There's also:
Tamiyo
Blood Baron
Runechanter's pike
entreat the angels
I should note that I don't like Angel of Serenity as a win condition because it relies on them having zero removal (and they always seem to have a dreadbore in hand for her).
Good call. I didnt have Tamiyo or Sorin in the original list because they don't outright win you the game. But they sure put you 90% of the way there if you can get them working right.
I keep forgetting about Blood Baron. Maybe theres an interesting build with him in it somewhere.
Runechanter and Entreat - yup. Forgot about them. I do remember a lot of people LOVING runechanter in early variants of Esper. Maybe it will make a comeback?
Good call. I didnt have Tamiyo or Sorin in the original list because they don't outright win you the game. But they sure put you 90% of the way there if you can get them working right.
I keep forgetting about Blood Baron. Maybe theres an interesting build with him in it somewhere.
Runechanter and Entreat - yup. Forgot about them. I do remember a lot of people LOVING runechanter in early variants of Esper. Maybe it will make a comeback?
Pike was great because it accelerated the tempo clock for delver and made it possible for snapcaster to attack for more than one turn due to first strike.
For current control, a pike is a conditional 4cmc (to play and equip) that only boosts the damage. I do see EOT resto then play and equip pike and swing, but putrify is a definite problem.
I don't hear much about him, but Gideon could also be played. I know people are put off by his +1 and his ultimate, but they both have their places. Vs blitz, you wipe the field and then they play the couple of creatures they've been sandbagging, you play him and give him +3. The next turn, you're swinging a 7/7. If they attack him, they probably can't kill him and you plus him again for 3-5. Against something like rites, he's a definite win condition. If he hits the field, they have just a few turns to deal with him. Once again, if they swing at him, they buy you time, if they don't he ultimates and just wins.
The weak matchup is jund because they have dreadbore. [RANT] Why did they print a 2 cost answer for planeswalkers? Even Esper can only d-sphere them for 3cmc with the POSSIBILITY that they won't come back. Everyone talks about how weak their planeswalkers are and this is the biggest reason next to resto angel that they are. A 1cmc red card that does 2 to creature/player or 3 to planeswalker would be a much less broken card.[/RANT]
I tested a midrange esper for a while. Lavinia, Baron, Alms Beast, nighthawk, resto angel, aetherling (a turn 6 that avoids removal later), and snapcasters. Because of the combination of removal and draw, it seemed to do very well against blitz and had a fairly good matchup against jund.
The real star was alms beast though, It's close to a devour flesh on a stick. For some reason people seem to think that it being a 6/6 means that the opponent gains 6 whenever it swings, but in my experience, they always chump. The thing about life is that getting more doesn't guarantee that you win, it only slows down the opponent. Put a pike on it turn 5 and it negates the only downside it has vs most creatures. If you splash green, you suddenly add thragtusk, voice, and rancor to the mix. A turn five 8/6 trample alms beast is probably going to hit them for way more than they're going to gain by chump blocking.
Anyway, I quit the midrange testing because I didn't care for the turn sideways gameplay. Esper doesn't lack for quality finishers. My current deck list runs several (tamiyo, baron, aetherling, drownyards, both jaces, etc) and my problem is seldom that I don't have a finisher to cast; instead it is that I have a hard time lasting until they hit the field (even with them being 4-5cmc) when playing a blitz deck.
I'm a fan of bloodbaron. I run two mainboard in my deck and I have to say he rarely disappoints. The lifelink and protection is huge, even if his win more ability rarely every activates.
I currently run a singleton Obzedat and Aetherling main board. And then another of each in the side. It works very well currently.
Obzedat is absolutely insane against aggro as a stabiliser, and Aetherling works wonders against basically everything as we already know. That said, some games Drownyard is just great and being a basically unstoppable wincon is good when you're worried about Aetherling or Obzedat 'getting there'.
Pike was great because it accelerated the tempo clock for delver and made it possible for snapcaster to attack for more than one turn due to first strike.
For current control, a pike is a conditional 4cmc (to play and equip) that only boosts the damage. I do see EOT resto then play and equip pike and swing, but putrify is a definite problem.
