.. although the intent of the thread was Farseek-less I'm pretty sure. It showed up after the recent success of these Aggressive Naya Midrange decks:
PS... Don't get me started on how bad the manabases are for those GP decks. Actually let's quote what Brian Kibler has to say about it:
Quote from Brian Kibler »
The biggest problem I have with all of these Naya decks is their mana...
...Willy's deck is similarly outrageous to me, with two Gavony Townships in his deck that wants to cast Boros Reckoner as well as overload Mizzium Mortars. It just seems rather ambitious to me. I played a similar deck at Pro Tour Gatecrash, and even with four Arbor Elves for extra mana and fixing, I still felt greedy playing a single copy of Gavony Township. With so many powerful cards in your deck, it seems like you're better off focusing on having the right colors of mana to actually cast them rather than squeezing a little more value out of your lands.
Yeah.. although the intent of the thread was Farseek-less I'm pretty sure. It showed up after the recent success of these Aggressive Naya Midrange decks:
I may be a little off chronologically here but I believe it started at SCG Dallas (is this the SCG you're referring to (5/26), because there were no Hellkite present in this deck) when Naya Aggro won which was essentially just a Zoo variation. It continued untill SCG BAL where three Naya Aggro decks placed in the top 8. Directly after this SCG however, Naya Aggro evolved and expanded it's curve to incorporate Thundermaw for late game reach. On mtgpulse.com for example, these decks with Thundermaw at the top of the curve, the same decks in this thread are pegged as Naya Aggro. Without Farseek and Tusk I don't see how these can be labeled Midrange in any way shape or form.
As for the mana, yeah it's a joke. I was harping on people trying to include two Forest and two colorless land when Reckoner was released in the old Midrange and Zoo threads but they wouldn't listen.
Can you describe how the games went? I mean the matchup is never great. I've raced them before but Unflinching Courage draws make that hard. I tend to be on the side of slamming Ghor Clans and Thundermaws and hoping I win the die roll. What intrigues me is that a lot of your cards look like they are good set up defensively (the arguably more reasonable way to approach it). You have Bonfire/Rolling Temblor, Ray of Revelation. These are all good cards. You even have Huntmaster. I mean arguably you can have more of each but I think that is unreasonable slots wise. Is it that the hate cards didn't do enough? Did you not draw them? I'm interested because if it is as I suspect (need to kill the creature not the pumps) and the sweepers aren't doing it, then we perhaps we need to go back to the drawing board on how we buy time against them.
Spectral flight was a real problem as the deck is a little soft to flying. Spectral on a Geist is how I died first game. It was pretty much over since it was out of range for Seles charm.
After sideboard I brought in Ray, Rolling Temblor. The opponent just dropped a stalker then just threw a couple of equips on it and there was nothing I could do about it. The second game was longer but I flooded a bit so I wasn't able to close the game before the stalker came down and ended it.
Overall I would say the lack of sweepers hurts then softness to flying were major issues vs the deck.
I may be a little off chronologically here but I believe it started at SCG Dallas (is this the SCG you're referring to (5/26), because there were no Hellkite present in this deck) when Naya Aggro won which was essentially just a Zoo variation. It continued untill SCG BAL where three Naya Aggro decks placed in the top 8. Directly after this SCG however, Naya Aggro evolved and expanded it's curve to incorporate Thundermaw for late game reach. On mtgpulse.com for example, these decks with Thundermaw at the top of the curve, the same decks in this thread are pegged as Naya Aggro. Without Farseek and Tusk I don't see how these can be labeled Midrange in any way shape or form.
As for the mana, yeah it's a joke. I was harping on people trying to include two Forest and two colorless land when Reckoner was released in the old Midrange and Zoo threads but they wouldn't listen.
Yeah.. I'm talking about SCG St Louis 6/09.. and Grand Prix Guadalajara 5/26.
There is the more aggro version that showed up at SCG earlier, but those are different. I guess we could see it as an evolution but both decks basically existed at the same time. These decks are midrange, just not the Rock. Same way like Naya during Alara Block was considered Midrange or Bant. People often never know where to categorize these decks. I tend to call them Aggressive Midrange. This is pretty much the archetype I've played in every Standard Format the last 4 years or so. Gx with Swords/Gavony and streamlined Birthing Pod lists (Kibler Pod), Fauna Shaman decks etc.. are all this archetype. Cards like Vengevine, Hero of Bladehold, Sublime Archangel, Baneslayer Angel, Knight of the Reliquary, Thundermaw Hellkite etc.. are staples.
The biggest difference between them and aggro is they are less concerned with just depleting the opponents life. Their focus is on critical massing on board. Ie being able to present 20 damage on board fastest. Usually that means ramp on T1 instead of Wild Nacatl so to speak. It's a subtle difference. These decks don't typically Swarm per say but play increasingly more powerful threats before the opponent can keep up. This also allows them to have more powerful threats they can slow roll against control. But it completely changes the curve and the tempo of the decks. You can't just add a bunch of 4 and 5 drops and expect your deck to function properly. The reason the decks are still midrange is that they do clearly swap defined rolls. They clearly play control (although it's board control with bodies) against aggro, and they clearly play aggro against control. The balance point of where they sit is usually dependent on the speed of the Ramp deck in the format.
