After listening to Patrick Chapin's podcast on Battle/Base/Tango/Slowlands (http://www.toplevelpodcast.com/battle-lands/), I think that 5-Color Control is going to be the best deck next Standard. It has near perfect mana and access to all of the best cards. Here is my rough draft.
This deck should be able to crush any Midrange deck, hold its own against Control, and reasonably survive against Aggro. It gets to play all of the most powerful answers and card-advantage in the format and it gets even better after sideboarding. Thoughts?
We're never going to have mana troubles, and we can play literally any card. I definitely reckon this will be a thing. Obviously, as more cards are spoiled, we have more opportunities to do broken stuff, so I can only see this deck getting better.
Blue cards and no Jace (not to mention Ojutai's Command or Kolaghan's Command to go with it), deck is bad.
Even if this deck had 4 Jaces, it still wouldn't have enough creatures to run either of those Commands. As for Jace, he turns on opposing removal and helps in matchups where we don't actually need help. He is an amazing card. He is great in this deck. I certainly could be wrong about playing him. I just think playing a card to help in grindy matchups in a deck that excels in grindy matchups already is a bit pointless.
You have made like 5 of these threads where you post some random 2 minute pile that you haven't even taken a second look at and proclaim it as the best deck of the post-rotation standard. What is the point?
I made 2 threads and I never said that the deck in my first thread would be the best deck (I said that it looked like it could be a good deck in an aggro-heavy meta). Am I at least allowed 1 shot at finding the best deck?
I think we should demand more of Bring to Light. It's essentially the reason why we're running this deck, right? Let's up the 1-of count and give BtL some more versatility. Today's newly-spoiled Crumble to Dust seems like a fine 1-of. What other 4-cost and 5-cost instants, creatures, and sorceries can we fit in here?
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4 jace is certainly enough for ojutai Command. Then you also have the best Sideboard roadblock in Arashin Cleric which is another target for Ojutai's Command. But there is an early game removal in Silkwrap that eats Jace/Command. And utter end doesn't care if he's a kid or adult link. Ganons gonna banish him permanently
Bring to Light doesn't even seem that good in this deck. The setup cost is pretty steep with really not much payoff. But I like the idea of a 4-5 color control build because of the fetches' interactions with the new lands. Personally I would go four just to make the mana slightly smoother, but at that point maybe you might as well go all-in.
The most powerful cards you're incentivized to splash for in my opinion are Siege Rhino, Tasigur, Den Protector, Radiant Flames, Dragonlord Ojutai and Atarka. Dig Through Time, End Hostilities/Planar Outburst, Languish/Crux, Gideon, and Ob Nixilis are also all very powerful but require more commitment to their colors. Unfortunately we don't have Confluence or Caryatid any more, so the best fixer in the format that I can think of is Rattleclaw Mystic which is a bit awkward and dies to sweepers. The fetches are probably good enough fixers if you construct the mana base properly. EDIT: Duh, the trilands also exist.
Jace is good if you're spell heavy, but I think a build with a bunch of value creatures is a good option too. I might brainstorm based on all this info and post a list later - just theory crafting for now.
I do think we have the mana capability to play 5-color control, I'm just not sure about the spell configuration here. I think we need Exert Influence, seems extremely powerful here. Bring to light seems really powerful with ojutai/rhino/exert, it should probably be a 3-4 of. Having the capability to run 1 of all of these very poweful tools, but still have '4' with the bring to light seems very good, and it also means you can more easily run 1-ofs in side that are going to have a greater impact. Also, I don't know about Fiery impulse, maybe something like Gideon's Reproach instead, as I think 4 Radiant Flames and 4 Impulse is a bit much for aggro hate and reproach works against midrange as well, but I do like Radiant Flames, it's like the perfect card for this deck. Ob Nixilis Reignited seems very good in this deck, also Hangarback Walker, possibly Kiora, Master of Depths. So far I like the ideas.