I don't hear much about him, but Gideon could also be played. I know people are put off by his +1 and his ultimate, but they both have their places. Vs blitz, you wipe the field and then they play the couple of creatures they've been sandbagging, you play him and give him +3. The next turn, you're swinging a 7/7. If they attack him, they probably can't kill him and you plus him again for 3-5. Against something like rites, he's a definite win condition. If he hits the field, they have just a few turns to deal with him. Once again, if they swing at him, they buy you time, if they don't he ultimates and just wins.
The weak matchup is jund because they have dreadbore. [RANT] Why did they print a 2 cost answer for planeswalkers? Even Esper can only d-sphere them for 3cmc with the POSSIBILITY that they won't come back. Everyone talks about how weak their planeswalkers are and this is the biggest reason next to resto angel that they are. A 1cmc red card that does 2 to creature/player or 3 to planeswalker would be a much less broken card.[/RANT]
I tested a midrange esper for a while. Lavinia, Baron, Alms Beast, nighthawk, resto angel, aetherling (a turn 6 that avoids removal later), and snapcasters. Because of the combination of removal and draw, it seemed to do very well against blitz and had a fairly good matchup against jund.
The real star was alms beast though, It's close to a devour flesh on a stick. For some reason people seem to think that it being a 6/6 means that the opponent gains 6 whenever it swings, but in my experience, they always chump. The thing about life is that getting more doesn't guarantee that you win, it only slows down the opponent. Put a pike on it turn 5 and it negates the only downside it has vs most creatures. If you splash green, you suddenly add thragtusk, voice, and rancor to the mix. A turn five 8/6 trample alms beast is probably going to hit them for way more than they're going to gain by chump blocking.
Anyway, I quit the midrange testing because I didn't care for the turn sideways gameplay. Esper doesn't lack for quality finishers. My current deck list runs several (tamiyo, baron, aetherling, drownyards, both jaces, etc) and my problem is seldom that I don't have a finisher to cast; instead it is that I have a hard time lasting until they hit the field (even with them being 4-5cmc) when playing a blitz deck.
Yeah, Pike would be something of a 1-of, and for sure is vulnerable to removal. I don't think it's a main win-con, I would think it's more of a supportive role that if it sticks accelerates your beats.
Gideon is a magnet for crazy debates on this site. I personally like him, but in the builds that I have tried out with him I haven't found him to be quite what I was looking for. He hasn't won games for me, although he has definitely acted as a lure in some cases against aggro - but people love to say "oh great, so he's just an overcosted Fog". I am still on the fence about him. I am really feel as though there is a build scenario where he probably works amazingly, I just havent found it yet.
And yup, part of out entire issue is that we need to be able to drop a walker WITH countermana open to help him from being dreadbored on the opponents turn following the resolution. So at best that can add another cmc2 to whatever the cmc of the walker is. It's tough. It basically requires running more copies of your walkers than you might like to. That being said, when the new Legendary/Walker rules take effect, running more walkers will probably be the way most people go...
Your deck construction sounds pretty interesting and kind of along the lines of where I feel like this deck might be headed down the road. Any interest in posting it?
I'm a fan of bloodbaron. I run two mainboard in my deck and I have to say he rarely disappoints. The lifelink and protection is huge, even if his win more ability rarely every activates.
I haven't run him yet, but I am super tempted and hearing that other people have had good experiences with him helps. Im sure some people don't like him, but to me if I hear a few people say that he does work I feel like he is worth a shot for testing.
I currently run a singleton Obzedat and Aetherling main board. And then another of each in the side. It works very well currently.
Obzedat is absolutely insane against aggro as a stabiliser, and Aetherling works wonders against basically everything as we already know. That said, some games Drownyard is just great and being a basically unstoppable wincon is good when you're worried about Aetherling or Obzedat 'getting there'.
I run a single Obz and more Aetherlings. Those boys do some real work.
I had an idea the other day that might be worth looking into.
Has anyone considered the potential of Lazav triggering over and over again with Drownyards? It'd be particularly potent against Junk Reanimator, I imagine, but I have no experience with the card.
I had an idea the other day that might be worth looking into.
