So there are Kithkin, Elves, Goblins and many more tribes in Lorwyn, but no Zombies.
But does that mean there can't be a good T2 Zombie deck? I don't think so.
It can have pretty fast starts, with third turn Lord and fourth turn Warchief, and it has a lategame with Grim Harvest , which is not only great with Shriekmaw but also assures you won't be in "Top Deck Mode" too fast against control.
There are some things to beat aggro: 7 cards that can destroy (4 Shriekmaw + 3 Nameless Inversion.)
Also, it's full of little synergies, the best being Grim Harvest + Shriekmaw, but Lord of the Undead + Nameless Inversion also works quite well.
Edit 1 : Added Sangrophages. Cut the Withered Wretches. Thinking about Loxodon Warhammer, but I'm unsure what to cut. Probably the Bad Moons since I want many creatures to profit from my lord.
I'm thinking of the zombies more as a pure aggro tribe, not as aggro/control; just because they can be so fast with the 8 Lords, one of them giving +2/+1.
I often evoke Shriekmaw to get rid of blockers, for example.
I'm not saying your decklist is bad; it's just not the way I would play Zombies.
I'm not playing Korlash right now because it makes my mana curve too expensive; I already run 4 four-drops with the Warchiefs and 4 potential five-drops with the Shriekmaws.
A zombie a lot of people are forgetting is Sangrophage. Talk about speed, aside from the 2 life loss which is acceptble, you have a 3/3 on turn 2 and quite possibly a 4/4 on turn 3.
I'm a fan of the first decklist, so I'd run it exactly like that, but putting the Wretch in the SB and Sangrophage MD.
P.S. Even though he is a beast at times, I can't see Korlash making this list. He is a little slow compared to all the other zombies. I would play him if we didn't have so many 2-3 drop zombies and more destructive spells.
"What do you want to achieve or avoid? The answers to this question are objectives. How will you go about achieving your desired results? The answer to this you can call strategy.” -William E. Rothschild
I would play him if we didn't have so many 2-3 drop zombies and more destructive spells.
...which would turn the deck into aggro-control, which isn't what I want it to be.
Sangrophage seems ok, I'll test the deck with him instead of Withered Wretch.
He's worse than Withered Wretch in the Aggro-Matchup, because he might make you lose the Damage Race.
Against Control, however, the lifeloss doesn't matter at all and it's just a 3/3 for 2, which is great.
From my experience with my own Zombie deck, I think that Sangrophage is worth playing in MD. Also, I would suggest that you play Graveborn Muse and Loxodon Warhammer; the Muse gives you massive card advantage, and the Warhammer also prevents you from dying w/ necro. The hammer also helps you gain the life lost from the Sangrophage as well, and if you are desperate, you could always sacrifice the Muse to the Nantuko Husk.
P.S. Stromgald Crusader works wonders; I have often won matches with these zombies w/ wings
I've tested the deck a bit (with Sangrophage rather than Withered Wretch, this one is good) and wasn't too amazed.
- The matchup against control is pretty bad. I Lost to U/B as well as to Mono Red Snow Control. I manage to deal some damage before a Damnation but couldn't recover after it.
My creatures aren't that strong without lords and warchiefs, so Damnation/Wrath hits this deck pretty badly.
A solution might be Loxodon Warhammer, which turns any creature into a threat. I'm not too sure if Graveborn Muse is good; it's another four-drop, and against aggro, you don't really need the card advantage since it's a damage race.
I guess I'll try the Warhammer as a 2 or 3 of, I just don't know what to cut. Bad Moons or a mediocre Zombie like Nantuko Husk maybe?
- The matchup against aggro depends on your draws; if you have a good curve with lords/moons, your creatures should be stronger than your opponent's; and one big creature like a Goyf can be dealt with by Shriekmaw.
I like your primary build, but i guess it need some updates. You can't deal against control without a discard engine, that's a fact that lives with Zombies by now, cards like Damnation just screw your day. For that, Thoughtseize or for buget players Distress.
Another point is, you must find a way to keep your hand with fuel to spend, so Graveborn Muse is your girl, and with Nantuko Husk by your side (he's not crap, not even mediocre, just need the right usage of it), you can manage how long she can trouble you.
Loxodon Warhammer is not really necessary, you'll have enough pump to kill, and trample and lifelink are just win more condition.
