I can't agree with this. You can have a midrange deck without farseek. There's a very different feel between this and aggro. Playstyle is very important in the distinction. Mana dorks are essentially farseek, but instead of 2 mana to 4, it's 1 to 3. It's more potent than farseek, but disruptive with relative ease. It may seem aggressive, but to me, this deck starts out aggressive, expecting the opponent to have answers and finding their lines of plays, but then shifts to be more resilient while the opponent is finding said answers to an aggressive start. A lot hands with this deck are aggro hands if the turn 1 dork isn't dealt with. If it is, then it just wants to get to the mid game with its spells.
When it comes to aggro, consistency is crucial. It's probably the most important thing in deck building. This deck isn't particularly reliant on consistency with the 1 ofs and 3 ofs and etc. I am probably all wrong about it, but it seems to be working for me.
It's reasonable for you not to agree, I mean, like I said the lines have been blurred. I was just expecting to come and here and talk about some sweet ramp into Aurelia and not about the deck I'm currently running. The truth is, regardless of what we want to call the Farseek-less variants, they sit firmly in between Naya Blitz and Naya Midrange (Farseek). I believe to avoid confusion it was dubbed Naya Aggro.
Now. IMO, it has much more in common with Zoo or Saito's list (no Farseek, low-ish CMC, aggression over stabilization) than it does with the ramp oriented Naya Midrange builds. To take this one step further, I even believe it has more in common with the older aggro decks, Sledgehammer and B/R Aggro, that turned to Thundermaw because they wanted mid/late-game reach. When you scrub Farseek and replace Thragtusk with Thundermaw I think it speaks volumes about your decks motives. I can't think of one Midrange build that can support G that doesn't include those cards.
Anyway, as ryansolid stated, the differences between Naya Midrange/Aggro/Zoo are extremely subtle..maddeningly subtle. It's not big deal I can adjust. I just hope I get some feedback if I start dropping some really Midrange-y builds around here.
It's reasonable for you not to agree, I mean, like I said the lines have been blurred. I was just expecting to come and here and talk about some sweet ramp into Aurelia and not about the deck I'm currently running. The truth is, regardless of what we want to call the Farseek-less variants, they sit firmly in between Naya Blitz and Naya Midrange (Farseek). I believe to avoid confusion it was dubbed Naya Aggro.
Now. IMO, it has much more in common with Zoo or Saito's list (no Farseek, low-ish CMC, aggression over stabilization) than it does with the ramp oriented Naya Midrange builds. To take this one step further, I even believe it has more in common with the older aggro decks, Sledgehammer and B/R Aggro, that turned to Thundermaw because they wanted mid/late-game reach. When you scrub Farseek and replace Thragtusk with Thundermaw I think it speaks volumes about your decks motives. I can't think of one Midrange build that can support G that doesn't include those cards.
Anyway, as ryansolid stated, the differences between Naya Midrange/Aggro/Zoo are extremely subtle..maddeningly subtle. It's not big deal I can adjust. I just hope I get some feedback if I start dropping some really Midrange-y builds around here.
This is a lot like Saito's Naya list. It replaces it's position. I never considered that Aggro (no 1 drops, curve starts with Sage/Burning-Tree). There are basically 3 popular variants of late..
There is also (more popular a few months back):
Naya Ramp - (Farseek, Resto Angel, Thragtusk)
Sledgehammer Red is an interesting comparison I like as I always felt that was the greenest mono red deck I'd ever seen. To me this style of midrange decks look a lot more like these decks (keep in mind these formats were less mana greedy):
As for the mana. Yeah that looks good. At 24 I think you are reasonable. You probably are just going to want to keep a tally on how often the Slayer's Stronghold is good versus a liability but I could go either way on that. I do know why you like Slayers Stronghold so much though. Deficit of powerful 4 drops and to some degree 5's. A Smiter with haste is about on par with a 4 drop (4/4 haste is a decent 4 these days). You have the 2 Advents and the 4 Thundermaws, but outside of that you basically have to win with 2 and 3 drops. This is fine but it can lead to awkward games where you are just a slower version of Naya Aggro. That extra push is missing, and in so Slayer's seems like a way to accomplish that. I think it's an expensive way to push that but I realize the reason to keep the curve low with only 4 dorks. The other way to get that effect is just to play more powerful 4 drops. Like I wonder how much less important Stronghold is if 2 of those Smiters become Advent of the Wurm. I know that doesn't work with Domri etc.. I'm just saying in terms of threat power level.
Yea the 4 drop spot is really tricky, I found restoration angel sort of lacking but it is a very consistent damage dealer. I really like having both resto and advent together because leaving 4 up isn't necessarily a signal to my opponent that either one is coming down at the end of their turn. Also about slayer's stronghold, the +2/0 is very relevant in some unusual circumstances, there was a game where I gave my opponents reckoner +2/0 and then used my selesnya charm to deal with it cleanly. Also there was a game where I saced a guy to tap a desecration demon making it 7/7, moved to main 2 gave the demon +2/0 with slayer's then used domri with my reckoner to fight redirecting 9 back to my opponent to close out the game. Not the most usual of circumstances but the +2/0 actually really helps quite a bit, also for 6 mana a smiter becoming 6 hasty damage is very real. Even a pilgrim crashing in for 3 out of nowhere can help out.
What are the realistic 4 drops this deck can run that tie in with the strategy?
restoration angel
Advent of the Wurm
Huntmaster (seems like more of a defense card)
hellrider (seems outclassed a bit and we don't flood the board weakening him slightly)
Ghor-clan rampager (I like this guy but a 4/4 trampler for 4 isn't very exciting, the bloodrush is nice but I often want to pressure the board and getting blown out by selesnya charm/abrupt decay/putrify/etc is pretty devestating)
Is aurelia good enough in the side? I could see her coming in vs true midrange thragtusk decks to really hammer home the damage and close out the games. Maybe cutting 2 thrags from the side in favor of 2 aurelias?
