After rotation, Jeskai Control looks like it is poised to be the best deck. It has the 2 best card-advantage engines in the format (Dragonlord Ojutai and Dig Through Time) while also having access to 8 copies of 1-mana removal spells (Wild Slash and Fiery Impulse). This is my list right now.
The main reason why this deck might not be playable is because Esper Dragons might just be better, but in the right meta this has some advantages over it.
Pros over Esper Dragons
3 mana sweeper
1 mana removal spells against small creatures
2 mana removal spells against large creatures
Able to play more win-cons (especially good because Gideon is sweet)
More of its removal is instant-speed
Fewer ETB tapped lands
Better against Hangarback Walker
Cons
Worse against large creatures
Worse against planeswalkers
Harder for Jeskai to kill Mantis Rider
More vulnerable to Dromoka's Command
Basically, if the meta has a lot of aggro, Jeskai Control seems like it might be the best Control deck. Thoughts?
BFZ really looks like it is pushing for that Battle Cruiser magic that was so popular last time we visited Zendikar, I really am not fond of damage based removal, especially when it is not fit to take out anything bigger than a X/2 outside of Roast and Valorous Stance. Many KTK cards are going up in play ability with many of the removal options leaving in October, and unfortunately those cards really make the red removal look incredibly underwhelming.
To me, the appeal of red is the 3 mana sweeper, but beyond that I feel that the color needs to bring much more to the table if it wants to compete with an Esper Shell. Esper is going to have MUCH smoother mana with 8 fetches, 0 pain lands and 8 fetchable dual lands and a lifelinking man land to boot. To really top it off, the removal options are probably just better because you have Ruinous Path and Utter End, the extra life padding with Foul-Tongue Invocation is much better than red removal as well, even if it cannot target
BFZ really looks like it is pushing for that Battle Cruiser magic that was so popular last time we visited Zendikar, I really am not fond of damage based removal, especially when it is not fit to take out anything bigger than a X/2 outside of Roast and Valorous Stance. Many KTK cards are going up in play ability with many of the removal options leaving in October, and unfortunately those cards really make the red removal look incredibly underwhelming.
To me, the appeal of red is the 3 mana sweeper, but beyond that I feel that the color needs to bring much more to the table if it wants to compete with an Esper Shell. Esper is going to have MUCH smoother mana with 8 fetches, 0 pain lands and 8 fetchable dual lands and a lifelinking man land to boot. To really top it off, the removal options are probably just better because you have Ruinous Path and Utter End, the extra life padding with Foul-Tongue Invocation is much better than red removal as well, even if it cannot target
BFZ might be trying to push for Battlecrusier Magic, but I haven't seen anything that actually indicates that that push will be successful. Sure, the Eldrazi look pretty strong, but we haven't seen any strong ramp yet, so I am not too worried until we see some strong ramp spoilers. The decks that look best right now with the spoilers that we have seen seem to be Abzan Aggro, Jeskai, Ojutai Bant, Esper Dragons, and R/X Aggro, and Jeskai seems worse than Esper against Jeskai (harder to kill Mantis Rider, Valorous Stance and Roast miss a lot of their creatures) and the Control mirror (fewer counterspells, less planeswalker removal) but better against R/X Aggro (3 mana sweeper, 8 1-mana removal spells, cheaper win-cons), Abzan Aggro (stronger removal against their early plays, Gideon is much better in the matchup than Silumgar) and Ojutai Bant (Radiant Flames and cheap removal helps a lot, though the matchup still looks terrible). Besides, if Eldrazi ramp starts becoming a thing, both Esper and Jeskai are screwed because so many Eldrazi have abilities that trigger upon casting them.
Idk why battle cruiser decks need strong ramp, a few efficient early creatures with reasonable bodies is enough to stall to 6 mana and start playing a big game... that is assuming there is no mana dorks, scion tokens or other forms of ramp.
We haven't seen the UR manland yet, if it'll be in the set at all. It might be decent enough to run. Depending on how well it works, it could make the deck a solid force to prepare for.
Idk why battle cruiser decks need strong ramp, a few efficient early creatures with reasonable bodies is enough to stall to 6 mana and start playing a big game... that is assuming there is no mana dorks, scion tokens or other forms of ramp.