Has anyone considered the potential of Lazav triggering over and over again with Drownyards? It'd be particularly potent against Junk Reanimator, I imagine, but I have no experience with the card.
For sure you'd get some good activations from him that way. The only problem would be that you'd be "allowing" reanimator to keep their pool of creatures to reanimate. I guess depending on your SB approach, you might be able to have him out and activate to "clone" a big hitter and THEN use Crypt Incursion to get rid of the reanimation targets? I'm not sure if that's a "win more" scenario or not. Crypt Incursion on it's own is a problem for Reanimator, and if you have other beaters on the field maybe including Lazav isn't necessary?
I'm curious to see what people are running in their creature slots now as well. I know in the last thread, there had been a move towards augurless lists.
Yeah, Pike would be something of a 1-of, and for sure is vulnerable to removal. I don't think it's a main win-con, I would think it's more of a supportive role that if it sticks accelerates your beats.
Gideon is a magnet for crazy debates on this site. I personally like him, but in the builds that I have tried out with him I haven't found him to be quite what I was looking for. He hasn't won games for me, although he has definitely acted as a lure in some cases against aggro - but people love to say "oh great, so he's just an overcosted Fog". I am still on the fence about him. I am really feel as though there is a build scenario where he probably works amazingly, I just havent found it yet.
And yup, part of out entire issue is that we need to be able to drop a walker WITH countermana open to help him from being dreadbored on the opponents turn following the resolution. So at best that can add another cmc2 to whatever the cmc of the walker is. It's tough. It basically requires running more copies of your walkers than you might like to. That being said, when the new Legendary/Walker rules take effect, running more walkers will probably be the way most people go...
Your deck construction sounds pretty interesting and kind of along the lines of where I feel like this deck might be headed down the road. Any interest in posting it?
I deconstructed it to reconstruct my control deck, but I'll see if I can remember roughly what it was.
Some notes on some of the choices:
1. I found the Ghost Quarters were useful against all the midrange decks that use wolf run and also in the Esper control matchup
2. Orzhov Charm is useful against Verdict. Dimir Charm may be a decent side for some other since it kills aggro stuff and counters Rakdos Return.
3. Tamiyo deals with Angel of Serenity and Thragtusk. These seem to be the most dangerous creatures for this deck.
4. I chose 2 dissipates because syncopate costs too much as the goal here is to tap out frequently. Negate seems preferable to dispel in all non-control matchups though essence scatter may be a good side to prevent ETB effects (my kingdom for a Torpor Orb).
5. Playing nighthawks against Aristocrats seems bad. Lavinia does great work there though.
6. I chose pilfered plans over think twice because 5 for 2 vs 3 for 2 is worse if you normally tap out. In addition, it's a potential mill outlet if you use azorius charm to put a creature on top (I considered a couple of drownyards, but don't know if the manabase can handle them).
7. Blue seems least important early on while getting black for removal, liliana, and nighthawk seems critical vs blitz.
8. Far // Away is used because it's the only bounce in the deck (I found it useful for stromkirk noble and champion of the parish) while the sack effects are critical vs hexproof.
If you do any further testing, I'd love to know your results.
Some notes on some of the choices:
1. I found the Ghost Quarters were useful against all the midrange decks that use wolf run and also in the Esper control matchup
2. Orzhov Charm is useful against Verdict. Dimir Charm may be a decent side for some other since it kills aggro stuff and counters Rakdos Return.
3. Tamiyo deals with Angel of Serenity and Thragtusk. These seem to be the most dangerous creatures for this deck.
4. I chose 2 dissipates because syncopate costs too much as the goal here is to tap out frequently. Negate seems preferable to dispel in all non-control matchups though essence scatter may be a good side to prevent ETB effects (my kingdom for a Torpor Orb).
5. Playing nighthawks against Aristocrats seems bad. Lavinia does great work there though.
6. I chose pilfered plans over think twice because 5 for 2 vs 3 for 2 is worse if you normally tap out. In addition, it's a potential mill outlet if you use azorius charm to put a creature on top (I considered a couple of drownyards, but don't know if the manabase can handle them).