Ghor Clan is my favorite but it isn't really a 4. It still is just pushing winning with 2/3 drops. Short of opposing Smiter(and Reckoner, but Reckoner is always the biggest in combat) it is a reasonable 4. I dislike Hellrider in the deck. Advent, Resto, and Sublime are all real 4's (well Resto is more of a 6). Advent and Sublime are the ones I want to slam T3.
Slayers as a way to make the opponents creatures larger for Reckoner fights is cool. Although Ghor Clan on Reckoner can have similar effect. Having played with Rancor I remember never being impressed with the Selesnya Charm trick. At 2 more mana it starts getting steep. And like Rancor it isn't really costing you a card. But I suppose it's more incidental which is good(where Rancor means playing Rancor in your list).
----------Aside
Truthfully with Selesnya Charm I am always hoping for it to be better than it is. The creature mode is near irrelevant; the pump mode is fine, but it doesnt have the Ghor Clan ability to send a 3/3 through Reckoner without trading(non-creature for Domri); and as removal it is narrow. It doesn't really guarentee much beyond stopping Thundermaws and Sublime Archangels. Exiling Thragtusk can be irrelevant. You can lose games to Rites on Slime and Tusk without it ever mattering. It kills Olivia usually after significant damage has been done. Most Volcanic Strength targets go under it.Not that there are much better options. It keeps popping in and out of my 75. It always seems like a card I would want, but every time I have it I want to cut it unless its pump mode is particularly good at the time. Mind you Im probably cutting an Electrickery for it. I think it needs to be in the 75 so people respect it.
------------
On a another note, hard to believe how much I like Borderland Ranger right now. This is a greedy mana format but being able to cast spells is great. Bonfire loves Borderland. These decks should have 25 lands by all estimations as far as I'm concerned but there is a reason for density we don't. 23 would be fine with 8 dorks but we can't support them. Even 24 is a bit of a stretch with 4. Decks with this curve traditionally want like 30 mana sources. Gyre Sage is ok way of getting over the deficit but is awkward in multiples without BTE. Borderland is that nice push on low mana hands. So many times I curve out at 3 lands at 23. Going to 24 is pretty similar but I'm much more apt to flood and miss off Domri it feels. Borderland is a nice mix. Not terribly aggressive but ensures you hit 5. Doing a 2/2 split with Sage feels good. That leaves me 14 1/2 drops, meaning I should have atleast one early every game. But it also gives me 31 mana sources. Only 6 of the creatures are truly weak bodies (Pilgrim, Borderland) as Sage and Boar are respectable. Leaving me with only 29 slots(6 + 23 lands) which don't contain powerful effects. Voice is a bit weak before it comes back mind you, Domri doesn't always hit (though 31 creatures help) so there is some power loss, but the trade off is that Bonfire should be crippling. This should allow you to still buy time and get them in range for the kill.
I like pillar a lot more than spear by a long shot. Opposing voice's and geralf messanger decks with blood artist and tragic slip are pretty hard to beat. Pillar is a house right now.
Mortars takes care of Smiters and angels and Olivias and can be overloaded to wipe a board full of aggro creatures. IMHO it just does more work than pillar.
Renounce the guilds with reckoner and voice and huntmaster and smiter...... Hmmm.... Pillar has been an all star for me, but my meta kinda requires it.
Pillar is better still. You have mortars for olivia. I haven't tested the jund match up, now that I think about it. I don't think I care much about olivia. My worst fear is a mircaled bonfire.
----------Aside Truthfully with Selesnya Charm I am always hoping for it to be better than it is. The creature mode is near irrelevant; the pump mode is fine, but it doesnt have the Ghor Clan ability to send a 3/3 through Reckoner without trading(non-creature for Domri); and as removal it is narrow. It doesn't really guarentee much beyond stopping Thundermaws and Sublime Archangels. Exiling Thragtusk can be irrelevant. You can lose games to Rites on Slime and Tusk without it ever mattering. It kills Olivia usually after significant damage has been done. Most Volcanic Strength targets go under it.Not that there are much better options. It keeps popping in and out of my 75. It always seems like a card I would want, but every time I have it I want to cut it unless its pump mode is particularly good at the time. Mind you Im probably cutting an Electrickery for it. I think it needs to be in the 75 so people respect it.
I agree that charm isn't the best thing but it gives the deck options vs Angel of Serenity, if that thing comes down early via rites it's just a giant road block that we have no answer to. The charm lets us deal with it in a number of ways, if we aren't tapped out when they drop it it's very possible to just win the game if they are greedy and put a bunch of their own stuff under it from their graveyard by exiling AoS with her ETB trigger on the stack. Just exiling her straight up is pretty good too, it takes her out of the game so she cannot be unburial rites right back into play the next turn.
Also the charm gives us some play vs thragtusk, it's not the most efficient thing but exiling the front half the thragtusk and then using domri to fight smiter on the beast still allows is to get in for 4 and make them answer us next turn. Also if they try to blink a thragtusk we can exile him in response, getting him out of the game is pretty important I find. I almost never use the other abilities so maybe the card should be in the sideboard but game 1 vs rites it's been so huge for me I can't push myself to cut it.
On a side note I think purify the grave is our best answer to rites decks, ground seal/DRS/Rest in peace are all very slow answers that lose to slime and really slow us down. I really like how the card can be re-used, is instant speed (can basically cost them the game if you exile a thrag/AoS in response when they're relying on it to hold the line for them) and only costs 1 white mana. The deck operates with a lot of 3 drops and coincidentally t3/t4 is about the time they'll be bringing back a fattie to hold us off so leaving up a single W mana source isn't much of a tell.