This is also usually the type of deck Brian Kibler plays so I don't know if you just categorize them as aggro and call it a day. I guess you can be pretty different the way the game tempo plays.
Spectral flight was a real problem as the deck is a little soft to flying. Spectral on a Geist is how I died first game. It was pretty much over since it was out of range for Seles charm.
After sideboard I brought in Ray, Rolling Temblor. The opponent just dropped a stalker then just threw a couple of equips on it and there was nothing I could do about it. The second game was longer but I flooded a bit so I wasn't able to close the game before the stalker came down and ended it.
Overall I would say the lack of sweepers hurts then softness to flying were major issues vs the deck.
Ok.. I mean you can play Resto but I don't think that helps much. Basically the sweepers were too slow and you need answers for the enchantment. I wonder if we have to consider just playing more Ray of Revelations and just have to draw them to win against them. I'm gathering you can hold on board against everything else. My concern was that it might not be enough against Geist of St Traft but if you are on the Huntmaster plan it's probably alright. I wonder if Ray is enough.. maybe like 2 Rays and a Paraselene is worth considering etc..
Ok.. I mean you can play Resto but I don't think that helps much. Basically the sweepers were too slow and you need answers for the enchantment. I wonder if we have to consider just playing more Ray of Revelations and just have to draw them to win against them. I'm gathering you can hold on board against everything else. My concern was that it might not be enough against Geist of St Traft but if you are on the Huntmaster plan it's probably alright. I wonder if Ray is enough.. maybe like 2 Rays and a Paraselene is worth considering etc..
Well normally how I would deal with flyers is with Domri -2, or Seles Charm. Resto would synergize with Huntmaster and Thundermaw, but it also raises the mana curve which I'm not too delighted about. I don't like adding Resto at the moment.
Glaring spotlight could be an option from the sideboard. It would allow Domri to do what he needs vs agro decks and be a removal spell. The non-combo with Domri +1 kind of stinks but more often then not I'm having to -2 Domri vs agro to help clear up the board.
Well normally how I would deal with flyers is with Domri -2, or Seles Charm. Resto would synergize with Huntmaster and Thundermaw, but it also raises the mana curve which I'm not too delighted about. I don't like adding Resto at the moment.
Glaring spotlight could be an option from the sideboard. It would allow Domri to do what he needs vs agro decks and be a removal spell. The non-combo with Domri +1 kind of stinks but more often then not I'm having to -2 Domri vs agro to help clear up the board.
Yeah the enchantments pump so it's not like Resto probably will even live on the defense. The tricky part with Spotlight is you still need the removal spell. Like Domri is fine if you get them early enough. But Geist plus Unflinching Courage might be hard to time. Since you need the 4/4 on the board on the board already and the Angel takes out Domri. I do like that Spotlight is a Overrun of sorts, but I wonder if it's good enough. It's still amusing. If it was good in any other matchup it'd be considerable after the first 2 Rays.. I wonder if it's good enough against Jund as a Faith's Shield of sorts.
-----------------
Nah.. really just play good cards and get there. I think maybe the 3rd Ray is essential but I think there might be room for something else. Electrickery is looking much more appealing to me in this deck than other decks. Mainly that x/1's tend to steal our thunder. Bonfire covers most other things but we have to be able to deal with a T1 Champion, Stromkirk Noble, Experiment One (to a lesser degree). Their Burnign Trees don't matter all that much. Similarly you have to answer the Invisible Stalker immediately before it's enchanted. The reason Junk Reanimator can be hard is their mana acceleration. I can live with a T5 unburial rites.. T4 can be backbreaking but they need to hit well for it. But if you can make sure they aren't ahead on mana it doesn't matter anymore. Similarly with Hexproof a T3 Geist into a T4 enchantment is slow enough especially with the Rays. I didn't think Electrickery was great since Bonfire for one covers it a lot.. But it's instant speed. Also with Blasphemous Act as an option for quick kill/reset I think it allows changing into a different beast of a deck.
I'm considering the following sideboard right now. Notice the cut of graveyard hate. Mainly Acidic Slime makes it pretty bad I find against Reanimator. We can't win the long game regularly. Keeping them off mana for cheap is big and then playing all the reach cards. The other good matchup for it is Aristocrats but I think I have that covered too (I have 3 Bonfires and 4 Thundermaws main).
Without Farseek you're pretty much dealing with Naya Aggro. I think this thread should remain dedicated to Naya Midrange, aka Ramp, aka builds that involve Farseek. The lines have been blurred from what I can tell but I think it's easy to distinguish between Farseek and Farseek-less decks.