7. Blue seems least important early on while getting black for removal, liliana, and nighthawk seems critical vs blitz.
8. Far // Away is used because it's the only bounce in the deck (I found it useful for stromkirk noble and champion of the parish) while the sack effects are critical vs hexproof.
If you do any further testing, I'd love to know your results.
Interesting! I'm probably not going to play this exactly, but I think I am going to try a very similar build based on this
I don't like alms beast md, also think that Pilfered Plans is very very bad in this meta, vs reanimator if you don't have the crypt in hand is giving him resources... even that, you have to tap out, think twice its instant speed, and have retro, so you can let your mana open and even if you don't have a counter they can try to play arround it, giving you some time.
Liliana MD is something I found useless most of the time, vs junk and any token decks its a dead card, vs aristrocrats too, ( nothing impresive).. i think its more SB than MD, but depend on your meta.
Also you play a lot of creatures, I would cut the single resto, all the alms beast ( its a very bad card), and put more supreme veredict and sphinx's revelation, 3 sphinx's is a minumum, and playing 2 supreme veredict is risky, I'm playing 4, and more removal than you, and sometimes i think need "another" supreme.
I like the hawks md, vs aggro decks are golden.
I think you misunderstood. My current deck is very much a control deck (it's a couple of pages back). This deck was an experiment into an almost (if not actually) midrange esper deck.
Since this deck taps out almost every turn, the instant speed isn't really relevant for think twice, (though the mana efficiency of plans is relevant). The early turns should be spent killing things to survive to midrange. Pilfered plans (divination would also work) is actually better against reanimator. Since the deck uses RIP, they draw cards while think twice only cycles in that case. If RIP is on the field, the mill is just a little something extra, if not, you can still mill yourself. With the psychic spiral in sideboard, the few extra cards can become relevant against control too.
For control, I still don't like 3-4 revelation and play 2. My local meta plays tons of MB slaughter games. With only 2 revelation , it's a much less appealing target leaving them to name verdict (but I have a planar cleansing and terminus game 2) or even side out the slaughter games completely after looking through the deck. In my control deck,I play 2 jace, AoT to take up the slack and adding card advantage a couple of turns earlier if needed. That said, the above deck primarily uses revelation late game to draw a bunch of cards. Early game, it's mostly dead as playing creatures takes priority.
I toyed with ditching Liliana (and maybe adding one architect), but she does do some work against blitz which seemed to be the biggest threat. Four alms beasts is because of their power/cost ratio. Midrange decks with mana acceleration will be dropping a thragtusk by the time you have 4 mana. Alms beast is a decent answer as it profitably trades with their tusk and token.
When my meta was having loads of blitz decks pop up (probably 85% of decks), I mainboarded 4 nighthawks and that seemed to swing a lot of games in my favor.
The single restoration angel was mostly the 3rd snapcaster while being able to give some protection from targeted removal and being a flier as another answer to planeswalkers. When I go back to testing, I'll probably try a variant without resto and see how it goes.
Decklists go in Proven based on tournament results. Esper hasn't had much success lately, so it was moved. No reason to troll.
Personally I see this as more of a "the top players aren't playing Esper" vs this deck type not having a lot of success, but to each their own.
One thing that concerns me with the evolution of the deck is that many are still focused on Augur + Snap + Resto Angel. To me this goes more in a tempo/midrange build as opposed to a true control deck. Currently I am running 2 Snapcasters and 2 Ætherling. The rest are to deal with what the opponent plays.
What are some of the biggest challenges this deck faces at the moment?
I don't like alms beast md, also think that Pilfered Plans is very very bad in this meta, vs reanimator if you don't have the crypt in hand is giving him resources... even that, you have to tap out, think twice its instant speed, and have retro, so you can let your mana open and even if you don't have a counter they can try to play arround it, giving you some time.
Liliana MD is something I found useless most of the time, vs junk and any token decks its a dead card, vs aristrocrats too, ( nothing impresive).. i think its more SB than MD, but depend on your meta.
Also you play a lot of creatures, I would cut the single resto, all the alms beast ( its a very bad card), and put more supreme veredict and sphinx's revelation, 3 sphinx's is a minumum, and playing 2 supreme veredict is risky, I'm playing 4, and more removal than you, and sometimes i think need "another" supreme.