Yes I agree with Jb231 here.. Those enchantments don't work anymore. Just not worth the time. Honestly hate in general is hard right now, I'd prefer a creature since with Slime they are more more likely to just null the enchantment. Not to mention we set to curve out to like 4 mana with 24 lands. Slime our lands is actually really painful right now. You wouldn't think so but we can't win that match without expensive spells. That's sort of why I like Ranger a bit more as I've been saying. Slime punishes our greed. And they play more dorks to get ahead. I think racing is a much better prospect.
The problem with Angel isn't just it being there though.. It's the Tempo loss. Honestly you Selesnya Charm you still might be screwed. Especially if they manage a board. Unless you got Thundermaw under it and already knocked them down it still isn't enough. My plan has been Blasphemous Act or Boros Charm (for double Strike with Ghor Clan/Sublime) and just try to one shot them. They don't play enough instant removal. I attack their mana development to slow them down while I try to get them in range.
Which brings me to that list. It doesn't beat Reanimator.. If you are fine with that's ok. It is about the best incarnation against aggro, and it's control matchup will be ok, assuming Domri is enough (although he is not as good as pre aetherling). Junk I'd want Bonfire somewhere. Generally I agree Pillar is better than Spear but I don't like either. It's not like we care about Voice with our creature suite. We rule these on board conflicts. It's really mirror tech and might be just not enough anyway. Junk Aristocrats is a consideration but I put Bonfire higher there.
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So the sideboard I've been working with is starting to look like this:
2 Pillar of Flame -> cut for 2 bonfires or 2 electrickeries?
2 Boros Charm -> supreme verdict decks/decks we want to win vs quickly.
2 Ray of Revelation -> bant-enchant/1 copy vs UWR to kill assemble the legion
2 Skullcrack -> maze's end fog deck/sphinx's decks
1 Oblivion Ring -> boros reckoner/catch all card
1 Assemble the Legion -> control/midrange stuggles against this, however it's slow
1 Aurelia the warleader -> allows us to crush midrange strategies not sure yet however
2 Blasphemous Act -> good card all around vs lots of strategies
1 Purify the grave -> Junk rites decks
Maybe something like this:
2 Bonfire
1 electrickery
2 Purify the grave
2 Blasphemous Act
2 Boros Charm
2 Ray of Revelation
1 O-Ring
1 Aurelia the warleader
2 Skullcrack
The sideboarding is tricky because this deck cannot afford to waste a lot of time, if we bring in a card it has to be cheap and extremely efficient.
I prefer rest in peace not just for reanimator decks, but for aristocrat/undying/blood artist decks too. It is very very good against them.
I agree. However, I think both decks are hard matchups for Naya in classic sense. Reanimator is just the current version of the ramp deck in the format and these type of decks have always had issues with those. I actually think Reanimator is the worst matchup for this deck. That's largely why it disappeared before and only started to come back. Having a Naya list beat aggro is trivial by comparison. Mind you GW does have the tools to beat Reanimator(it was the best deck against it in the fall), but those cards are not great against aggro. It's really a matter of balance.
Aristocrats and Reanimator do share some cards and cards that work well against them. I think it's important to find slots that cater to both together. In that sense Rest in Peace looks decent. The problem I'm finding is it is almost irrelevant against Reanimator. That the tempo loss, the actual cost of including the card is worse than the effect. That exchange just buys them time. It's great against the Aristocrats mind you. That deck needs to critical mass so it can slow them down even with an answer, and we can do more with our mana. What cards are great in both matchups? Bonfire of the Damned, Thundermaw Hellkite, Ghor Clan Rampager. I would add Blasphemous Act against Act 3 (just watch out for Blood Artist), not so much for Act 2, but it's an additional way to combo off against Reanimator, and is a much better Tempo reset than a single Selesnya Charm often. Electrickery is pretty decent against both as is Boros Reckoner. Any card that allows you to race really is pretty much. Like Sublime Archangel might seem weak against Lingering Souls but if you find a way to punch through the board stalls usually lead to huge damage against the Aristocrats. The low removal in Reanimator makes it like having more Thundermaws(or rather our own Falkenrath).
Pillar is still probably my favourite answer to Blood Artist because it's cheap. Realistically once a sac outlet is only is pretty hard short of multiple sweepers to get anywhere.
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I played 2 FNM's (one at 1pm - 4pm and one at 7pm - 11pm) this past Friday. Both ran a slightly different version of this deck. (This is what I ended up with on Saturday after some trades / tweaking).
Earlier FNM:
The deck-list for this event was:
-1 voice of resurgence
+2 Experiment One
+2 Flinthoof Boar
-2 Huntmaster of the Fells
-1 Bonfire of the Damned
I went 2-2. Here's how the games went:
Match 1: Esper Control Game 1: Get some punches in until we both have few cards in hand. T2 Thalia after his T1 Hallowed Fountain. Thalia does a TON of work this game. Usual control shenanigans, Azorius Charms and Supreme Verdict. Eventually he taps out for Obzedat which I promptly Selesnya charm and my follow up Hellkite cleans up. Game 2: Aetherling. No way to deal. I lose. Game 3: Again Thalia makes an appearance and does significant stuff, but it's my boarded-in Assemble the Legion that finishes the game.
Match 2: BWG Tokens Game 1: The guy I'm playing is a notoriously good player in my city, having top 8 a number of Grand Prix events in Canada. Basically I run out of steam while his Intangible Virtue Advent of the Wurm with Vault of the Archangel / Gavony really do work. I recall making a few critical misplays but I forget what they were now. I'm going to start taking notes when I FNM. Game 2: Basically the same story as last game, except he boarded O-Ring's and Unflinching Courage. This guy really messed me up. I'm sure that I made a bunch of errors in my play.
