Its really important for this deck to be slamming turn 2 3drops. Im not sure if the math turns out that we only need 5 mana guys, but 6 feels a lot better to me.
You'd play 7-8 if you could I think. The math is the number of T1 Green sources and how greedy do you want to be in terms of consistency. Personally at 10 I stop at 4. Some people stop at 5 or maybe 6. I think 4 is the "right" number but it's hard not to try to push it. I mean it isn't even really the right number when you rely on the timing of the 1 drop so much. Really we want to be playing 12 T1 sources like any deck with 1 drops but we will make do.
The 6th place list from Miami would not like Boar much since it doesn't run enough mountains. Just another restriction. Another way to affect consistency.
I'm going to tell you guys here this is why I quit playing the deck. I was looking for something that really leveraged getting out the gates and this deck didn't have enough consistency on it's ramp. And when it missed the 4 drops were a lot less impressive. It's the reason I complained about Advent and even Sublime. Big on the ground wasn't doing enough (so Sublimes pseudo haste) and Advent weren't doing enough. Reckoner is the biggest ground creature period. And we have less efficient ways to deal than black decks. They can hand pick 1 or 2 removal spells and it's deal.
It's not that the deck isn't powerful, but rather less consistent than the mean in the format. It's pushing the mana too far. It is due to Reckoner. There isn't actually a meaningful way to play the extra forests. They just replace Gavony etc.. And all that means is you have one less tool when you do jump up the mana to basically Thundermaw (and maybe Bonfire). This formula would be fine if it was enough to just win games. But it requires a lot of factors lining up.
It's not that the deck is bad by any means and I'm sure in skilled pilots hands it can go pretty far (we've seen it). It's just very middle of the road. And I don't mean like Jund. I mean like it isn't particularly good at anything but gumming the board. But that isn't always a plan unto itself. I've said it before not wishing to be in the Reanimator matchup. And the same still holds true. But it isn't just there. In some ways it is like Cedrics Jund deck where I'm literally just sitting hoping for Bonfire or Dragon. This deck has better ground (Reckoner is the king of the ground) but you are trading Gyre Sage/Burning-Tree awkwardness for mana dork slow 4 drops awkwardness. Cedrics list has more bang your dead cards(that are good on their own, and not just good with Reckoner). This deck has more lower drops that come down to chill that hide the fact the deck is muddling.
On the plus with the right draws you can do everything you'd want. Just hopefully you don't draw all Voice's and Huntmasters against Reanimator etc..
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I know not many people have been likeing advent of the wurm, and there is valid reasons but I think its pretty good right now.
If blood baron sees more playing the Wurm blocks and kills it, its out of mortars range, out of warleaders helix range, and is instant speed which makes for really good wrath recovery and surprise blocks.
Downsides is Abrupt decay hits is(also kills flipped huntmaster) and its not a creature for domri. But in my experences(i've played advent for about a month now) the body and mana cost is extremely good, and especially folowed with a thundermaw.
Its a pretty powerful play. its kinda like our falkenrath aristocrat. except falkenrath is weak to tragic slip and advent is weak to abrupt decay.
I know not many people have been likeing advent of the wurm, and there is valid reasons but I think its pretty good right now.
If blood baron sees more playing the Wurm blocks and kills it, its out of mortars range, out of warleaders helix range, and is instant speed which makes for really good wrath recovery and surprise blocks.
Downsides is Abrupt decay hits is(also kills flipped huntmaster) and its not a creature for domri. But in my experences(i've played advent for about a month now) the body and mana cost is extremely good, and especially folowed with a thundermaw.
Its a pretty powerful play. its kinda like our falkenrath aristocrat. except falkenrath is weak to tragic slip and advent is weak to abrupt decay.
Abrupt Decay is exactly why Advent of the Wurm is questionable. I did lose to a Naya Midrange deck that Boros charmed an attacking Wurm token at me and made me lose the game admittedly and the Wurm will certainly survive any fight Domri puts him into. Normally 2-4 spells are optimal if you choose to use Domri though and even my list has 6-8 spells, which is far too many. I might keep the 2 Wurms and give it another shot and drop the Mizzium Mortars.
Abrupt Decay is exactly why Advent of the Wurm is questionable. I did lose to a Naya Midrange deck that Boros charmed an attacking Wurm token at me and made me lose the game admittedly and the Wurm will certainly survive any fight Domri puts him into. Normally 2-4 spells are optimal if you choose to use Domri though and even my list has 6-8 spells, which is far too many. I might keep the 2 Wurms and give it another shot and drop the Mizzium Mortars.
Right now I have
4 domri
4 advent
4 bonfire
I generally dont mind having the extra spells and missing from time to time with domri, since i usually use her for removal. It does suck to +1 and see advent though. But I do enjoy seeing bonfire because then I get to plan accordingly.
