Thought this card needed a discussion thread obviously it's a powerful source of card advantage, by the question is, are the cards worth it? Will being able to infinitely recur a 2/2 menace for BBB a go be worth it? If it is, is there a home for it in our theoretical future standard? Will the second ability be the most powerful part or will it be too hard to make work?
Works really well with itself. Like, you can play the first copy on curve, swing in for beats. Even if they remove it a second copy in a later turn can recure the first for two generic mana. After that they cycle as long as you keep two open.
Others have mentioned the obvious synergy with Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. I also like that for two black it pushes you towards mono black so maybe Despoiler of Souls can find a home in this aggressive, recursion heavy deck. We lose Murderous Cut in rotation so hopefully we can get some more removal in SOI.
I'm not sold on this card just yet. On paper he looks good, but the meta is very heavy with exiling, which waters down his abilities. I imagine SOI is going to have more exile removal as well coming that we haven't seen too.
When he sticks, he's a 2/2 that gets blocked by just about anything and dies, making him swing for a miss every other turn due to summoning sickness. I know he has menace which is alright, but in such a creature heavy format, that doesn't help us much. He would be WAY better if he had deathtouch instead.
All this guy ends up doing is being fodder for Kalitas really.
That's the spoiler thread, this is for discussing the card in a specific Standard context.
To further the reasonable discussion, I like the tech with Kalitas - but I don't feel that an interaction with one good card is really enough to make a mono-black deck viable. Being able to run Grasp of Darkness and any good B removal in SOI should make the plan work a lot better, however
also interacts with Fleshbag Marauder (return Marauder to hand), Risen Executioner (RD is a zombie), Drana (RD has evasion to get through a single defending creature), Sidisi, Undead Vizier (as exploit), Nantuko Husk (sacrificial creature). i am sure i missed more, and there will be Zombie synergy in SOI for certain.
I really like the idea of Risen Executioner getting some potential partners in crime. This guy is a sweet way to help keep dudes out of your yard to get him back into play on for his normal cost.
I really like the idea of Risen Executioner getting some potential partners in crime. This guy is a sweet way to help keep dudes out of your yard to get him back into play on for his normal cost.
Holy *****, what a deep plant by Wizards. I forgot all about that guy. That's awesome!
Or you could, you know.. use Den Protector and Deathmist Raptor since they remain legal post rotation. Relentless Dead seems like a fun card but it seems kinda inferior to the aforementioned two, despite being in a different color.
What about the second ability used to recur bombs a la Whip of Erebos? We haven't seen all the spoilers yet, so we'd really have to analyse how many big zombie creatures we'll be getting. Geralf's Masterpiece looks "eh" until we see the full Madness package, I'll concede that, but we could still get something like Grave Titan.
*EDIT: Just realized he's a Giant, but still serves to illustrate my example
I find myself wanting to use this in a control deck. Being able to recur fleshbag marauder, Sidisi, and Geralf's Masterpiece seems good on paper, but I have concerns the startup is too slow
You can chain Relentless Dead off himself. You don't even need any other zombie in the deck for it to be good. No matter what it can recur itself for B when it dies. Add in all the good zombies we have in standard and it is just gravy on top of a good card.
You can chain Relentless Dead off himself. You don't even need any other zombie in the deck for it to be good. No matter what it can recur itself for B when it dies. Add in all the good zombies we have in standard and it is just gravy on top of a good card.
True, but it still sets you back on mana and board presence. If it came back to the battlefield like Bloodsoaked Champion, or if its ability triggered not only on death, it could be reliable enough. However, blocking with it and recurring it requires you to have 1 mana open, and sets you back 3 mana next turn if you want to trigger it endlessly. You're not getting creatures removed by blocking with it either, since it's basically a token, so while you're 3 mana behind every turn just to prevent damage (or doing nothing, if they have trample or evasion), your opponents are developing board and stalling you.
So I tend to disagree. We really need to have good Zombie bombs to make this card playable.
Right, but you mentioned it could chain off itself, so maybe I'm missing a rulings nuance here... you're talking about casting 2 generic as it dies to resuscitate it?
EDIT: Nvm, text says "another" zombie creature. I guess I misunderstood you then, since I thought you were talking about a single copy chaining off itself rather than a full playset of the thing.
I think the discussion is great, but is heavily focused on the actionable part of RD and not what it means to your opponent.
For example, let's take a look at what swinging with RD means to an opponent. First, they have to put two or more in front of it, and then if they do put more than two power in front of it, they have to worry about it recurring creatures, or itself from the GY. Menace on a 2/2 doesn't seem that threatening, but it is 10% of your starting life total and if you simply let it go over the course of the game, it's not favourable.
On the flipside when your opponent is attacking, they have take into account your open mana not only for possible instants but also for what a blocking RD could mean for the board next turn. Being able to recur out of the graveyard means that you aren't limited to cards in hand.
This is far from a simple interaction like Goblin Dark Dwellers. The payload of the card is in it's potential. You can play mono-black and still be able to cast Geralf's Masterpiece and Baloth Null out of your GY into the battlefied and get your RD back in your hand. Can you imagine? It's surreal.
The solutions to this card are on the table are lockdown, exile and if there's a sac outlet or blink available neither will work. Hand hate is a good way to get rid of the card, but cards like Baloth Null, Den Protector, Macabre Waltz, Liliana, Heretical Healer and more can get it back.