Match 3: Esper Control Game 1: He gets nice draws and can delay until Aetherling. My board presence is puny so racing isn't an option. I can't find an answer and promptly lose! Game 2: Again, nice draws. He boards in more removal and again, Aetherling is there to ruin my day. Blegh.
Match 4: Simic Control Game 1: This guy's deck is pretty janky... he basically Plasm Capture's into big guys like Vorapede but it didn't really work out because I just fought his big guys with Reckoner. Game 2: Another blow-out in my favour. With no pillar of flame, Voice of Resurgence carries me to victory easily.
Later FNM
Decklist for this event:
-2 Huntermaster of the Fells
+2 Experiment One
I ended up going 3-2, with my losses coming from:
Selesnya Aggro - Game 1: I mull to 5, end up with no green mana, lose horribly to a t2 loxodon smiter t3 silverblade pairing t4 sublime archangel t5 unflinching courage.
Game 2: Played a hand with 2 Domri's (afraid again of mulling to unplayable hand) and get blown out by his nut-hand and t5 top deck of sigarda.
my other loss was against Maze's End Turbo Fog. I lost 0-2 vs ****ing turbo fog. My only out in game 1 was using Domri and fighting a reckoner vs ANYTHING, but I couldn't find one, and g2 he ended up drawing 80 fogs and riot controlling to 80+ life. I think this match-up is doable without skullcrack, but having one would have made life soooo much easier.
I went 2-0 in all my other games, including vs monogreen aggro (ez), B/W Tokens (ez) and superfriends (which was pretty ez but I think I had Thalia each game and he Lilianna of the Veil'd me a smiter twice).
Notes
- The 1-of Thalia is surprisingly relevant. Every game she came out she definitely edged the game in my direction. The only time this hurt me was when I got stuck on 3 mana and was unable to play Domri.
- I never got a chance to play my 1 Bonfire. The only game it would've helped would have been against the mono-green, which was a blow-out in my favour anyway.
- The deck I actually played didn't have the huntmasters - instead I played 2 Flinthoof Boar. I found this card basically useless in this deck. T1 I would shock myself for Pilgrim then T2 Reckoner or Smiter or Voice. T3 I would play either Domri or Smiter / Reckoner. Never did I find Boar making any impact. As well, in my post-FNM testing, Huntmaster saved my ass a number of times (tested vs gruul agro and control). He also works much better with Resto Angel and I find him to be a natural precursor to Hellkite.
- Selesnya Charm is unbelievably good. It deals with a wide range of big threats, from Obzedat to opposing Hellkites, or when your opponent uses ghor-clan or a pump spell. It also lets you push in for a lot more damage. I'm not sure if rancor or ghor-clan is better here, but I found the removal from the charm very handy.
- Domri Rade is also unbelievably good. It got me soooooo far in the matches vs Control. I would have had 0% chance without him (pre-board) but with him I give it a 50/50 chance that you can pull it out. The ability to regain some tempo after board wipes is incredibly useful. Now I just need an answer to Aetherling!
All in all I really enjoy playing this deck. I believe my losses (apart from the one vs Selesnya aggro where I basically died because of bad hands) all came from my own misplays. I think this deck has a fair chance against anything in a bo3.
So how do you beat Junk Reanimator with Naya Midrange? I'm taking a midrange deck to an SCG IQ this weekend, and I'd like to tailor the sideboard to beat reanimator, which is everywhere here.
Be luckier than they are I am starting to think. I haven't played the matchup at all, but it's hard to interact with the deck outside of selesnya charm. Boarding in rest in peace helps, but they can just cast their creatures the normal way. I think one of the issues is that people don't know how to play rest in peace properly. You don't just run it out there asap. They can easily play around rest in peace if they see it hit the board. If you wait until they start filling up their graveyard then you cast later in turns when you start running out of creatures to cast. They are going to sideboard as if you are siding in rest in peace regardless, so the arguments between rest in peace vs purify is pretty moot. Rest in peace is just better overall not just against reanimator, but against blood artist decks and snapcaster decks.
So how do you beat Junk Reanimator with Naya Midrange? I'm taking a midrange deck to an SCG IQ this weekend, and I'd like to tailor the sideboard to beat reanimator, which is everywhere here.
In my testing I try to just take the most aggressive line I can and try to plow threw them quickly, every point of damage matters. I try to blow thragtusk up as soon as he hits the board as blinking him once is brutal. Cards like bonfire/electrickery/Purify the grave/blasphemous act seem pretty good, even boros charm is 4 damage to the face which can help. I take out a lot of the slower cards like domri/mizzium mortars depending on which version they run.
I think the reanimator MU depends on which early game card package they run, I used to play the deck myself and they could have lingering souls/centaur healer/fiend hunter/smiter/etc - these are the cards that will really tell you how to get in early game. Later on I think you have to rely on thundermaw to push threw the last points. I can't stress how much I think purify the grave is the better option over the 2 mana enchantments, we cannot afford to take a turn off because the late game we won't beat thragtusks/restos/vault/gavony/AoS package. Save selesnya charm to stop a thrag blink/AoS/Ghost council.
Yeah Reanimator is the whole reason I play the list as I do. I run maindeck Ghor Clan, Sublime Archangel, Thundermaw Hellkite, and Bonfire of the Damned. I was taking them down pretty straight forward in Jund without any non dork killing removal (Power of Falkenrath Aristocrat plus the same cards). Same applies here. You need to find ways to do damage. For me Sublime Archangel is right up there. Boros Charm for double strike and Ghor Clan are all part of it. Mana ramp helps too. Can't be playing stuff like Huntmaster main if you want any chance game 1.