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"Play to have fun, it's a game."
"I do have fun. Winning is fun."
I think we should demand more of Bring to Light. It's essentially the reason why we're running this deck, right? Let's up the 1-of count and give BtL some more versatility. Today's newly-spoiled Crumble to Dust seems like a fine 1-of. What other 4-cost and 5-cost instants, creatures, and sorceries can we fit in here?
Crumble to Dust sounds like it could be a great sideboard card. Bring to Light isn't the reason we are running this deck (the reason to run this deck is access to all of the best removal and finishers in the format), but here are the good spells that you can get with it (ignoring the ones that don't work in Control like Wingmate Roc, are just worse than getting Planar Outburst like Languish, or are just big beaters that are usually worse than Dragonlord Ojutai).
Archangel of Tithes (good against tokens)
Brutal Expulsion (2-for-1)
Burn Away (graveyard-hate)
Clever Impersonator (whatever your opponent's best card is)
Conclave Naturalists (artifact/enchantment destruction on a body)
Dragonlord Ojutai (resilient threat)
Gilt-Leaf Winnower (removal on a body)
Ojutai's Command (lifegain and card advantage)
Planar Outburst (wrath)
Siege Rhino (lifegain)
However, with Archangel being almost impossible to naturally cast in this deck, Winnower and Naturalists being only minor improvements over just getting a kill spell (no natural protection means that they'll get removed easily), Brutal Expulsion being more tempo-based than this deck usually wants, and Clever Impersonator being dependent on you not killing your opponent's threats, there really aren't a lot of options. Still, Bring to Light is definitely good enough, since it is a wrath that can become a finisher when you need it.
I do think we have the mana capability to play 5-color control, I'm just not sure about the spell configuration here. I think we need Exert Influence, seems extremely powerful here.
Exert Influence unfortunately can't get tutored up with Bring to Light as if you cast it without paying its manacost converge will be 0.
Bring to light seems really powerful with ojutai/rhino/exert, it should probably be a 3-4 of.
Bring to Light is great. I am not really sure that I need Rhino though, since I can only imagine myself tutoring for Rhino instead of for Ojutai if I am at a low life total against an aggro deck. What we could really use is a strong lifelinker.
Having the capability to run 1 of all of these very powerful tools, but still have '4' with the bring to light seems very good, and it also means you can more easily run 1-ofs in side that are going to have a greater impact.
I would do that, but there actually aren't that many powerful sideboard cards in Standard that completely destroy decks.
Also, I don't know about Fiery impulse, maybe something like Gideon's Reproach instead, as I think 4 Radiant Flames and 4 Impulse is a bit much for aggro hate and reproach works against midrange as well,
Impulse is much better than Reproach. Reproach forces you to tap out during their attack step during the early turns, which stops you from leaving up Clash of Wills. Reproach also doesn't hit utility creatures like Jace, can't stop a Hangarback Walker from slowly growing, allows turn 3 morphed Den Protectors to be untapped with, and allows Abzan Aggro players to untap with regeneration mana for Rakshasa Deathdealer. It also costs 2 mana instead of 1. There are some cards like Anafenza the Foremost and Mantis Rider that Reproach is better against, but for the most part I think it is worse.
I was running Ob Nixilis until I reread Bring to Light and saw that I couldn't get planeswalkers. In a deck with Bring to Light, Dragonlord Ojutai seems better. I don't think that Hangarback brings much to this deck, but if you think it could work I'd love to be proven wrong. Kiora doesn't work though as we don't have enough creatures.
Bring to Light doesn't even seem that good in this deck. The setup cost is pretty steep with really not much payoff. But I like the idea of a 4-5 color control build because of the fetches' interactions with the new lands. Personally I would go four just to make the mana slightly smoother, but at that point maybe you might as well go all-in.
Bring to Light actually has 0 setup cost, as this deck can easily get every color of mana by turn 5 and get it untapped most of the time. It might not look like it is great in this deck, but the utility of being able to get a Planar Outburst, a Dragonlord Ojutai, or an Utter End is huge.