I don't think there is a ton wrong with Advent. I'd play it before most 4 drops in Naya(Ghor Clan isn't really a 4 drop). But it's like Wizards has perfectly balanced it making Domri just that touch worse. The problem is the incentive for why we like Thundermaw so much. Advent has decent evasion but it's still just a ground beater. This is a format where you can't really block. Sure you have to block but it is rarely profitable. A 2/2 tramples over a wolf token as likely as a wurm token. Or Spears on trade as well as Ghor Clan which we already play. So really it's more of a matter of offensive output and positioning in board stalls. Boros Reckoner like Blade Splicer before him is the king of these states. So maybe Advent just becomes an expensive removal spell and it's worth it but that doesnt leverage the fact we play Reckoner. This would matter less if the deck could T5 games pretty regularly. Try to force a race and go with it but the output speed is probably 1 turn too slow if you don't hit Thundermaw. And if they don't go for it and they don't will you be left having wasted your resources too early to push damage. Boros Charm on Advent or with Silverblade are clearly ways to push that damage (albeit fragile or conditional) so definitely something that requires conscious opting for.
I think the problem is none of the options are great. So basically falling to Resto/Huntmaster just leverages cards you already are playing and the general strategy and in so the deck operates more consistently. Sure it ignores glaring issues that playing Advent or a card like Sublime attempt to solve, but you know what to expect as you play out.
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The struggle is just pushing that bit of damage through with the 4 drop, it seems weird to me to see a these lists running 2x huntmaster. In my experience that card is so good if your deck wants huntmaster it usually wants all 4 of them. From my testing of this deck it really feels like you want a flier at 4, another ground guy isn't going to get you anywhere that your other ground creatures couldn't do. For advent I can see how if they stumble or are behind that another 5 power ground beater could close the game but if that's the case your 3 drops should be winning you the game any ways. We also have ghor-clan rampager at 4 if we really want that type of effect, it does die to mortars/warleader's helix but lots of other cards beat advent so the trade off isn't really that much different - I'd prefer to keep the deck less-soft to abrupt decay/far//away.
I've been toying with Aurelia, maybe cut a single smiter and add her as a 1-of. 6 mana usually isn't that big of a deal but sometimes I do end up in games where my dorks get swept/picked off and even casting thundermaw in time becomes difficult so I'm not sure. Ruric thar seems pretty awesome too as he is so hard to kill without taking a ton of damage but aurelia represents so much damage out of no where I'm not sure what is best.
Even though restoration angel isn't the best card for this style of deck I find her putting in a lot of work, also the awkward position she puts aggro decks in when you swing with your smiter/reckoner and just hold up resto mana and make them decide if they want to slam that hell rider/alpha into you next turn is often times brutal for them. Advent provides a similar effect but it's not as easy to get aggressive with your 3 drop, plus the turn after he doesn't often get to attack into midrange decks since thragtusk is so good against him. I find restoration angel getting in quite a bit, she doesn't have the impact but she seems a little more reliable against midrange decks and she's a blowout vs aggro decks.
Sublime is questionable, she provides a nice damage boost the turn she comes down and if nothing else is a 4 power flier which is a real threat if you're also attacking with a thundermaw and a 2/3 drop as well. She also allows you to attack with just 1 guy and still get respectable damage through, if you have 4 guys on the board a dork can attack in for 5 damage while you hold the fort vs aggro which is a pretty nice thing if you're playing the control deck.I feel like the key to this deck is being able to change gears and quickly explode with a lot of damage over 1-2 turns, this is the only way I've been able to beat any of the midrange-y decks with any consistency. I don't feel like huntmaster really provides that option, vs a lot of decks I can see him being very dead and flipping him is kinda awkward with this deck as well so I dunno about him as the 4 drop. He's super efficient but this deck doesn't really want that, at the 4 drop spot we want to start applying a lot of pressure to hopefully close the game out with our thundermaws.
How have your results been with the deck so far? It's interesting that you side-boarded Domri and lightened him up so much seeing as he's a house against Control.
How have your results been with the deck so far? It's interesting that you side-boarded Domri and lightened him up so much seeing as he's a house against Control.
Its been testing very well. Game ones you can steal wins off Act, and game 2 i side it most of the time. Domri is very strong as is Garruk in the control match ups.
Its been testing very well. Game ones you can steal wins off Act, and game 2 i side it most of the time. Domri is very strong as is Garruk in the control match ups.
But do you feel like you either have to hit a Turn 1 dork or a Turn 2 Farseek to really have much of a chance against all the aggro in the meta?
