I don't like having only 2 revelations. Traditionally I use 4, but recently I've gone down to 3. What do you guys think?
I only run 2. If you run other forms of draw, it won't matter too much (in fact, it's better if you don't have a revelation in hand until you hit turn 6 or so). Think Twice, Augur of bolas and Jace, architect of thought all offer card advantage earlier in the game while digging up your revelations.
I only run 2. If you run other forms of draw, it won't matter too much (in fact, it's better if you don't have a revelation in hand until you hit turn 6 or so). Think Twice, Augur of bolas and Jace, architect of thought all offer card advantage earlier in the game while digging up your revelations.
Yeah, that makes sense. I'll stick with 3 for now.... I have 2 augurs, 3 think twice, and 2 JaoTs. Thanks.
I like his list a lot. The deck can with in 3 ways; Drownyard, Souls and Sorin, and Aetherling. Drownyard is strong against control, Aetherling is strong against control and midrange, and Souls and Sorin and play well against aggro and midrange. He also gives himself targets to play if a Sire is ever dropped on him. A good list that gives Esper new life.
I like his list a lot. The deck can with in 3 ways; Drownyard, Souls and Sorin, and Aetherling. Drownyard is strong against control, Aetherling is strong against control and midrange, and Souls and Sorin and play well against aggro and midrange. He also gives himself targets to play if a Sire is ever dropped on him. A good list that gives Esper new life.
From what I saw of his matchups, he got lucky vs aggro. Lingering souls isn't really an answer to aggro. It doesn't come down until turn 3 and at that point, aggro has so many creatures out that it doesn't even stall for a turn (that is, you are still taking a lot of damage). Souls only become good after control is established. If that is done and sorin gets on the field, the tokens can finally trade against x/2 and x/3 creatures to build value (but still lose to rancor).
Another note is that his deck wouldn't have a good matchup against other control decks.
A few things may look questionable, but cremate instead of think twice worked better than I ever thought it would. The Connections can easily be another sphinx (when I get around to it I suppose), and Blind could likely be something else but one hasn't hindered me. Of all the games I only won once with Drownyard, glad I only used two, and never needed to bring in Ætherling. Anyways like I said before I'm pretty happy with the list as I can't complain with the results I got.
A few things may look questionable, but cremate instead of think twice worked better than I ever thought it would. The Connections can easily be another sphinx (when I get around to it I suppose), and Blind could likely be something else but one hasn't hindered me. Of all the games I only won once with Drownyard, glad I only used two, and never needed to bring in Ætherling. Anyways like I said before I'm pretty happy with the list as I can't complain with the results I got.
Here's a critique (take it as you will). I really like the connections idea, but you need lifegain. Consider playing 3 cryptic incursion instead of the cremates, they will hit more GY targets and more importantly, they will gain you enough life to continue using connections.
Blind obedience is a great card and it's extort works wonders, but unless you're going more aggressive or tempo, you lose half of it's effects (no blockers). More lingering souls would help here (so would a second sorin).
@sasky
o-ring can target o-rings and is easier on the manabase (though I don't think that's an issue). With d-sphere being fairly inexpensive, I doubt money was the issue. Having run 2 sorin and 2 architect, I can't say that I've had poor draws as a result. Tokens do make a great win condition (and much better stall/removal) as long as you get that first -2 on sorin.
Here's a critique (take it as you will). I really like the connections idea, but you need lifegain. Consider playing 3 cryptic incursion instead of the cremates, they will hit more GY targets and more importantly, they will gain you enough life to continue using connections.
Blind obedience is a great card and it's extort works wonders, but unless you're going more aggressive or tempo, you lose half of it's effects (no blockers). More lingering souls would help here (so would a second sorin).
@sasky
o-ring can target o-rings and is easier on the manabase (though I don't think that's an issue). With d-sphere being fairly inexpensive, I doubt money was the issue. Having run 2 sorin and 2 architect, I can't say that I've had poor draws as a result. Tokens do make a great win condition (and much better stall/removal) as long as you get that first -2 on sorin.
As I mentioned the connection can easily be another sphinx, the question is really how long do I want to wait for Sphinx to drop in price.
Two problems with mb incursion: 3 cmc and creatures only. I can't begin to tell you how many rancors and undying creatures I dealt with for 1 single black, something incursion just can't do fast enough. I can see potentially one incursion being in the mb, however the deck needs to be more flexible now then ever because of how poorly positioned it is right now, and more often than not crypt is simply a stall tactic against everything but junk. In one of my earlier games yesterday on turn 6 I warped a double rancored smiter at his end step and cremated one rancor, flashed in sc and got rid of the other rancor, while sticking a creature to his empty board and on top of that drawing two cards. With incursion instead of the cremate I would gain 3 life...? I thought cremate was narrow when I tried it, but it was probably one of the better cards in the deck that day, while incursions in that slot would have been miserable. If I was to try and make a similar play as I outlined I would need an additional 4 mana; just not good at all.
