Jace Beleran's +2 is pretty crazy with Notion Thief. Free Divinations is never bad. If he does come out in M14 I expect to see that as a primary play in UB based control strategies - being able to top it off with S.Rev. will let you out-card-advantage any other deck reasonably easily.
I hadn't given that any thought, but it could solve the problem. I do say, I've thought it would be interesting to win by decking an opponent with revelation when they have notion thief in play.
I've been thinking of new ways to evolve the traditional Esper control deck. I was using 0 walkers, 15 spot removal (not including 2 snaps), 6 board wipes, and 15 sources of card draw and it still wouldn't be enough against some of the more resilient decks present in today's standard. I could defeat the hyper aggro decks easily, but value decks like Junk Reanimator and other Voice decks were somewhat of a problem.
All in all, the problem could be summarized as that value creatures are just too good right now, and the removal present doesnt always hold up to them. So I'v been thinking about how to fight back against all the value coming at us, and the answer is simple:
Deny our opponents value!
Seems easy, too easy in fact, but the true challenge lies in figuring out how we go about it. I have found that you can throw removal spells at your opponent all day, but it doesnt actually deny them value, it just gives them more. I'm talking about cards like Thragtusk, Voice of Resurgence, Strangleroot Geist, Lingering Souls and Cartel Aristocrat. Trying to use removal spells on cards like these only makes us play into their game plan and once again gives them more value out of their cards. Board wipes are the only good thing we have to actually control the fire so to speak. But we only have so many of those, and if your playing against an opponent who knows what he's doing, its very easy to play around them.
So how do we deny our opponents value? Cards like Terminus have already been discussed and I think thats a great start. Terminus is very well positioned right now and at least takes care of a few of those value creatures that give us headaches. But the card I really want to talk about is Curse of Death's Hold. I spoke about this briefly in the old thread. It wasnt my idea, but while I never said it was great, I did mention that it allows us to be more pro-active instead of re-active. But now that Dragons Maze has fully settled into the meta, I think it needs re examining.
Lets think about this. The Aristocrats is a thing, and 1 Curse just outright beats their whole deck. Just survive until you drop 1 Curse and then you no longer have to focus on board control. Curse is also insane against Bant Hexproof. A lot of other things happen when Curse lands. Against Reanimator, a curse insta kills all future Sin Collectors and 2 curses make their value creatures way less valuable. With one Curse out, opponent's Thragtusk only bring 6 power instead of 8, and with 2 Curses, they pay 5 mana for a measly 4 power. Finally, we are denying value. Against AEtherling, Curse not only shrinks him down, but also limits the amount of times he can be pumped. An unobstructed AEtherling can go as high as 8 power, but with a curse he goes down to 6.
Collectively, I think all these things warrant giving Curse another look. I am currently testing it now but it required completely re working my deck to fit it in, and I'm still trying to modify the exact build. Ideally, I would use a 4 Curse deck to try and hit the sweet spot of having at least 2 out, but as I stated earlier, the details of how to do that are still getting worked out.
I played one in sideboard for a long time and played 2 when tokens were bad (there's better hate now vs tokens with illness in the ranks). If I see a rise in aristocrats in my meta, I'll probably consider playing illness and/or curse of deaths hold. I might also play one to handle voice of resurgence as it allows me to board wipe and kill the token (assuming there's just one)
Remember though that ETB effects don't cease to exist because you have a curse in play.
A note on the 15 kill spells: you should consider lowering the amount of kill spells and increasing the number of draw and utility spells. Dissipate and syncopate always counter and exile instants and sorceries even if cavern is in play (and ghost quarter is a thing there too).
Evil twin is getting better with the legend rule changes and offers great value against midrange decks that rely heavily on a couple of creatures. As a bonus, it and aetherling share a creature type, so cavern is more usable in the control matches (and if they are unlucky enough to not have removal, it's an infinite payUB: force aetherling to blink instead of attack).
You should also consider sever the bloodline as it exiles and can hit multiple creatures. I've also considered it vs voice and tokens.
On the bright side, tokens will be out as soon as ratchet bomb comes back.
illness in the ranks[/card]). If I see a rise in aristocrats in my meta, I'll probably consider playing illness and/or curse of deaths hold. I might also play one to handle voice of resurgence as it allows me to board wipe and kill the token (assuming there's just one)
Remember though that ETB effects don't cease to exist because you have a curse in play.