I also feel like those 2 Searing Spear could be Selesnya Charm due to the popularity of Junk Reanimator. Having removal for Thundermaw Hellkite and Angel of Serenity as well as opposing Thragtusk isn't a bad idea. It also pushes through damage when we need to or when an opposing Restoration Angel blocks ours. I also think it wouldn't hurt to run 2 Ray of Revelation (against Bant Hexproof as often-times you'll have to race them) and maybe some number of Bonfire of the Damned as that card is a huge sweeper and you've got the mana to use it reliably, even hard-cast.
But do you feel like you either have to hit a Turn 1 dork or a Turn 2 Farseek to really have much of a chance against all the aggro in the meta?
I also feel like those 2 Searing Spear could be Selesnya Charm due to the popularity of Junk Reanimator. Having removal for Thundermaw Hellkite and Angel of Serenity as well as opposing Thragtusk isn't a bad idea. It also pushes through damage when we need to or when an opposing Restoration Angel blocks ours. I also think it wouldn't hurt to run 2 Ray of Revelation (against Bant Hexproof as often-times you'll have to race them) and maybe some number of Bonfire of the Damned as that card is a huge sweeper and you've got the mana to use it reliably, even hard-cast.
No not at all, that is where the 2 Searing Spear play a huge roll. Also Boros Reckoner, Huntmaster and Tusk help that obviously. The Spears turning into Charms I dont really like. Spears do kill Tusk as well, against Junk Reanimator I would rather be killing their mana dorks, and applying a lot of my own pressure than just waiting for them to cast their huge guy so I can kill it. I do like the idea of Ray but Act really helps that match up. I would also rather run Act over Bonfire because of the interaction with Reckoner like I said it can just win you games you had no reason winning to begin with. Bonfire also is not as good against Bant Hexproof because too often they get out of bonfire range which can be very frustrating.
This is a much slower variant that's been developed so far but I've seen similar lists doing well online. The impression I get is the deck needs HAS to ramp to even be in the game which I don't like much, one of the most attractive parts to this deck so far is that I rarely have to mull unless it's a bad matchup and I'm digging for certain spells. You will die to a fast aggro draw a huge percentage of the time, I'd say if you're going to play the hardcore ramp deck style I'd:
-2 blasphemous act
-2 thundermaw
-2 Searing Spear
-3 Advent
-1 resto
It's pretty rough still, but I'm happy with the basic ratios so far. 24 lands, 24 creatures, and 3 Garruk's seems like the sweet spot. I like RiP over Ooze in the board because it hoses Rites decks harder, and does things to Aristocrat decks that Ooze can only dream about. Mainboard is set up to combat aggro, since I think that is where the overall strategy of Caller of Beasts midrange seems weakest. Any thoughts?
Edit: I've gone back and forth on Huntmaster. He's obviously super powerful, especially with Resto Angel but Fiend Hunter and Healer are CMC 3, wich works much better with the mana dork strategy I went with here.
This is a much slower variant that's been developed so far but I've seen similar lists doing well online. The impression I get is the deck needs HAS to ramp to even be in the game which I don't like much, one of the most attractive parts to this deck so far is that I rarely have to mull unless it's a bad matchup and I'm digging for certain spells. You will die to a fast aggro draw a huge percentage of the time, I'd say if you're going to play the hardcore ramp deck style I'd:
-2 blasphemous act
-2 thundermaw
-2 Searing Spear
-3 Advent
-1 resto
I'd also add in caverns, if your deck does survive to cast those huge bombs you really want them to resolve.
Its actually not that slow, and does not have a horrible match up against Aggro decks. The additions youre suggesting actually makes it slower with no extra ramp or speed. You really want me to play an Angel of Serenity with 24 lands?
I actually have 13 plays in my first 2 turns I can do. From the Pilgrims, to Farseeks, Voices, and Searing Spears. All of which either buy my a little bit of time to get to my Boros Reckoners (which most of the time stone walls aggro) and other high end things like Huntmaster, and Tusk, which are very hard for aggro decks to deal with.
As far as why I play Blasphemous Act over Mizzium Mortars or Bonfire is because It just hands me games if I have a Reckoner out. Sometimes games I have no reason to win. It is also a lot better in the Hexproof match up because in most cases their guys with all the auras on it gets out of bonfire or mortars range.
The only real change I have thought about has been cutting Searing Spears for Domri, but seeing I only play 24 dudes I am still unsure how good it would be, and requires some testing. Also the SB could use a little more work as well.
Because we're naturally at least on par with aggro no matter which 4-drops we roll with and I hate the Rites MU so much (I feel like all I see RG Aggro and Junk Rites online), I'm still on the Farseek-less plan with a set of Advent of the Wurm and Ghor-Clan Rampager MB (no Huntmaster/Resto).
I just think it's super important to go for the throat vs. Junk Rites since they offer so much more inevitability than us. I mean, yeah Huntmaster is good for stabilizing after a BTE chain but it's not like we stop beating them in the creature quality department once we drop him. We can still stabilize, we just lose some points in the MU.