I can't agree with this. You can have a midrange deck without farseek. There's a very different feel between this and aggro. Playstyle is very important in the distinction. Mana dorks are essentially farseek, but instead of 2 mana to 4, it's 1 to 3. It's more potent than farseek, but disruptive with relative ease. It may seem aggressive, but to me, this deck starts out aggressive, expecting the opponent to have answers and finding their lines of plays, but then shifts to be more resilient while the opponent is finding said answers to an aggressive start. A lot hands with this deck are aggro hands if the turn 1 dork isn't dealt with. If it is, then it just wants to get to the mid game with its spells.
When it comes to aggro, consistency is crucial. It's probably the most important thing in deck building. This deck isn't particularly reliant on consistency with the 1 ofs and 3 ofs and etc. I am probably all wrong about it, but it seems to be working for me.
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BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Standard:
BGW Abzan Control BGW
WU Azorius Heroic WU
Islands are used to pay the colorless parts of green spells.
4 Temple Garden
4 Stomping Ground
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Clifftop Retreat
3 Sunpetal Grove
1 Rootbound Crag
2 Forest
2 Mountain
Creatures(31):
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
2 Gyre Sage
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Borderland Ranger
4 Ghor Clan Rampager
3 Sublime Archangel
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
3 Domri Rade
3 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Boros Charm
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Rest in Peace
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Fiend Hunter
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Blasphemous Act
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Temple Garden
4 Stomping Ground
3 Sacred Foundry
4 Clifftop Retreat
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Rootbound Crag
1 Slayer's Stronghold
1 Gavony Township
Creatures(27):
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Flinthoof Boar
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Experiment One
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Restoration Angel
4 Domri Rade
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Advent of the Wurm
2 Pillar of Flame
3 Boros Charm
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Thragtusk
2 Blasphemous Act
1 Unflinching Courage
This is what I've been testing a lot lately, the mana took some time to get right but I think it's pretty good now. Before I changed it around I was struggling to consistently land T4/T5 thundermaws which often cost me games as getting them low enough to kill with that card happened quite often. I cut back on the restoration angels to 2 because she's more of a trick/protection vs spot removal decks, she also has a nice play where you blink a thundermaw to re-tap all their flies and get in again for 5. I added in 2 copies of advent because I wanted people to not know exactly what was coming if I left 4 open, if that guy resolves he's 5 trampling power and if his friend thundermaw is waiting that's 10 power right there coming to the face on turn t4/t5.
Ghor-Clan rampager was often pretty awkward, this deck is not full out aggro but more like consistent pressure and that card wasn't doing all that much for me in test. Domri is a house and an auto 3-4 of, his +1 does a very good thing in clearing creatures off the top of your deck so you can draw into more lands if you need them and his fight ability with boar/smiter/reckoner is pretty awesome as well. Selesnya charm MD gives the deck some combat tricks plus it deals with bombs like AoS in game 1, mortars basically cleans up the rest.
Most important card in the deck that I think you MUST run is slayer's stronghold, that card lets you come back if your t4/t5 thundermaw doesn't kill them. Turns any card in the deck into a legit threat if you get into the late game, dropping a smiter and passing is a lot different that dropping a smiter and giving it +2/0 vig and haste and crashing in for 6 damage out of nowhere. Don't run any basics as it shuts off reckoner, experiment one seems out of place but essentially he's evolving for free all the time and with gavony/slayers he's a lot better late game than it would appear.
Side isn't 100% worked out but it's getting there, most of those cards are pretty obvious. Only deck I'm sort of worried about is bant hexproof, the single ray and unflinching courage helps out there a little I hope. You also have the option of getting in early then comboing them with reckoner + blasphemous act to get them super low and wipe out their enchanted dude before he can start lifelinking a ton. After that it's a matter of landing a finisher or having slayers stronghold available I'm thinking, not sure if it's enough yet though.
Similarly I've found more than about 7-8 Buddy Lands means way too many first 2 turns tapped land draws. That's why I play 4 basics. I could cut one mountain but I find it makes a difference. Similarly having the 10th mountain for Boar, which again 8 mountains really seems to be not enough. Generally the aim is about 10.. maybe 9.
As with you I have no clue on the sideboard yet. It's usually that way with these decks because they are so middling it's hard to figure out exactly what's worth it. To me the worst matchup is Junk Rites. Everything else is reasonable. I mean having more answers to aggro or hexproof is good too. Sometimes Jund can be a pain but not usually. I find a heavy Thundermaw Bonfire build makes Aristocrats fine, plus against Junk we now have access to Blasphemous Act trick when they don't.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
The decks I've seen usually run selesnya charm to help deal with game 1 junk rites decks, depending on what the AoS chooses to exile you can either recover your cards while exiling the angel or blow them out by exiling the angel and the rest of the cards they put under her from their yard if they're greedy. Since you run Sublime I'd also think it would help you quite a bit to avoid getting chumped giving your guy trample and +2/+2 or even having that play available to stop them from burning your guy with your exalted triggers on the stack.