The most powerful cards you're incentivized to splash for in my opinion are Siege Rhino, Tasigur, Den Protector, Radiant Flames, Dragonlord Ojutai and Atarka. Dig Through Time, End Hostilities/Planar Outburst, Languish/Crux, Gideon, and Ob Nixilis are also all very powerful but require more commitment to their colors. Unfortunately we don't have Confluence or Caryatid any more, so the best fixer in the format that I can think of is Rattleclaw Mystic which is a bit awkward and dies to sweepers. The fetches are probably good enough fixers if you construct the mana base properly. EDIT: Duh, the trilands also exist.
Jace is good if you're spell heavy, but I think a build with a bunch of value creatures is a good option too. I might brainstorm based on all this info and post a list later - just theory crafting for now.
Just look at the link in the original post. The manabase is actually able to cast every spell on the earliest turn that you want to over 80% of the time. As for a value creature build, I'd love to see that too. I personally just prefer playing Control decks like Esper Dragons, but a 5-Color Control deck that works like Abzan Control does now is definitely viable.
This is actually probably going to be a very powerful deck. I like a lot of the things mentioned here. Also, for Exert Influence, we aren't tutoring for it, simply a 5-mana permanent mind control is awesome. Also Abzan Carm is uncasrable until turn 4/5 if we play clash or fiery impulse on t1/2, so I think we need another removal spell there. I think my list would be something like this:
This is actually probably going to be a very powerful deck. I like a lot of the things mentioned here. Also, for Exert Influence, we aren't tutoring for it, simply a 5-mana permanent mind control is awesome. Also Abzan Carm is uncasrable until turn 4/5 if we play clash or fiery impulse on t1/2, so I think we need another removal spell there. I think my list would be something like this:
Most of the time with Abzan Charm, I just search for a tango on turn 1 tapped and then search up basics on turns 2 and 3. It is a little slower but it still works.
I'll try fitting Exert Influence in, it is just that the deck has a high curve already and it seems worse than Gideon and Ojutai as finishers.
As for your deck, I think you went way too deep for Bring to Light. Most of the time we really don't need Rhino, Clever Impersonator depends on us not just killing whatever threat they play and it and letting it survive for 2 turns, and Gilt-Leaf Winnower is usually just a kill spell that allows them to use a previously dead removal spell. In addition, I think I'm only playing 27 lands and your version only has 2 Radiant Flames, which basically means that it auto-loses to Aggro. Dragonmaster Outcast seems like it could be sweet in the sideboard though.
the issue you arent accounting for is that if you start woth the wrong fetches and basics.in hand you get totally ran over. 5 c isnt worth it. stick to a good 3 color deck. esper grixis or jeskai will be superior
the issue you arent accounting for is that if you start woth the wrong fetches and basics.in hand you get totally ran over. 5 c isnt worth it. stick to a good 3 color deck. esper grixis or jeskai will be superior
Actually, that still doesn't happen. I've been trying out the mana, and it rarely ends up like that. If necessary, you just fetch up a tango on turn 1 to cast your 2 or 3-drop. Occasionally you will have to mulligan due to not having the right lands, but the scry rule helps a lot with easing that and it is a lot more rare than you'd think.
My try at 5c. Land base is gonna be like brain surgery >_< Really want to be able to fit some hexproof manland in just to piss off draw goey control decks
My take on 5-c control. Play tests consistently, only thing it seems to hiccup on is late game fetches being dead, dropped mana base to 26 by cutting a fetch to try and remedy that, will see how it helps. But over all only real concern is aggro game 1, game 2 and 3 just board in life gain door stops, and watch em struggle. Sideboard is up for argument on here, nothing cement as the meta is still young. But I really like the main deck.