I like BBD's list I just felt he's still relying on Rest in Peace too much out of the board. I think the deck needs to be even more aggressive, hence my move down to Flinthoof Boars from Smiters and Sublimes from Restoration Angels. Playing Resto is like playing a 6 drop in that matchup. If you watch him play he sides Smiter out a lot.. (correctly) I watch so many times where Smiter just means that much less damage over a game. From a damage point of view it takes Smiter 3 attacks to catch up to Boar. Not that BBD's mana is great for Boar. I find Blasphemous Act shennanigans actually better than trying to play any Rest in Peace type of game.
I found watching that BBD got a decent number of tapland draws. 10 Buddies is high and 10 T1 G is low for his 6. If you run good it's atleast a respectable manabase though. I just think he could be using his sideboard a bit better.
I challenge anyone to try the more aggressive take and see how it completely changes the match dynamics and what you need in a sideboard. Even against decks like the Aristocrats. Keeping constant pressure on is huge difference to how the deck plays. I think BBD is in the right direction I just think it needs to go even further that way.
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It's reasonable for you not to agree, I mean, like I said the lines have been blurred. I was just expecting to come and here and talk about some sweet ramp into Aurelia and not about the deck I'm currently running. The truth is, regardless of what we want to call the Farseek-less variants, they sit firmly in between Naya Blitz and Naya Midrange (Farseek). I believe to avoid confusion it was dubbed Naya Aggro.
Now. IMO, it has much more in common with Zoo or Saito's list (no Farseek, low-ish CMC, aggression over stabilization) than it does with the ramp oriented Naya Midrange builds. To take this one step further, I even believe it has more in common with the older aggro decks, Sledgehammer and B/R Aggro, that turned to Thundermaw because they wanted mid/late-game reach. When you scrub Farseek and replace Thragtusk with Thundermaw I think it speaks volumes about your decks motives. I can't think of one Midrange build that can support G that doesn't include those cards.
Anyway, as ryansolid stated, the differences between Naya Midrange/Aggro/Zoo are extremely subtle..maddeningly subtle. It's not big deal I can adjust. I just hope I get some feedback if I start dropping some really Midrange-y builds around here.
This is a lot like Saito's Naya list. It replaces it's position. I never considered that Aggro (no 1 drops, curve starts with Sage/Burning-Tree). There are basically 3 popular variants of late..
Blitz - Human based (Champion, Experiment, Mayor, Frontline)
Aggro - (Experiment, Dryad Militant, Strangleroot Geist, Reckoner)
Aggressive Midrange - (Avacyn's Pilgrim, Reckoner, Thundermaw Hellkite)
There is also (more popular a few months back):
Naya Ramp - (Farseek, Resto Angel, Thragtusk)
Sledgehammer Red is an interesting comparison I like as I always felt that was the greenest mono red deck I'd ever seen. To me this style of midrange decks look a lot more like these decks (keep in mind these formats were less mana greedy):
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Gyre Sage
4 Hellrider
4 Loxodon Smiter
1 Thragtusk
3 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Domri Rade
Lands (24)
3 Clifftop Retreat
2 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
3 Boros Charm
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Nearheath Pilgrim
2 Pacifism
2 Rest in Peace
4 Avacyn’s Pilgrim
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Blade Splicer
2 Borderland Ranger
1 Fiend Hunter
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Nearheath Pilgrim
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Restoration Angel
3 Strangleroot Geist
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Zealous Conscripts
2 Birthing Pod
2 Dismember
Land(24):
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Copperline Gorge
6 Forest
3 Gavony Township
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Rootbound Crag
2 Sunpetal Grove
1 Acidic Slime
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Combust
1 Crushing Vines
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Strangleroot Geist
2 Sword of War and Peace
1 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Zealous Conscripts
4 Copperline Gorge
9 Forest
2 Kessig Wolf Run
5 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
Creatures(23):
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Daybreak Ranger
2 Hellrider
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Strangleroot Geist
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sword of War and Peace
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Acidic Slime
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Batterskull
2 Dismember
2 Incinerate
2 Manabarbs
1 Naturalize
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Urabrask the Hidden
8 Forest
4 Gavony Township
4 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Sunpetal Grove
Creatures(22):
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Blade Splicer
2 Geist-Honored Monk
4 Hero of Bladehold
2 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Mortarpod
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Overrun
3 Elspeth Tirel
3 Garruk Relentless
2 Celestial Purge
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Naturalize
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Sword of War and Peace
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Acidic Slime
1 Baneslayer Angel
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Cunning Sparkmage
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Hero of Oxid Ridge
1 Inferno Titan
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Oxidda Scrapmelter
1 Precursor Golem
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sunblast Angel
1 Sylvan Ranger
4 Vengevine
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
Lands(25)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Copperline Gorge
2 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Plains
4 Raging Ravine
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Rootbound Crag
2 Acidic Slime
1 Basilisk Collar
3 Condemn
2 Cunning Sparkmage
2 Gideon Jura
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Sun Titan
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Obstinate Baloth
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Cunning Sparkmage
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Vengevine
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Realm Razer
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Behemoth Sledge
2 Oblivion Ring
Land(26)
3 Raging Ravine
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Arid Mesa
6 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Mystifying Maze
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Rootbound Crag
2 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Arid Mesa
4 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
4 Plains
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Sunpetal Grove
Creatures(25)
4 Baneslayer Angel
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Ranger of Eos
1 Scute Mob
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Woolly Thoctar
3 Ajani Vengeant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Burst Lightning
4 Celestial Purge
4 Goblin Ruinblaster
4 Great Sable Stag
4 Fire-Lit Thicket
7 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Karplusan Forest
2 Mountain
2 Treetop Village
Creatures(28):
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Chameleon Colossus
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Deus of Calamity
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Firespout
4 Lash Out
3 Tarfire
1 Cloudthresher
2 Firespout
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Loxodon Warhammer
2 Primal Command
1 Shivan Dragon
2 Squall Line
1 Sulfurous Blast
There's more but that's those are the big ones from the last 5 years. Some are more aggro than others but they have that same sort of tempo feel.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Yea the 4 drop spot is really tricky, I found restoration angel sort of lacking but it is a very consistent damage dealer. I really like having both resto and advent together because leaving 4 up isn't necessarily a signal to my opponent that either one is coming down at the end of their turn. Also about slayer's stronghold, the +2/0 is very relevant in some unusual circumstances, there was a game where I gave my opponents reckoner +2/0 and then used my selesnya charm to deal with it cleanly. Also there was a game where I saced a guy to tap a desecration demon making it 7/7, moved to main 2 gave the demon +2/0 with slayer's then used domri with my reckoner to fight redirecting 9 back to my opponent to close out the game. Not the most usual of circumstances but the +2/0 actually really helps quite a bit, also for 6 mana a smiter becoming 6 hasty damage is very real. Even a pilgrim crashing in for 3 out of nowhere can help out.