I toyed with bonfire a bit but I found since we're playing fatties what usually ends up happening is our guys either get removed or the opponent has to double block or chump. In any event they usually don't have enough guys to make bonfire really that needed, it's good but I'd rather just mizzium mortars their best blocking and swing forcing them to make poor blocks or get chunked. If we play hyper aggro decks act/pilar/unflinching can do a lot of work and boros reckoner + domri just eats those decks.
A deck that actually really beats us up is the golgari midrange deck, desecration demon is a really big problem as is messenger/thragtusk. They pack strong removal to deal with our big threats too, can draw a ton of cards off disciple of bolas. In this matchup selesnya charm does a lot of lifting as well.
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Restoration Angel
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Thundermaw Hellkite
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Arbor Elf
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 Domri Rade
Spells
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Advent of the Wurm
1 Selesnya Charm
Lands
12 Shocklands
3 of each check land
2 Forest
1 Gavony Township
3 Pillar of Flame
2 Blasphemous Act
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Unflinching Courage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Selesnya Charm
2 Rest in Piece
1 Thragtusk
I think I accidentally switched a Domri and a Selesnya Charm because I remember I had 3 Charms maindeck and then cut 1 and now I have 1 lol. Oh well. I'm not sure how I feel about 4 Domri. He's really good though. Like, really really good. I'm ambivalent about running arbor elves and 2 forests because every time I have forest arbor elf hand, I always have a reckoner in my hand and I'm like, for real... :((. Ruric Thar is the spot I've been playing around with to do cute things with. Last week, it was Aurelia, and she seemed sweet. But there've been a few america decks and mizzium mortars going around, so I figure Ruric would do a little better.
I can answer all of these by looking at what his deck is doing. I hope in the process some of the lines between the archetypes become clearer, and why.
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Goals of Midrange
First off we all know there are about a million ways to make midrange. The reason is there typically are 4 goals that all midrange decks have and everyone puts them at different priority.
1. Critical Mass
2. Board Control
3. Value Accumulation
4. Threat Density
A deck like Jund highly prioritizes Board Control. A deck like Birthing Pod highly values Value Accumulation. A deck like tokens highly values Critical Mass. A deck like Mythic Conscription values Threat Density. Usually it's possible to maximize 2 out of the 4, but beyond that it takes certain concessions.
Every format has some type of midrange deck. UW Tap out is midrange. Gx decks with mana dorks are midrange (even if they carry the moniker of aggro sometimes).
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Why Farseek can be a trap
Sometimes I feel this should go without saying but there is an extreme cost of playing Farseek in terms of tempo. When the most powerful cards in your deck are 3 drops, opting not to get on the board that turn has you backpedalling the rest of the game. If you Farseek you definitely want the 4 drop to follow. But it intrinsically makes your 1 drop less relevant and your 3 drop somewhat awkward. It does get you out ahead on mana, but you aren't attacking on T3. If your intent is to play up threat density or to critical mass not attacking or presenting board a turn earlier frees the opponent to begin developing theirs. Worse it doesn't put any deck that has inevitability on you at a reasonable speed, on a clock. Farseek is pretty much strictly worse against Junk Reanimator.
In essence playing Farseek moves you into playing more mass removal. And removal in general. You have to be concerned much more with the opponents hand. The reason is for it to be worthwhile you need the 4/5 drops to be that much more powerful (including their ability to stabilize) and you'd want a decent number of them to have them in hand. Unfortunately when you don't have farseek you've curved up too high.
As a practical example if you T2 a Smiter instead of a Farseek and aggro opponent has to burn a card to push through. If you play Farseek, they just drop more threats on the board. Now if you can sweep them you are fine, but if not when you drop your threat, the answer they didn't use the previous turn now gets them through you. Assuming your T3 play is better than a Smiter that is. Maybe you stabilize but you potentially take that much more damage to get there. It puts more pressure on you to have the right cards. Wheres if you have Smiter, then you follow up with a good 4, by the time you are at 5 you don't need to often be backpeddaling with Thragtusk you can be powering over with Thundermaw.
The above deck actually way more wants to play Boros Reckoner on T3 then it cares about playing those 4 drops on T4. Resto on T4? No.. Huntmaster T3 maybe. But then you wouldn't play all the great 3 drops. Play a mana dork and maybe you get Reckoner T2 and Huntmaster T3. It is emphasizing critical mass and threat density a bit more. Thundermaws close games out when you already either are winning on board in a race, or when the game is in a standstill. Domri does so as well. Farseek gets in the way of this.
If you play mana dorks just make sure you play enough T1 green sources.
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Utility lands in Naya
Gavony Township was the best go to land in GW(including Naya) decks for about a year so I wouldn't underestimate it. It lends itself to playing with cheap creatures that come with playing for threat density. Given these creatures make mana there is a good argument for Kessig Wolf Run as well. However Slayer's Stronghold while powerful and cheap only benefits from the haste in a deck like this at 6 mana or more. It's fine when you expect to be running into clear boards or to mess with race math, but it fills a less important need. Gavony lets you critical mass without playing out more threats. Kessig lets you push threat density without playing more threats. I'm not sure which one is best right now out of Gavony and Kessig. I'm usually in the Kessig camp, but a deck like this has the largest argument for Gavony. I actually probably think Gavony is the best land here due to the mana dorks. Sure if you cut for Farseek and play Thragtusk it isn't.