As for what zombies we have, I think there's some decent choices already, but I don't think the deck needs to be zombie tribal, I think the sacrifice, gy recursion angle is enough to play with to make up something worth experimenting with.
For example, let's take a look at what swinging with RD means to an opponent. First, they have to put two or more in front of it, and then if they do put more than two power in front of it, they have to worry about it recurring creatures, or itself from the GY. Menace on a 2/2 doesn't seem that threatening, but it is 10% of your starting life total and if you simply let it go over the course of the game, it's not favourable.
I guess Menace could give you board advantage, if you're in a situation where you have equal number of blockers and attackers with the risk of recursion. Maybe he needs to go in more aggressive decks?
This is far from a simple interaction like Goblin Dark Dwellers. The payload of the card is in it's potential. You can play mono-black and still be able to cast Geralf's Masterpiece and Baloth Null out of your GY into the battlefied and get your RD back in your hand. Can you imagine? It's surreal.
I guess it would be nice... I'd like to see more midrangey zombies tho, since 6-7 mana is a pretty big investment.
As for what zombies we have, I think there's some decent choices already, but I don't think the deck needs to be zombie tribal, I think the sacrifice, gy recursion angle is enough to play with to make up something worth experimenting with.
Thought this card needed a discussion thread obviously it's a powerful source of card advantage, by the question is, are the cards worth it? Will being able to infinitely recur a 2/2 menace for BBB a go be worth it? If it is, is there a home for it in our theoretical future standard? Will the second ability be the most powerful part or will it be too hard to make work?
Take it away MTGS
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/675954-relentless-dead
Others have mentioned the obvious synergy with Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. I also like that for two black it pushes you towards mono black so maybe Despoiler of Souls can find a home in this aggressive, recursion heavy deck. We lose Murderous Cut in rotation so hopefully we can get some more removal in SOI.
CUBE: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/73964;jsessionid=2DE1F5FF41A24820A137448A2FD5CF8F
I LIKE DRAGONS!
When he sticks, he's a 2/2 that gets blocked by just about anything and dies, making him swing for a miss every other turn due to summoning sickness. I know he has menace which is alright, but in such a creature heavy format, that doesn't help us much. He would be WAY better if he had deathtouch instead.
All this guy ends up doing is being fodder for Kalitas really.
That's the spoiler thread, this is for discussing the card in a specific Standard context.
To further the reasonable discussion, I like the tech with Kalitas - but I don't feel that an interaction with one good card is really enough to make a mono-black deck viable. Being able to run Grasp of Darkness and any good B removal in SOI should make the plan work a lot better, however
Holy *****, what a deep plant by Wizards. I forgot all about that guy. That's awesome!
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
What about the second ability used to recur bombs a la Whip of Erebos? We haven't seen all the spoilers yet, so we'd really have to analyse how many big zombie creatures we'll be getting. Geralf's Masterpiece looks "eh" until we see the full Madness package, I'll concede that, but we could still get something like Grave Titan.
*EDIT: Just realized he's a Giant, but still serves to illustrate my example
True, but it still sets you back on mana and board presence. If it came back to the battlefield like Bloodsoaked Champion, or if its ability triggered not only on death, it could be reliable enough. However, blocking with it and recurring it requires you to have 1 mana open, and sets you back 3 mana next turn if you want to trigger it endlessly. You're not getting creatures removed by blocking with it either, since it's basically a token, so while you're 3 mana behind every turn just to prevent damage (or doing nothing, if they have trample or evasion), your opponents are developing board and stalling you.
So I tend to disagree. We really need to have good Zombie bombs to make this card playable.
We've had 2 drops that didn't have evasion or a built in CA engine and they have seen play. This card is pushed a lot.
EDIT: Nvm, text says "another" zombie creature. I guess I misunderstood you then, since I thought you were talking about a single copy chaining off itself rather than a full playset of the thing.
For example, let's take a look at what swinging with RD means to an opponent. First, they have to put two or more in front of it, and then if they do put more than two power in front of it, they have to worry about it recurring creatures, or itself from the GY. Menace on a 2/2 doesn't seem that threatening, but it is 10% of your starting life total and if you simply let it go over the course of the game, it's not favourable.
On the flipside when your opponent is attacking, they have take into account your open mana not only for possible instants but also for what a blocking RD could mean for the board next turn. Being able to recur out of the graveyard means that you aren't limited to cards in hand.
This is far from a simple interaction like Goblin Dark Dwellers. The payload of the card is in it's potential. You can play mono-black and still be able to cast Geralf's Masterpiece and Baloth Null out of your GY into the battlefied and get your RD back in your hand. Can you imagine? It's surreal.
The solutions to this card are on the table are lockdown, exile and if there's a sac outlet or blink available neither will work. Hand hate is a good way to get rid of the card, but cards like Baloth Null, Den Protector, Macabre Waltz, Liliana, Heretical Healer and more can get it back.
As for what zombies we have, I think there's some decent choices already, but I don't think the deck needs to be zombie tribal, I think the sacrifice, gy recursion angle is enough to play with to make up something worth experimenting with.
I guess Menace could give you board advantage, if you're in a situation where you have equal number of blockers and attackers with the risk of recursion. Maybe he needs to go in more aggressive decks?
I guess it would be nice... I'd like to see more midrangey zombies tho, since 6-7 mana is a pretty big investment.
Sounds interesting! too bad Rally the Ancients will be gone, but we could still see possibilities with cheap card advantage like Evolutionary Leap or Vampiric Rites.