For Sangrophage spot, i rather keep using Withered Wretch, even more when Tarmogoyf is the star around.
When facing control, exchange removal spells for Distress and Dash Hopes / Pithing Needle; Cruel Edict is for decks with Troll; and Crypt against GY based decks.
Lands are not optmized but, you can add some sort of removal on it like Quicksand, Desert or lands like that and maybe some Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to optmize it.
3H
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"Now i lay you, down to rest, you'll never be more than second best" (Megadeth)
I really like your build, discard is something I didn't think of when I was thinking about the control matchup. If budget isn't an issue (I'm currently testing on MWS), I'll probably play 4 Thoughtseize since they aren't a dead card against aggro, either.
Discard is probably the better way to approach the control-MU problem than Loxodon Warhammer, which is a bit of win-more, you're right there.
I'm not convinced of Graveborn Muse, however, because it doesn't really do much in aggro games, sometimes you can't even play it; since it will be a damage race, drawing cards for life isn't what you want.
To gain some lategame card advantage, I prefer Grim Harvest. You can also sometimes randomly build up the Shriekmaw-Harvest engine to win an aggro matchup that took long enough that you have ~7 lands out.
The question Withered Wretch vs. Sangrophage is a good one since Stromgald Crusader is too good to cut and we don't need more than 8 two-drops. Wretch deals with Tarmogoyf, you're right there, but you have to pump quite some mana into it, which often isn't want you want.
However, if I use Thoughtseize, the lifeloss might be too much with Sangrophage.
I'm not certain yet on this point, will need some more testing.
Why aren't you playing temporal extortion it is good in a monoblack aggro deck
also why is the stormgard thing good? it dies because of a mog fanatic and I am not sure how often you will use the extra mana
also why aren't you playing 4 blood moon`? also 4 grim harvest are a little bit to much
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My new houserules:
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
This deck can be a strong aggro choice...and Korlash belongs in the deck. It is crazy not to. I run him with tendrils and consume spirit to keep ahead of graveborn muse. I know that Zombie Aggro did top 8 at Virgina states.
I found the deck-list, it was played to 4th place at Virgina States
But does that mean there can't be a good T2 Zombie deck? I don't think so.
Here's what I've been thinking of:
4 Festering Goblin
4 Sangrophage
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Nantuko Husk
4 Lord of the Undead
4 Undead Warchief
4 Shriekmaw
4 Grim Harvest
3 Nameless Inversion
3 Bad Moon
22 Swamp
There are some things to beat aggro: 7 cards that can destroy (4 Shriekmaw + 3 Nameless Inversion.)
Also, it's full of little synergies, the best being Grim Harvest + Shriekmaw, but Lord of the Undead + Nameless Inversion also works quite well.
Edit 1 : Added Sangrophages. Cut the Withered Wretches. Thinking about Loxodon Warhammer, but I'm unsure what to cut. Probably the Bad Moons since I want many creatures to profit from my lord.
Feel free to comment.
2 Graveborn Muse
4 Zombie Warchief
3 Severed Legion
3 Shriekmaw
4 Lord of the Undead
2 Loxodan Warhammer
4 Cruel Edict
2 Damnation
3 Tendrils of Corruption
3 Sudden Death
4 Mind Stone
20 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Extirpate
2 Jester's Scepter
2 Damnation
1 Tendrils of Corruption
4 Withered Wretch
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sudden Death
I often evoke Shriekmaw to get rid of blockers, for example.
I'm not saying your decklist is bad; it's just not the way I would play Zombies.
I'm not playing Korlash right now because it makes my mana curve too expensive; I already run 4 four-drops with the Warchiefs and 4 potential five-drops with the Shriekmaws.
I'm a fan of the first decklist, so I'd run it exactly like that, but putting the Wretch in the SB and Sangrophage MD.
P.S. Even though he is a beast at times, I can't see Korlash making this list. He is a little slow compared to all the other zombies. I would play him if we didn't have so many 2-3 drop zombies and more destructive spells.
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Sangrophage seems ok, I'll test the deck with him instead of Withered Wretch.
He's worse than Withered Wretch in the Aggro-Matchup, because he might make you lose the Damage Race.
Against Control, however, the lifeloss doesn't matter at all and it's just a 3/3 for 2, which is great.
Thanks for your comment,
Finrod
P.S. Stromgald Crusader works wonders; I have often won matches with these zombies w/ wings
Now playing:
U(B/W)[ALA] Esper Midrange (B/W)U
Previous decks:
G(W/B) [LOR] Treefolk (W/B)G
(W/G) T2 Devoted Druid Mana Ramp (W/G)
- The matchup against control is pretty bad. I Lost to U/B as well as to Mono Red Snow Control. I manage to deal some damage before a Damnation but couldn't recover after it.
My creatures aren't that strong without lords and warchiefs, so Damnation/Wrath hits this deck pretty badly.
A solution might be Loxodon Warhammer, which turns any creature into a threat. I'm not too sure if Graveborn Muse is good; it's another four-drop, and against aggro, you don't really need the card advantage since it's a damage race.
I guess I'll try the Warhammer as a 2 or 3 of, I just don't know what to cut. Bad Moons or a mediocre Zombie like Nantuko Husk maybe?
- The matchup against aggro depends on your draws; if you have a good curve with lords/moons, your creatures should be stronger than your opponent's; and one big creature like a Goyf can be dealt with by Shriekmaw.
I like your primary build, but i guess it need some updates. You can't deal against control without a discard engine, that's a fact that lives with Zombies by now, cards like Damnation just screw your day. For that, Thoughtseize or for buget players Distress.
Another point is, you must find a way to keep your hand with fuel to spend, so Graveborn Muse is your girl, and with Nantuko Husk by your side (he's not crap, not even mediocre, just need the right usage of it), you can manage how long she can trouble you.
Loxodon Warhammer is not really necessary, you'll have enough pump to kill, and trample and lifelink are just win more condition.
For Sangrophage spot, i rather keep using Withered Wretch, even more when Tarmogoyf is the star around.
So, my build is like that:
21 Swamps
CREATURES (27)
04 Festering Goblin
04 Withered Wretch
04 Stromgald Crusader
04 Nantuko Husk
04 Lord of the Undead
04 Undead Warchief
03 Graveborn Muse
04 Thoughtseize
04 Nameless Inversion
04 Sudden Death
04 Distress
04 Dash Hopes
04 Cruel Edict
03 Tormod's Crypt
When facing control, exchange removal spells for Distress and Dash Hopes / Pithing Needle; Cruel Edict is for decks with Troll; and Crypt against GY based decks.
Lands are not optmized but, you can add some sort of removal on it like Quicksand, Desert or lands like that and maybe some Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to optmize it.
3H
Discard is probably the better way to approach the control-MU problem than Loxodon Warhammer, which is a bit of win-more, you're right there.
I'm not convinced of Graveborn Muse, however, because it doesn't really do much in aggro games, sometimes you can't even play it; since it will be a damage race, drawing cards for life isn't what you want.
To gain some lategame card advantage, I prefer Grim Harvest. You can also sometimes randomly build up the Shriekmaw-Harvest engine to win an aggro matchup that took long enough that you have ~7 lands out.
The question Withered Wretch vs. Sangrophage is a good one since Stromgald Crusader is too good to cut and we don't need more than 8 two-drops. Wretch deals with Tarmogoyf, you're right there, but you have to pump quite some mana into it, which often isn't want you want.
However, if I use Thoughtseize, the lifeloss might be too much with Sangrophage.
I'm not certain yet on this point, will need some more testing.
also why is the stormgard thing good? it dies because of a mog fanatic and I am not sure how often you will use the extra mana
also why aren't you playing 4 blood moon`? also 4 grim harvest are a little bit to much
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
I found the deck-list, it was played to 4th place at Virgina States
Lands
23 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Withered Wretch
4 Lord of the Undead
4 Nantuko Husk
3 Tombstalker
4 Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
4 Undead Warchief
2 Graveborn Muse
4 Tendrils of Corruption
3 Profane Command
3 Sudden Death
2 Consume Spirit
4 Thoughtseize
2 Graveborn Muse
4 Terror
Here is the list I have been running
4 Festering Goblin
3 Graveborn Muse
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
4 Lord of the Undead
3 Twisted Abomination
3 Undead Warchief
4 Tendrils of Corruption
4 Cruel Edict
3 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Quicksand