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Who's the Beatdown?
We are.. Not against aggro but most else. We don't have access to black removal, blue counterspells, discard like Sire or Rakdos' Return, draw like Sphinx's Rev, recursion like Unburial Rites. We win on the board. That's why we have no choice but to prioritize Threat Density and Critical Mass. We can not be a better Jund or Junk Rites. We can be valued right out of the game by Junk as they have more Resto's and Thragtusks than we can play. It doesn't mean we can't play value cards or board control. Domri/Reckoner isn't unlike Cunning Sparkmage/Collar. And there are matchups where Domri is like Triumph of Ferocity where that matters. We have the ability to prioritize different things in different matchups. But fundamentally we will never be a better Jund or Junk Rites so don't try to be.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
If you're set running cards like huntmaster/thrag/restoration angel/farseek then I'd say you need something at the top that wins the game for you when you land it. You'd really want to be running cards like AoS and Aurelia with cavern backup. You'd probably want to be also running cards like borderland ranger/searing spear to help you control the board/get there in the end.
This deck is about landing a couple early powerhouse cards that scream "answer me!" and keeping the pressure applied firmly. Regarding the list I posted earlier I've come to this as my next version of the deck.
2 Forest
4 Temple Garden
4 Stomping Ground
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Clifftop Retreat
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Rootbound Crag
1 Slayer's Stronghold
Creatures(27):
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Flinthoof Boar
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Experiment One
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Restoration Angel
4 Domri Rade
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Advent of the Wurm
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Boros Charm
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Skullcrack
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Thragtusk
2 Blasphemous Act
The mana base has shifted to 10 T1 green sources to better support the Avacyn's Pilgrim/experiment one line, Gavony got the boot simply due to the fact that it just wasn't doing an awful lot compared to slayers stronghold. Being able to turn cards like smiter/reckoner/boar into 5 hasty damage out of nowhere seemed to line up better with what this deck tries to accomplish over gavony which when it was good it was great but often just tapping for colorless mana. Very difficult to leave up 5 mana to threaten a gavony even, leaving up 3 to threaten slayers was more reasonable most games.
I've decided to test out 61 cards, I've seen number of lists running 23 lands with the same curve and I've seen a number of lists running 24 lands. I've found that 23 can work fine but you want 24 to ensure thundermaw happens when you need it to. I couldn't find a cut but maybe a copy of domri, hands with 2 domries and no power 2/3 drops can be sort of awkward - especially when domri +1 reveals another domri
The sideboard needs another card, I haven't quite found what it needs yet but unflinching courage/garruk PH/purify the grave/oblivion ring aren't out of the question yet. The 2 skullcracks seem out of place but they are there as a nod to my local meta which has a number of surprisingly strong maze's end decks. Those decks can sweep/fog you non-stop while doing something we can't interact with at all. It also helps vs the bant-enchant decks that will win via lifelink and reanimator decks relying on thragtusk to save them(haven't tested this yet though, might not be the right approach to this MU). I've been testing a single Sigarda to combat decks like Junk rites/Jund and other sweeper-less midrange strategies as well. I don't think cards like rest in peace/ground seal are quite good enough against rites strategies, I think we want to be getting in and killing them before they can do their thing. We've got blasphemous act/O-Ring/selesnya charm to help deal with AoS pretty well. Purify the grave might be the best card in that regards; I just hate taking a turn off against those decks because they often can play a straight up game just fine and their curve toppers can really slow us down from closing out the game.
As always comments are appreciated, I really want to get this deck tuned as much as possible as I've got all the pieces just about assembled in paper.
Yeah the mana is so annoying. This is large reason why I didn't play the deck pre DGM. It was only the success of equally bad mana bases that made me consider it. Naya during Alara had 9 T1 lands with 4 dorks (part of the reason Bant was better) and it got by. I think 4 really is at its limit. Which is why I'm trying Gyre Sage again. The mana was why Saito's list didn't play Pilgrim. Given the power level of cards I'm willing to risk it on Pilgrim. This is a worse Sage deck without Burning-Tree but those starts were much better into a 4 drop in Jund. You can still Voice Boar. You just can't attack that turn unless you opened with Pilgrim. Better play is choose one and attack most often but it's a good defensive play. You can still follow up with a 4 or 5 and realize you incidentally have another 4/5 on the table. Still double Sage hands are much more awkward so cutting one from the G/R shell seems reasonable.