As for blind I will likely continue to run it to help ensure my walkers dont die to haste creatures the following turn I cast them. Its also quite nice with tamiyo, but because its effectiveness is so narrow, 1 is all I would ever run until I feel one or both of the prior benefits are no longer applicable.
Ive never had a problem with needing more souls, and it was more than enough to make two 1/1s on 4 separate occasions in the games I saw them. Adding more would just feel far too clunky, and souls can be incredibly hit or miss. I would say the same of the walkers; if Sorin bites it the turn after hes played, I really doubt I would want to follow that up with another Sorin.
tl;dr: I thank you for your thoughts on the list, although as far as what I wanted to accomplish with my particular list the suggested changes (while they may seem minor) would alter that entirely. I built the deck to be flexible, and it accomplished just that. Though I wouldn't be to heartbroken taking out Blind and Connection for more optimal spells (those are likely the weakest of the 75).
2 Sorin and 2 Jace can lead to clunky draws. I'd pick one of them only and run 2 copies, or run a 1/1 split.
Oblivion Ring? Is it a budget alternative to D-sphere?
26 lands is pretty risky. I have games where I get screwed on 27 lands.
4 Lingering souls? I know it's good with Sorin and Vault, but it's a pretty poor meta to run LS.
I also personally prefer Snaps over Augurs, but I am fine with both.
His other card choices are rock solid though.
The O-ring switch up is to avoid Renounce the Guilds bringing back something devastating under a D-Sphere. That card is starting to creep up in play D-sphere is almost not a "strictly better" O-ring all the time.
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To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
As I mentioned the connection can easily be another sphinx, the question is really how long do I want to wait for Sphinx to drop in price.
Two problems with mb incursion: 3 cmc and creatures only. I can't begin to tell you how many rancors and undying creatures I dealt with for 1 single black, something incursion just can't do fast enough. I can see potentially one incursion being in the mb, however the deck needs to be more flexible now then ever because of how poorly positioned it is right now, and more often than not crypt is simply a stall tactic against everything but junk. In one of my earlier games yesterday on turn 6 I warped a double rancored smiter at his end step and cremated one rancor, flashed in sc and got rid of the other rancor, while sticking a creature to his empty board and on top of that drawing two cards. With incursion instead of the cremate I would gain 3 life...? I thought cremate was narrow when I tried it, but it was probably one of the better cards in the deck that day, while incursions in that slot would have been miserable. If I was to try and make a similar play as I outlined I would need an additional 4 mana; just not good at all.
As for blind I will likely continue to run it to help ensure my walkers dont die to haste creatures the following turn I cast them. Its also quite nice with tamiyo, but because its effectiveness is so narrow, 1 is all I would ever run until I feel one or both of the prior benefits are no longer applicable.
Ive never had a problem with needing more souls, and it was more than enough to make two 1/1s on 4 separate occasions in the games I saw them. Adding more would just feel far too clunky, and souls can be incredibly hit or miss. I would say the same of the walkers; if Sorin bites it the turn after hes played, I really doubt I would want to follow that up with another Sorin.
tl;dr: I thank you for your thoughts on the list, although as far as what I wanted to accomplish with my particular list the suggested changes (while they may seem minor) would alter that entirely. I built the deck to be flexible, and it accomplished just that. Though I wouldn't be to heartbroken taking out Blind and Connection for more optimal spells (those are likely the weakest of the 75).
I'm guessing that there's bigger rancor problems where you play. I generally just d-sphere them. I've played cremate, but I mostly side it against reanimation shenanigans (it isn't card advantage from the perspective that your hand is the same size after you cast it). If you think your curve is low enough, a second blind obedience could offer a more steady extort for lifegain.
I suggest crypt incursion because of the massive lifegains you get. A turn 4 verdict against blitz is bad for them, but you're a searing spear and a haste creature away from death with a half-dozen turns left before your win con does them in. A crypt incursion in that position will probably net you 15-21 life which puts the game completely out of reach for them.
A note on sorin. In my experience, he's seldom dead if you have a creature or two. Paying 4 to get an untouchable +1/+0 and absorb a hit is good enough value. if you're in a position to tick him up, the value just increases. I played 2x of him with aetherling and it really reduced the clock against opponents with blinking thragtusks. I've also used his lifelink tokens to stall boards through bad draws (those 1/1 lifelinks block all day agains all those midrange decks that don't play too many creatures).