A note on the 15 kill spells: you should consider lowering the amount of kill spells and increasing the number of draw and utility spells. Dissipate and syncopate always counter and exile instants and sorceries even if cavern is in play (and ghost quarter is a thing there too).
Evil twin is getting better with the legend rule changes and offers great value against midrange decks that rely heavily on a couple of creatures. As a bonus, it and aetherling share a creature type, so cavern is more usable in the control matches (and if they are unlucky enough to not have removal, it's an infinite payUB: force aetherling to blink instead of attack).
You should also consider sever the bloodline as it exiles and can hit multiple creatures. I've also considered it vs voice and tokens.
On the bright side, tokens will be out as soon as ratchet bomb comes back.
The problem is all these solutions involve us being reactive instead of proactive. Against a lot of decks, having 3 curses out just spells game over on the spot. Im not too worried about just the ETB effects. Sin Collector and Acidic slime are the only ETB effects that are actually good against esper, but the creatures are good because they are creatures on top of having powerful effects. Without the creature portion of the card they are no where close to as good. On the issue of Sever the Bloodline, I actually made an old thread about using it, but in testing it was only OK but not good enough to make the 75.
I also probably worded my original deck design poorly. My deck has 15 removal spells but not necessarily 15 kills spells. Included in the 15 are 5 counterspells (3 dissipate 2 synopate) and 4 azorius charms (probably the best spot removal we have).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current standard decks:
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
The problem is all these solutions involve us being reactive instead of proactive. Against a lot of decks, having 3 curses out just spells game over on the spot. Im not too worried about just the ETB effects. Sin Collector and Acidic slime are the only ETB effects that are actually good against esper, but the creatures are good because they are creatures on top of having powerful effects. Without the creature portion of the card they are no where close to as good. On the issue of Sever the Bloodline, I actually made an old thread about using it, but in testing it was only OK but not good enough to make the 75.
I also probably worded my original deck design poorly. My deck has 15 removal spells but not necessarily 15 kills spells. Included in the 15 are 5 counterspells (3 dissipate 2 synopate) and 4 azorius charms (probably the best spot removal we have).
My problem with having them mainboard is that they don't drop until turn 5 and I must tap out to play them. It's worth mentioning that acidic slime destroys enchantments. I've been testing sever the bloodline since Esper doesn't have pillar of flame. I found it works fairly well as sideboard against voice while flashback means it offers card advantage.
My problem with having them mainboard is that they don't drop until turn 5 and I must tap out to play them. It's worth mentioning that acidic slime destroys enchantments. I've been testing sever the bloodline since Esper doesn't have pillar of flame. I found it works fairly well as sideboard against voice while flashback means it offers card advantage.
Thats why I had to redesign the deck to fit the Curse. Curse won't work in a draw/go shell. You essentially just run fewer counter spells and more spells that remove things you want to counter. O-Ring and D-Sphere are acceptable replacements, although not quite as good as a counter. Tapping out for 1 isnt always bad assuming you use common sense cast it at an appropriate time. Having to wait till turn 5 isnt terrible either, seeing as hyper aggressive decks don't really beat me that much anyways.
Feel free to draw your own conclusions about the card, but I'll be running it in the main board. I've played a draw/go shell of Esper Control since January and never experienced trouble until Dragons Maze. Sure FNM's still go smoothly (weekly top 4), but that type of success doesnt interest me anymore. At SCG and TCGplayer events (more competitive metas) the field is just too hostile and attacks from too many directions. This is evidenced by tournament results. The one deck that made it into an Open top 8 clearly lucksacked in.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current standard decks:
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
Thats why I had to redesign the deck to fit the Curse. Curse won't work in a draw/go shell. You essentially just run fewer counter spells and more spells that remove things you want to counter. O-Ring and D-Sphere are acceptable replacements, although not quite as good as a counter. Tapping out for 1 isnt always bad assuming you use common sense cast it at an appropriate time. Having to wait till turn 5 isnt terrible either, seeing as hyper aggressive decks don't really beat me that much anyways.
Feel free to draw your own conclusions about the card, but I'll be running it in the main board. I've played a draw/go shell of Esper Control since January and never experienced trouble until Dragons Maze. Sure FNM's still go smoothly (weekly top 4), but that type of success doesnt interest me anymore. At SCG and TCGplayer events (more competitive metas) the field is just too hostile and attacks from too many directions. This is evidenced by tournament results. The one deck that made it into an Open top 8 clearly lucksacked in.