The other reason I stayed away was no good 4 drops on curve. Voice I feel reconciled Sublime Archangel. I also thought Advent would be good. It's fine but not quite good enough on its own. Without black removal(or reasonable cheap white removal) opposing Reckoners are a real deal. You need your 4-5 drops to be able to ignore it. Ghor Clan on a 3/3 fights through it. But even Advent trades with it. Flying over it is great. Yes you can't throw someone exalted pumped on the ground at it, so it becomes a post combat play but it still demands removal.
----------------------
Know which card I'm the least impressed with these days? Loxodon Smiter. Don't get me wrong, this is a great card. Boros Reckoner just laughs at it as does Ghor Clan Rampager. All the card realistically does is cause a 2 for 1 against aggro when they don't have the Ghor Clan. How often do they not have the Ghor Clan? Ok I'm being a bit facetious. Everywhere else it's like a Flinthoof Boar without haste. It promotes board stalls better than most cards but it doesn't often win races. It runs into Thragtusk on an alpha strike just like the rest of them. Yes it beats Restoration Angel but not what it flickers back(save snap/augur). Count the number of times you get swept with a Voice out and follow up with a Smiter where if it'd been a boar you'd hit for 3 more and how often that 3 matters. In any sort of mirror battle if I wanted a cheap big creature I'd just play Gyre Sage. It lets me establish board faster and then sits conveniently as a 4/5.
Now it's possible you just play them all. But you risk playing something underpowered. How many 3's do you need. With mana accel in non utility slots I like 8. Mind you with only 4 dorks Boar is a legitimate 2. That is if you have a mountain. Again people who are trying to run Boar without basics are warned. The math again is roughly the same. I want 10 mountains. Experiment Jund acknowledged it was too hard on their mana and only ran 9.
Actually Experiment Jund is a good example of a deck that had a green 1 drop base and Mountains for Boar. I suggest checking it out. Cedric's Sage Jund has similar constraints. Boros Reckoner is what makes our lives harder. It makes the utility land difficult those decks run. At 24 lands you can probably risk it. I just figure the payoff isn't worth it. You have no real choice but play the forests. I had a 3rd and it bugged me enough I cut it and 2 arbor elves.
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So as I figure it the mana base starts with 12 shocks and 2 Forests. You need 4 more green sources min to reach 14 the minimum number of green for a deck like this. You need atleast 4 more white and red to support Voice and Hellkite your most intensive cards in each color (12 a piece, although 14 would be preferable). Reckoner needs 20 red or white sources. If you have Boar you need 1 or 2 more Mountains.
So out of the 9 or 10 remaining slots if you play Boar or more than 4 T1 G plays you are only working at most 8-9 Buddy lands. At 23 lands it limits you at 15, 14, 14 or 15 around at 24. Basically a Utility land isn't really on the table til 24 and probably not if you need the extra forests, since while Reckoner probably only needs 20 playing it on time is so important that keeping any hand with 2 non Reckoner lands is a huge liability. Even 1 sometimes.
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Since you obviously know way more about the mana bases than I do what do you think about this for my list?
1x Mountain
3x Clifftop Retreat
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple Garden
3x Sunpetal Grove
2x Rootbound Crag
4x Stomping Ground
1x Slayer's Stronghold
I've gone up to 10 T1 green sources/9 mountains to try and support my early game cards. In testing flinthoof boar has been awesome, I might try and squeeze the 4th into my deck - maybe cut a domri or a smiter. Smiter has been testing not the greatest but he's still very good against a lot of decks out there, uncounterable + slayer's stronghold makes me pretty good late game as well, also if lilianna tries to +1 he can come down free, doesn't die to searing spear either which has been nice.
3x Avacyn's Pilgrim
2x Arbor Elf
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Strangleroot Geist
4x Boros Reckoner
3x Loxodon Smiter
4x Huntmaster of the Fells
3x Ghor-Clan Rampager
3x Thundermaw Hellkite
Spells:
3x Selesnya Charm
2x Bonfire of the Damned
4x Domri Rade
4x Stomping Ground
3x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple Garden
3x Rootbound Crag
2x Clifftop Retreat
3x Sunpetal Grove
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Plains
1x Mountain
3x Pillar of Flame
2x Ray of Revelation
2x Witchbane Orb
2x Unflinching Courage
2x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2x Traitorous Blood
2x Rolling Temblor
Played this deck at FNM last night and ended up in 2nd place.
I lost to Bant HexProof for the finals and I felt that matchup was really lame and none interactive.
Does anyone have a suggestion for how to improve the matchup with Bant Hexproof?
Yeah don't get me wrong Smiter is good. I just don't know if he is as good as he could be. I'm constantly tinkering with stuff. It's possible the splits just aren't quite right etc, but I see no real problem with Smiter beyond this feeling I have that the deck is sometimes too slow. I am still working to remedy that. Smiter's anti aggro redundancy in such an aggro field is great though. It's more of a matter of numbers and what can we get away with. Smiter is by far the safe solid choice. Atleast in the interim you can gain something not playing something that everyone else is playing cause it is assumed you do. I played Jund Aggro with no Searing Spear but everyone played around it. You might just not got a Jund player +Lilliana on the same token (but probably not).