I think people get too hung up on getting maximum value out of planeswalkers. Look at Jace, architect of thought. If you play him and +1 him, he's probably going to prevent several damage. If they swing at him instead of you, that's one more turn to get a board wipe online and while it may not be optimum value, sacrificing value to win is more important (I would note that he does a lot of work against aristocrats and junk aristocrats as he shuts down most of their creaures).
If you decide to dig, he's always value. If you need a verdict and he gets it, he may well have won you the game. If he doesn't get it and shows 3 lands, you should be even more pleased as he not only paid for himself (pay 4 to draw 2 isn't terrible) and helped you hit land drops, but he kept you from having three bad draws when you needed an answer.
All in all he's probably paid for himself, but let's say that he gets something else you need, but only one card. At worst he turns into a chump blocker. At best he either eats a spear or dreadbore (once again giving you card advantage as one out of their hand plus one in your hand for 1 is advantage) or they don't touch him and he draws again.
TL;DR -- good planeswalkers aren't completely dead even on a full board. They don't have to achieve maximum value to be worth casting.
I think you're missing the problem with Jace. While the overall meta isn't that fast, there's a few very fast decks and those are the ones you need to be able to race with Verdict. They're capable of dropping 13 power on the board on turn 3. If Jace comes down and +1's he's saving you 4 damage, but the remaining 9 coming through is usually lethal. If you're not being pressured to the point where you can spend turn 4 on card draw, Jace isn't bad. When I was running an esper planeswalker list a couple months back though what I found was that I would quite often die with Sorins, Tamiyos, and Jaces in hand. Had those walkers been spells that actually impact the board though, a lot of games that I lost I would have won.
What a guy who plays Esper locally does these days, and it's worked really well for him from what I've seen. Is he runs Tribute to Hunger as a 4 of (along with 4 devour flesh and 3 liliana... very high on sac removal). The lifegain on it quite often proves to be just enough to get him that one extra turn to establish board control.
I'm guessing that there's bigger rancor problems where you play.
^ that alone is the reason I dont run too many walkers, they just die to fast to any one creature while the rest are aimed at my life. So if the first Sorin dies and I still took a notable amount of damage, I highly doubt a second Sorin is the go to play. I really wasn't to upset to only run 1 of each walker in my list either as they were never dead cards in hand, unlike multiples of the same walker in hand.
On the topic of Liliana I would prefer her over Jace, AoT as a singleton simply because AoT is in my experience the least threatening to have alone on board (comparing to Tamiyo, Sorin, Jace MA and ofc Liliana).
^ that alone is the reason I dont run too many walkers, they just die to fast to any one creature while the rest are aimed at my life. So if the first Sorin dies and I still took a notable amount of damage, I highly doubt a second Sorin is the go to play. I really wasn't to upset to only run 1 of each walker in my list either as they were never dead cards in hand, unlike multiples of the same walker in hand.
On the topic of Liliana I would prefer her over Jace, AoT as a singleton simply because AoT is in my experience the least threatening to have alone on board (comparing to Tamiyo, Sorin, Jace MA and ofc Liliana).
If the board is empty, AoT is the greatest threat you can have as control at the moment. Control wins strictly through card advantage (which is the means of establishing control -- I recently refound the classic article on the topic here. If you've never read it, you should). Jace is recuring card draw. If he ultimates, it's probably game over for the other player.
Tamiyo is nice on an empty field, but when that happens, she isn't very relevant until she ultimates. Sorin is great because like jace, he's always relevant (the field's not empty when he's in town). I like Liliana, but I don't uptick her very much. If you miss your draw spells, she strips you of answers or land drops while most aggro players in topdeck mode don't keep too many cards in hand and start dropping them immediately if she's on the field.
I do hope they reprint Jace Beleren in M14 (they've already indicated they are printing one of the jaces) as he would be an instant 2-3 of in my deck.
If the board is empty, AoT is the greatest threat you can have as control at the moment. Control wins strictly through card advantage (which is the means of establishing control -- I recently refound the classic article on the topic here. If you've never read it, you should). Jace is recuring card draw. If he ultimates, it's probably game over for the other player.
Tamiyo is nice on an empty field, but when that happens, she isn't very relevant until she ultimates. Sorin is great because like jace, he's always relevant (the field's not empty when he's in town). I like Liliana, but I don't uptick her very much. If you miss your draw spells, she strips you of answers or land drops while most aggro players in topdeck mode don't keep too many cards in hand and start dropping them immediately if she's on the field.
I do hope they reprint Jace Beleren in M14 (they've already indicated they are printing one of the jaces) as he would be an instant 2-3 of in my deck.