I like the hawks md, vs aggro decks are golden.
He was just kicking around a midrange-ish Esper deck. It's not a suggestion on what a current build should/would look like.
But there are some interesting ideas in there and I am going to mess around with some other wincons aside from drownyard and see what I come up with through testing. If I get anything that works I'll post it. I'm sure others have tried this already, and if so I'd love to see what the build was/hear how it went.
Personally I see this as more of a "the top players aren't playing Esper" vs this deck type not having a lot of success, but to each their own.
True. Although you could argue that the top players arent playing it because the meta as shifted sufficiently that this specific build is no longer competitive. But I think these are 2 sides of the same coin, as you said.
Personally I see this as more of a "the top players aren't playing Esper" vs this deck type not having a lot of success, but to each their own.
One thing that concerns me with the evolution of the deck is that many are still focused on Augur + Snap + Resto Angel. To me this goes more in a tempo/midrange build as opposed to a true control deck. Currently I am running 2 Snapcasters and 2 Ætherling. The rest are to deal with what the opponent plays.
What are some of the biggest challenges this deck faces at the moment?
I may try to fit in Sorin again, and if Bant Hexproof is on the rise Barter in Blood should probably be somewhere in the 75.
I love the idea of Staff of Nin but putrify (and slime) has me a little scared of running it. How has it been working out? If putrify and slime aren't problems, then I may consider running one or two.
Why planar cleansing in SB? You already have 7 sweepers and planar cleansing kills your own permanents too. Wouldn't pithing needle or detention sphere work better (abrupt decay aside)?
if you arent competitive with esper control, you dont know how to play the deck... this should still be in proven
Proven is based on tournament results and Esper hasn't put up good results for a long time. It hasn't actually won anything in months, and few if any top 8's (haven't checked the last couple weeks) since DGM came out. It being a sticky in Established is proof that it's good and popular, the metagame is just against it though, and proven goes by recent success, which Esper hasn't had much of.
I'll add on to this later as its quite late but I was quite successful at my stores Invitational Qualifier for Scg today and managed to make to the final and split the top prize (Wasn't too interested in the invitation, as I can rarely make those anyway). If I have time I may do a brief report but being my first cash prize tournament I was quite pleased.
I love the idea of Staff of Nin but putrify (and slime) has me a little scared of running it. How has it been working out? If putrify and slime aren't problems, then I may consider running one or two.
Why planar cleansing in SB? You already have 7 sweepers and planar cleansing kills your own permanents too. Wouldn't pithing needle or detention sphere work better (abrupt decay aside)?
I haven't played Standard in a few weeks in all honesty. I thought the mid-late game extra card drawing would be helpful, along with the damage staff can do. Vs. artifact hate I would side it out.
You're right about Cleansing. I could put in D-Sphere, but I also thought of Renounce the Guilds. That could be problematic if I have Sorin on the board.
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currently playing:
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I am an esper player and I am fine with this deck being in established. I feel that not many people dare to bring this deck to a tournament, which accounts for the poor showing. I still think that this deck is very strong, being able to trump any midrange and non-esper control matchup, and being able to live by the skin of its teeth against aggro (unless they draw the beat-any-deck hand).
The interaction with vault seems cute, if very mana intensive. Can't say augur's body is so relevant that it warrants not running snapcaster entirely but he most likely put more time into his list than me trying to take it apart. Well done all the same.
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Good call. I didnt have Tamiyo or Sorin in the original list because they don't outright win you the game. But they sure put you 90% of the way there if you can get them working right.
I keep forgetting about Blood Baron. Maybe theres an interesting build with him in it somewhere.
Runechanter and Entreat - yup. Forgot about them. I do remember a lot of people LOVING runechanter in early variants of Esper. Maybe it will make a comeback?
TBD...
Pike was great because it accelerated the tempo clock for delver and made it possible for snapcaster to attack for more than one turn due to first strike.
For current control, a pike is a conditional 4cmc (to play and equip) that only boosts the damage. I do see EOT resto then play and equip pike and swing, but putrify is a definite problem.