I don't see how you expect people to easily be able to play cards like Ulamog, Deolation Twin, or even Void Winnower without strong mana-ramp. If all this deck has to beat from ramp are Oblivion Sower, Deathless Behemoth, and Conduit of Ruin, then it can be tooled to beat them, especially since there are currently no good 7 or 8 mana eldrazi for Conduit. I'd actually rather play against any of those cards than against Greenwarden of Murasa.
We haven't seen the UR manland yet, if it'll be in the set at all. It might be decent enough to run. Depending on how well it works, it could make the deck a solid force to prepare for.
Izzet land HAS to be flying. It's just so red/blue.
After listening to the Top Level Podcast, I'm definitely concerned how this deck will fare against the shards due to the mana base. I think we need 1 more vital piece to make it worth playing over the good mana of shards.
After listening to the Top Level Podcast, I'm definitely concerned how this deck will fare against the shards due to the mana base. I think we need 1 more vital piece to make it worth playing over the good mana of shards.
I didn't listen to the podcast, what do you think is wrong with the mana? I was using the guidelines set by Frank Karsten in this article.
The problem is that the tango lands are absolutely insane in wedge decks. Esper has access to the UW and UB tango lands, which are fetchable by Polluted Delta and Flooded Strand. They can also run more fetches if they wish, and splash for a 4th colour at no risk. Since Jeskai is a wedge, the mana is worse, because we have to run taplands, like Monastery, and that sucks. Esper effectively runs no taplands, and so has the mana advantage for the first couple turns.
The most important thing to gather from that is that Esper can just splash for all the cards which would otherwise make Jeskai better. They can do everything we can, but better, because 4 colour manabases are incredibly good, especially for a splash, because you can just run 1 off colour tango land, and you can now cast all the great red spells.
I don't expect abzan midrange to go away, and GWx aggro is more viable than ever even without fleecemane. Plus, if ramp isn't hypothetically as good, then in my opinion there's no need for roast over plain-old board wipes. I would run 3-4 5cmc boardwipes, tragic arrogance SB and probably 2 of radiant flames.
In fact I'm not a fan of ojutai without (more) counter backup because of Languish. Disdainful stroke seems like an auto 4x in the 75.
One of the best anti-aggro cards imo is Hangarback because as far as we know with the spoiler they don't have many meaning interactions against Hangarback unless fringe stuff like Smash to Smithereens becomes SB, but then you still get blockers.
I like Jeskai, but I think the best reasons to have it are Mantis Rider, Jeskai Charm, Brutal Expulsion (maybe SB?) and radiant flames.
Esper control has the manabase because of the new duals, and stuff like fathom feeder.
Abzan control has Den Protector, abzan charm, rhino. From Beyond looks pretty decent as well.
Both of the above have Languish, Ruinous Path, Shambling Vent, Ob Nixilis who is a real monster, decent SB discard and possibly more.
If I was making control, I would probably go the Jace-Ojutai's Command route.
I think str8 Uw control is better than Uwr control. Much cleaner mana and inevitability via Jace/Ojutai's Command and dragonlord ojutai/Haven of the Spirit Dragon. Not a fan of 2 dmg removal spells with temur, abzan and dragonlords running riot. More consistent mana with less tapped lands has me liking 2 colour control at the moment. Swift reckoning is 1 more mana and does a better job against all creatures than the 2 dmg burn spells but my personal fav is silkwrap - deals with hangarbacks cleanly and prevents opposing jaces from being recurred with Command. All this without adding red and a better mana base whicheck also allows you to play utility lands like Haven without hurting. Black would be the better colour to add if there's no o ring as utter end is imo the premier removal spell especially since it looks like walkers are gonna be a thing.
Also that BW manland is a perfect fit for esper with the lifelink ability will be very handy.
I don't think control will be to viable at least not from the first set. with ruinous path being sorcery and most of your early removal being pretty conditional I just feel like your gonna have a really hard time against the aggro decks to come and really have a rough time with midrange decks that have solid top ends like Gideon, sarkhan, and even wingmate roc.
I don't think control will be to viable at least not from the first set. with ruinous path being sorcery and most of your early removal being pretty conditional I just feel like your gonna have a really hard time against the aggro decks to come and really have a rough time with midrange decks that have solid top ends like Gideon, sarkhan, and even wingmate roc.
Control decks have not gone into a rotation with such stable mana and such a wide array of options available to them, for some time. Early aggressive decks are still pretty prone to losing 1 for 1 trades against cards like Fiery Impulse and Swift Reckoning. Ruinous Path may be a sorcery, but it is still unconditional removal in a format where control decks can skew pretty easily to deal with aggressive decks on a pretty efficient level. There is a good balance of early game interaction and late game interaction that a Control shell can find a good tap out variant to capitalize with.