I don't think I phrased this correctly, as what I was trying to get at is multiple walkers on your side can be pretty hard for an opponent to deal with and the gained advantage alone is often just too much to come back from. When I said alone I meant specifically the esper side of the board. If AoT is on board with a few opposing creatures, it may just buy you a turn if everything goes to him (not bad of course, but not the best situation to be in). Of course playing AoT to simply bait away some damage is never going to be the ideal use of the card. But unlike AoT, It is much more complicated to take out Sorin, Tamiyo and sometimes Lili simply because they can physically interact with the board, giving your opponent more narrow lines of play that require more commitment. With AoT, its usually going to be focused down instantly, or you're at a low enough life total to where he isn't even a threat if they can close the game out before multiple mini fact or fictions.
tl;dr: Since Jace AoT's interaction with the opponent is so small, all choices are still open. However with more interactive walkers, the opponent is restricted to making more dedicated lines of play, usually buying multiple turns rather than the usual one turn AoT does if the opposing side of the board is fairly threatening. Of course to offset this, AoT grants actual card advantage while the walkers typically do not.
The O-ring switch up is to avoid Renounce the Guilds bringing back something devastating under a D-Sphere. That card is starting to creep up in play D-sphere is almost not a "strictly better" O-ring all the time.
Makes a lot of sense. I think I will be switching to o-ring as well.
I do hope they reprint Jace Beleren in M14 (they've already indicated they are printing one of the jaces) as he would be an instant 2-3 of in my deck.
ME. TOO.
If he's a reprint of original Jace with a CMC3, I'd be quite happy with that. Jace AoT isn't the best draw engine and Jace MA comes down way too late to be a good draw engine. Original Jace would be an earlier drop that would let you start to draw to get to what you needed. Combo of a draw engine and possible wincon.
If he's a reprint of original Jace with a CMC3, I'd be quite happy with that. Jace AoT isn't the best draw engine and Jace MA comes down way too late to be a good draw engine. Original Jace would be an earlier drop that would let you start to draw to get to what you needed. Combo of a draw engine and possible wincon.
Well for a start he is good. And it would be the most logical reprint. They can't reprint MS, MA has had two years running, and AOT is in RTR which makes no sense. Not to mention Jace has one more version than the other planeswalker, so yet another wouldn't make any sense, especially taking into account the focus on Chandra's new rendition...Jace Belern is the most logical choice.
I wonder if a tempo / midrange version of this deck (Snaps, Resto, spot removal) would be any good to run.
Suggestions?
I would suggest the Esper Raptor deck I ran before DGM. Basic premise of the deck is to play creatures which can repeatedly evolve Cloudfin Raptor and still generate value on their own.
Cloudfin Raptor
Snapcaster Mage
Geist of Saint Traft (Angel evolves a Raptor every time it hits play)
Restoration Angel (Additional value with Snapcaster, can protect Geist, can potentially evolve Raptor twice if triggers are stacked properly)
Top out with Obzedat if you want to (Powerhouse in and of himself, plays well with Angel, continues to evolve Raptor)
Play any tempo spells you like (Feeling of Dread pushes many blockers out of the way, so does Unsummon, Far // Away, etc.)
Orzhov Charm is a strong card in the deck as well because it removes anything and can bring a Raptor back on occasion.
Azorius Charm can generate a lot of life for you when you're swinging with a large Raptor + Geist and Angel token or can be used to protect the Geist or other creatures.
The deck is a ton of fun to play and is quite powerful and flexible.
I've been thinking of new ways to evolve the traditional Esper control deck. I was using 0 walkers, 15 spot removal (not including 2 snaps), 6 board wipes, and 15 sources of card draw and it still wouldn't be enough against some of the more resilient decks present in today's standard. I could defeat the hyper aggro decks easily, but value decks like Junk Reanimator and other Voice decks were somewhat of a problem.
All in all, the problem could be summarized as that value creatures are just too good right now, and the removal present doesnt always hold up to them. So I'v been thinking about how to fight back against all the value coming at us, and the answer is simple:
Deny our opponents value!
Seems easy, too easy in fact, but the true challenge lies in figuring out how we go about it. I have found that you can throw removal spells at your opponent all day, but it doesnt actually deny them value, it just gives them more. I'm talking about cards like Thragtusk, Voice of Resurgence, Strangleroot Geist, Lingering Souls and Cartel Aristocrat. Trying to use removal spells on cards like these only makes us play into their game plan and once again gives them more value out of their cards. Board wipes are the only good thing we have to actually control the fire so to speak. But we only have so many of those, and if your playing against an opponent who knows what he's doing, its very easy to play around them.
