Going to call dud. Bad colors to be able to protect her. Doesn't protect herself. Will draw cards less often than Domri Rade (even at max Domri was barely over 50% of the time).
2 of at max if she does get played. You want to be able to cast Narset + a spell with rebound in the same turn. Otherwise just not worth it.
That 6 loyalty helps negate not protecting herself. She easily slots into UW control decks. The potential of rebounding a dig through time and such is well worth her inability to dig you out of a hole (though draw helps there too)
She is definitely powerful, that much is clear. I think she will easily see Standard play as she works well in U/Wx control lists, while also looking good in Jeskai variants. I think it might be possible to see if she is Modern playable. While she is no Jace, she seems like one of the best walkers for that deck archetype. Definitely going to make a large impact on the format.
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I'm really liking a R/W Burn-Tokens build splashing blue for her and ascendancy. Narset with raise the alarm, dragon fodder, and hordeling outburst plus the creature base of Brimaz, Monastery Mentor, and Goblin Rabblemaster sounds like it would be going absurdly wide.
ascendancy < radiant purge
I think radiant purge will mostly be played out of sideboards.
Going to call dud. Bad colors to be able to protect her. Doesn't protect herself. Will draw cards less often than Domri Rade (even at max Domri was barely over 50% of the time).
2 of at max if she does get played. You want to be able to cast Narset + a spell with rebound in the same turn. Otherwise just not worth it.
2 is all you really need. Plus I doubt many people will play this directly on Turn 4 with no counterspell back-up. More like a turn 6-7 play with Disdainful Stroke, Negate, and/or Dissolve. She's definitely not going to replace Elspeth or anything but she'll help out the UW Control shell or even a UW Tempo variety might show up with her and Ojutai's Command plus guys like Soulfire Grandmaster, Brimaz, and Seeker of the Way.
If Narset was able to protect herself I think she would be kind of busted, given her high loyalty.
I understand the logic of "If it doesn't protect itself, its unplayable" but man, freaking Ashiok sees play (whose +2 often bricks and just exiles 3 lands, leaving it unable to protect itself).
Narset isn't amazing, but I think she's the type of card that serves a valuable function in the right kind of deck. The -2 serves as a value machine on crack who occasionally draws you a card.
No one's stupid enough to play a creature after you rebound a End Hostilities though, unless there's a haste creature that can deal lethal damage or dash creatures. It's not a good rebound target.
And? That's the whole point. It tacks on quasi-Timewalk to a board wipe. That's fantastic. The only player who thinks that passing it back on turn 6 with all your mana untapped and an empty board with Narset is "not good" is someone who doesn't understand how Magic works.
i think narset would fit best in a jeskai token deck.
rebound stoke, rebound outburst, get free token spells with her +1.
and with tokens, it would make narset a hyrid elspeth, sort of.
elspeth comes down at turn 5 with 3 tokens 90% of the time. narset will come down turn 4 and turn 5 will probably have 3 tokens protecting her or already have tokens from turn 2 or 3
sorry mistyped ( obviously turn 6). but i meant to compare them in light of protecting them. and somewhat justifying narset best fitted in jesai tokens then in UW control decks
I agree she's really good in Jeskai tokens. I don't know about better than UW and UWx.
For the people that don't understand why rebounding a board wipe is good, refer to here. One of the downsides to playing a board wipe as a control deck is that you usually have to tap out for it. That gives your opponent the chance to resolve something while your guard is down. In the Standard format where creatures rule the format, rebounding a board wipe basically time walk's them since they usually can't play much.
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I think being able to improve the odds on her +1 will be key.
Jace works, but who will have 2 4 mana walkers that are only good when the other is in play?
Courser is an obvious next choice. Caleb Durward on Channelfireball is already looking at combining Satyr Wayfinder and Ojutai's Command in a Bant control list.
Omenspeaker gives a 1 shot scry effect, as does Magma Jet and Dissolve.
Another key is having good targets for her -2. As pointed out above, burn and token makers that don't already have rebound seem good (Ojutai's Summons, I don't choose you). Ojutai's Command seems decent, but expensive. If Dromoka's Command is good and inexpensive, that would really help a bant list.
Monastery Mentor seems like a natural combination, as casting her will produce a token that can be used to chump and protect her.
Monastery Mentor seems like a natural combination, as casting her will produce a token that can be used to chump and protect her.
I think mentor could take advantage over her the most. Problem with synergies like these is each card doesn't carry its own. When they aren't together they are sub par. These are also cards you will likely never pack more than 2 of in a deck making the interaction even less often to happen.
Monastery Mentor seems like a natural combination, as casting her will produce a token that can be used to chump and protect her.
I think mentor could take advantage over her the most. Problem with synergies like these is each card doesn't carry its own. When they aren't together they are sub par. These are also cards you will likely never pack more than 2 of in a deck making the interaction even less often to happen.
Absolutely. I am not saying that they are good enough together to justify them. The fact that they both benefit from the same set of other cards seems good, though.
When they are both good with Stance, Stoke, Dragonlord's Commands, Dig, etc, their mutual synergy is just gravy.
I like a 2-of in a U/W/R control build. Rebounding End Hostilities or Anger of the Gods seems brutal, and if you do ever rebound Treasure Cruise that seems nigh unbeatable. The deck also looks like it gets a nice boost from Anticipate, as Divination was fine but not great and I think the instant selection will be much better. At absolute worst, she's a 4-mana gain 7 which is probably good enough against a lot of decks.
Recipe for success: Start with a a strong base of 4 Sieges. Mix in 2 Narsets for value and flavor. Add a dash of Dig Through Time for consistency. Blend thoroughly for 50 minutes and serve over a plating of efficient removal and burn. Congratulations! You've just cooked up a whole heapin' mess of trouble for your opponent to deal with.
Recipe for success: Start with a a strong base of 4 Sieges. Mix in 2 Narsets for value and flavor. Add a dash of Dig Through Time for consistency. Blend thoroughly for 50 minutes and serve over a plating of efficient removal and burn. Congratulations! You've just cooked up a whole heapin' mess of trouble for your opponent to deal with.
I wouldn't be thrilled to play her in a deck with Rabbles and Seekers (though it's possible she's just good enough to still be worthwhile). She's at her best in the most spell-heavy deck possible. I want to run 30 noncreature/nonland cards with her if I can manage.
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I wouldn't be thrilled to play her in a deck with Rabbles and Seekers (though it's possible she's just good enough to still be worthwhile). She's at her best in the most spell-heavy deck possible. I want to run 30 noncreature/nonland cards with her if I can manage.
Don't get caught up in her +1 ability, because it isn't really that great. Outpost Siege draws you a card every turn for the same mana, guaranteed, no strings attached. She also suffers from the Chandra effect in that your opponent can take away your long term plans of card advantage by downfalling her. No, it's the -2 rebound effect that makes her great, and is the reason she should see play. You get a single rebounded ______ and she'll have done her job (getting a "free" card), compared to a Chandra 0 effect netting you a land and then watching her eat a removal spell. Of course, this means that your deck should be full of spells that you're okay with casting on your turn, like... burn spells to clear the path for your cheap beaters. You don't need 30 prowess triggers in the deck to capitalize on her potential. Somewhere around 20 will serve just fine. She'll fit best in Jeskai tempo, where they can protect her with things like Mantis Rider and the opponent can't blindly throw a Hero's Downfall at her for fear of otherthreats.
This is all conjecture, of course, until we see what happens on the pro tour
I wouldn't be thrilled to play her in a deck with Rabbles and Seekers (though it's possible she's just good enough to still be worthwhile). She's at her best in the most spell-heavy deck possible. I want to run 30 noncreature/nonland cards with her if I can manage.
Don't get caught up in her +1 ability, because it isn't really that great. Outpost Siege draws you a card every turn for the same mana, guaranteed, no strings attached. She also suffers from the Chandra effect in that your opponent can take away your long term plans of card advantage by downfalling her. No, it's the -2 rebound effect that makes her great, and is the reason she should see play. You get a single rebounded ______ and she'll have done her job (getting a "free" card), compared to a Chandra 0 effect netting you a land and then watching her eat a removal spell. Of course, this means that your deck should be full of spells that you're okay with casting on your turn, like... burn spells to clear the path for your cheap beaters. You don't need 30 prowess triggers in the deck to capitalize on her potential. Somewhere around 20 will serve just fine. She'll fit best in Jeskai tempo, where they can protect her with things like Mantis Rider and the opponent can't blindly throw a Hero's Downfall at her for fear of otherthreats.
This is all conjecture, of course, until we see what happens on the pro tour
I'm just not convinced that her -2 alone is good enough to play in a more creature-heavy deck. At some point, you need to get value out of her +1 for her to be worthwhile. -2 to copy a Lightning Strike is all well and good, but I'd rather +1 the turn she comes down, then -2 to End Hostilities two turns in a row to really take the pressure off, then take over the game with card advantage off of her.
With 30 spells and a number of scrylands, I have better than 50/50 odds of drawing a free card off of her the turn she hits, making her at least a two-for-one assuming an instant Downfall.
I'll allow that she's probably highly playable in either archetype, I'm just personally seeing her as a fantastic filler for the void that Jace, Architect of Thought left last rotation.