Last rotation Control lost its pay off cards and its mana base - leaving it in a horrible position. Before that you had the same situation with Thragtusk, Thundermaw Hellkite, and the rest of the various crew leaving.
We have not seen such a large pool of playable control cards survive rotation for quite a few years.
well I just don't think three colors is where you wanna be at. sure you have access to the mana but the mana is slow and favors the midrange deck more in 3-colors more so than control.
I think u/b control will be just fine and it'll be some form of dragons but I think splashing a third color is unnecessary still as you don't have a real incentive other that ojutai in esper and theres no reason u/w really could want red. I think u/b can do just fine without ojutai and u/w can do fine without the red.
also in control trading one for one on your turn against agro especially red agro isn't something you wanna be doing.
well I just don't think three colors is where you wanna be at. sure you have access to the mana but the mana is slow and favors the midrange deck more in 3-colors more so than control.
... Radiant Flames is a ridiculous card against Aggro when you run 3 colors and only a marginally decent card when you run 2 colors. If Jeskai Control can play a decent tap out game, occasional damage from Shivan Reef is fine. The wedge has a lot of cards to combat aggressive strategies and that consequentially lowers the average curve for the deck - in turn mitigating the speed of the mana base.
I think u/b control will be just fine and it'll be some form of dragons but I think splashing a third color is unnecessary still as you don't have a real incentive other that ojutai in esper and theres no reason u/w really could want red. I think u/b can do just fine without ojutai and u/w can do fine without the red.
UB Control decks have historically needed a lot of information about a meta in order to perform well, which is why you almost never see them crop up at the begging of the format and you are much more likely to see something like UW or UWR to crop up beforehand. It has been this way for years, and ironically we saw this happen last time we were visiting Zendikar where UWR and UW were first to the scene and UB followed a considerable amount of time later.
also in control trading one for one on your turn against agro especially red agro isn't something you wanna be doing.
Control decks have been doing this for a long time. You 1 for 1 the early game so that you can 3-1 or 4-1 them with a sweeper... in fact they have done this since the beginning of MTG.
I feel jeskai agro will remain as your premiere jeskai deck. radiant flames is nice but your not always gonna be able to hit all three colors on que on t3 to fire one of for three dage sure casting a pricey pyroclasm is fine to but would rather get full value, other than radiant flames i'd have no desire to ad red to my uw deck. fiery impulse can be meh in uw colors as you wont always have the necessary spells in yard to turn it on and sure shock is relavent but I don't think a control deck wants a shock/bolt in standard when you can just have a more stable mana base and deal with what you have.
you saying ub control needs more information is basically all control decks. stereotypically control is never good at the beginning of rotation cause they don't know what the meta is or what threats to be worried about andprepare for.
well I just don't think three colors is where you wanna be at. sure you have access to the mana but the mana is slow and favors the midrange deck more in 3-colors more so than control.
The mana actually isn't slow. It is just as fast and consistent as any other deck's mana.
I think u/b control will be just fine and it'll be some form of dragons but I think splashing a third color is unnecessary still as you don't have a real incentive other that ojutai in esper and theres no reason u/w really could want red. I think u/b can do just fine without ojutai and u/w can do fine without the red.
Is there any reason to not splash another color? The mana is just as consistent and it gives more options. Also, straight UB has the problem of poor finishers (especially wish Ashiok rotating) and sorcery-speed removal conflicting with counterspells. Jeskai, and to a lesser extent Esper, don't have those problems.
also in control trading one for one on your turn against agro especially red agro isn't something you wanna be doing.
Wild Slash and Fiery Impulse are instants though, so you are trading 1-for-1 on their turn.
I don't think control will be to viable at least not from the first set. with ruinous path being sorcery and most of your early removal being pretty conditional I just feel like your gonna have a really hard time against the aggro decks to come and really have a rough time with midrange decks that have solid top ends like Gideon, sarkhan, and even wingmate roc.
Opposing strong finishers are why this deck is playing its own Gideons and Ojutais and the conditional removal is as its best against Aggro decks. Ruinous Path being a sorcery is part of why this deck isn't playing black.