So how do we deny our opponents value? Cards like Terminus have already been discussed and I think thats a great start. Terminus is very well positioned right now and at least takes care of a few of those value creatures that give us headaches. But the card I really want to talk about is Curse of Death's Hold. I spoke about this briefly in the old thread. It wasnt my idea, but while I never said it was great, I did mention that it allows us to be more pro-active instead of re-active. But now that Dragons Maze has fully settled into the meta, I think it needs re examining.
Lets think about this. The Aristocrats is a thing, and 1 Curse just outright beats their whole deck. Just survive until you drop 1 Curse and then you no longer have to focus on board control. Curse is also insane against Bant Hexproof. A lot of other things happen when Curse lands. Against Reanimator, a curse insta kills all future Sin Collectors and 2 curses make their value creatures way less valuable. With one Curse out, opponent's Thragtusk only bring 6 power instead of 8, and with 2 Curses, they pay 5 mana for a measly 4 power. Finally, we are denying value. Against AEtherling, Curse not only shrinks him down, but also limits the amount of times he can be pumped. An unobstructed AEtherling can go as high as 8 power, but with a curse he goes down to 6.
Collectively, I think all these things warrant giving Curse another look. I am currently testing it now but it required completely re working my deck to fit it in, and I'm still trying to modify the exact build. Ideally, I would use a 4 Curse deck to try and hit the sweet spot of having at least 2 out, but as I stated earlier, the details of how to do that are still getting worked out.
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Current standard decks:
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
Because he's not new and not memory adept or the mind sculptor (even though TMS wouldn't be as broken in the standard environment of today). I suppose a new jace is possible (especially if they had two on the table for RTR they liked, but needed to axe one of them).
The only problem with Jace Beleren (the card -- not the character) is that he can't be dropped turn 3 most of the time in the current meta against anything except midrange with an almost empty board (I tested him against a couple of decks this week just to see what would happen).
Like the last time he was in standard, he's simply a draw 3 for 3cmc. +2 on him is a huge don't do against aggro (the extra draw means the onslaught gets much worse and he still dies) and can still be iffy against some midrange. I only find +2 useful if I want to keep up the 3:1 draw ratio. The fact that you must give your opponent 4 cards before the mill 20 occurs means the ultimate isn't that useful in most matchups. Perhaps there's a use with Liliana of the veil to tick both up (giving both players a free desolate lighthouse activation for 4 turns before you mill them for 20 and fact or fiction their permenants, but I see this scenario as unlikely to occur frequently (though there will be fewer penalties to running 4 of each when M14 hits).
I still think AoT is better because of the flexibility, but I also think I'd rather have beleren than memory adept.
Jace Beleran's +2 is pretty crazy with Notion Thief. Free Divinations is never bad. If he does come out in M14 I expect to see that as a primary play in UB based control strategies - being able to top it off with S.Rev. will let you out-card-advantage any other deck reasonably easily.
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I only run 2. If you run other forms of draw, it won't matter too much (in fact, it's better if you don't have a revelation in hand until you hit turn 6 or so). Think Twice, Augur of bolas and Jace, architect of thought all offer card advantage earlier in the game while digging up your revelations.
Yeah, that makes sense. I'll stick with 3 for now.... I have 2 augurs, 3 think twice, and 2 JaoTs. Thanks.
I like his list a lot. The deck can with in 3 ways; Drownyard, Souls and Sorin, and Aetherling. Drownyard is strong against control, Aetherling is strong against control and midrange, and Souls and Sorin and play well against aggro and midrange. He also gives himself targets to play if a Sire is ever dropped on him. A good list that gives Esper new life.
From what I saw of his matchups, he got lucky vs aggro. Lingering souls isn't really an answer to aggro. It doesn't come down until turn 3 and at that point, aggro has so many creatures out that it doesn't even stall for a turn (that is, you are still taking a lot of damage). Souls only become good after control is established. If that is done and sorin gets on the field, the tokens can finally trade against x/2 and x/3 creatures to build value (but still lose to rancor).
Another note is that his deck wouldn't have a good matchup against other control decks.