As for the mana. Yeah that looks good. At 24 I think you are reasonable. You probably are just going to want to keep a tally on how often the Slayer's Stronghold is good versus a liability but I could go either way on that. I do know why you like Slayers Stronghold so much though. Deficit of powerful 4 drops and to some degree 5's. A Smiter with haste is about on par with a 4 drop (4/4 haste is a decent 4 these days). You have the 2 Advents and the 4 Thundermaws, but outside of that you basically have to win with 2 and 3 drops. This is fine but it can lead to awkward games where you are just a slower version of Naya Aggro. That extra push is missing, and in so Slayer's seems like a way to accomplish that. I think it's an expensive way to push that but I realize the reason to keep the curve low with only 4 dorks. The other way to get that effect is just to play more powerful 4 drops. Like I wonder how much less important Stronghold is if 2 of those Smiters become Advent of the Wurm. I know that doesn't work with Domri etc.. I'm just saying in terms of threat power level.
Can you describe how the games went? I mean the matchup is never great. I've raced them before but Unflinching Courage draws make that hard. I tend to be on the side of slamming Ghor Clans and Thundermaws and hoping I win the die roll. What intrigues me is that a lot of your cards look like they are good set up defensively (the arguably more reasonable way to approach it). You have Bonfire/Rolling Temblor, Ray of Revelation. These are all good cards. You even have Huntmaster. I mean arguably you can have more of each but I think that is unreasonable slots wise. Is it that the hate cards didn't do enough? Did you not draw them? I'm interested because if it is as I suspect (need to kill the creature not the pumps) and the sweepers aren't doing it, then we perhaps we need to go back to the drawing board on how we buy time against them.
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Yeah.. although the intent of the thread was Farseek-less I'm pretty sure. It showed up after the recent success of these Aggressive Naya Midrange decks:
Like this one from SCG Last Week:
1 Arbor Elf
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Restoration Angel
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Voice of Resurgence
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Domri Rade
1 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Clifftop Retreat
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
Spells (5)
2 Selesnya Charm
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Ground Seal
3 Unflinching Courage
3 Boros Charm
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Selesnya Charm
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Mizzium Mortars
And these from the recent GP:
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Experiment One
3 Flinthoof Boar
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Restoration Angel
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Voice of Resurgence
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Domri Rade
1 Forest
3 Clifftop Retreat
2 Gavony Township
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
Spells (5)
3 Selesnya Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Thragtusk
2 Assemble the Legion
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
2 Unflinching Courage
2 Boros Charm
2 Blasphemous Act
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Restoration Angel
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Voice of Resurgence
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Domri Rade
1 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Clifftop Retreat
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Ground Seal
2 Unflinching Courage
3 Boros Charm
2 Searing Spear
3 Selesnya Charm
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Here's a recent list Gerry T has been playing(he top 8'd a Premier MTGO event):
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Experiment One
3 Flinthoof Boar
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Loxodon Smiter
3 Restoration Angel
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Domri Rade
Lands (24)
3 Forest
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Gavony Township
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
3 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest in Peace
4 Unflinching Courage
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Blasphemous Act
1 Bonfire of the Damned
PS... Don't get me started on how bad the manabases are for those GP decks. Actually let's quote what Brian Kibler has to say about it:
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I may be a little off chronologically here but I believe it started at SCG Dallas (is this the SCG you're referring to (5/26), because there were no Hellkite present in this deck) when Naya Aggro won which was essentially just a Zoo variation. It continued untill SCG BAL where three Naya Aggro decks placed in the top 8. Directly after this SCG however, Naya Aggro evolved and expanded it's curve to incorporate Thundermaw for late game reach. On mtgpulse.com for example, these decks with Thundermaw at the top of the curve, the same decks in this thread are pegged as Naya Aggro. Without Farseek and Tusk I don't see how these can be labeled Midrange in any way shape or form.
As for the mana, yeah it's a joke. I was harping on people trying to include two Forest and two colorless land when Reckoner was released in the old Midrange and Zoo threads but they wouldn't listen.
Spectral flight was a real problem as the deck is a little soft to flying. Spectral on a Geist is how I died first game. It was pretty much over since it was out of range for Seles charm.
After sideboard I brought in Ray, Rolling Temblor. The opponent just dropped a stalker then just threw a couple of equips on it and there was nothing I could do about it. The second game was longer but I flooded a bit so I wasn't able to close the game before the stalker came down and ended it.
Overall I would say the lack of sweepers hurts then softness to flying were major issues vs the deck.
Yeah.. I'm talking about SCG St Louis 6/09.. and Grand Prix Guadalajara 5/26.
There is the more aggro version that showed up at SCG earlier, but those are different. I guess we could see it as an evolution but both decks basically existed at the same time. These decks are midrange, just not the Rock. Same way like Naya during Alara Block was considered Midrange or Bant. People often never know where to categorize these decks. I tend to call them Aggressive Midrange. This is pretty much the archetype I've played in every Standard Format the last 4 years or so. Gx with Swords/Gavony and streamlined Birthing Pod lists (Kibler Pod), Fauna Shaman decks etc.. are all this archetype. Cards like Vengevine, Hero of Bladehold, Sublime Archangel, Baneslayer Angel, Knight of the Reliquary, Thundermaw Hellkite etc.. are staples.
The biggest difference between them and aggro is they are less concerned with just depleting the opponents life. Their focus is on critical massing on board. Ie being able to present 20 damage on board fastest. Usually that means ramp on T1 instead of Wild Nacatl so to speak. It's a subtle difference. These decks don't typically Swarm per say but play increasingly more powerful threats before the opponent can keep up. This also allows them to have more powerful threats they can slow roll against control. But it completely changes the curve and the tempo of the decks. You can't just add a bunch of 4 and 5 drops and expect your deck to function properly. The reason the decks are still midrange is that they do clearly swap defined rolls. They clearly play control (although it's board control with bodies) against aggro, and they clearly play aggro against control. The balance point of where they sit is usually dependent on the speed of the Ramp deck in the format.
This is also usually the type of deck Brian Kibler plays so I don't know if you just categorize them as aggro and call it a day. I guess you can be pretty different the way the game tempo plays.
Ok.. I mean you can play Resto but I don't think that helps much. Basically the sweepers were too slow and you need answers for the enchantment. I wonder if we have to consider just playing more Ray of Revelations and just have to draw them to win against them. I'm gathering you can hold on board against everything else. My concern was that it might not be enough against Geist of St Traft but if you are on the Huntmaster plan it's probably alright. I wonder if Ray is enough.. maybe like 2 Rays and a Paraselene is worth considering etc..
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Well normally how I would deal with flyers is with Domri -2, or Seles Charm. Resto would synergize with Huntmaster and Thundermaw, but it also raises the mana curve which I'm not too delighted about. I don't like adding Resto at the moment.
Glaring spotlight could be an option from the sideboard. It would allow Domri to do what he needs vs agro decks and be a removal spell. The non-combo with Domri +1 kind of stinks but more often then not I'm having to -2 Domri vs agro to help clear up the board.
Yeah the enchantments pump so it's not like Resto probably will even live on the defense. The tricky part with Spotlight is you still need the removal spell. Like Domri is fine if you get them early enough. But Geist plus Unflinching Courage might be hard to time. Since you need the 4/4 on the board on the board already and the Angel takes out Domri. I do like that Spotlight is a Overrun of sorts, but I wonder if it's good enough. It's still amusing. If it was good in any other matchup it'd be considerable after the first 2 Rays.. I wonder if it's good enough against Jund as a Faith's Shield of sorts.
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Nah.. really just play good cards and get there. I think maybe the 3rd Ray is essential but I think there might be room for something else. Electrickery is looking much more appealing to me in this deck than other decks. Mainly that x/1's tend to steal our thunder. Bonfire covers most other things but we have to be able to deal with a T1 Champion, Stromkirk Noble, Experiment One (to a lesser degree). Their Burnign Trees don't matter all that much. Similarly you have to answer the Invisible Stalker immediately before it's enchanted. The reason Junk Reanimator can be hard is their mana acceleration. I can live with a T5 unburial rites.. T4 can be backbreaking but they need to hit well for it. But if you can make sure they aren't ahead on mana it doesn't matter anymore. Similarly with Hexproof a T3 Geist into a T4 enchantment is slow enough especially with the Rays. I didn't think Electrickery was great since Bonfire for one covers it a lot.. But it's instant speed. Also with Blasphemous Act as an option for quick kill/reset I think it allows changing into a different beast of a deck.
I'm considering the following sideboard right now. Notice the cut of graveyard hate. Mainly Acidic Slime makes it pretty bad I find against Reanimator. We can't win the long game regularly. Keeping them off mana for cheap is big and then playing all the reach cards. The other good matchup for it is Aristocrats but I think I have that covered too (I have 3 Bonfires and 4 Thundermaws main).
3 Boros Charm
3 Ray of Revelation
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Blasphemous Act
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UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I can't agree with this. You can have a midrange deck without farseek. There's a very different feel between this and aggro. Playstyle is very important in the distinction. Mana dorks are essentially farseek, but instead of 2 mana to 4, it's 1 to 3. It's more potent than farseek, but disruptive with relative ease. It may seem aggressive, but to me, this deck starts out aggressive, expecting the opponent to have answers and finding their lines of plays, but then shifts to be more resilient while the opponent is finding said answers to an aggressive start. A lot hands with this deck are aggro hands if the turn 1 dork isn't dealt with. If it is, then it just wants to get to the mid game with its spells.
When it comes to aggro, consistency is crucial. It's probably the most important thing in deck building. This deck isn't particularly reliant on consistency with the 1 ofs and 3 ofs and etc. I am probably all wrong about it, but it seems to be working for me.