So far it appears as if only black will have the ability to remove Planeswalkers efficiently without creatures with path and utter. So right now esper seems to be the premier control deck which also can include languish turn 4 which is big vs aggro.
Jeskai tempo/aggro control may be the best iteration of Uwr. Heck, I'd say it's still gonna be one of the hardest decks to beat. Such good, must kill threats that come out early, backed by reach and with no stokes maybe a more controlly tempo shell with more counters to protect threats may be an option.
Prowess creatures in aggro could be an issue for 2 dmg removal which may lead to tapping out mainphase could be awkward for your counters. I do like the 2 new red sweepers though. Good card adv in that. Rolling thunder? Counter burn collateral dmg deck to emerge?
IMO, you can play black in these lists. Mystic Monastery and Nomad Outpost. Plus, if you're trying to support a Cancel-type spell, your fetches are both in Blue (Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta; although maybe you're just trying to play Disdainful Strokes and Clash of Wills so I digress). So, play 2x Utter End and voila! The planeswalker problem is a little less of a problem. Plus, let's not act like Dragonlord Ojutai isn't just really good at killing walkers.
2 Planar Outburst
3 Radiant Flames
4 Roast
4 Clash of Wills
4 Dig Through Time
4 Fiery Impulse
3 Valorous Stance
4 Wild Slash
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Mountain
4 Mystic Monastery
2 Plains
2 Prairie Stream
2 Shivan Reef
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arashin Cleric
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Planar Outburst
1 Radiant Flames
3 Disdainful Stroke
1 Negate
1 Valorous Stance
The main reason why this deck might not be playable is because Esper Dragons might just be better, but in the right meta this has some advantages over it.
Pros over Esper Dragons
3 mana sweeper
1 mana removal spells against small creatures
2 mana removal spells against large creatures
Able to play more win-cons (especially good because Gideon is sweet)
More of its removal is instant-speed
Fewer ETB tapped lands
Better against Hangarback Walker
Cons
Worse against large creatures
Worse against planeswalkers
Harder for Jeskai to kill Mantis Rider
More vulnerable to Dromoka's Command
Basically, if the meta has a lot of aggro, Jeskai Control seems like it might be the best Control deck. Thoughts?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
To me, the appeal of red is the 3 mana sweeper, but beyond that I feel that the color needs to bring much more to the table if it wants to compete with an Esper Shell. Esper is going to have MUCH smoother mana with 8 fetches, 0 pain lands and 8 fetchable dual lands and a lifelinking man land to boot. To really top it off, the removal options are probably just better because you have Ruinous Path and Utter End, the extra life padding with Foul-Tongue Invocation is much better than red removal as well, even if it cannot target
BFZ might be trying to push for Battlecrusier Magic, but I haven't seen anything that actually indicates that that push will be successful. Sure, the Eldrazi look pretty strong, but we haven't seen any strong ramp yet, so I am not too worried until we see some strong ramp spoilers. The decks that look best right now with the spoilers that we have seen seem to be Abzan Aggro, Jeskai, Ojutai Bant, Esper Dragons, and R/X Aggro, and Jeskai seems worse than Esper against Jeskai (harder to kill Mantis Rider, Valorous Stance and Roast miss a lot of their creatures) and the Control mirror (fewer counterspells, less planeswalker removal) but better against R/X Aggro (3 mana sweeper, 8 1-mana removal spells, cheaper win-cons), Abzan Aggro (stronger removal against their early plays, Gideon is much better in the matchup than Silumgar) and Ojutai Bant (Radiant Flames and cheap removal helps a lot, though the matchup still looks terrible). Besides, if Eldrazi ramp starts becoming a thing, both Esper and Jeskai are screwed because so many Eldrazi have abilities that trigger upon casting them.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
I don't see how you expect people to easily be able to play cards like Ulamog, Deolation Twin, or even Void Winnower without strong mana-ramp. If all this deck has to beat from ramp are Oblivion Sower, Deathless Behemoth, and Conduit of Ruin, then it can be tooled to beat them, especially since there are currently no good 7 or 8 mana eldrazi for Conduit. I'd actually rather play against any of those cards than against Greenwarden of Murasa.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Izzet land HAS to be flying. It's just so red/blue.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
I didn't listen to the podcast, what do you think is wrong with the mana? I was using the guidelines set by Frank Karsten in this article.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The most important thing to gather from that is that Esper can just splash for all the cards which would otherwise make Jeskai better. They can do everything we can, but better, because 4 colour manabases are incredibly good, especially for a splash, because you can just run 1 off colour tango land, and you can now cast all the great red spells.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
In fact I'm not a fan of ojutai without (more) counter backup because of Languish. Disdainful stroke seems like an auto 4x in the 75.