The SB is then mostly set up to deal with Control and overall grindy, attrition based MUs (Jund).
It's tough because Naya does seem to have an identity crisis. That flexibility, however, comes in handy if you can metagame properly.
I love this deck too much to let it go even though it's not the best thing you can be doing right now. Also, it makes me happy when I see that a lot of this deck will be surviving the rotation. It's worth sticking with.
It basically seems unbeatable for me. They have so much removal as well as mutilates, they grind you out with Geralf's Messengers and the moment they sacrifice a Thragtusk to a Disciple of Bolas, it's over. They aren't weak to Domri either since they have abrupt decay. Our creatures are good but we can't fight the card advantage war like they can. Incredibly hard matchup.
Pillar helps with the messenger, Selesnya charm is good as well. Domri isn't that dead, I've won games against this deck by fighting my domri against a giant desecration demon and redirecting the damage to my opponent to finish them off. It is a very hard matchup though, one of the ways I did have success is just allowing them to tap out to draw all those cards then just killing them with a big alpha strike or two right after. This is where cards like ghor-clan really come in handy.
Honestly, I don't see us needing any of this save Ooze in the SB pre rotation.
Post rotation I can see myself including Garruk 4.0 in the SB to replace PH as a CA engine vs. Control and the like. Even in a 20 creatures deck you'll likely reach card parity off of a single +1 activation.
Honestly, I don't see us needing any of this save Ooze in the SB pre rotation.
Post rotation I can see myself including Garruk 4.0 in the SB to replace PH as a CA engine vs. Control and the like. Even in a 20 creatures deck you'll likely reach card parity off of a single +1 activation.
I agree with the Garruk 4.0. He will be in the SB for sure, and I do like Archangle of Thune a lot. She will be a good replacement for Thragtusk.
Its actually not that slow, and does not have a horrible match up against Aggro decks. The additions youre suggesting actually makes it slower with no extra ramp or speed. You really want me to play an Angel of Serenity with 24 lands?
I actually have 13 plays in my first 2 turns I can do. From the Pilgrims, to Farseeks, Voices, and Searing Spears. All of which either buy my a little bit of time to get to my Boros Reckoners (which most of the time stone walls aggro) and other high end things like Huntmaster, and Tusk, which are very hard for aggro decks to deal with.
As far as why I play Blasphemous Act over Mizzium Mortars or Bonfire is because It just hands me games if I have a Reckoner out. Sometimes games I have no reason to win. It is also a lot better in the Hexproof match up because in most cases their guys with all the auras on it gets out of bonfire or mortars range.
The only real change I have thought about has been cutting Searing Spears for Domri, but seeing I only play 24 dudes I am still unsure how good it would be, and requires some testing. Also the SB could use a little more work as well.
I suggested AoS since the way you've built the deck you're going to be going into long games with many of the midrange decks of the format and if you plan on winning you'll need cards like AoS to just win the game if you land it. With that much ramp I don't see casting it as that much of a problem, your deck is so top end heavy many of the changes I suggested were geared at surviving so you can cast all those bombs in your deck. I don't see how adding better more reliable removal and cutting some of the "cute" cards like blasphemous act makes the deck worse vs aggro. Your deck is probably fine if it curves out perfect but there are many games where you'll end up with a hand full of 4-5 drops and you'll just be dead. Even a deck like Jund isn't so cocky with it's curve and it has the luxury of running a lot more removal that's a lot more relevant.
One of the reasons I moved away from Act was that many of the red decks will have reckoner too which is a huge problem and also makes act a dead card for you. I also wouldn't add domri because you don't have enough low drop creatures to really make him good, getting the most out of him includes making his -2 very good and having a good chance at hitting something with his +1 (your deck can do neither). Mortars seems much better than spear as it can be overloaded as a sweeper and can kill things with 4 toughness for the same mana. The burn seems irrelevant as your deck isn't going to be killing anyone early game and I'd much rather have the option to sweep their board late game than to hit them for 3 damage.
Tell me if this is crazy but what do you guys think about a list like this. If any of you played Kibler Naya Pod pre rotation or Juza's GW deck a few falls ago the feel should be similar. Basically you can present such an overwhelming board presence that removal isn't exactly needed. The key is to mix tokens with just good cards. In so you don't get blown out by Ratchet Bomb. The sacrifice is losing Boros Reckoner however the deck has so much lifegain intrinsically I'm not sure Reckoner is needed.