3x Drowned Catacomb
4x Glacial Fortress
3x Godless Shrine
4x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Vault of the Archangel
4x Isolated Chapel
2x Nephalia Drownyard
3x Watery Grave
Spells (23)
4x Azorius Charm
2x Dissipate
2x Far // Away
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Lingering Souls
2x Warped Physique
3x Terminus
3x Supreme Verdict
3x Cremate
2x Detention Sphere
1x Blind Obedience
1x Underworld Connections
Planeswalkers (3)
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Creatures (4)
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Obzedat, Ghost Council
1x Renounce the Guilds
2x Riot Control
2x Dispel
2x Negate
1x Ætherling
2x Appetite for Brains
1x Crypt Incursion
2x Evil Twin
1x Notion Thief
1x Elixir of Immortality
A few things may look questionable, but cremate instead of think twice worked better than I ever thought it would. The Connections can easily be another sphinx (when I get around to it I suppose), and Blind could likely be something else but one hasn't hindered me. Of all the games I only won once with Drownyard, glad I only used two, and never needed to bring in Ætherling. Anyways like I said before I'm pretty happy with the list as I can't complain with the results I got.
Thanks to Hakai Studios for the awesome sig!
2 Sorin and 2 Jace can lead to clunky draws. I'd pick one of them only and run 2 copies, or run a 1/1 split.
Oblivion Ring? Is it a budget alternative to D-sphere?
26 lands is pretty risky. I have games where I get screwed on 27 lands.
4 Lingering souls? I know it's good with Sorin and Vault, but it's a pretty poor meta to run LS.
I also personally prefer Snaps over Augurs, but I am fine with both.
His other card choices are rock solid though.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Here's a critique (take it as you will). I really like the connections idea, but you need lifegain. Consider playing 3 cryptic incursion instead of the cremates, they will hit more GY targets and more importantly, they will gain you enough life to continue using connections.
Blind obedience is a great card and it's extort works wonders, but unless you're going more aggressive or tempo, you lose half of it's effects (no blockers). More lingering souls would help here (so would a second sorin).
@sasky
o-ring can target o-rings and is easier on the manabase (though I don't think that's an issue). With d-sphere being fairly inexpensive, I doubt money was the issue. Having run 2 sorin and 2 architect, I can't say that I've had poor draws as a result. Tokens do make a great win condition (and much better stall/removal) as long as you get that first -2 on sorin.
As I mentioned the connection can easily be another sphinx, the question is really how long do I want to wait for Sphinx to drop in price.
Two problems with mb incursion: 3 cmc and creatures only. I can't begin to tell you how many rancors and undying creatures I dealt with for 1 single black, something incursion just can't do fast enough. I can see potentially one incursion being in the mb, however the deck needs to be more flexible now then ever because of how poorly positioned it is right now, and more often than not crypt is simply a stall tactic against everything but junk. In one of my earlier games yesterday on turn 6 I warped a double rancored smiter at his end step and cremated one rancor, flashed in sc and got rid of the other rancor, while sticking a creature to his empty board and on top of that drawing two cards. With incursion instead of the cremate I would gain 3 life...? I thought cremate was narrow when I tried it, but it was probably one of the better cards in the deck that day, while incursions in that slot would have been miserable. If I was to try and make a similar play as I outlined I would need an additional 4 mana; just not good at all.
As for blind I will likely continue to run it to help ensure my walkers dont die to haste creatures the following turn I cast them. Its also quite nice with tamiyo, but because its effectiveness is so narrow, 1 is all I would ever run until I feel one or both of the prior benefits are no longer applicable.
Ive never had a problem with needing more souls, and it was more than enough to make two 1/1s on 4 separate occasions in the games I saw them. Adding more would just feel far too clunky, and souls can be incredibly hit or miss. I would say the same of the walkers; if Sorin bites it the turn after hes played, I really doubt I would want to follow that up with another Sorin.
tl;dr: I thank you for your thoughts on the list, although as far as what I wanted to accomplish with my particular list the suggested changes (while they may seem minor) would alter that entirely. I built the deck to be flexible, and it accomplished just that. Though I wouldn't be to heartbroken taking out Blind and Connection for more optimal spells (those are likely the weakest of the 75).
Thanks to Hakai Studios for the awesome sig!
The O-ring switch up is to avoid Renounce the Guilds bringing back something devastating under a D-Sphere. That card is starting to creep up in play D-sphere is almost not a "strictly better" O-ring all the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
I'm guessing that there's bigger rancor problems where you play. I generally just d-sphere them. I've played cremate, but I mostly side it against reanimation shenanigans (it isn't card advantage from the perspective that your hand is the same size after you cast it). If you think your curve is low enough, a second blind obedience could offer a more steady extort for lifegain.
I suggest crypt incursion because of the massive lifegains you get. A turn 4 verdict against blitz is bad for them, but you're a searing spear and a haste creature away from death with a half-dozen turns left before your win con does them in. A crypt incursion in that position will probably net you 15-21 life which puts the game completely out of reach for them.