One of the best anti-aggro cards imo is Hangarback because as far as we know with the spoiler they don't have many meaning interactions against Hangarback unless fringe stuff like Smash to Smithereens becomes SB, but then you still get blockers.
I like Jeskai, but I think the best reasons to have it are Mantis Rider, Jeskai Charm, Brutal Expulsion (maybe SB?) and radiant flames.
Esper control has the manabase because of the new duals, and stuff like fathom feeder.
Abzan control has Den Protector, abzan charm, rhino. From Beyond looks pretty decent as well.
Both of the above have Languish, Ruinous Path, Shambling Vent, Ob Nixilis who is a real monster, decent SB discard and possibly more.
If I was making control, I would probably go the Jace-Ojutai's Command route.
Also that BW manland is a perfect fit for esper with the lifelink ability will be very handy.
Control decks have not gone into a rotation with such stable mana and such a wide array of options available to them, for some time. Early aggressive decks are still pretty prone to losing 1 for 1 trades against cards like Fiery Impulse and Swift Reckoning. Ruinous Path may be a sorcery, but it is still unconditional removal in a format where control decks can skew pretty easily to deal with aggressive decks on a pretty efficient level. There is a good balance of early game interaction and late game interaction that a Control shell can find a good tap out variant to capitalize with.
Last rotation Control lost its pay off cards and its mana base - leaving it in a horrible position. Before that you had the same situation with Thragtusk, Thundermaw Hellkite, and the rest of the various crew leaving.
We have not seen such a large pool of playable control cards survive rotation for quite a few years.
I think u/b control will be just fine and it'll be some form of dragons but I think splashing a third color is unnecessary still as you don't have a real incentive other that ojutai in esper and theres no reason u/w really could want red. I think u/b can do just fine without ojutai and u/w can do fine without the red.
also in control trading one for one on your turn against agro especially red agro isn't something you wanna be doing.
... Radiant Flames is a ridiculous card against Aggro when you run 3 colors and only a marginally decent card when you run 2 colors. If Jeskai Control can play a decent tap out game, occasional damage from Shivan Reef is fine. The wedge has a lot of cards to combat aggressive strategies and that consequentially lowers the average curve for the deck - in turn mitigating the speed of the mana base.
UB Control decks have historically needed a lot of information about a meta in order to perform well, which is why you almost never see them crop up at the begging of the format and you are much more likely to see something like UW or UWR to crop up beforehand. It has been this way for years, and ironically we saw this happen last time we were visiting Zendikar where UWR and UW were first to the scene and UB followed a considerable amount of time later.
Control decks have been doing this for a long time. You 1 for 1 the early game so that you can 3-1 or 4-1 them with a sweeper... in fact they have done this since the beginning of MTG.
you saying ub control needs more information is basically all control decks. stereotypically control is never good at the beginning of rotation cause they don't know what the meta is or what threats to be worried about andprepare for.
The mana actually isn't slow. It is just as fast and consistent as any other deck's mana.
Is there any reason to not splash another color? The mana is just as consistent and it gives more options. Also, straight UB has the problem of poor finishers (especially wish Ashiok rotating) and sorcery-speed removal conflicting with counterspells. Jeskai, and to a lesser extent Esper, don't have those problems.
Wild Slash and Fiery Impulse are instants though, so you are trading 1-for-1 on their turn.
Opposing strong finishers are why this deck is playing its own Gideons and Ojutais and the conditional removal is as its best against Aggro decks. Ruinous Path being a sorcery is part of why this deck isn't playing black.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Planeswalkers are admittedly a problem, which is why I said that Jeskai will be good in the meta is more aggro-centic instead of midrange-centric.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Jeskai tempo/aggro control may be the best iteration of Uwr. Heck, I'd say it's still gonna be one of the hardest decks to beat. Such good, must kill threats that come out early, backed by reach and with no stokes maybe a more controlly tempo shell with more counters to protect threats may be an option.
Prowess creatures in aggro could be an issue for 2 dmg removal which may lead to tapping out mainphase could be awkward for your counters. I do like the 2 new red sweepers though. Good card adv in that. Rolling thunder? Counter burn collateral dmg deck to emerge?