What are the realistic 4 drops this deck can run that tie in with the strategy?
restoration angel
Advent of the Wurm
Huntmaster (seems like more of a defense card)
hellrider (seems outclassed a bit and we don't flood the board weakening him slightly)
Ghor-clan rampager (I like this guy but a 4/4 trampler for 4 isn't very exciting, the bloodrush is nice but I often want to pressure the board and getting blown out by selesnya charm/abrupt decay/putrify/etc is pretty devestating)
Is aurelia good enough in the side? I could see her coming in vs true midrange thragtusk decks to really hammer home the damage and close out the games. Maybe cutting 2 thrags from the side in favor of 2 aurelias?
Slayers as a way to make the opponents creatures larger for Reckoner fights is cool. Although Ghor Clan on Reckoner can have similar effect. Having played with Rancor I remember never being impressed with the Selesnya Charm trick. At 2 more mana it starts getting steep. And like Rancor it isn't really costing you a card. But I suppose it's more incidental which is good(where Rancor means playing Rancor in your list).
----------Aside
Truthfully with Selesnya Charm I am always hoping for it to be better than it is. The creature mode is near irrelevant; the pump mode is fine, but it doesnt have the Ghor Clan ability to send a 3/3 through Reckoner without trading(non-creature for Domri); and as removal it is narrow. It doesn't really guarentee much beyond stopping Thundermaws and Sublime Archangels. Exiling Thragtusk can be irrelevant. You can lose games to Rites on Slime and Tusk without it ever mattering. It kills Olivia usually after significant damage has been done. Most Volcanic Strength targets go under it.Not that there are much better options. It keeps popping in and out of my 75. It always seems like a card I would want, but every time I have it I want to cut it unless its pump mode is particularly good at the time. Mind you Im probably cutting an Electrickery for it. I think it needs to be in the 75 so people respect it.
------------
On a another note, hard to believe how much I like Borderland Ranger right now. This is a greedy mana format but being able to cast spells is great. Bonfire loves Borderland. These decks should have 25 lands by all estimations as far as I'm concerned but there is a reason for density we don't. 23 would be fine with 8 dorks but we can't support them. Even 24 is a bit of a stretch with 4. Decks with this curve traditionally want like 30 mana sources. Gyre Sage is ok way of getting over the deficit but is awkward in multiples without BTE. Borderland is that nice push on low mana hands. So many times I curve out at 3 lands at 23. Going to 24 is pretty similar but I'm much more apt to flood and miss off Domri it feels. Borderland is a nice mix. Not terribly aggressive but ensures you hit 5. Doing a 2/2 split with Sage feels good. That leaves me 14 1/2 drops, meaning I should have atleast one early every game. But it also gives me 31 mana sources. Only 6 of the creatures are truly weak bodies (Pilgrim, Borderland) as Sage and Boar are respectable. Leaving me with only 29 slots(6 + 23 lands) which don't contain powerful effects. Voice is a bit weak before it comes back mind you, Domri doesn't always hit (though 31 creatures help) so there is some power loss, but the trade off is that Bonfire should be crippling. This should allow you to still buy time and get them in range for the kill.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Clifftop Retreat
1 Forest
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
4 Avacyn’s Pilgrim
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Restoration Angel
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Domri Rade
4 Mizzium Mortars
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Ground Seal
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Searing Spear
3 Selesnya Charm
Renounce seems stellar against Jund. Trading a voice for huntmaster, planeswalker, sire, or olivia seems good.
I agree that charm isn't the best thing but it gives the deck options vs Angel of Serenity, if that thing comes down early via rites it's just a giant road block that we have no answer to. The charm lets us deal with it in a number of ways, if we aren't tapped out when they drop it it's very possible to just win the game if they are greedy and put a bunch of their own stuff under it from their graveyard by exiling AoS with her ETB trigger on the stack. Just exiling her straight up is pretty good too, it takes her out of the game so she cannot be unburial rites right back into play the next turn.
Also the charm gives us some play vs thragtusk, it's not the most efficient thing but exiling the front half the thragtusk and then using domri to fight smiter on the beast still allows is to get in for 4 and make them answer us next turn. Also if they try to blink a thragtusk we can exile him in response, getting him out of the game is pretty important I find. I almost never use the other abilities so maybe the card should be in the sideboard but game 1 vs rites it's been so huge for me I can't push myself to cut it.
On a side note I think purify the grave is our best answer to rites decks, ground seal/DRS/Rest in peace are all very slow answers that lose to slime and really slow us down. I really like how the card can be re-used, is instant speed (can basically cost them the game if you exile a thrag/AoS in response when they're relying on it to hold the line for them) and only costs 1 white mana. The deck operates with a lot of 3 drops and coincidentally t3/t4 is about the time they'll be bringing back a fattie to hold us off so leaving up a single W mana source isn't much of a tell.
The problem with Angel isn't just it being there though.. It's the Tempo loss. Honestly you Selesnya Charm you still might be screwed. Especially if they manage a board. Unless you got Thundermaw under it and already knocked them down it still isn't enough. My plan has been Blasphemous Act or Boros Charm (for double Strike with Ghor Clan/Sublime) and just try to one shot them. They don't play enough instant removal. I attack their mana development to slow them down while I try to get them in range.
Which brings me to that list. It doesn't beat Reanimator.. If you are fine with that's ok. It is about the best incarnation against aggro, and it's control matchup will be ok, assuming Domri is enough (although he is not as good as pre aetherling). Junk I'd want Bonfire somewhere. Generally I agree Pillar is better than Spear but I don't like either. It's not like we care about Voice with our creature suite. We rule these on board conflicts. It's really mirror tech and might be just not enough anyway. Junk Aristocrats is a consideration but I put Bonfire higher there.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
2 Pillar of Flame -> cut for 2 bonfires or 2 electrickeries?
2 Boros Charm -> supreme verdict decks/decks we want to win vs quickly.
2 Ray of Revelation -> bant-enchant/1 copy vs UWR to kill assemble the legion
2 Skullcrack -> maze's end fog deck/sphinx's decks
1 Oblivion Ring -> boros reckoner/catch all card
1 Assemble the Legion -> control/midrange stuggles against this, however it's slow
1 Aurelia the warleader -> allows us to crush midrange strategies not sure yet however
2 Blasphemous Act -> good card all around vs lots of strategies
1 Purify the grave -> Junk rites decks
Maybe something like this:
2 Bonfire
1 electrickery
2 Purify the grave
2 Blasphemous Act
2 Boros Charm
2 Ray of Revelation
1 O-Ring
1 Aurelia the warleader
2 Skullcrack
The sideboarding is tricky because this deck cannot afford to waste a lot of time, if we bring in a card it has to be cheap and extremely efficient.
I agree. However, I think both decks are hard matchups for Naya in classic sense. Reanimator is just the current version of the ramp deck in the format and these type of decks have always had issues with those. I actually think Reanimator is the worst matchup for this deck. That's largely why it disappeared before and only started to come back. Having a Naya list beat aggro is trivial by comparison. Mind you GW does have the tools to beat Reanimator(it was the best deck against it in the fall), but those cards are not great against aggro. It's really a matter of balance.
Aristocrats and Reanimator do share some cards and cards that work well against them. I think it's important to find slots that cater to both together. In that sense Rest in Peace looks decent. The problem I'm finding is it is almost irrelevant against Reanimator. That the tempo loss, the actual cost of including the card is worse than the effect. That exchange just buys them time. It's great against the Aristocrats mind you. That deck needs to critical mass so it can slow them down even with an answer, and we can do more with our mana. What cards are great in both matchups? Bonfire of the Damned, Thundermaw Hellkite, Ghor Clan Rampager. I would add Blasphemous Act against Act 3 (just watch out for Blood Artist), not so much for Act 2, but it's an additional way to combo off against Reanimator, and is a much better Tempo reset than a single Selesnya Charm often. Electrickery is pretty decent against both as is Boros Reckoner. Any card that allows you to race really is pretty much. Like Sublime Archangel might seem weak against Lingering Souls but if you find a way to punch through the board stalls usually lead to huge damage against the Aristocrats. The low removal in Reanimator makes it like having more Thundermaws(or rather our own Falkenrath).
Pillar is still probably my favourite answer to Blood Artist because it's cheap. Realistically once a sac outlet is only is pretty hard short of multiple sweepers to get anywhere.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Avacyn Pilgrim
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Restoration Angel
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
Sorceries
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Bonfire of the Damned
3 Selesnya Charm
Planeswalkers
4 Domri Rade
Land
1 Gavony Township
1 Forest
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple Garden
2 Unflinching Courage
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Rest in Peace
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Boros Charm
1 Thragtusk
1 Electrickery
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Zealous Conscripts
I played 2 FNM's (one at 1pm - 4pm and one at 7pm - 11pm) this past Friday. Both ran a slightly different version of this deck. (This is what I ended up with on Saturday after some trades / tweaking).
Earlier FNM:
The deck-list for this event was:
-1 voice of resurgence
+2 Experiment One
+2 Flinthoof Boar
-2 Huntmaster of the Fells
-1 Bonfire of the Damned
I went 2-2. Here's how the games went:
Match 1: Esper Control
Game 1: Get some punches in until we both have few cards in hand. T2 Thalia after his T1 Hallowed Fountain. Thalia does a TON of work this game. Usual control shenanigans, Azorius Charms and Supreme Verdict. Eventually he taps out for Obzedat which I promptly Selesnya charm and my follow up Hellkite cleans up.
Game 2: Aetherling. No way to deal. I lose.
Game 3: Again Thalia makes an appearance and does significant stuff, but it's my boarded-in Assemble the Legion that finishes the game.
Match 2: BWG Tokens
Game 1: The guy I'm playing is a notoriously good player in my city, having top 8 a number of Grand Prix events in Canada. Basically I run out of steam while his Intangible Virtue Advent of the Wurm with Vault of the Archangel / Gavony really do work. I recall making a few critical misplays but I forget what they were now. I'm going to start taking notes when I FNM.
Game 2: Basically the same story as last game, except he boarded O-Ring's and Unflinching Courage. This guy really messed me up. I'm sure that I made a bunch of errors in my play.
Match 3: Esper Control
Game 1: He gets nice draws and can delay until Aetherling. My board presence is puny so racing isn't an option. I can't find an answer and promptly lose!
Game 2: Again, nice draws. He boards in more removal and again, Aetherling is there to ruin my day. Blegh.
Match 4: Simic Control
Game 1: This guy's deck is pretty janky... he basically Plasm Capture's into big guys like Vorapede but it didn't really work out because I just fought his big guys with Reckoner.
Game 2: Another blow-out in my favour. With no pillar of flame, Voice of Resurgence carries me to victory easily.
Later FNM
Decklist for this event:
-2 Huntermaster of the Fells
+2 Experiment One
I ended up going 3-2, with my losses coming from:
Selesnya Aggro - Game 1: I mull to 5, end up with no green mana, lose horribly to a t2 loxodon smiter t3 silverblade pairing t4 sublime archangel t5 unflinching courage.
Game 2: Played a hand with 2 Domri's (afraid again of mulling to unplayable hand) and get blown out by his nut-hand and t5 top deck of sigarda.
my other loss was against Maze's End Turbo Fog. I lost 0-2 vs ****ing turbo fog. My only out in game 1 was using Domri and fighting a reckoner vs ANYTHING, but I couldn't find one, and g2 he ended up drawing 80 fogs and riot controlling to 80+ life. I think this match-up is doable without skullcrack, but having one would have made life soooo much easier.
I went 2-0 in all my other games, including vs monogreen aggro (ez), B/W Tokens (ez) and superfriends (which was pretty ez but I think I had Thalia each game and he Lilianna of the Veil'd me a smiter twice).
Notes
- The 1-of Thalia is surprisingly relevant. Every game she came out she definitely edged the game in my direction. The only time this hurt me was when I got stuck on 3 mana and was unable to play Domri.
- I never got a chance to play my 1 Bonfire. The only game it would've helped would have been against the mono-green, which was a blow-out in my favour anyway.
- The deck I actually played didn't have the huntmasters - instead I played 2 Flinthoof Boar. I found this card basically useless in this deck. T1 I would shock myself for Pilgrim then T2 Reckoner or Smiter or Voice. T3 I would play either Domri or Smiter / Reckoner. Never did I find Boar making any impact. As well, in my post-FNM testing, Huntmaster saved my ass a number of times (tested vs gruul agro and control). He also works much better with Resto Angel and I find him to be a natural precursor to Hellkite.
- Selesnya Charm is unbelievably good. It deals with a wide range of big threats, from Obzedat to opposing Hellkites, or when your opponent uses ghor-clan or a pump spell. It also lets you push in for a lot more damage. I'm not sure if rancor or ghor-clan is better here, but I found the removal from the charm very handy.
- Domri Rade is also unbelievably good. It got me soooooo far in the matches vs Control. I would have had 0% chance without him (pre-board) but with him I give it a 50/50 chance that you can pull it out. The ability to regain some tempo after board wipes is incredibly useful. Now I just need an answer to Aetherling!
All in all I really enjoy playing this deck. I believe my losses (apart from the one vs Selesnya aggro where I basically died because of bad hands) all came from my own misplays. I think this deck has a fair chance against anything in a bo3.
Hope this post helps some aspiring Naya players!
-itchyLegs
Not 100% on the Sb cards and testing advent > ghor clan.
Also not sure how much i like mortars. Why not searing spear or bonfire?
4 Temple Garden
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Stomping Ground
1 Clifftop Retreat
4 Rootbound Crag
2 Forest
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Restoration Angel
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Loxodon Smiter
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Domri Rade
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Advent of the Wurm
Also my lands could be slightly wrong.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
In my testing I try to just take the most aggressive line I can and try to plow threw them quickly, every point of damage matters. I try to blow thragtusk up as soon as he hits the board as blinking him once is brutal. Cards like bonfire/electrickery/Purify the grave/blasphemous act seem pretty good, even boros charm is 4 damage to the face which can help. I take out a lot of the slower cards like domri/mizzium mortars depending on which version they run.
I think the reanimator MU depends on which early game card package they run, I used to play the deck myself and they could have lingering souls/centaur healer/fiend hunter/smiter/etc - these are the cards that will really tell you how to get in early game. Later on I think you have to rely on thundermaw to push threw the last points. I can't stress how much I think purify the grave is the better option over the 2 mana enchantments, we cannot afford to take a turn off because the late game we won't beat thragtusks/restos/vault/gavony/AoS package. Save selesnya charm to stop a thrag blink/AoS/Ghost council.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26330_Rade-Against-The-Machine.html
Here's the deck he uses throughout.
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Restoration Angel
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Forest
4 Clifftop Retreat
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
3 Rest in Peace
3 Unflinching Courage
3 Boros Charm
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Mizzium Mortars
I like BBD's list I just felt he's still relying on Rest in Peace too much out of the board. I think the deck needs to be even more aggressive, hence my move down to Flinthoof Boars from Smiters and Sublimes from Restoration Angels. Playing Resto is like playing a 6 drop in that matchup. If you watch him play he sides Smiter out a lot.. (correctly) I watch so many times where Smiter just means that much less damage over a game. From a damage point of view it takes Smiter 3 attacks to catch up to Boar. Not that BBD's mana is great for Boar. I find Blasphemous Act shennanigans actually better than trying to play any Rest in Peace type of game.
I found watching that BBD got a decent number of tapland draws. 10 Buddies is high and 10 T1 G is low for his 6. If you run good it's atleast a respectable manabase though. I just think he could be using his sideboard a bit better.
I challenge anyone to try the more aggressive take and see how it completely changes the match dynamics and what you need in a sideboard. Even against decks like the Aristocrats. Keeping constant pressure on is huge difference to how the deck plays. I think BBD is in the right direction I just think it needs to go even further that way.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage