I played a similar list at the SCG Kansas City Regionals and went 4-3 before I dropped, 2 of the losses were extremely close and could have gone either way. I ran only 21 lands and tried to keep the curve a bit lower and it worked well.
I found that Ajani Steadfast worked better than Mentor of Heroes as -2 can be a win condition on its own if you just popped a hangarback and the +1 is just great.
I did find my main issue with the deck is that it needs a more consistent version of card draw than Inspiring Call so I went with x2 Life's Legacy and a Evolutionary Leap. Normally you would try to use Life's Legacy on a servant of the scale or hangarback and it refills your entire hand and you're left with thopters or transferred counters. Problem is that its sorcery speed so I'm not sold. Evolutionary leap was nice, cheap activation to replace creatures targeted by removal or if you just wanted to clog the skies with thopters.
The one card that really impressed me was Solidarity of Heroes. This won me games as noone expects it. An 8/8 managorger can turn into a 20/20 at instant speed with a single hardened scales out for 2cmc, it's insane. Or you can just use it to keep a creature alive through Languish or burn. It's very versatile.
I think this deck will jump up a notch once we hit rotation as its main components remain in place, you do lose a couple fringe cards but I bet we'll get some replacements. I do really want to go toward Abzan with it to get Abzan Ascendancy and Abzan Charm. I think with the right mana fixing the abzan version could be great!
I played a similar list at the SCG Kansas City Regionals and went 4-3 before I dropped, 2 of the losses were extremely close and could have gone either way. I ran only 21 lands and tried to keep the curve a bit lower and it worked well.
I found that Ajani Steadfast worked better than Mentor of Heroes as -2 can be a win condition on its own if you just popped a hangarback and the +1 is just great.
I did find my main issue with the deck is that it needs a more consistent version of card draw than Inspiring Call so I went with x2 Life's Legacy and a Evolutionary Leap. Normally you would try to use Life's Legacy on a servant of the scale or hangarback and it refills your entire hand and you're left with thopters or transferred counters. Problem is that its sorcery speed so I'm not sold. Evolutionary leap was nice, cheap activation to replace creatures targeted by removal or if you just wanted to clog the skies with thopters.
The one card that really impressed me was Solidarity of Heroes. This won me games as noone expects it. An 8/8 managorger can turn into a 20/20 at instant speed with a single hardened scales out for 2cmc, it's insane. Or you can just use it to keep a creature alive through Languish or burn. It's very versatile.
I think this deck will jump up a notch once we hit rotation as its main components remain in place, you do lose a couple fringe cards but I bet we'll get some replacements. I do really want to go toward Abzan with it to get Abzan Ascendancy and Abzan Charm. I think with the right mana fixing the abzan version could be great!
Evolutionary Leap and Life's Legacy seem like viable sideboard tech against Abzan. Playing them in the maindeck doesn't seem very wise, however. You don't have time to be getting cute and gaining value in a lot of matchups, particularly when you should be getting sideways as the beatdown.
Solidarity of Heroes is a splashy, win-more type of card. It does absolutely nothing on its own. Did you really need a 20/20, or would an 8/8 that would have grown bigger naturally gotten the job done anyways?
Moving into Abzan is a bad idea. At that point, you're stretching the manabase across 3 colors, which means either A. 10-12 CiPT lands that kill your curve or B. a bunch of painlands which sabotage your aggro matchup. Let's not even address the rhino in the room that says you're playing an inferior version of both Abzan aggro and control.
Card draw is important against the grindy midrange and control decks and I am still trying to figure out what works in the deck. On paper life's legacy looks solid since you sacrifice some board pressure to refill your hand, but the sorcery speed leaves you open to removal that can really suck. Evolutionary Leap seems to be what we want to do from the sideboard against control since a lot of our creatures will be getting hit with removal, and it is hard for them to keep up with the constant flow of creatures we would get from it.
Solidarity of Heroes definitely has the surprise factor going for it but I personally think the deck goes big enough that your 8/8 hydra will finish the game anyway. I prefer to run protection spells in the slot you would run this card.
I think those are all valid points but in regards to Solidarity of Heroes perhaps I'll give a more viable example. You have a 2/2 Hydra with a hardened scales you just played, they languish or stoke the flames or really anything along those lines you can keep that creature out of reach and accelerate the game ending by a turn or two (I will grant that Dromoka's Command, Feat of Resistance, or God's Willing would accomplish the same thing, it's just that solidarity will put you further ahead, and the strive option is very nice as well). While the hydra ends up winning a lot of games on his own he's extremely vulnerable to targeted removal and once he's gone he leaves nothing behind unlike the Servant and Hangarback. So if I could end a game 1 to 2 turns earlier before they're able to recover or topdeck removal I think that has a lot of value. I kind of see it along the lines of many GR devotion decks playing Temur Battle Rage.
Evolutionary Leap and Life's Legacy seem like viable sideboard tech against Abzan. Playing them in the maindeck doesn't seem very wise, however. You don't have time to be getting cute and gaining value in a lot of matchups, particularly when you should be getting sideways as the beatdown.
Evolutionary Leap's place is probably in the sideboard for the matchups you describe. I just really wanted to play with it so I maindecked a single copy. It was nice when I was able to get it out, but most of the time I wanted to use the mana for establishing board presence.
Played a 4 round event today against Abzan (very substandard list), Bant Midrange, Naya aggro (with Chained to the Rocks), and my friend who was piloting Mike Sigrist's UR Scissors deck. Didn't lose a game . In testing ~7/8 games against the UR Scissors, I found game one to be very play draw dependent, though it might possibly be around a 55/45 in our slight favor. Post board seems a lot better with 4 Ordeal of Heliod to swing the race completely. Whirler Rogue is insane. Scissors are insane. Shrapnel Blast is gross. If you're playing that deck, try to slowroll your Dromoka's Command until they enchant something or go for a Blast.
Sideboard plan felt way better with all of the planeswalkers to pull the switcheroo on people. The deck is still an unknown quantity, and I caught my first 2 opponents off-guard and ended up ultimating Elspeth, Sun's Champion in both game two's. They really had no idea what they were playing against. That being said, during playtesting at my LGS, one of the regulars who pretty much only plays Legacy walked up and asked if I was playing the Saito list that he saw online, so this deck is definitely stirring up some quiet attention.
I'll be playtesting against RDW and Abzan again tomorrow, and playing another event on Thursday and will have more notes and thoughts after. Hope to hear some more reports from the rest of you in the meantime!
Congrats on the win PoT! I agree the deck will most likely catch alot of people off guard for a little while but I have a feeling the deck is going to catch on pretty soon.
I will be playing in an event on thursday then another on saturday for game day so I will make sure to post any result or opinions I may have after that.
So Priest of Titania, since you're playtesting way more than I'm able to right now, how are the Citadel Sieges treating you?
I'm on a more G focused aggro build right now, with the only W cards mainboard 4x Dromoka's Command. 21 lands, 8 W sources (should probably go up to 9?).
Running 3 Surrak, 3 Reverent Hunter and 2 Inspiring Call.
Has anyone tested Bow of Nylea either main or board?
Citadel Siege has been GAS so far. Khans mode is just so brutal; being able to turn an Elvish Mystic into a lethal threat is a big deal against removal-heavy decks, and I felt like I wanted another way to go big in games where I didn't draw Hardened Scales and my opponent had a decent ground game. The Siege just absolutely blows open stalled out boards and, importantly, lets you turn an early Hangarback Walker sideways without having to spend turns pumping it up. I feel like this is the biggest improvement that I could take from the Pro Tour list.
I used to play a single Bow of Nylea in my maindeck, and felt like it was serviceable, yet mediocre in every matchup. The thought process behind it was that it would allow me to break through a stalled board with the deathtouch, grow my guys into lethal range with the counters mode, and protect my life total when I was under pressure. Citadel Siege just does all of those things better for one mana more in casting, but without having to pay into future turns for the effect. Bow of Nylea got boarded out a lot, Citadel Siege doesn't
The only loss was VS the best player at our LGS with a UB Control deck.
Observations:
Ashiok wrecks us. It might actually be our biggest weakness.
Servant of the scale ends up being mostly useless unless quite big...again
Having both WW and GG on 2 drops makes the mana way too awkward.
So after 2 weeks of solid play and public showing off, we used our collective minds and tried to figure out how to beat control.
The answer was to switch to Abzan. Inspiring Call is not the solution. The only time it's decent is when it's a win-more situation. By itself it's useless and usually it's just 1 card that gets saved. Not good enough.
So may i present you week 3 : Abzan
Origin week 3. FNM. 2-2
Going into Abzan gives us a better manabase. Green White mana being shaky at best.
Going into Abzan means a slower manabase for fixing, let's take this opportunity to go slightly toward midrange toward Languish-proof territory. Therefore removing Servant of the scale and while there Avatar of the resolute since it's not a tempo play anymore.
Add in Abzan Charm for card draw. Added benefit, Counters mode is bonkers in this list. Add in Den protector for recursion.
Let's not kid around. We're playing Abzan. You know what it means... SIEGE RHINO! The natural trample helps and if we can add counters...well... gg.
This is the week i figured out Hangarback Walker was a thing. And it fills the now-empty 2-drop slot.
The deck is now much much more stable.
So what about FNM? Went 2-2.
Loss #1 was in round 1 VS a very skilled player with a Naya Heroic deck that wrecks. had a lose keep hand. Match 2 on a mull to 5 that couldn't do anything worthwhile.
Loss #2 was actually versus the same control guy. This time it was closer. Much closer. actually I should have won. Game 1 i didn't crank up Hangarback on 1 turn and the damage woulda have killed the guy. Game 2 i chose greed over safe play. Shoulda kept mana for Feat of Resistance instead of going for rhino.
Changes:
-2 Abzan Falconer to the side
-2 Abzan Battlepriest in the SB. Ajani ends up doing his job anyway.
+2 Gods willing in the main. Sometimes 1 mana instead of 2 does the job so much better.
+2 Display of dominance in the SB. How could I even forget?!
One card to consider that I've been running as a 4 of in the mainboard is Mistcutter Hydra. It's not insanely powerful, but the haste gives the deck more speed, the pro blue/counter protection makes control games easier, and it even curves out somewhat nice with a turn 1 scales. I think it's the best hydra effect from Gx we can get.
@Doublea Chances are they will stay 12-16 for quite a while since it is just such a powerful card in general. Though you can never know for sure when a new set is coming in and alot are rotating out.
@Post Mistcutter is actually some really good tech against control decks, not much they can really do about him and he puts a good clock on them. I am gonna try to squeeze it into my sideboard if control gets big at my LGS.
@Siliticx Thanks for the detailed write up man! I can see the appeal of wanting to splash black for Siege Rhino and Abzan Charm since they are just two insanely powerful card. The only problem I have with doing that is that you lose a whole bunch of speed for a more consisted mid-game. I personally like the explosive starts the deck can have, but in the end going for a slower build could be powerful. I am gonna test your list soon to see how it feels.
I am going to pick up a pair of citadel sieges tomorrow for the tournament later that day and give it some proper testing. This is the list I will be running.
@Siliticx Thanks for the detailed write up man! I can see the appeal of wanting to splash black for Siege Rhino and Abzan Charm since they are just two insanely powerful card. The only problem I have with doing that is that you lose a whole bunch of speed for a more consisted mid-game. I personally like the explosive starts the deck can have, but in the end going for a slower build could be powerful. I am gonna test your list soon to see how it feels.
Here's the thing: I feel that if you're not faster than Mono R or UR Robots, being fast isn't such an issue. Also, i've been pondering the idea of letting go of 2 rhinos in favor of Abzan Ascendancy and changing the Gods willing/Feat of resistance ratio to 3/3, speed is indeed a factor.
I have found citadel siege is the real deal and am currently trying to find room for 2 in the mainboard.
I attended 2 events over the past few days so I will briefly go over my result and findings.
FNM 3-2
Match 1: U/R Scissors 2-1
I dont remember much about these games but I do remember us both getting stuck on 2-3 mana for many turns eventually leading to my win on the back of Dromoka's Command. Ordeal of Heliod out of the board is huge in this matchup as well.
Match 2: Mono White 1-2
This was a weird match, game one I curved from Honored Hierarch>Avatar of the Resolute>Managorger Hydra and just overran him. Game two was intense and involved Gods willing making my 9/8 Avatar unblockable and getting him to 1 life. Next turn he pulled a Ugin, The Spirit Dragon out of nowhere and killed two creatures. I built up some more, then Mass Calcify came out of left field and won him the game. Game three I stalled a bit so we both built an equal field and then good ol Mass Calcify wiped my field.
Match 3: Mono White Aggro 2-0
This list had more one drops but unfortunately stalled on 2 mana and never drew out of it. Game two he curved nicely and flipped Kytheon, Hero or Akros on turn 3, followed by a Archangel of Tithes who ate a Valorous Stance and my managorger just got out of control as he sideboarded some enchantments to deal with my aggression. Though Dromoka's Command did work and 2 for 1'ed him all day.
Match 4: Abzan Control 0-2
Not much to say really, the deck is the biggest counter to this deck and he just had at least 3-5 removal spells every game leading to me getting stomped. Though Citadel Siege is quite good in this match up as every creature dropped will be a huge threat.
Match 5: Mono Red 2-1
This guy have 2-3 one drops every game and ended up getting there one game before I could do anything since I kept a slow hand. Ajani and Ordeal of Heliod kept me in the other games as they would gain me 10-15 life each game.
Game Day 4-0
Match 1: Mardu Tokens 2-1
The deck the guy ran was really cool but seemed undertuned and I just trampled over his guys game one. Game 2 he sideboarded lots of burn and killed 5 creatures in a row and his tokens pinged me down. Game 3 Was a close one where his Foul-Tounge Shriek got me close to another loss but again my 10/10 trample lifelink Hydra finished with the help of Ajani.
Match 2: U/R Scissors 2-1
He had a pretty different list than most and had a bunch of bounce spells which is bad for this deck to see. All three games were very close where it came down to whose top decks were better. He was not running Shrapnel Blast which ended up letting me win as he couldent close out those last few points of damage. Unravel the Aether hit his Darksteel Citadel and really set him back which was big, I highly recommend 3 in the sideboard.
Match 3: G/R Devotion 2-0
In all honesty I should have lost game one since he played 2 Dragonlord Atarka's but he did not count he had lethal and I topdecked my singleton Abzan Falconer to deal exact damage to him. Game 2 I curved out better then I ever have with 2 Hardened Scales and just played the falconer to fly over his 3 ground blockers for over 15 damage on turn 4.
Match 4: U/R Scissors 2-1
Big misplayes from both of us at crucial points caused these game to be extremely close all 3 games. Again Ordeal and 3 top decked Dromoka's Command while he was drawing blanks closed out the game.
Overall I won 10 packs the Languish and the sweet playmat. I learned a lot about the deck and understand more of it's strengths and weaknesses. Ill post my list right now before I talk about what I would change.
I removed honored hierarch for the more consistent elvish mystics and preferred it. I did not run any Hangarback Walkers because the order did not come in yet which made me sad but because of that I tried Citadel Siege and actually really like it. Ajani helped a whole bunch against the aggro matchup while den protecter was great in the grindy matches. If you have any specific questions feel free to ask.
Overall I won 10 packs the Languish and the sweet playmat. I learned a lot about the deck and understand more of it's strengths and weaknesses. Ill post my list right now before I talk about what I would change.
Hi everyone, been lurking around on this thread for a while now and I kind of want to get back into standard again for a change of pace after playing edh exclusively for a few years. I have a few questions that I hope you guys can help answer for me.
How viable is this deck come rotation? More than likely I am still going to try to build this deck when rotation happens but I'd still like to know if I am in for a uphill battle or not.
What are peoples thoughts on using Collected Company? Probably as a two of in the deck to help in recovery of board wipes or for bring in the extra amount of power need to finish off the opponent.
I can see how great of a card Hangarback Walker is but is there any cheaper alternative options to it?
I've been a long time lurker on these forums and I just recently made an account to post because of this deck. I came up with the idea of the deck as soon as I saw hangarback walker and managorger hydra spoiled. I'm currently running a sub-optimal deck list as I don't own any dromoka's commands, but after playing this deck at game day, I will be investing more money into getting the commands.
The deck is extremely viable post rotation, seeing as some of the only cards it loses are God's willing, temple of plenty, and a few sideboard cards such as ordeal of heilod, ajani(either mentor or steadfast, they are both super solid in the deck) and elvish mystic(if you play it) the rest stays.
I've gotten asked about collected company by multiple people at my lgs, the reason why it's not really great is because it misses hangarback walker(I know you asked about him, I'll get to him in a second)
Hangarback walker is an all-star in the deck. With harden scales on the field he comes in as a 2/2 for 2 that can get out of hand extremely quickly to the point that if they don't kill him they die in a few turns but if they do kill him they still die in a few turns. He also blocks extremely well in both aggro and rally combo. I do think you can play the deck without him, however I feel the list would shift significantly, without hangarback collected company would be a good route, although if it were me I would probably cut avatar of the resolute at that point and go more white based that has been mentioned a time or two in this thread using anafenza, kin-tree spirit and consul's lieutenant, I haven't done any testing for that varient because I don't have collected companies, but I feel like it's a completely viable option on paper.
@AntiC7
- The Walkers are probably going to come in for the Abzan Falconer and one God's Willing as I only have 2 currently. If testing goes really well with them I will try to get 4 then most likely replace the High Sentinels with them.
-Yeah with mystics I feel like the mana is fine, I do find times where I am stuck on 3-4 lands with a creature and a protection spell and not enough mana for both. But the fact that the curve ends at 4 and most of our sinks are just extra strength and not really needed I think 22 works fine, but I could see testing 23.
-I feel 20-24 creatures is a sweet spot with this deck since we need ways to get counters on our guys and instant speed spells and enchantments that continually but counters on our guys really helps. Against control decks that run 8-12 spot removal I do feel like I could use more creatures.
-Ordeal is almost always going to be 10 life the turn you play it and grows your guys which is key in an aggro race.
-I was messing around with an idea of making a sideboard with 3-4 raptors and 2 Evolutionary Leap to keep up in grindy control games. I have yet to test it but I cant imagine it is bad.
@Umbra
-The deck keeps 90% of it's cards and the only cards that I am really going to miss is Ajani. The deck is going to be a great deck once rotation comes out and possibly a top tier deck with another good card come out that revolves around +1/+1 counters.
-I am going to have to agree with Cousinjemina here and say that collected company in a list like most people are running is just not good or using the card to it's full potential. I say that because with less than 20 targets you will find yourself hitting 1 creature some of the time and that is just not a good feeling. If you decide against running hangarback and cut some non creature spells to fit more 2-3 drops in the deck like Abzan Falconer CoCo would become much more desirable.
-The fact that Hangarback is good against control and aggro is what makes the card work with the deck so well. On top of being ridiculous with 1-2 Harden Scales out. If you simply cant afford it running the Falconer will provide you with the evasion the thopter tokens do as well as having a similar ability (Outlast just being a bad version of Hangarback Walkers ability).
@Cousinjemina and @Skyrian, thanks for your responses to my questions. I will look into getting a playset of Hangarback Walkers. If I only jumped on them a week ago I would have been able to get them a lot cheaper than they are now. I'll probably just keep my eye out and see if I can find any at a cheaper price though depending on what is spoiled in the next set I might buy them now if there aren't any new viable options that I would want to test with. Like you guys said they are just too good.
Yeah Ali Aintrazi mentioned a similar version on magic.tcgplayer.com today as well so this deck is really starting to get some attention.
I think this deck will be great come rotation. We can cross our fingers for some counters love in Zendikar but I'm not too convinced that will happen. Even if it doesn't I think popping in Abzan Ascendancy for Ajani and throwing in some Abzan Charms will be where to go come rotation.
I found that Ajani Steadfast worked better than Mentor of Heroes as -2 can be a win condition on its own if you just popped a hangarback and the +1 is just great.
I did find my main issue with the deck is that it needs a more consistent version of card draw than Inspiring Call so I went with x2 Life's Legacy and a Evolutionary Leap. Normally you would try to use Life's Legacy on a servant of the scale or hangarback and it refills your entire hand and you're left with thopters or transferred counters. Problem is that its sorcery speed so I'm not sold. Evolutionary leap was nice, cheap activation to replace creatures targeted by removal or if you just wanted to clog the skies with thopters.
The one card that really impressed me was Solidarity of Heroes. This won me games as noone expects it. An 8/8 managorger can turn into a 20/20 at instant speed with a single hardened scales out for 2cmc, it's insane. Or you can just use it to keep a creature alive through Languish or burn. It's very versatile.
I think this deck will jump up a notch once we hit rotation as its main components remain in place, you do lose a couple fringe cards but I bet we'll get some replacements. I do really want to go toward Abzan with it to get Abzan Ascendancy and Abzan Charm. I think with the right mana fixing the abzan version could be great!
Evolutionary Leap and Life's Legacy seem like viable sideboard tech against Abzan. Playing them in the maindeck doesn't seem very wise, however. You don't have time to be getting cute and gaining value in a lot of matchups, particularly when you should be getting sideways as the beatdown.
Solidarity of Heroes is a splashy, win-more type of card. It does absolutely nothing on its own. Did you really need a 20/20, or would an 8/8 that would have grown bigger naturally gotten the job done anyways?
Moving into Abzan is a bad idea. At that point, you're stretching the manabase across 3 colors, which means either A. 10-12 CiPT lands that kill your curve or B. a bunch of painlands which sabotage your aggro matchup. Let's not even address the rhino in the room that says you're playing an inferior version of both Abzan aggro and control.
Solidarity of Heroes definitely has the surprise factor going for it but I personally think the deck goes big enough that your 8/8 hydra will finish the game anyway. I prefer to run protection spells in the slot you would run this card.
That's a great point.
Evolutionary Leap's place is probably in the sideboard for the matchups you describe. I just really wanted to play with it so I maindecked a single copy. It was nice when I was able to get it out, but most of the time I wanted to use the mana for establishing board presence.
huh, well then it is definitely better in my book. Man magic has some complicated rules.
Sideboard plan felt way better with all of the planeswalkers to pull the switcheroo on people. The deck is still an unknown quantity, and I caught my first 2 opponents off-guard and ended up ultimating Elspeth, Sun's Champion in both game two's. They really had no idea what they were playing against. That being said, during playtesting at my LGS, one of the regulars who pretty much only plays Legacy walked up and asked if I was playing the Saito list that he saw online, so this deck is definitely stirring up some quiet attention.
I'll be playtesting against RDW and Abzan again tomorrow, and playing another event on Thursday and will have more notes and thoughts after. Hope to hear some more reports from the rest of you in the meantime!
I will be playing in an event on thursday then another on saturday for game day so I will make sure to post any result or opinions I may have after that.
Citadel Siege has been GAS so far. Khans mode is just so brutal; being able to turn an Elvish Mystic into a lethal threat is a big deal against removal-heavy decks, and I felt like I wanted another way to go big in games where I didn't draw Hardened Scales and my opponent had a decent ground game. The Siege just absolutely blows open stalled out boards and, importantly, lets you turn an early Hangarback Walker sideways without having to spend turns pumping it up. I feel like this is the biggest improvement that I could take from the Pro Tour list.
As far as the manabase is concerned, with just Dromoka's Command in the deck, you should probably be up at about 11 or 12 white sources per Frank Karsten: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
I will say that my own manabase has gotten marginally shakier with Citadel Siege in the deck, but it's still fairly consistent, and the power gained in games where you resolve a turn 3 Siege makes up for the ones where you have to wait until turn 7 to cast it.
I used to play a single Bow of Nylea in my maindeck, and felt like it was serviceable, yet mediocre in every matchup. The thought process behind it was that it would allow me to break through a stalled board with the deathtouch, grow my guys into lethal range with the counters mode, and protect my life total when I was under pressure. Citadel Siege just does all of those things better for one mana more in casting, but without having to pay into future turns for the effect. Bow of Nylea got boarded out a lot, Citadel Siege doesn't
I can't believe my eyes. This is actually a brew i've been working on since Managorger Hydra has been spoiled.
I'll try and write up my experience with the deck and hopefully some data can be gathered from it.
Origin week 1. First FNM. 3-0-1.
4x Forest
4x Blossoming Sands
4x Mana Confluence
2x Plains
4x Temple of Plenty
4x Windswept Heath
Planeswalker (2)
2x Ajani Steadfast
Creature (20)
2x Abzan Falconer
4x Avatar of the Resolute
2x Daghatar the Adamant
2x Anafenza, Kin-tree spirit
4x Managorger Hydra
4x Servant of the Scale
3x Inspiring Call
4x Dromoka's Command
4x Feat of Resistance
Enchantment (6)
2x Citadel Siege
4x Hardened Scales
2x Abzan Battle Priest
2x Display of Dominance
2x Back to Nature
2x Celestial Flare
2x Valorous Stance
3x Gods Willing
2x Surge of righteousness
Observations:
Changes :
Origin week 2. FNM. 3-1
Same deck.
4x Forest
4x Blossoming Sands
4x Mana Confluence
2x Plains
4x Temple of Plenty
4x Windswept Heath
Planeswalker (2)
2x Ajani Steadfast
Creature (18)
2x Abzan Falconer
4x Avatar of the Resolute
2x Daghatar the Adamant
4x Managorger Hydra
4x Servant of the Scale
3x Inspiring Call
4x Dromoka's Command
4x Feat of Resistance
2x Valorous Stance
Enchantment (6)
2x Citadel Siege
4x Hardened Scales
2x Abzan Battle Priest
3x Display of Dominance
2x Back to Nature
2x Celestial Flare
1x Erase
3x Gods Willing
2x Surge of righteousness
The only loss was VS the best player at our LGS with a UB Control deck.
Observations:
So after 2 weeks of solid play and public showing off, we used our collective minds and tried to figure out how to beat control.
The answer was to switch to Abzan. Inspiring Call is not the solution. The only time it's decent is when it's a win-more situation. By itself it's useless and usually it's just 1 card that gets saved. Not good enough.
So may i present you week 3 : Abzan
Origin week 3. FNM. 2-2
2x Forest
2x Llanowar Wastes
2x Plains
4x Sandsteppe Citadel
2x Temple of Malady
4x Temple of Plenty
2x Temple of Silence
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Windswept Heath
Creature (20)
2x Abzan Falconer
2x Daghatar the Adamant
4x Den Protector
4x Hangarback Walker
4x Managorger Hydra
4x Siege Rhino
4x Abzan Charm
3x Dromoka's Command
4x Feat of Resistance
Enchantment (4)
4x Hardened Scales
Planeswalker (2)
2x Ajani Steadfast
2x Abzan Falconer
1x Back to Nature
3x Anafenza, the Foremost
4x Gods Willing
2x Hallowed Moonlight
3x Thoughtseize
Here's what changed and why:
So what about FNM? Went 2-2.
Changes:
Aaaaaand that's it folks. Abzan is the way to go.
It's possible since portions of UR Ensoul Artifact are rotating but I wouldn't count on it.
@Post Mistcutter is actually some really good tech against control decks, not much they can really do about him and he puts a good clock on them. I am gonna try to squeeze it into my sideboard if control gets big at my LGS.
@Siliticx Thanks for the detailed write up man! I can see the appeal of wanting to splash black for Siege Rhino and Abzan Charm since they are just two insanely powerful card. The only problem I have with doing that is that you lose a whole bunch of speed for a more consisted mid-game. I personally like the explosive starts the deck can have, but in the end going for a slower build could be powerful. I am gonna test your list soon to see how it feels.
I am going to pick up a pair of citadel sieges tomorrow for the tournament later that day and give it some proper testing. This is the list I will be running.
4 Servant of the Scale
3 Honored Hierarch
4 Avatar of the Resolute
3 Den Protector
4 Managorger Hydra
2 Hangarback Walker
2 High Sentinels of Arashin
Enchantments:6
4 Hardened Scales
2 Citadel Siege
4 Dromoka's Command
2 Valorous Stance
2 Gods Willing
Planeswalkers:2
2 Ajani Steadfast
Lands:22
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple of Plenty
1 Blossoming Sands
10 Forest
3 Plains
3 Ordeal of Heliod
1 Abzan Advantage
1 Display of Dominance
2 Feat of Resistance
2 Abzan Falconer
2 Banishing Light
2 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Unravel the Aether
1) Two Hardened Scales out with 2 creatures with counters on them, then you cast a Avatar of the Resolute.
2) Two Hardened Scales out with 3 creatures with counters on them, then you cast a Avatar of the Resolute.
3) Two Hardened Scales out, then casting a Hangarback Walker for X=1
4) Two Hardened Scales out, then casting a Hangarback Walker for X=2
5) Three Hardened Scales out, then cast a Servant of the Scale
Thanks
Here's the thing: I feel that if you're not faster than Mono R or UR Robots, being fast isn't such an issue. Also, i've been pondering the idea of letting go of 2 rhinos in favor of Abzan Ascendancy and changing the Gods willing/Feat of resistance ratio to 3/3, speed is indeed a factor.
On a side note, I think I'm sold on putting a couple citadel sieges into my main deck. With that here's my setup I'll take to FNM tomorrow.
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Servant of the Scale
3x Avatar of the Resolute
3x Den Protector
4x Hangarback Walker
3x Managorger Hydra
Planeswalkers
2x Ajani Steadfast
Spells
2x Gleam of Authority
4x Hardened Scales
2x Citadel Siege
3x Dromoka's Command
2x Feat of Resistance
2x Life's Legacy
2x Solidarity of Heroes
2x Blossoming Sands
7x Forest
3x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
4x Temple of Plenty
2x Evolutionary Leap
3x Arashin Cleric
4x Ordeal of Heliod
2x Reclamation Sage
1x Daghatar the Adament
1x Managorger Hydra
2x Valorous Stance
I attended 2 events over the past few days so I will briefly go over my result and findings.
FNM 3-2
Match 1: U/R Scissors 2-1
I dont remember much about these games but I do remember us both getting stuck on 2-3 mana for many turns eventually leading to my win on the back of Dromoka's Command. Ordeal of Heliod out of the board is huge in this matchup as well.
Match 2: Mono White 1-2
This was a weird match, game one I curved from Honored Hierarch>Avatar of the Resolute>Managorger Hydra and just overran him. Game two was intense and involved Gods willing making my 9/8 Avatar unblockable and getting him to 1 life. Next turn he pulled a Ugin, The Spirit Dragon out of nowhere and killed two creatures. I built up some more, then Mass Calcify came out of left field and won him the game. Game three I stalled a bit so we both built an equal field and then good ol Mass Calcify wiped my field.
Match 3: Mono White Aggro 2-0
This list had more one drops but unfortunately stalled on 2 mana and never drew out of it. Game two he curved nicely and flipped Kytheon, Hero or Akros on turn 3, followed by a Archangel of Tithes who ate a Valorous Stance and my managorger just got out of control as he sideboarded some enchantments to deal with my aggression. Though Dromoka's Command did work and 2 for 1'ed him all day.
Match 4: Abzan Control 0-2
Not much to say really, the deck is the biggest counter to this deck and he just had at least 3-5 removal spells every game leading to me getting stomped. Though Citadel Siege is quite good in this match up as every creature dropped will be a huge threat.
Match 5: Mono Red 2-1
This guy have 2-3 one drops every game and ended up getting there one game before I could do anything since I kept a slow hand. Ajani and Ordeal of Heliod kept me in the other games as they would gain me 10-15 life each game.
Game Day 4-0
Match 1: Mardu Tokens 2-1
The deck the guy ran was really cool but seemed undertuned and I just trampled over his guys game one. Game 2 he sideboarded lots of burn and killed 5 creatures in a row and his tokens pinged me down. Game 3 Was a close one where his Foul-Tounge Shriek got me close to another loss but again my 10/10 trample lifelink Hydra finished with the help of Ajani.
Match 2: U/R Scissors 2-1
He had a pretty different list than most and had a bunch of bounce spells which is bad for this deck to see. All three games were very close where it came down to whose top decks were better. He was not running Shrapnel Blast which ended up letting me win as he couldent close out those last few points of damage. Unravel the Aether hit his Darksteel Citadel and really set him back which was big, I highly recommend 3 in the sideboard.
Match 3: G/R Devotion 2-0
In all honesty I should have lost game one since he played 2 Dragonlord Atarka's but he did not count he had lethal and I topdecked my singleton Abzan Falconer to deal exact damage to him. Game 2 I curved out better then I ever have with 2 Hardened Scales and just played the falconer to fly over his 3 ground blockers for over 15 damage on turn 4.
Match 4: U/R Scissors 2-1
Big misplayes from both of us at crucial points caused these game to be extremely close all 3 games. Again Ordeal and 3 top decked Dromoka's Command while he was drawing blanks closed out the game.
Overall I won 10 packs the Languish and the sweet playmat. I learned a lot about the deck and understand more of it's strengths and weaknesses. Ill post my list right now before I talk about what I would change.
4 Servant of the Scale
3 Elvish Mystic
4 Avatar of the Resolute
3 Den Protector
4 Managorger Hydra
1 Abzan Falconer
2 High Sentinels of Arashin
Enchantments:6
4 Hardened Scales
2 Citadel Siege
4 Dromoka's Command
2 Valorous Stance
3 Gods Willing
Planeswalkers:2
2 Ajani Steadfast
Lands:22
4 Windswept Heath
3 Temple of Plenty
2 Blossoming Sands
10 Forest
3 Plains
3 Ordeal of Heliod
2 Display of Dominance
2 Feat of Resistance
1 Abzan Falconer
2 Banishing Light
2 Valorous Stance
3 Unravel the Aether
I removed honored hierarch for the more consistent elvish mystics and preferred it. I did not run any Hangarback Walkers because the order did not come in yet which made me sad but because of that I tried Citadel Siege and actually really like it. Ajani helped a whole bunch against the aggro matchup while den protecter was great in the grindy matches. If you have any specific questions feel free to ask.
Congratulations! Way to represent!
The deck is extremely viable post rotation, seeing as some of the only cards it loses are God's willing, temple of plenty, and a few sideboard cards such as ordeal of heilod, ajani(either mentor or steadfast, they are both super solid in the deck) and elvish mystic(if you play it) the rest stays.
I've gotten asked about collected company by multiple people at my lgs, the reason why it's not really great is because it misses hangarback walker(I know you asked about him, I'll get to him in a second)
Hangarback walker is an all-star in the deck. With harden scales on the field he comes in as a 2/2 for 2 that can get out of hand extremely quickly to the point that if they don't kill him they die in a few turns but if they do kill him they still die in a few turns. He also blocks extremely well in both aggro and rally combo. I do think you can play the deck without him, however I feel the list would shift significantly, without hangarback collected company would be a good route, although if it were me I would probably cut avatar of the resolute at that point and go more white based that has been mentioned a time or two in this thread using anafenza, kin-tree spirit and consul's lieutenant, I haven't done any testing for that varient because I don't have collected companies, but I feel like it's a completely viable option on paper.
Thanks guys
@AntiC7
- The Walkers are probably going to come in for the Abzan Falconer and one God's Willing as I only have 2 currently. If testing goes really well with them I will try to get 4 then most likely replace the High Sentinels with them.
-Yeah with mystics I feel like the mana is fine, I do find times where I am stuck on 3-4 lands with a creature and a protection spell and not enough mana for both. But the fact that the curve ends at 4 and most of our sinks are just extra strength and not really needed I think 22 works fine, but I could see testing 23.
-I feel 20-24 creatures is a sweet spot with this deck since we need ways to get counters on our guys and instant speed spells and enchantments that continually but counters on our guys really helps. Against control decks that run 8-12 spot removal I do feel like I could use more creatures.
-Ordeal is almost always going to be 10 life the turn you play it and grows your guys which is key in an aggro race.
-I was messing around with an idea of making a sideboard with 3-4 raptors and 2 Evolutionary Leap to keep up in grindy control games. I have yet to test it but I cant imagine it is bad.
@Umbra
-The deck keeps 90% of it's cards and the only cards that I am really going to miss is Ajani. The deck is going to be a great deck once rotation comes out and possibly a top tier deck with another good card come out that revolves around +1/+1 counters.
-I am going to have to agree with Cousinjemina here and say that collected company in a list like most people are running is just not good or using the card to it's full potential. I say that because with less than 20 targets you will find yourself hitting 1 creature some of the time and that is just not a good feeling. If you decide against running hangarback and cut some non creature spells to fit more 2-3 drops in the deck like Abzan Falconer CoCo would become much more desirable.
-The fact that Hangarback is good against control and aggro is what makes the card work with the deck so well. On top of being ridiculous with 1-2 Harden Scales out. If you simply cant afford it running the Falconer will provide you with the evasion the thopter tokens do as well as having a similar ability (Outlast just being a bad version of Hangarback Walkers ability).
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/daily-deck/standard-hardened-scales-2015-08-11
Looks like the deck is getting a decent amount of mainstream attention. Not gonna be rogue much longer it seems.
I think this deck will be great come rotation. We can cross our fingers for some counters love in Zendikar but I'm not too convinced that will happen. Even if it doesn't I think popping in Abzan Ascendancy for Ajani and throwing in some Abzan Charms will be where to go come rotation.