A note on sorin. In my experience, he's seldom dead if you have a creature or two. Paying 4 to get an untouchable +1/+0 and absorb a hit is good enough value. if you're in a position to tick him up, the value just increases. I played 2x of him with aetherling and it really reduced the clock against opponents with blinking thragtusks. I've also used his lifelink tokens to stall boards through bad draws (those 1/1 lifelinks block all day agains all those midrange decks that don't play too many creatures).
I think people get too hung up on getting maximum value out of planeswalkers. Look at Jace, architect of thought. If you play him and +1 him, he's probably going to prevent several damage. If they swing at him instead of you, that's one more turn to get a board wipe online and while it may not be optimum value, sacrificing value to win is more important (I would note that he does a lot of work against aristocrats and junk aristocrats as he shuts down most of their creaures).
If you decide to dig, he's always value. If you need a verdict and he gets it, he may well have won you the game. If he doesn't get it and shows 3 lands, you should be even more pleased as he not only paid for himself (pay 4 to draw 2 isn't terrible) and helped you hit land drops, but he kept you from having three bad draws when you needed an answer.
All in all he's probably paid for himself, but let's say that he gets something else you need, but only one card. At worst he turns into a chump blocker. At best he either eats a spear or dreadbore (once again giving you card advantage as one out of their hand plus one in your hand for 1 is advantage) or they don't touch him and he draws again.
TL;DR -- good planeswalkers aren't completely dead even on a full board. They don't have to achieve maximum value to be worth casting.
Suggestions?
currently playing:
Standard
UW Control
UWB Control
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MODERN
BRGJund
X Affinity
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______
Quotes:
My Magic Card nicknames.
What a guy who plays Esper locally does these days, and it's worked really well for him from what I've seen. Is he runs Tribute to Hunger as a 4 of (along with 4 devour flesh and 3 liliana... very high on sac removal). The lifegain on it quite often proves to be just enough to get him that one extra turn to establish board control.
^ that alone is the reason I dont run too many walkers, they just die to fast to any one creature while the rest are aimed at my life. So if the first Sorin dies and I still took a notable amount of damage, I highly doubt a second Sorin is the go to play. I really wasn't to upset to only run 1 of each walker in my list either as they were never dead cards in hand, unlike multiples of the same walker in hand.
On the topic of Liliana I would prefer her over Jace, AoT as a singleton simply because AoT is in my experience the least threatening to have alone on board (comparing to Tamiyo, Sorin, Jace MA and ofc Liliana).
Thanks to Hakai Studios for the awesome sig!
If the board is empty, AoT is the greatest threat you can have as control at the moment. Control wins strictly through card advantage (which is the means of establishing control -- I recently refound the classic article on the topic here. If you've never read it, you should). Jace is recuring card draw. If he ultimates, it's probably game over for the other player.
Tamiyo is nice on an empty field, but when that happens, she isn't very relevant until she ultimates. Sorin is great because like jace, he's always relevant (the field's not empty when he's in town). I like Liliana, but I don't uptick her very much. If you miss your draw spells, she strips you of answers or land drops while most aggro players in topdeck mode don't keep too many cards in hand and start dropping them immediately if she's on the field.
I do hope they reprint Jace Beleren in M14 (they've already indicated they are printing one of the jaces) as he would be an instant 2-3 of in my deck.
I don't think I phrased this correctly, as what I was trying to get at is multiple walkers on your side can be pretty hard for an opponent to deal with and the gained advantage alone is often just too much to come back from. When I said alone I meant specifically the esper side of the board. If AoT is on board with a few opposing creatures, it may just buy you a turn if everything goes to him (not bad of course, but not the best situation to be in). Of course playing AoT to simply bait away some damage is never going to be the ideal use of the card. But unlike AoT, It is much more complicated to take out Sorin, Tamiyo and sometimes Lili simply because they can physically interact with the board, giving your opponent more narrow lines of play that require more commitment. With AoT, its usually going to be focused down instantly, or you're at a low enough life total to where he isn't even a threat if they can close the game out before multiple mini fact or fictions.
tl;dr: Since Jace AoT's interaction with the opponent is so small, all choices are still open. However with more interactive walkers, the opponent is restricted to making more dedicated lines of play, usually buying multiple turns rather than the usual one turn AoT does if the opposing side of the board is fairly threatening. Of course to offset this, AoT grants actual card advantage while the walkers typically do not.
Thanks to Hakai Studios for the awesome sig!
Makes a lot of sense. I think I will be switching to o-ring as well.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
ME. TOO.
If he's a reprint of original Jace with a CMC3, I'd be quite happy with that. Jace AoT isn't the best draw engine and Jace MA comes down way too late to be a good draw engine. Original Jace would be an earlier drop that would let you start to draw to get to what you needed. Combo of a draw engine and possible wincon.