I don't hear much about him, but Gideon could also be played. I know people are put off by his +1 and his ultimate, but they both have their places. Vs blitz, you wipe the field and then they play the couple of creatures they've been sandbagging, you play him and give him +3. The next turn, you're swinging a 7/7. If they attack him, they probably can't kill him and you plus him again for 3-5. Against something like rites, he's a definite win condition. If he hits the field, they have just a few turns to deal with him. Once again, if they swing at him, they buy you time, if they don't he ultimates and just wins.
The weak matchup is jund because they have dreadbore. [RANT] Why did they print a 2 cost answer for planeswalkers? Even Esper can only d-sphere them for 3cmc with the POSSIBILITY that they won't come back. Everyone talks about how weak their planeswalkers are and this is the biggest reason next to resto angel that they are. A 1cmc red card that does 2 to creature/player or 3 to planeswalker would be a much less broken card.[/RANT]
I tested a midrange esper for a while. Lavinia, Baron, Alms Beast, nighthawk, resto angel, aetherling (a turn 6 that avoids removal later), and snapcasters. Because of the combination of removal and draw, it seemed to do very well against blitz and had a fairly good matchup against jund.
The real star was alms beast though, It's close to a devour flesh on a stick. For some reason people seem to think that it being a 6/6 means that the opponent gains 6 whenever it swings, but in my experience, they always chump. The thing about life is that getting more doesn't guarantee that you win, it only slows down the opponent. Put a pike on it turn 5 and it negates the only downside it has vs most creatures. If you splash green, you suddenly add thragtusk, voice, and rancor to the mix. A turn five 8/6 trample alms beast is probably going to hit them for way more than they're going to gain by chump blocking.
Anyway, I quit the midrange testing because I didn't care for the turn sideways gameplay. Esper doesn't lack for quality finishers. My current deck list runs several (tamiyo, baron, aetherling, drownyards, both jaces, etc) and my problem is seldom that I don't have a finisher to cast; instead it is that I have a hard time lasting until they hit the field (even with them being 4-5cmc) when playing a blitz deck.
Obzedat is absolutely insane against aggro as a stabiliser, and Aetherling works wonders against basically everything as we already know. That said, some games Drownyard is just great and being a basically unstoppable wincon is good when you're worried about Aetherling or Obzedat 'getting there'.
Yeah, Pike would be something of a 1-of, and for sure is vulnerable to removal. I don't think it's a main win-con, I would think it's more of a supportive role that if it sticks accelerates your beats.
Gideon is a magnet for crazy debates on this site. I personally like him, but in the builds that I have tried out with him I haven't found him to be quite what I was looking for. He hasn't won games for me, although he has definitely acted as a lure in some cases against aggro - but people love to say "oh great, so he's just an overcosted Fog". I am still on the fence about him. I am really feel as though there is a build scenario where he probably works amazingly, I just havent found it yet.
And yup, part of out entire issue is that we need to be able to drop a walker WITH countermana open to help him from being dreadbored on the opponents turn following the resolution. So at best that can add another cmc2 to whatever the cmc of the walker is. It's tough. It basically requires running more copies of your walkers than you might like to. That being said, when the new Legendary/Walker rules take effect, running more walkers will probably be the way most people go...
Your deck construction sounds pretty interesting and kind of along the lines of where I feel like this deck might be headed down the road. Any interest in posting it?
I haven't run him yet, but I am super tempted and hearing that other people have had good experiences with him helps. Im sure some people don't like him, but to me if I hear a few people say that he does work I feel like he is worth a shot for testing.
I run a single Obz and more Aetherlings. Those boys do some real work.
TBD...
Has anyone considered the potential of Lazav triggering over and over again with Drownyards? It'd be particularly potent against Junk Reanimator, I imagine, but I have no experience with the card.
For sure you'd get some good activations from him that way. The only problem would be that you'd be "allowing" reanimator to keep their pool of creatures to reanimate. I guess depending on your SB approach, you might be able to have him out and activate to "clone" a big hitter and THEN use Crypt Incursion to get rid of the reanimation targets? I'm not sure if that's a "win more" scenario or not. Crypt Incursion on it's own is a problem for Reanimator, and if you have other beaters on the field maybe including Lazav isn't necessary?
TBD...