Sideboard still working on. But while this is a very different approach to what we've been seeing the key benefit is it doesn't need Thundermaw to close games. The life gain potential here is much bigger than Thragtusk/Restoration Angel. Trostani+Archangel is so much more because it grows your whole board. And once you get the engine going with Archangel a few turns your Mana dorks are 10/10's so even Angel of Serenity isn't a threat. A well timed Fiend Hunter/Selesnya Charm gets you to a point where a Junk Rites deck would have to do a lot of work to come back since your whole board is huge. Cards like Brave the Elements or Boros Charm seem reasonable out of the board or even Rootborn Defenses (although I don't really think of this as a Token deck). Garruk, Primal Hunter is especially good in this deck in that the Tokens make a big difference generating advantage and drawing 5 cards or so can actually help you find that one answer or Combo piece you need.
EDIT: Traded Mikaeus for Silverblade. Deck needed to close more. Needed that T4 swing for 14 line.
I'm almost sure you should run Black instead of Red here. The deck has significant problems with Olivia Voldaren (which could be solved with Putrefy of Sever the Bloodline).
Jund is a public enemy number one now, so I'd put more Selesnya Charms maindeck if staying in Naya colors and put some Plummets into the sideboard.
Also, how about Nearheath Pilgrim instead of Mikaeus, the Lunarch?
I'm almost sure you should run Black instead of Red here. The deck has significant problems with Olivia Voldaren (which could be solved with Putrefy of Sever the Bloodline).
Jund is a public enemy number one now, so I'd put more Selesnya Charms maindeck if staying in Naya colors and put some Plummets into the sideboard.
Also, how about Nearheath Pilgrim instead of Mikaeus, the Lunarch?
I actually switch Mikaeus for Silverblade Paladin. Needed a bit more oomph on speed. Nearheath is fine just more life gain isn't really needed and the deck has enough 2 drops. It needed a bit more of a push. The interaction to trigger Angel is nice and all but having the option to pair with like an Advent and just get in there is very useful. Maybe I should play more. I tried Sublime Archangel too, but it didn't play nice enough with the team.
Selesnya Charm handles Olivia fine. I was thinking of including some more in the board and possibly 2 Sigarda. The reason for Bonfire is largely to stop other green decks attempting to be faster than you and to clear tokens. Sever can do some of this job for sure but a deck like this can leverage the late game potential much better as Overrun. Black would be good for sure too. But I think the increased mana cost of it's answers would mess with the flow a bit. Right now everything short of Bonfire is or produces a Creature which makes sure your engines can run. I think Black adds a lot but losing Bonfire probably means losing more. I'm not sure if it's really worth playing much of a removal game. I mean you need to remove some stuff perhaps but the list is much shorter with the over the top potential. Basically Olivia and Angel of Serenity are the only creatures worth talking about (maybe Craterhoof, but a resolved Craterhoof has already done it's damage).
It is possible this week with so much Jund around the need to play more Selesnya Charms main. It just sucks a bit since it makes the deck a bit worse. If you can be aggressive enough and they don't have a T3 Olivia, Olivia won't matter much. But I can definitely see where she'd be very problematic and 2 main deck answers and 2 maindeck tempo plays wouldn't be enough.
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And when it comes to lands, do you guys prefer Kessig Wolf Run or Gavony Township? I see so many lists using Gavony Township but isn't Kessig Wolf Run good to push through damage with a chump-blocked Loxodon Smiter?
You'd play 7-8 if you could I think. The math is the number of T1 Green sources and how greedy do you want to be in terms of consistency. Personally at 10 I stop at 4. Some people stop at 5 or maybe 6. I think 4 is the "right" number but it's hard not to try to push it. I mean it isn't even really the right number when you rely on the timing of the 1 drop so much. Really we want to be playing 12 T1 sources like any deck with 1 drops but we will make do.
The 6th place list from Miami would not like Boar much since it doesn't run enough mountains. Just another restriction. Another way to affect consistency.
I'm going to tell you guys here this is why I quit playing the deck. I was looking for something that really leveraged getting out the gates and this deck didn't have enough consistency on it's ramp. And when it missed the 4 drops were a lot less impressive. It's the reason I complained about Advent and even Sublime. Big on the ground wasn't doing enough (so Sublimes pseudo haste) and Advent weren't doing enough. Reckoner is the biggest ground creature period. And we have less efficient ways to deal than black decks. They can hand pick 1 or 2 removal spells and it's deal.
It's not that the deck isn't powerful, but rather less consistent than the mean in the format. It's pushing the mana too far. It is due to Reckoner. There isn't actually a meaningful way to play the extra forests. They just replace Gavony etc.. And all that means is you have one less tool when you do jump up the mana to basically Thundermaw (and maybe Bonfire). This formula would be fine if it was enough to just win games. But it requires a lot of factors lining up.