TBD...
Why would they ever reprint that planeswalker?
Well for a start he is good. And it would be the most logical reprint. They can't reprint MS, MA has had two years running, and AOT is in RTR which makes no sense. Not to mention Jace has one more version than the other planeswalker, so yet another wouldn't make any sense, especially taking into account the focus on Chandra's new rendition...Jace Belern is the most logical choice.
...because Core set walkers get reprinted...
are you under the impression we were talking about Jace TMS?
TBD...
I would suggest the Esper Raptor deck I ran before DGM. Basic premise of the deck is to play creatures which can repeatedly evolve Cloudfin Raptor and still generate value on their own.
Cloudfin Raptor
Snapcaster Mage
Geist of Saint Traft (Angel evolves a Raptor every time it hits play)
Restoration Angel (Additional value with Snapcaster, can protect Geist, can potentially evolve Raptor twice if triggers are stacked properly)
Top out with Obzedat if you want to (Powerhouse in and of himself, plays well with Angel, continues to evolve Raptor)
Play any tempo spells you like (Feeling of Dread pushes many blockers out of the way, so does Unsummon, Far // Away, etc.)
Orzhov Charm is a strong card in the deck as well because it removes anything and can bring a Raptor back on occasion.
Azorius Charm can generate a lot of life for you when you're swinging with a large Raptor + Geist and Angel token or can be used to protect the Geist or other creatures.
The deck is a ton of fun to play and is quite powerful and flexible.
All in all, the problem could be summarized as that value creatures are just too good right now, and the removal present doesnt always hold up to them. So I'v been thinking about how to fight back against all the value coming at us, and the answer is simple:
Deny our opponents value!
Seems easy, too easy in fact, but the true challenge lies in figuring out how we go about it. I have found that you can throw removal spells at your opponent all day, but it doesnt actually deny them value, it just gives them more. I'm talking about cards like Thragtusk, Voice of Resurgence, Strangleroot Geist, Lingering Souls and Cartel Aristocrat. Trying to use removal spells on cards like these only makes us play into their game plan and once again gives them more value out of their cards. Board wipes are the only good thing we have to actually control the fire so to speak. But we only have so many of those, and if your playing against an opponent who knows what he's doing, its very easy to play around them.
So how do we deny our opponents value? Cards like Terminus have already been discussed and I think thats a great start. Terminus is very well positioned right now and at least takes care of a few of those value creatures that give us headaches. But the card I really want to talk about is Curse of Death's Hold. I spoke about this briefly in the old thread. It wasnt my idea, but while I never said it was great, I did mention that it allows us to be more pro-active instead of re-active. But now that Dragons Maze has fully settled into the meta, I think it needs re examining.
Lets think about this. The Aristocrats is a thing, and 1 Curse just outright beats their whole deck. Just survive until you drop 1 Curse and then you no longer have to focus on board control. Curse is also insane against Bant Hexproof. A lot of other things happen when Curse lands. Against Reanimator, a curse insta kills all future Sin Collectors and 2 curses make their value creatures way less valuable. With one Curse out, opponent's Thragtusk only bring 6 power instead of 8, and with 2 Curses, they pay 5 mana for a measly 4 power. Finally, we are denying value. Against AEtherling, Curse not only shrinks him down, but also limits the amount of times he can be pumped. An unobstructed AEtherling can go as high as 8 power, but with a curse he goes down to 6.
Collectively, I think all these things warrant giving Curse another look. I am currently testing it now but it required completely re working my deck to fit it in, and I'm still trying to modify the exact build. Ideally, I would use a 4 Curse deck to try and hit the sweet spot of having at least 2 out, but as I stated earlier, the details of how to do that are still getting worked out.
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
The only problem with Jace Beleren (the card -- not the character) is that he can't be dropped turn 3 most of the time in the current meta against anything except midrange with an almost empty board (I tested him against a couple of decks this week just to see what would happen).
Like the last time he was in standard, he's simply a draw 3 for 3cmc. +2 on him is a huge don't do against aggro (the extra draw means the onslaught gets much worse and he still dies) and can still be iffy against some midrange. I only find +2 useful if I want to keep up the 3:1 draw ratio. The fact that you must give your opponent 4 cards before the mill 20 occurs means the ultimate isn't that useful in most matchups. Perhaps there's a use with Liliana of the veil to tick both up (giving both players a free desolate lighthouse activation for 4 turns before you mill them for 20 and fact or fiction their permenants, but I see this scenario as unlikely to occur frequently (though there will be fewer penalties to running 4 of each when M14 hits).
I still think AoT is better because of the flexibility, but I also think I'd rather have beleren than memory adept.