I mostly keep my o-rings/d-spheres in sideboard too as abrupt decay gets a lot of play in my meta. I've done some work on a tapout deck, but it's much harder to work with as jund or junk permenants are much better overall.
Now hear me out - I think Azorious charm is weak because voice is everywhere, and planeswalkers are bad right now imo. I want to be able to kill the turn 1, or 2 play against aggro everygame... and everything else. Aetherling is good. Deck has natural strengths against midrange and control on paper, and I'll diversify win-cons after boards. Need to figure that out. This is where I'm gonna start testing for my PTQ anyway, thoughts?
Also, I agree Curse of Death's Hold is well positioned. I think it should be a 3-of in the board.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Winner of the MTGSalvation Standard Championships III & IV.
are you under the impression we were talking about Jace TMS?
No, I'm talking about Jace Beleren, a 3-mana planeswalker that can start at a functional 5 counters to keep itself alive and which produces an avalanche of card advantage for no further investment, as the game goes on. I'm talking about a card that was only bad against a handful of decks over the duration of its existence in standard, the biggest one being Faeries (any planeswalker sucks against a deck full of evasive flash threats and manlands) and the second-biggest one being variants of Jund--but even against Jund the card was still powerful enough to be played before JTMS was printed. It probably would have still seen a dominating amount of play, through the BBEs and Blightnings, if the most powerful planeswalker hadn't come out halfway through the tyranny of Jund in Standard.
It's not like they would never print 3-mana (or less) planeswalkers ever again; obviously that's not true as there are 3 in Standard. But Jace Beleren is on a higher power level than Domri Rade, and it grows loyalty twice as effectively as Liliana of the Veil. Frankly, mutual draw is much easier to slide into any deck than mutual discard, and having +2 and -1 abilities is obviously more efficient than +1 and -2 abilities. This isn't to take anything away from Domri or LiliVeil, but the fact that both of those planeswalkers are very good and Beleren is stronger...is a bit ridiculous.
Now, if it came back, it wouldn't ruin the format, but do people actually think they want to have that powerful a draw engine in the format? In blue? Sure, I wish it would come back...but it just doesn't follow the trend of set design for OG Jace to return. Maybe next year, I could see it, but I just don't envision it happening this soon. People still remember how much JTMS warped and ruined Standard (among other formats), and that seriously contributed to why they rotated out Beleren as well--printed a very expensive Jace instead, and then the new 4-mana Jace is now a lot less powerful than either of the first two. (I like Architect a lot, I think it's a well-designed card, and I like what it does when I play with it, but the card is just on a lower power level than Beleren because it can't continuously draw cards each turn. In fact, it takes 2 turns of +1ing it to recharge it once for another draw...how does that compare to Beleren's steady stream of draw?)
They have made 4 different Jaces already. That's more than any other planeswalker, so far. It would make sense to reprint an old one...but are we really wishing for that nice of a thing? I mean, I want it too--but let's be realistic: we're not getting it.
No, I'm talking about Jace Beleren, a 3-mana planeswalker that can start at a functional 5 counters to keep itself alive and which produces an avalanche of card advantage for no further investment, as the game goes on. I'm talking about a card that was only bad against a handful of decks over the duration of its existence in standard, the biggest one being Faeries (any planeswalker sucks against a deck full of evasive flash threats and manlands) and the second-biggest one being variants of Jund--but even against Jund the card was still powerful enough to be played before JTMS was printed. It probably would have still seen a dominating amount of play, through the BBEs and Blightnings, if the most powerful planeswalker hadn't come out halfway through the tyranny of Jund in Standard.
It's not like they would never print 3-mana (or less) planeswalkers ever again; obviously that's not true as there are 3 in Standard. But Jace Beleren is on a higher power level than Domri Rade, and it grows loyalty twice as effectively as Liliana of the Veil. Frankly, mutual draw is much easier to slide into any deck than mutual discard, and having +2 and -1 abilities is obviously more efficient than +1 and -2 abilities. This isn't to take anything away from Domri or LiliVeil, but the fact that both of those planeswalkers are very good and Beleren is stronger...is a bit ridiculous.
Now, if it came back, it wouldn't ruin the format, but do people actually think they want to have that powerful a draw engine in the format? In blue? Sure, I wish it would come back...but it just doesn't follow the trend of set design for OG Jace to return. Maybe next year, I could see it, but I just don't envision it happening this soon. People still remember how much JTMS warped and ruined Standard (among other formats), and that seriously contributed to why they rotated out Beleren as well--printed a very expensive Jace instead, and then the new 4-mana Jace is now a lot less powerful than either of the first two. (I like Architect a lot, I think it's a well-designed card, and I like what it does when I play with it, but the card is just on a lower power level than Beleren because it can't continuously draw cards each turn. In fact, it takes 2 turns of +1ing it to recharge it once for another draw...how does that compare to Beleren's steady stream of draw?)
They have made 4 different Jaces already. That's more than any other planeswalker, so far. It would make sense to reprint an old one...but are we really wishing for that nice of a thing? I mean, I want it too--but let's be realistic: we're not getting it.
Here's to hoping I'm totally wrong....
Honestly, I think mutual discard is a more powerful effect. If your deck has drawing power, you can draw out of the discard, but it's likely that your opponent can't. Give them some gas and they'll run faster than you can kill off those value creatures that leave presents when they exit the battlefield. If I've established control, I want to keep it. If I haven't, I don't want to make my problem worse. That said, in a format with fast decks, searing spear, dreadbore, restoration angel, and similar, I don't see jace beleren ever getting out of hand.
I think the chances of reprinting beleren are high. It's either him or memory adept again as they won't print TMS having said he was a mistake. I think there's a chance of a new jace, but I think it's more likely that they're going to do a rerun on the original 5 planeswalkers.
Rotation is still 5 months away. Shut. Up. This is kinda why I hate it when some of these decks get demoted to Established because people will cry about "well if we had this it would be better" and post rotation talk. If you seriously want to abuse Notion Thief in that Jace beleren way there is otherworldy atlas.
Rotation is still 5 months away. Shut. Up. This is kinda why I hate it when some of these decks get demoted to Established because people will cry about "well if we had this it would be better" and post rotation talk. If you seriously want to abuse Notion Thief in that Jace beleren way there is otherworldy atlas.
We weren't saying that jace beleren was necessary nor were we complaining about the current cards (I don't care how mtgsalvation labels the deck -- changing the classification doesn't change the deck). Furthermore, we were discussing Memory Adept leaving standard in M14 which releases next month, so the discussion is quite relevent. As to otherworldly atlas, it isn't comparable to jace beleren in that it costs more, waits a turn before use, has more hate cards as an artifact, and draws the opponent cards unless notion thief is in play (a large gamble to pull that combination when it doesn't win the game on the spot).
...we were discussing Memory Adept leaving standard in M14 which releases next month...
Do we actually lose MA right away? I haven't been paying much attention lately and WotC/DCI have made a lot of changes in that time ("What do you mean my clone doesn't kill your general? FU DCI!!!") so I may be wrong, but I thought M13 actually rotated out in the fall when the next standalone expansion takes out the old block.
/M
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
Do we actually lose MA right away? I haven't been paying much attention lately and WotC/DCI have made a lot of changes in that time ("What do you mean my clone doesn't kill your general? FU DCI!!!") so I may be wrong, but I thought M13 actually rotated out in the fall when the next standalone expansion takes out the old block.
/M
I wasn't thinking when I typed that. M13 doesn't rotate until next block releases, but the discussion is still valid.
I wasn't thinking when I typed that. M13 doesn't rotate until next block releases, but the discussion is still valid.
Okay cool.
As for Jace...I certainly won't be sad if they reprint Beleren, and it's not as if a format with multiple Jaces in it is unprecedented. However, until we find out for sure there isn't a lot of point in discussing it in too much depth. However, since we are...I will definitely play 3/4 Beleren's if given the opportunity, and he makes Notion Thief a lot better (right now he is a SB card for the control match-up). Otherworldly Atlas isn't even that. The only time that card sees play is if you are trying to play the Windfall combo, which is amusing, but hardly competitive. It's like any ohter inconsistent combo deck...when it works it's a blast, but it only goes off every three games so you lose...a lot.
/M
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
I think Jace memory adept is confirmed, so no beleren this time.
Anyway we will have doomblade, good, never thought i will thank wizards for reprint that card, XD.
Also ratched bomb, i love that card!
Just saw that. Too bad. Mutavault is back though. That is pretty interesting.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
Now hear me out - I think Azorious charm is weak because voice is everywhere, and planeswalkers are bad right now imo. I want to be able to kill the turn 1, or 2 play against aggro everygame... and everything else. Aetherling is good. Deck has natural strengths against midrange and control on paper, and I'll diversify win-cons after boards. Need to figure that out. This is where I'm gonna start testing for my PTQ anyway, thoughts?
Also, I agree Curse of Death's Hold is well positioned. I think it should be a 3-of in the board.
Again.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Winner of the MTGSalvation Standard Championships III & IV.
Typically Control decks run 25-25 lands. So you running 23 is quite ambitious. This is going to hurt quite a bit when you don't get land but keep drawing Revelation's with not enough land to cast it for a good amount. Also you need to bump up think twice to 3. Just having 1 seems... weird.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
M1- Bant hex. Board wipes sac effects. Tamiyo took ultimate both games. With dissipate in hand. 2-0.
M2- Izzet blitz. Very long first game. This deck is scary... Renounce the guilds, drownyard, board wipes. Won with one life 1-0
G2, counters, renounce the guilds, That deck in top deck mode has no chance. 2-0
M3- The rock. Long Grind first game. Drownyard took it. 1-0
G2. Ultimated LotV twice on me + pithing needle. 1-1
G3. Long game.... I dropped my own lotv to kill his. Just couldn't mill fast enough. 1-2
M4- Act 2. Tamiyo and jace + terminus both games 2-0
M5- UWR. Game one drownyard.
Game two. Long grind out game. He drops jace mills me twenty. I dropped Aetherling and rode him to victory.
This deck needs a way to handle planeswalkers. I considered o-ring for one alchemy. If I'd played against reanimater I'd subbed in the entire sideboard and kept my spot removal in hand. I might move away from reanimater aspect.
Typically Control decks run 25-25 lands. So you running 23 is quite ambitious. This is going to hurt quite a bit when you don't get land but keep drawing Revelation's with not enough land to cast it for a good amount. Also you need to bump up think twice to 3. Just having 1 seems... weird.
23 land plus 3 drownyard...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Winner of the MTGSalvation Standard Championships III & IV.
M1- Bant hex. Board wipes sac effects. Tamiyo took ultimate both games. With dissipate in hand. 2-0.
M2- Izzet blitz. Very long first game. This deck is scary... Renounce the guilds, drownyard, board wipes. Won with one life 1-0
G2, counters, renounce the guilds, That deck in top deck mode has no chance. 2-0
M3- The rock. Long Grind first game. Drownyard took it. 1-0
G2. Ultimated LotV twice on me + pithing needle. 1-1
G3. Long game.... I dropped my own lotv to kill his. Just couldn't mill fast enough. 1-2
M4- Act 2. Tamiyo and jace + terminus both games 2-0
M5- UWR. Game one drownyard.
Game two. Long grind out game. He drops jace mills me twenty. I dropped Aetherling and rode him to victory.
This deck needs a way to handle planeswalkers. I considered o-ring for one alchemy. If I'd played against reanimater I'd subbed in the entire sideboard and kept my spot removal in hand. I might move away from reanimater aspect.
Why so many Angel of serenity and griselbrand in Sideboard? I'd recommend detention sphere, pithing needle and renounce the guilds (which you already have) for non-creature removal of planeswalkers. For creature's I'd suggest restoration angel, lingering souls, and vampire nighthawk with aetherling being a late-game answer.
It is a transformational sideboard ... It over powers junk reanimater. I bring in various parts against other decks. Grisselbrand is a sphynx's revelation on a stick.
It is a transformational sideboard ... It over powers junk reanimater. I bring in various parts against other decks. Grisselbrand is a sphynx's revelation on a stick.
What cards do you swap?
More importantly, with junk rites having mana acceleration, self-mill, and slime, how do you keep them from hitting rites long before you do?
More importantly, with junk rites having mana acceleration, self-mill, and slime, how do you keep them from hitting rites long before you do?
Ghost Quarter their cavern.
I counter sin collecter, save dissipate for rites... otherwise ive got alchemy keeping lands dumping rest, drownyard myself as well.
Playing 27 land isn't hurting too bad.
Junk Board
-4 verdict
-2 Terminus
-2 renounce the guilds
-1 Jace
-1 Tamiyo
-1 Drownyard
-1 AZ Charm
-1 D-Flesh
+4 Angel of serenity
+3 LotV
+2 Griselbrand ----(or Aetherling) I prefer lifelink
+4 Unburial rites (for more control... Rise from the grave) I prefer two uses out of rites.
Haven't posted here in awhile, but with the popularity of junkrats aristocrats and reanimator in the current meta I believe Esper is in a very good spot right now.
I've used this particular build to good success with a few 4-0's and always 3-1 or 2-1-1
Ghost Quarter their cavern.
I counter sin collecter, save dissipate for rites... otherwise ive got alchemy keeping lands dumping rest, drownyard myself as well.
Playing 27 land isn't hurting too bad.
Junk Board
-4 verdict
-2 Terminus
-2 renounce the guilds
-1 Jace
-1 Tamiyo
-1 Drownyard
-1 AZ Charm
-1 D-Flesh
+4 Angel of serenity
+3 LotV
+2 Griselbrand ----(or Aetherling) I prefer lifelink
+4 Unburial rites (for more control... Rise from the grave) I prefer two uses out of rites.
I hadn't given that any thought, but it could solve the problem. I do say, I've thought it would be interesting to win by decking an opponent with revelation when they have notion thief in play.
I played one in sideboard for a long time and played 2 when tokens were bad (there's better hate now vs tokens with illness in the ranks). If I see a rise in aristocrats in my meta, I'll probably consider playing illness and/or curse of deaths hold. I might also play one to handle voice of resurgence as it allows me to board wipe and kill the token (assuming there's just one)
Remember though that ETB effects don't cease to exist because you have a curse in play.
A note on the 15 kill spells: you should consider lowering the amount of kill spells and increasing the number of draw and utility spells. Dissipate and syncopate always counter and exile instants and sorceries even if cavern is in play (and ghost quarter is a thing there too).
Evil twin is getting better with the legend rule changes and offers great value against midrange decks that rely heavily on a couple of creatures. As a bonus, it and aetherling share a creature type, so cavern is more usable in the control matches (and if they are unlucky enough to not have removal, it's an infinite payUB: force aetherling to blink instead of attack).
You should also consider sever the bloodline as it exiles and can hit multiple creatures. I've also considered it vs voice and tokens.
On the bright side, tokens will be out as soon as ratchet bomb comes back.
The problem is all these solutions involve us being reactive instead of proactive. Against a lot of decks, having 3 curses out just spells game over on the spot. Im not too worried about just the ETB effects. Sin Collector and Acidic slime are the only ETB effects that are actually good against esper, but the creatures are good because they are creatures on top of having powerful effects. Without the creature portion of the card they are no where close to as good. On the issue of Sever the Bloodline, I actually made an old thread about using it, but in testing it was only OK but not good enough to make the 75.
I also probably worded my original deck design poorly. My deck has 15 removal spells but not necessarily 15 kills spells. Included in the 15 are 5 counterspells (3 dissipate 2 synopate) and 4 azorius charms (probably the best spot removal we have).
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
My problem with having them mainboard is that they don't drop until turn 5 and I must tap out to play them. It's worth mentioning that acidic slime destroys enchantments. I've been testing sever the bloodline since Esper doesn't have pillar of flame. I found it works fairly well as sideboard against voice while flashback means it offers card advantage.
Thats why I had to redesign the deck to fit the Curse. Curse won't work in a draw/go shell. You essentially just run fewer counter spells and more spells that remove things you want to counter. O-Ring and D-Sphere are acceptable replacements, although not quite as good as a counter. Tapping out for 1 isnt always bad assuming you use common sense cast it at an appropriate time. Having to wait till turn 5 isnt terrible either, seeing as hyper aggressive decks don't really beat me that much anyways.
Feel free to draw your own conclusions about the card, but I'll be running it in the main board. I've played a draw/go shell of Esper Control since January and never experienced trouble until Dragons Maze. Sure FNM's still go smoothly (weekly top 4), but that type of success doesnt interest me anymore. At SCG and TCGplayer events (more competitive metas) the field is just too hostile and attacks from too many directions. This is evidenced by tournament results. The one deck that made it into an Open top 8 clearly lucksacked in.
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
I mostly keep my o-rings/d-spheres in sideboard too as abrupt decay gets a lot of play in my meta. I've done some work on a tapout deck, but it's much harder to work with as jund or junk permenants are much better overall.
3 Drownyard
3 Snapcaster
2 Aethering
3 Warped Physique
3 Tragic Slip
3 Far//Away
1 Devour Flesh (Or Tribute to Hunger)
2 Detention Sphere
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Terminus
4 Sphinx's Rev
1 Think Twice
1 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Dissipate
3 Syncopate
Now hear me out - I think Azorious charm is weak because voice is everywhere, and planeswalkers are bad right now imo. I want to be able to kill the turn 1, or 2 play against aggro everygame... and everything else. Aetherling is good. Deck has natural strengths against midrange and control on paper, and I'll diversify win-cons after boards. Need to figure that out. This is where I'm gonna start testing for my PTQ anyway, thoughts?
Also, I agree Curse of Death's Hold is well positioned. I think it should be a 3-of in the board.
My DCI ELO Ratings - May they rest in peace :'(
No, I'm talking about Jace Beleren, a 3-mana planeswalker that can start at a functional 5 counters to keep itself alive and which produces an avalanche of card advantage for no further investment, as the game goes on. I'm talking about a card that was only bad against a handful of decks over the duration of its existence in standard, the biggest one being Faeries (any planeswalker sucks against a deck full of evasive flash threats and manlands) and the second-biggest one being variants of Jund--but even against Jund the card was still powerful enough to be played before JTMS was printed. It probably would have still seen a dominating amount of play, through the BBEs and Blightnings, if the most powerful planeswalker hadn't come out halfway through the tyranny of Jund in Standard.
It's not like they would never print 3-mana (or less) planeswalkers ever again; obviously that's not true as there are 3 in Standard. But Jace Beleren is on a higher power level than Domri Rade, and it grows loyalty twice as effectively as Liliana of the Veil. Frankly, mutual draw is much easier to slide into any deck than mutual discard, and having +2 and -1 abilities is obviously more efficient than +1 and -2 abilities. This isn't to take anything away from Domri or LiliVeil, but the fact that both of those planeswalkers are very good and Beleren is stronger...is a bit ridiculous.
Now, if it came back, it wouldn't ruin the format, but do people actually think they want to have that powerful a draw engine in the format? In blue? Sure, I wish it would come back...but it just doesn't follow the trend of set design for OG Jace to return. Maybe next year, I could see it, but I just don't envision it happening this soon. People still remember how much JTMS warped and ruined Standard (among other formats), and that seriously contributed to why they rotated out Beleren as well--printed a very expensive Jace instead, and then the new 4-mana Jace is now a lot less powerful than either of the first two. (I like Architect a lot, I think it's a well-designed card, and I like what it does when I play with it, but the card is just on a lower power level than Beleren because it can't continuously draw cards each turn. In fact, it takes 2 turns of +1ing it to recharge it once for another draw...how does that compare to Beleren's steady stream of draw?)
They have made 4 different Jaces already. That's more than any other planeswalker, so far. It would make sense to reprint an old one...but are we really wishing for that nice of a thing? I mean, I want it too--but let's be realistic: we're not getting it.
Here's to hoping I'm totally wrong....
Honestly, I think mutual discard is a more powerful effect. If your deck has drawing power, you can draw out of the discard, but it's likely that your opponent can't. Give them some gas and they'll run faster than you can kill off those value creatures that leave presents when they exit the battlefield. If I've established control, I want to keep it. If I haven't, I don't want to make my problem worse. That said, in a format with fast decks, searing spear, dreadbore, restoration angel, and similar, I don't see jace beleren ever getting out of hand.
I think the chances of reprinting beleren are high. It's either him or memory adept again as they won't print TMS having said he was a mistake. I think there's a chance of a new jace, but I think it's more likely that they're going to do a rerun on the original 5 planeswalkers.
As to something more constructive. If you are not on the Sorin, Lord of Innistrad plan, you should look into a combination of Illness in the Ranks and Curse of Death's Hold. It really puts a damper on Aristocrats. Also it makes Voice a bit less scary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
We weren't saying that jace beleren was necessary nor were we complaining about the current cards (I don't care how mtgsalvation labels the deck -- changing the classification doesn't change the deck). Furthermore, we were discussing Memory Adept leaving standard in M14 which releases next month, so the discussion is quite relevent. As to otherworldly atlas, it isn't comparable to jace beleren in that it costs more, waits a turn before use, has more hate cards as an artifact, and draws the opponent cards unless notion thief is in play (a large gamble to pull that combination when it doesn't win the game on the spot).
Do we actually lose MA right away? I haven't been paying much attention lately and WotC/DCI have made a lot of changes in that time ("What do you mean my clone doesn't kill your general? FU DCI!!!") so I may be wrong, but I thought M13 actually rotated out in the fall when the next standalone expansion takes out the old block.
/M
I wasn't thinking when I typed that. M13 doesn't rotate until next block releases, but the discussion is still valid.
Okay cool.