It's not that the deck is bad by any means and I'm sure in skilled pilots hands it can go pretty far (we've seen it). It's just very middle of the road. And I don't mean like Jund. I mean like it isn't particularly good at anything but gumming the board. But that isn't always a plan unto itself. I've said it before not wishing to be in the Reanimator matchup. And the same still holds true. But it isn't just there. In some ways it is like Cedrics Jund deck where I'm literally just sitting hoping for Bonfire or Dragon. This deck has better ground (Reckoner is the king of the ground) but you are trading Gyre Sage/Burning-Tree awkwardness for mana dork slow 4 drops awkwardness. Cedrics list has more bang your dead cards(that are good on their own, and not just good with Reckoner). This deck has more lower drops that come down to chill that hide the fact the deck is muddling.
On the plus with the right draws you can do everything you'd want. Just hopefully you don't draw all Voice's and Huntmasters against Reanimator etc..
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If blood baron sees more playing the Wurm blocks and kills it, its out of mortars range, out of warleaders helix range, and is instant speed which makes for really good wrath recovery and surprise blocks.
Downsides is Abrupt decay hits is(also kills flipped huntmaster) and its not a creature for domri. But in my experences(i've played advent for about a month now) the body and mana cost is extremely good, and especially folowed with a thundermaw.
Its a pretty powerful play. its kinda like our falkenrath aristocrat. except falkenrath is weak to tragic slip and advent is weak to abrupt decay.
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Abrupt Decay is exactly why Advent of the Wurm is questionable. I did lose to a Naya Midrange deck that Boros charmed an attacking Wurm token at me and made me lose the game admittedly and the Wurm will certainly survive any fight Domri puts him into. Normally 2-4 spells are optimal if you choose to use Domri though and even my list has 6-8 spells, which is far too many. I might keep the 2 Wurms and give it another shot and drop the Mizzium Mortars.
Right now I have
4 domri
4 advent
4 bonfire
I generally dont mind having the extra spells and missing from time to time with domri, since i usually use her for removal. It does suck to +1 and see advent though. But I do enjoy seeing bonfire because then I get to plan accordingly.
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I think the problem is none of the options are great. So basically falling to Resto/Huntmaster just leverages cards you already are playing and the general strategy and in so the deck operates more consistently. Sure it ignores glaring issues that playing Advent or a card like Sublime attempt to solve, but you know what to expect as you play out.
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I've been toying with Aurelia, maybe cut a single smiter and add her as a 1-of. 6 mana usually isn't that big of a deal but sometimes I do end up in games where my dorks get swept/picked off and even casting thundermaw in time becomes difficult so I'm not sure. Ruric thar seems pretty awesome too as he is so hard to kill without taking a ton of damage but aurelia represents so much damage out of no where I'm not sure what is best.
Even though restoration angel isn't the best card for this style of deck I find her putting in a lot of work, also the awkward position she puts aggro decks in when you swing with your smiter/reckoner and just hold up resto mana and make them decide if they want to slam that hell rider/alpha into you next turn is often times brutal for them. Advent provides a similar effect but it's not as easy to get aggressive with your 3 drop, plus the turn after he doesn't often get to attack into midrange decks since thragtusk is so good against him. I find restoration angel getting in quite a bit, she doesn't have the impact but she seems a little more reliable against midrange decks and she's a blowout vs aggro decks.
Sublime is questionable, she provides a nice damage boost the turn she comes down and if nothing else is a 4 power flier which is a real threat if you're also attacking with a thundermaw and a 2/3 drop as well. She also allows you to attack with just 1 guy and still get respectable damage through, if you have 4 guys on the board a dork can attack in for 5 damage while you hold the fort vs aggro which is a pretty nice thing if you're playing the control deck.I feel like the key to this deck is being able to change gears and quickly explode with a lot of damage over 1-2 turns, this is the only way I've been able to beat any of the midrange-y decks with any consistency. I don't feel like huntmaster really provides that option, vs a lot of decks I can see him being very dead and flipping him is kinda awkward with this deck as well so I dunno about him as the 4 drop. He's super efficient but this deck doesn't really want that, at the 4 drop spot we want to start applying a lot of pressure to hopefully close the game out with our thundermaws.
This is a list that I have been running.
Let me know what you guys think.
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Restoration Angel
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Thragtusk
3 Voice of Resurgence
Spells:
3 Advent of the Wurm
2 Searing Spear
2 Blasphemous Act
4 Farseek
2 Clifftop Retreat
2 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
1 Centaur Healer
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Voice of Resurgence
3 Rest in Peace
1 Selsnya Charm
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Assemble the Legions
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Domri Rade
How have your results been with the deck so far? It's interesting that you side-boarded Domri and lightened him up so much seeing as he's a house against Control.
Its been testing very well. Game ones you can steal wins off Act, and game 2 i side it most of the time. Domri is very strong as is Garruk in the control match ups.
But do you feel like you either have to hit a Turn 1 dork or a Turn 2 Farseek to really have much of a chance against all the aggro in the meta?