I'm currently running 3 Snapcaster Mage, 2 Restoration Angel, 1 Aetherling, and 1 Obzedat.
What is everyone else using and how has it performed? I've only recently made this change, but its performed well in testing and FNM this week.
I deconstructed it to reconstruct my control deck, but I'll see if I can remember roughly what it was.
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Restoration Angel
4 Alms Beast
2 Blood Baron of Viskopa
2 Aetherling
Draw(5):
3 Pilfered Plans
2 Sphinx's Revelation
Counters(3):
1 Negate
2 Dissipate
2 Far // Away
1 Murder
1 Victim of the Night
2 Orzhov Charm
1 Azorius Charm
2 Cryptic incursion
2 Supreme Verdict
Planeswalkers(3):
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Lands(24):
21 Esper lands
2 Ghost Quarters
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Psychic Spiral
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Supreme Verdict
4 Appetite for Brains
2 Lavinia of the Tenth
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needles
3 Rest in Peace
Some notes on some of the choices:
1. I found the Ghost Quarters were useful against all the midrange decks that use wolf run and also in the Esper control matchup
2. Orzhov Charm is useful against Verdict. Dimir Charm may be a decent side for some other since it kills aggro stuff and counters Rakdos Return.
3. Tamiyo deals with Angel of Serenity and Thragtusk. These seem to be the most dangerous creatures for this deck.
4. I chose 2 dissipates because syncopate costs too much as the goal here is to tap out frequently. Negate seems preferable to dispel in all non-control matchups though essence scatter may be a good side to prevent ETB effects (my kingdom for a Torpor Orb).
5. Playing nighthawks against Aristocrats seems bad. Lavinia does great work there though.
6. I chose pilfered plans over think twice because 5 for 2 vs 3 for 2 is worse if you normally tap out. In addition, it's a potential mill outlet if you use azorius charm to put a creature on top (I considered a couple of drownyards, but don't know if the manabase can handle them).
7. Blue seems least important early on while getting black for removal, liliana, and nighthawk seems critical vs blitz.
8. Far // Away is used because it's the only bounce in the deck (I found it useful for stromkirk noble and champion of the parish) while the sack effects are critical vs hexproof.
If you do any further testing, I'd love to know your results.
Interesting! I'm probably not going to play this exactly, but I think I am going to try a very similar build based on this
TBD...
Decklists go in Proven based on tournament results. Esper hasn't had much success lately, so it was moved. No reason to troll.
TBD...
I think you misunderstood. My current deck is very much a control deck (it's a couple of pages back). This deck was an experiment into an almost (if not actually) midrange esper deck.
Since this deck taps out almost every turn, the instant speed isn't really relevant for think twice, (though the mana efficiency of plans is relevant). The early turns should be spent killing things to survive to midrange. Pilfered plans (divination would also work) is actually better against reanimator. Since the deck uses RIP, they draw cards while think twice only cycles in that case. If RIP is on the field, the mill is just a little something extra, if not, you can still mill yourself. With the psychic spiral in sideboard, the few extra cards can become relevant against control too.
For control, I still don't like 3-4 revelation and play 2. My local meta plays tons of MB slaughter games. With only 2 revelation , it's a much less appealing target leaving them to name verdict (but I have a planar cleansing and terminus game 2) or even side out the slaughter games completely after looking through the deck. In my control deck,I play 2 jace, AoT to take up the slack and adding card advantage a couple of turns earlier if needed. That said, the above deck primarily uses revelation late game to draw a bunch of cards. Early game, it's mostly dead as playing creatures takes priority.
I toyed with ditching Liliana (and maybe adding one architect), but she does do some work against blitz which seemed to be the biggest threat. Four alms beasts is because of their power/cost ratio. Midrange decks with mana acceleration will be dropping a thragtusk by the time you have 4 mana. Alms beast is a decent answer as it profitably trades with their tusk and token.
When my meta was having loads of blitz decks pop up (probably 85% of decks), I mainboarded 4 nighthawks and that seemed to swing a lot of games in my favor.
The single restoration angel was mostly the 3rd snapcaster while being able to give some protection from targeted removal and being a flier as another answer to planeswalkers. When I go back to testing, I'll probably try a variant without resto and see how it goes.