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Really because other than the obvious abuse of dig and cruise this seems abut the perfect use t4 narset t5 rebound end hostilities then you can have it go off again turn 6 and either cast elspeth into an empty field or just put up a wall of counter magic
Oh, she'll absolutely make UW control, Esper control, and/or Jeskai control a viable thing until rotation, no doubt. Rebounding End Hostilities is a fantastic play, barring something like Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker coming down as an answer. I just think that she's at her strongest when surrounded by lots of spells that are okay being cast during main phase (she also plays incredibly well with Outpost Siege, turning 1 free spell into 2), as opposed to UW only getting rebound value out of maybe 3 spells (Anticipate, End Hostilities, and Dig Through Time). The other big downside to her +1 in a control shell is that if you're drawing extra counters, you have to reveal them (Oh hey, now you know to play around this Disdainful Stroke that I just drew!). Also, she'll be much stronger in a control shell once Hero's Downfall rotates. The lack of plentiful targets (Elspeth aside) means that she'll have a fat bullseye on her... jeskai eye
Edit: I was bored and drew up a sample list. Running 10 must-kill threats seems like a good way to support her. The spell density is high enough (26 out of 60) that her +1 should hit fairly often with well timed scrying, and there's so much card digging and advantage that the low threat density shouldn't be an issue.
Oh, she'll absolutely make UW control, Esper control, and/or Jeskai control a viable thing until rotation, no doubt. Rebounding End Hostilities is a fantastic play, barring something like Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker coming down as an answer. I just think that she's at her strongest when surrounded by lots of spells that are okay being cast during main phase (she also plays incredibly well with Outpost Siege, turning 1 free spell into 2), as opposed to UW only getting rebound value out of maybe 3 spells (Anticipate, End Hostilities, and Dig Through Time). The other big downside to her +1 in a control shell is that if you're drawing extra counters, you have to reveal them (Oh hey, now you know to play around this Disdainful Stroke that I just drew!). Also, she'll be much stronger in a control shell once Hero's Downfall rotates. The lack of plentiful targets (Elspeth aside) means that she'll have a fat bullseye on her... jeskai eye
Edit: I was bored and drew up a sample list. Running 10 must-kill threats seems like a good way to support her. The spell density is high enough (26 out of 60) that her +1 should hit fairly often with well timed scrying, and there's so much card digging and advantage that the low threat density shouldn't be an issue.
Well, crap. I guess it still works in that Outpost Siege often pulls a land off the top (40% of the time if you're running 24 lands) during the upkeep, and your actual draw turns out to be a live spell that can be rebounded. Plus, during those unfortunate 'double land' turns with the Siege, you can always +1 to try and draw into something. It's not exactly synergy, but it's also not a nonbo.
I guess the synergy with Snaps and Outpost Siege would have been too much if the zone that the spell came from didn't matter. All of the spells? Yes, Johnny, all of the spells.
I think Courser of Kruphix fits naturally with Narset to improve the hit rate on her +1 and protect her (besides being one of the best cards in standard). If they hang out together, Narset will definitely have Dromoka's CharmCommand in her Jewelry BoxSideboard.
I think Courser of Kruphix fits naturally with Narset to improve the hit rate on her +1 and protect her (besides being one of the best cards in standard). If they hang out together, Narset will definitely have Dromoka's CharmCommand in her Jewelry BoxSideboard.
I definitely wanted to make this work, but I'm just not convinced that Green pulls its weight outside of the Courser. Fixing isn't great in Standard right now, so double-green on turn 3 is tough for a deck that also wants lots of 3-4-5 drops with double non-green color requirements. We could make either white or blue a splash color and focus on bigger green spells, but big green is typically creatures, and at that point, why are we running Narset?
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That 6 loyalty helps negate not protecting herself. She easily slots into UW control decks. The potential of rebounding a dig through time and such is well worth her inability to dig you out of a hole (though draw helps there too)
UBReanimatorBU
Commander/EDH
WUBrago, King EternalUW
GFreyalise, Llanowar's FuryG
I think radiant purge will mostly be played out of sideboards.
2 is all you really need. Plus I doubt many people will play this directly on Turn 4 with no counterspell back-up. More like a turn 6-7 play with Disdainful Stroke, Negate, and/or Dissolve. She's definitely not going to replace Elspeth or anything but she'll help out the UW Control shell or even a UW Tempo variety might show up with her and Ojutai's Command plus guys like Soulfire Grandmaster, Brimaz, and Seeker of the Way.
Modern: RW Burn
I understand the logic of "If it doesn't protect itself, its unplayable" but man, freaking Ashiok sees play (whose +2 often bricks and just exiles 3 lands, leaving it unable to protect itself).
Narset isn't amazing, but I think she's the type of card that serves a valuable function in the right kind of deck. The -2 serves as a value machine on crack who occasionally draws you a card.
And? That's the whole point. It tacks on quasi-Timewalk to a board wipe. That's fantastic. The only player who thinks that passing it back on turn 6 with all your mana untapped and an empty board with Narset is "not good" is someone who doesn't understand how Magic works.
How does Elspeth come down on turn 5 in Jeskai?
Maybe generator servant? Or a mana rock?
I agree she's really good in Jeskai tokens. I don't know about better than UW and UWx.
That's a good point, but I assumed we were playing with real cards.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
UBReanimatorBU
Commander/EDH
WUBrago, King EternalUW
GFreyalise, Llanowar's FuryG
Monastery Mentor seems like a natural combination, as casting her will produce a token that can be used to chump and protect her.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I think mentor could take advantage over her the most. Problem with synergies like these is each card doesn't carry its own. When they aren't together they are sub par. These are also cards you will likely never pack more than 2 of in a deck making the interaction even less often to happen.
When they are both good with Stance, Stoke, Dragonlord's Commands, Dig, etc, their mutual synergy is just gravy.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Really excited for her.
Pro-tip: Serve with delicious appetizers for maximum decadence.
I wouldn't be thrilled to play her in a deck with Rabbles and Seekers (though it's possible she's just good enough to still be worthwhile). She's at her best in the most spell-heavy deck possible. I want to run 30 noncreature/nonland cards with her if I can manage.
Don't get caught up in her +1 ability, because it isn't really that great. Outpost Siege draws you a card every turn for the same mana, guaranteed, no strings attached. She also suffers from the Chandra effect in that your opponent can take away your long term plans of card advantage by downfalling her. No, it's the -2 rebound effect that makes her great, and is the reason she should see play. You get a single rebounded ______ and she'll have done her job (getting a "free" card), compared to a Chandra 0 effect netting you a land and then watching her eat a removal spell. Of course, this means that your deck should be full of spells that you're okay with casting on your turn, like... burn spells to clear the path for your cheap beaters. You don't need 30 prowess triggers in the deck to capitalize on her potential. Somewhere around 20 will serve just fine. She'll fit best in Jeskai tempo, where they can protect her with things like Mantis Rider and the opponent can't blindly throw a Hero's Downfall at her for fear of other threats.
This is all conjecture, of course, until we see what happens on the pro tour
I'm just not convinced that her -2 alone is good enough to play in a more creature-heavy deck. At some point, you need to get value out of her +1 for her to be worthwhile. -2 to copy a Lightning Strike is all well and good, but I'd rather +1 the turn she comes down, then -2 to End Hostilities two turns in a row to really take the pressure off, then take over the game with card advantage off of her.
With 30 spells and a number of scrylands, I have better than 50/50 odds of drawing a free card off of her the turn she hits, making her at least a two-for-one assuming an instant Downfall.
I'll allow that she's probably highly playable in either archetype, I'm just personally seeing her as a fantastic filler for the void that Jace, Architect of Thought left last rotation.
Edit: I was bored and drew up a sample list. Running 10 must-kill threats seems like a good way to support her. The spell density is high enough (26 out of 60) that her +1 should hit fairly often with well timed scrying, and there's so much card digging and advantage that the low threat density shouldn't be an issue.
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Mantis Rider
2 Monastery Mentor
Spells (23)
3 Wild Slash
4 Lightning Strike
3 Valorous Stance
4 Anticipate
1 Jeskai Charm
2 Stoke the Flames
4 Outpost Siege
2 Dig Through Time
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Narset Transcendent
Land (24)
4 Mystic Monastery
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Temple of Epiphany
4 Flooded Strand
3 Shivan Reef
2 Battlefield Forge
2 Island
2 Plains
Thoughts?
Narset Transcendent doesn't work with Outpost Siege. Her -2 requires you to cast from your hand. I wish it didn't. It'd be fun to play her with Snapcaster Mage and have access to like a billion Supreme Verdict.
Well, crap. I guess it still works in that Outpost Siege often pulls a land off the top (40% of the time if you're running 24 lands) during the upkeep, and your actual draw turns out to be a live spell that can be rebounded. Plus, during those unfortunate 'double land' turns with the Siege, you can always +1 to try and draw into something. It's not exactly synergy, but it's also not a nonbo.
I guess the synergy with Snaps and Outpost Siege would have been too much if the zone that the spell came from didn't matter. All of the spells? Yes, Johnny, all of the spells.
CharmCommand in herJewelry BoxSideboard.RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I definitely wanted to make this work, but I'm just not convinced that Green pulls its weight outside of the Courser. Fixing isn't great in Standard right now, so double-green on turn 3 is tough for a deck that also wants lots of 3-4-5 drops with double non-green color requirements. We could make either white or blue a splash color and focus on bigger green spells, but big green is typically creatures, and at that point, why are we running Narset?