I also feel like those 2 Searing Spear could be Selesnya Charm due to the popularity of Junk Reanimator. Having removal for Thundermaw Hellkite and Angel of Serenity as well as opposing Thragtusk isn't a bad idea. It also pushes through damage when we need to or when an opposing Restoration Angel blocks ours. I also think it wouldn't hurt to run 2 Ray of Revelation (against Bant Hexproof as often-times you'll have to race them) and maybe some number of Bonfire of the Damned as that card is a huge sweeper and you've got the mana to use it reliably, even hard-cast.
No not at all, that is where the 2 Searing Spear play a huge roll. Also Boros Reckoner, Huntmaster and Tusk help that obviously. The Spears turning into Charms I dont really like. Spears do kill Tusk as well, against Junk Reanimator I would rather be killing their mana dorks, and applying a lot of my own pressure than just waiting for them to cast their huge guy so I can kill it. I do like the idea of Ray but Act really helps that match up. I would also rather run Act over Bonfire because of the interaction with Reckoner like I said it can just win you games you had no reason winning to begin with. Bonfire also is not as good against Bant Hexproof because too often they get out of bonfire range which can be very frustrating.
This is a much slower variant that's been developed so far but I've seen similar lists doing well online. The impression I get is the deck needs HAS to ramp to even be in the game which I don't like much, one of the most attractive parts to this deck so far is that I rarely have to mull unless it's a bad matchup and I'm digging for certain spells. You will die to a fast aggro draw a huge percentage of the time, I'd say if you're going to play the hardcore ramp deck style I'd:
-2 blasphemous act
-2 thundermaw
-2 Searing Spear
-3 Advent
-1 resto
+1 Huntmaster
+1 thrag
+2 mizzium mortars
+2 bonfire
+1 Angel of Serenity
+2 Warleader's Helix
+1 Voice
+2 Selesnya Charm
I'd also add in caverns, if your deck does survive to cast those huge bombs you really want them to resolve.
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Centaur Healer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Restoration Angel
2 Acidic Slime
4 Thragtusk
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
Planeswalkers: (3)
3 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
Instants and Sorceries: (9)
4 Bonfire of the Damned
3 Pillar of Flame
2 Warleader's Helix
3 Forest
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Sunpetal Grove
1 Clifftop Retreat
2 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Boros Charm
3 Rest in Peace
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Warleader's Helix
3 Rest in Piece
2 Acidic Slime
1 Zealous Conscripts
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
It's pretty rough still, but I'm happy with the basic ratios so far. 24 lands, 24 creatures, and 3 Garruk's seems like the sweet spot. I like RiP over Ooze in the board because it hoses Rites decks harder, and does things to Aristocrat decks that Ooze can only dream about. Mainboard is set up to combat aggro, since I think that is where the overall strategy of Caller of Beasts midrange seems weakest. Any thoughts?
Edit: I've gone back and forth on Huntmaster. He's obviously super powerful, especially with Resto Angel but Fiend Hunter and Healer are CMC 3, wich works much better with the mana dork strategy I went with here.
Its actually not that slow, and does not have a horrible match up against Aggro decks. The additions youre suggesting actually makes it slower with no extra ramp or speed. You really want me to play an Angel of Serenity with 24 lands?
I actually have 13 plays in my first 2 turns I can do. From the Pilgrims, to Farseeks, Voices, and Searing Spears. All of which either buy my a little bit of time to get to my Boros Reckoners (which most of the time stone walls aggro) and other high end things like Huntmaster, and Tusk, which are very hard for aggro decks to deal with.
As far as why I play Blasphemous Act over Mizzium Mortars or Bonfire is because It just hands me games if I have a Reckoner out. Sometimes games I have no reason to win. It is also a lot better in the Hexproof match up because in most cases their guys with all the auras on it gets out of bonfire or mortars range.
The only real change I have thought about has been cutting Searing Spears for Domri, but seeing I only play 24 dudes I am still unsure how good it would be, and requires some testing. Also the SB could use a little more work as well.
I just think it's super important to go for the throat vs. Junk Rites since they offer so much more inevitability than us. I mean, yeah Huntmaster is good for stabilizing after a BTE chain but it's not like we stop beating them in the creature quality department once we drop him. We can still stabilize, we just lose some points in the MU.
The SB is then mostly set up to deal with Control and overall grindy, attrition based MUs (Jund).
It's tough because Naya does seem to have an identity crisis. That flexibility, however, comes in handy if you can metagame properly.
I love this deck too much to let it go even though it's not the best thing you can be doing right now. Also, it makes me happy when I see that a lot of this deck will be surviving the rotation. It's worth sticking with.
Pillar helps with the messenger, Selesnya charm is good as well. Domri isn't that dead, I've won games against this deck by fighting my domri against a giant desecration demon and redirecting the damage to my opponent to finish them off. It is a very hard matchup though, one of the ways I did have success is just allowing them to tap out to draw all those cards then just killing them with a big alpha strike or two right after. This is where cards like ghor-clan really come in handy.