Personally I see this as more of a "the top players aren't playing Esper" vs this deck type not having a lot of success, but to each their own.
One thing that concerns me with the evolution of the deck is that many are still focused on Augur + Snap + Resto Angel. To me this goes more in a tempo/midrange build as opposed to a true control deck. Currently I am running 2 Snapcasters and 2 Ætherling. The rest are to deal with what the opponent plays.
What are some of the biggest challenges this deck faces at the moment?
Here is my deck for critique.
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Godless Shrine
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Watery Grave
3 Drowned Catacombs
3 Isolated Chapel
3 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Island
artifact (1)
1 Staff of Nin
creature (4)
2 Ætherling
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Azorius Charm
4 Think Twice
4 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Dissipate
2 Far//Away
planeswalker (4)
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Jace, Memory Adept
sorcery (7)
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Evil Twin
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Psychic Spiral
2 Purify the Grave
2 Crypt Incursion
2 Witchbane Orb
2 Planar Cleansing
3 Negate
I may try to fit in Sorin again, and if Bant Hexproof is on the rise Barter in Blood should probably be somewhere in the 75.
currently playing:
Standard
UW Control
UWB Control
UB Control
MODERN
BRGJund
X Affinity
UWR Control
LEGACY
Dredge
R Burn
UWx Miracles
EDH
BRW Kaalia
______
Quotes:
My Magic Card nicknames.
Also do you ever feel that 3 Jace, AOT + the Memory Adept gets too clunky?
He was just kicking around a midrange-ish Esper deck. It's not a suggestion on what a current build should/would look like.
But there are some interesting ideas in there and I am going to mess around with some other wincons aside from drownyard and see what I come up with through testing. If I get anything that works I'll post it. I'm sure others have tried this already, and if so I'd love to see what the build was/hear how it went.
True. Although you could argue that the top players arent playing it because the meta as shifted sufficiently that this specific build is no longer competitive. But I think these are 2 sides of the same coin, as you said.
TBD...
I love the idea of Staff of Nin but putrify (and slime) has me a little scared of running it. How has it been working out? If putrify and slime aren't problems, then I may consider running one or two.
Why planar cleansing in SB? You already have 7 sweepers and planar cleansing kills your own permanents too. Wouldn't pithing needle or detention sphere work better (abrupt decay aside)?
Proven is based on tournament results and Esper hasn't put up good results for a long time. It hasn't actually won anything in months, and few if any top 8's (haven't checked the last couple weeks) since DGM came out. It being a sticky in Established is proof that it's good and popular, the metagame is just against it though, and proven goes by recent success, which Esper hasn't had much of.
Thanks to Hakai Studios for the awesome sig!
Actually I did after posting this. I may swap one for a Sorin.
I haven't played Standard in a few weeks in all honesty. I thought the mid-late game extra card drawing would be helpful, along with the damage staff can do. Vs. artifact hate I would side it out.
You're right about Cleansing. I could put in D-Sphere, but I also thought of Renounce the Guilds. That could be problematic if I have Sorin on the board.
currently playing:
Standard
UW Control
UWB Control
UB Control
MODERN
BRGJund
X Affinity
UWR Control
LEGACY
Dredge
R Burn
UWx Miracles
EDH
BRW Kaalia
______
Quotes:
My Magic Card nicknames.
Current decklist:
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 AEtherling
Spells:28
4 Azorius Charm
4 Think Twice
2 Ultimate Price
2 Warped Physique
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Dissipate
4 Far // Away
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands:27
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Godless Shrine
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Nephalia Drownyard
4 Watery Grave
1 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Dispel
2 Duress
1 Devour Flesh
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Detention Sphere
2 Dissipate
2 Jace, Memory Adept
1 AEtherling
2 Terminus
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
2 Aetherling
3 Augur of Bolas
spells(25)
2 Far
3 Warped Physique
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Azorius Charm
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Dissipate
4 Lingering Souls
2 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
lands(26)
3 Isolated Chapel
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Godless Shrine
3 Watery Grave
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Devour Flesh
4 Rest in Peace
4 Appetite for Brains
2 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Negate