As for Jace...I certainly won't be sad if they reprint Beleren, and it's not as if a format with multiple Jaces in it is unprecedented. However, until we find out for sure there isn't a lot of point in discussing it in too much depth. However, since we are...I will definitely play 3/4 Beleren's if given the opportunity, and he makes Notion Thief a lot better (right now he is a SB card for the control match-up). Otherworldly Atlas isn't even that. The only time that card sees play is if you are trying to play the Windfall combo, which is amusing, but hardly competitive. It's like any ohter inconsistent combo deck...when it works it's a blast, but it only goes off every three games so you lose...a lot.
/M
Just saw that. Too bad. Mutavault is back though. That is pretty interesting.
Again.
My DCI ELO Ratings - May they rest in peace :'(
Typically Control decks run 25-25 lands. So you running 23 is quite ambitious. This is going to hurt quite a bit when you don't get land but keep drawing Revelation's with not enough land to cast it for a good amount. Also you need to bump up think twice to 3. Just having 1 seems... weird.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
3 Snapcaster Mage
PLANESWALKERS (2)
1 Jace, memory adept
1 Tamiyo, the moon sage
SPELLS (29)
1 Crypt incursion
3 Azorius Charm
2 Feeling of dread
3 Essence scatter
2 Far // Away
2 devour flesh
4 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Terminus
2 dissipate
2 Renounce the guilds
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Godless Shrine
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Isolated Chapel
4 Nephalia Drownyard
3 Watery Grave
2 Grisselbrand
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 unburial Rites
2 Aetherling
4 Angel of serenity
M1- Bant hex. Board wipes sac effects. Tamiyo took ultimate both games. With dissipate in hand. 2-0.
M2- Izzet blitz. Very long first game. This deck is scary... Renounce the guilds, drownyard, board wipes. Won with one life 1-0
G2, counters, renounce the guilds, That deck in top deck mode has no chance. 2-0
M3- The rock. Long Grind first game. Drownyard took it. 1-0
G2. Ultimated LotV twice on me + pithing needle. 1-1
G3. Long game.... I dropped my own lotv to kill his. Just couldn't mill fast enough. 1-2
M4- Act 2. Tamiyo and jace + terminus both games 2-0
M5- UWR. Game one drownyard.
Game two. Long grind out game. He drops jace mills me twenty. I dropped Aetherling and rode him to victory.
This deck needs a way to handle planeswalkers. I considered o-ring for one alchemy. If I'd played against reanimater I'd subbed in the entire sideboard and kept my spot removal in hand. I might move away from reanimater aspect.
23 land plus 3 drownyard...
My DCI ELO Ratings - May they rest in peace :'(
Why so many Angel of serenity and griselbrand in Sideboard? I'd recommend detention sphere, pithing needle and renounce the guilds (which you already have) for non-creature removal of planeswalkers. For creature's I'd suggest restoration angel, lingering souls, and vampire nighthawk with aetherling being a late-game answer.
What cards do you swap?
More importantly, with junk rites having mana acceleration, self-mill, and slime, how do you keep them from hitting rites long before you do?
Ghost Quarter their cavern.
I counter sin collecter, save dissipate for rites... otherwise ive got alchemy keeping lands dumping rest, drownyard myself as well.
Playing 27 land isn't hurting too bad.
Junk Board
-4 verdict
-2 Terminus
-2 renounce the guilds
-1 Jace
-1 Tamiyo
-1 Drownyard
-1 AZ Charm
-1 D-Flesh
+4 Angel of serenity
+3 LotV
+2 Griselbrand ----(or Aetherling) I prefer lifelink
+4 Unburial rites (for more control... Rise from the grave) I prefer two uses out of rites.
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
Enchantments (2)
2 Detention Sphere
PLANESWALKERS (5)
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tamiyo, the moon sage
Instants (13)
4 Azorius Charm
2 Dissipate
3 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Think Twice
2 Warped Physique
Sorcery (13)
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Lingering Souls
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Temporal Mastery
4 Terminus
3 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Godless Shrine
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Nephalia Drownyard
3 Watery Grave
2 Vault of the Archangel
1 Island
1 Curse of Death's Hold
4 Rest in Peace
2 Far // Away
2 Negate
2 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Supreme Verdict
Haven't posted here in awhile, but with the popularity of junkrats aristocrats and reanimator in the current meta I believe Esper is in a very good spot right now.
I've used this particular build to good success with a few 4-0's and always 3-1 or 2-1-1
Let me know if you have any questions
Have you considered drogskol Reaver instead of Griselbrand?
Also, Dimir charm could work well in your build.