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4 Bring to Light
1 Planar Outburst
4 Radiant Flames
4 Abzan Charm
4 Clash of Wills
4 Dig Through Time
4 Fiery Impulse
1 Utter End
2 Valorous Stance
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Canopy Vista
1 Cinder Falls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Prairie Stream
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Planar Outburst
4 Seismic Rupture
4 Crackling Doom
3 Negate
3 Utter End
This deck should be able to crush any Midrange deck, hold its own against Control, and reasonably survive against Aggro. It gets to play all of the most powerful answers and card-advantage in the format and it gets even better after sideboarding. Thoughts?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
UWR Control
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Even if this deck had 4 Jaces, it still wouldn't have enough creatures to run either of those Commands. As for Jace, he turns on opposing removal and helps in matchups where we don't actually need help. He is an amazing card. He is great in this deck. I certainly could be wrong about playing him. I just think playing a card to help in grindy matchups in a deck that excels in grindy matchups already is a bit pointless.
I made 2 threads and I never said that the deck in my first thread would be the best deck (I said that it looked like it could be a good deck in an aggro-heavy meta). Am I at least allowed 1 shot at finding the best deck?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The most powerful cards you're incentivized to splash for in my opinion are Siege Rhino, Tasigur, Den Protector, Radiant Flames, Dragonlord Ojutai and Atarka. Dig Through Time, End Hostilities/Planar Outburst, Languish/Crux, Gideon, and Ob Nixilis are also all very powerful but require more commitment to their colors. Unfortunately we don't have Confluence or Caryatid any more, so the best fixer in the format that I can think of is Rattleclaw Mystic which is a bit awkward and dies to sweepers. The fetches are probably good enough fixers if you construct the mana base properly. EDIT: Duh, the trilands also exist.
Jace is good if you're spell heavy, but I think a build with a bunch of value creatures is a good option too. I might brainstorm based on all this info and post a list later - just theory crafting for now.
"I do have fun. Winning is fun."
Modern URB Grixis Shadow
EDH URG Animar
Crumble to Dust sounds like it could be a great sideboard card. Bring to Light isn't the reason we are running this deck (the reason to run this deck is access to all of the best removal and finishers in the format), but here are the good spells that you can get with it (ignoring the ones that don't work in Control like Wingmate Roc, are just worse than getting Planar Outburst like Languish, or are just big beaters that are usually worse than Dragonlord Ojutai).
Archangel of Tithes (good against tokens)
Brutal Expulsion (2-for-1)
Burn Away (graveyard-hate)
Clever Impersonator (whatever your opponent's best card is)
Conclave Naturalists (artifact/enchantment destruction on a body)
Dragonlord Ojutai (resilient threat)
Gilt-Leaf Winnower (removal on a body)
Ojutai's Command (lifegain and card advantage)
Planar Outburst (wrath)
Siege Rhino (lifegain)
However, with Archangel being almost impossible to naturally cast in this deck, Winnower and Naturalists being only minor improvements over just getting a kill spell (no natural protection means that they'll get removed easily), Brutal Expulsion being more tempo-based than this deck usually wants, and Clever Impersonator being dependent on you not killing your opponent's threats, there really aren't a lot of options. Still, Bring to Light is definitely good enough, since it is a wrath that can become a finisher when you need it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Exert Influence unfortunately can't get tutored up with Bring to Light as if you cast it without paying its manacost converge will be 0.
Bring to Light is great. I am not really sure that I need Rhino though, since I can only imagine myself tutoring for Rhino instead of for Ojutai if I am at a low life total against an aggro deck. What we could really use is a strong lifelinker.
I would do that, but there actually aren't that many powerful sideboard cards in Standard that completely destroy decks.
Impulse is much better than Reproach. Reproach forces you to tap out during their attack step during the early turns, which stops you from leaving up Clash of Wills. Reproach also doesn't hit utility creatures like Jace, can't stop a Hangarback Walker from slowly growing, allows turn 3 morphed Den Protectors to be untapped with, and allows Abzan Aggro players to untap with regeneration mana for Rakshasa Deathdealer. It also costs 2 mana instead of 1. There are some cards like Anafenza the Foremost and Mantis Rider that Reproach is better against, but for the most part I think it is worse.
I was running Ob Nixilis until I reread Bring to Light and saw that I couldn't get planeswalkers. In a deck with Bring to Light, Dragonlord Ojutai seems better. I don't think that Hangarback brings much to this deck, but if you think it could work I'd love to be proven wrong. Kiora doesn't work though as we don't have enough creatures.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Bring to Light actually has 0 setup cost, as this deck can easily get every color of mana by turn 5 and get it untapped most of the time. It might not look like it is great in this deck, but the utility of being able to get a Planar Outburst, a Dragonlord Ojutai, or an Utter End is huge.
Just look at the link in the original post. The manabase is actually able to cast every spell on the earliest turn that you want to over 80% of the time. As for a value creature build, I'd love to see that too. I personally just prefer playing Control decks like Esper Dragons, but a 5-Color Control deck that works like Abzan Control does now is definitely viable.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
1 Dragonlord Ojutai
1 Clever Impersonater
1 Gilt-Leaf Winnower
1 Siege Rhino
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
4 Clash of Wills
3 Valorous Stance
1 Crackling Doom
1 Utter End
1 End Hostilities
2 Exert Influence
4 Fiery Impulse
2 Radiant Flames
"I do have fun. Winning is fun."
Modern URB Grixis Shadow
EDH URG Animar
Most of the time with Abzan Charm, I just search for a tango on turn 1 tapped and then search up basics on turns 2 and 3. It is a little slower but it still works.
I'll try fitting Exert Influence in, it is just that the deck has a high curve already and it seems worse than Gideon and Ojutai as finishers.
As for your deck, I think you went way too deep for Bring to Light. Most of the time we really don't need Rhino, Clever Impersonator depends on us not just killing whatever threat they play and it and letting it survive for 2 turns, and Gilt-Leaf Winnower is usually just a kill spell that allows them to use a previously dead removal spell. In addition, I think I'm only playing 27 lands and your version only has 2 Radiant Flames, which basically means that it auto-loses to Aggro. Dragonmaster Outcast seems like it could be sweet in the sideboard though.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Actually, that still doesn't happen. I've been trying out the mana, and it rarely ends up like that. If necessary, you just fetch up a tango on turn 1 to cast your 2 or 3-drop. Occasionally you will have to mulligan due to not having the right lands, but the scry rule helps a lot with easing that and it is a lot more rare than you'd think.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Siege Rhino
Spells
4 Dig Through Time
4 Clash of Wills
4 Radiant Flames
3 Crackling Doom
3 Utter End
1 From Beyond
2 Ojutai's Command
1 Negate
2 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
28 Lands
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Canopy Vista
1x Cinder Glade
2x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
2x Prairie Stream
1x Smoldering Marsh
1x Sunken Hollow
1x Swamp
4x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
4x Abzan Charm
4x Clash of Wills
2x Crackling Doom
4x Dig Through Time
1x Utter End
2x Valorous Stance
SORCERY
4x Bring to Light
1x Exert Influence
1x Planar Outburst
4x Radiant Flames
PLANESWALKERS
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
CRITTERS
2x Dragonlord Ojutai
3x Siege Rhino
2x Arashin Cleric
2x Crackling Doom
2x Jaddi Offshoot
3x Negate
1x Planar Outburst
3x Seismic Rupture
2x Utter End
My take on 5-c control. Play tests consistently, only thing it seems to hiccup on is late game fetches being dead, dropped mana base to 26 by cutting a fetch to try and remedy that, will see how it helps. But over all only real concern is aggro game 1, game 2 and 3 just board in life gain door stops, and watch em struggle. Sideboard is up for argument on here, nothing cement as the meta is still young. But I really like the main deck.