Honestly, I don't see us needing any of this save Ooze in the SB pre rotation.
Post rotation I can see myself including Garruk 4.0 in the SB to replace PH as a CA engine vs. Control and the like. Even in a 20 creatures deck you'll likely reach card parity off of a single +1 activation.
I agree with the Garruk 4.0. He will be in the SB for sure, and I do like Archangle of Thune a lot. She will be a good replacement for Thragtusk.
I suggested AoS since the way you've built the deck you're going to be going into long games with many of the midrange decks of the format and if you plan on winning you'll need cards like AoS to just win the game if you land it. With that much ramp I don't see casting it as that much of a problem, your deck is so top end heavy many of the changes I suggested were geared at surviving so you can cast all those bombs in your deck. I don't see how adding better more reliable removal and cutting some of the "cute" cards like blasphemous act makes the deck worse vs aggro. Your deck is probably fine if it curves out perfect but there are many games where you'll end up with a hand full of 4-5 drops and you'll just be dead. Even a deck like Jund isn't so cocky with it's curve and it has the luxury of running a lot more removal that's a lot more relevant.
One of the reasons I moved away from Act was that many of the red decks will have reckoner too which is a huge problem and also makes act a dead card for you. I also wouldn't add domri because you don't have enough low drop creatures to really make him good, getting the most out of him includes making his -2 very good and having a good chance at hitting something with his +1 (your deck can do neither). Mortars seems much better than spear as it can be overloaded as a sweeper and can kill things with 4 toughness for the same mana. The burn seems irrelevant as your deck isn't going to be killing anyone early game and I'd much rather have the option to sweep their board late game than to hit them for 3 damage.
Here's the Sketch:
4 Temple Garden
4 Stomping Ground
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Sunpetal Grove
2 Clifftop Retreat
5 Forest
2 Gavony Township
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Arbor Elf
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Silverblade Paladin
2 Fiend Hunter
3 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
4 Archangel of Thune
2 Selesnya Charm
4 Advent of the Wurm
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Bonfire of the Damned
Sideboard still working on. But while this is a very different approach to what we've been seeing the key benefit is it doesn't need Thundermaw to close games. The life gain potential here is much bigger than Thragtusk/Restoration Angel. Trostani+Archangel is so much more because it grows your whole board. And once you get the engine going with Archangel a few turns your Mana dorks are 10/10's so even Angel of Serenity isn't a threat. A well timed Fiend Hunter/Selesnya Charm gets you to a point where a Junk Rites deck would have to do a lot of work to come back since your whole board is huge. Cards like Brave the Elements or Boros Charm seem reasonable out of the board or even Rootborn Defenses (although I don't really think of this as a Token deck). Garruk, Primal Hunter is especially good in this deck in that the Tokens make a big difference generating advantage and drawing 5 cards or so can actually help you find that one answer or Combo piece you need.
EDIT: Traded Mikaeus for Silverblade. Deck needed to close more. Needed that T4 swing for 14 line.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Jund is a public enemy number one now, so I'd put more Selesnya Charms maindeck if staying in Naya colors and put some Plummets into the sideboard.
Also, how about Nearheath Pilgrim instead of Mikaeus, the Lunarch?
I actually switch Mikaeus for Silverblade Paladin. Needed a bit more oomph on speed. Nearheath is fine just more life gain isn't really needed and the deck has enough 2 drops. It needed a bit more of a push. The interaction to trigger Angel is nice and all but having the option to pair with like an Advent and just get in there is very useful. Maybe I should play more. I tried Sublime Archangel too, but it didn't play nice enough with the team.
Selesnya Charm handles Olivia fine. I was thinking of including some more in the board and possibly 2 Sigarda. The reason for Bonfire is largely to stop other green decks attempting to be faster than you and to clear tokens. Sever can do some of this job for sure but a deck like this can leverage the late game potential much better as Overrun. Black would be good for sure too. But I think the increased mana cost of it's answers would mess with the flow a bit. Right now everything short of Bonfire is or produces a Creature which makes sure your engines can run. I think Black adds a lot but losing Bonfire probably means losing more. I'm not sure if it's really worth playing much of a removal game. I mean you need to remove some stuff perhaps but the list is much shorter with the over the top potential. Basically Olivia and Angel of Serenity are the only creatures worth talking about (maybe Craterhoof, but a resolved Craterhoof has already done it's damage).
It is possible this week with so much Jund around the need to play more Selesnya Charms main. It just sucks a bit since it makes the deck a bit worse. If you can be aggressive enough and they don't have a T3 Olivia, Olivia won't matter much. But I can definitely see where she'd be very problematic and 2 main deck answers and 2 maindeck tempo plays wouldn't be enough.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage