So your tech is -3 Carabid -1 land +1 Leviathan +1 Ponder +2 Corpse... interesting. So you agree with Jacobs that Ponder>Carabid? How is Ponder working out for you? And is the deck consistent with only 4 cyclers?
So your tech is -3 Carabid -1 land +1 Leviathan +1 Ponder +2 Corpse... interesting. So you agree with Jacobs that Ponder>Carabid? How is Ponder working out for you? And is the deck consistent with only 4 cyclers?
Do i need to sling around the 80/20 against the whole field but Boros and RDW again. Ponder >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carabid. As it allows you to look at the top of your libray before you mill it and either pick a card that you need from them or shuffle and draw a random one and mill random cards. When i draw a ponder i am never like "darn i get to look at the top 3 of my deck and replace this card with one of them". Only 2 for this deck because while it is awesome for getting into combo it does nothing for the actual combo. The cycler's while good don't actually do damage so i find using 4 is the correct number. In this deck you don't want to be drawing to much you want to be self milling so have 6 draw cards in here is good for drawing/find the crabs/tomescours.
Do i need to sling around the 80/20 against the whole field but Boros and RDW again. Ponder >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carabid. As it allows you to look at the top of your libray before you mill it and either pick a card that you need from them or shuffle and draw a random one and mill random cards. When i draw a ponder i am never like "darn i get to look at the top 3 of my deck and replace this card with one of them". Only 2 for this deck because while it is awesome for getting into combo it does nothing for the actual combo. The cycler's while good don't actually do damage so i find using 4 is the correct number. In this deck you don't want to be drawing to much you want to be self milling so have 6 draw cards in here is good for drawing/find the crabs/tomescours.
Interesting. I'm still slightly skeptical, but considering this is like a "happy medium" (+tech, of course) between Yasooka and Jacobs, I figure I'll try playing around with it tomorrow.
EDIT: Sideboard's genius, though, I'll give you that.
Interesting. I'm still slightly skeptical, but considering this is like a "happy medium" (+tech, of course) between Yasooka and Jacobs, I figure I'll try playing around with it tomorrow.
What do you guys think of the sideboard tech? Also it is fun to chain together Corpses to get 2 3/3's and untap the crypt to unearth the rest of the grave.
Your deck is only three cards and a couple lands off from mine, and your claims are still outragous. I'll try your exact maindeck, as it actually looks pretty good, but there is no way you are putting up the results you are claiming with a deck that is almost exactly the same as the one everyone else is running. Try playing a hundred games against good players and get back to me on that 80/20 game one.
On the sideboard, running 3 spreading seas seems pretty bad when you really want them in multiples, and blister beatle is just better against boros than fleshbag.
What do you guys think of the sideboard tech? Also it is fun to chain together Corpses to get 2 3/3's and untap the crypt to unearth the rest of the grave.
I really like the Warps and the Fleshbags; I've used Warps before, but never thought about using them here. And Fleshbags are pretty good as well; I hadn't considered the implications of "upgrading" the Rats while adding to the grave count. Really neat ideas!
Your deck is only three cards and a couple lands off from mine, and your claims are still outragous. I'll try your exact maindeck, as it actually looks pretty good, but there is no way you are putting up the results you are claiming with a deck that is almost exactly the same as the one everyone else is running. Try playing a hundred games against good players and get back to me on that 80/20 game one.
On the sideboard, running 3 spreading seas seems pretty bad when you really want them in multiples, and blister beatle is just better against boros than fleshbag.
Did you read my sideboard the 4 agony warps are way ahead of blister beetle plus you can "upgrade rats with the fleshbag" and against just we already ave a very good match up. the side board just adds to the win percentage by being able to protect the crab and mess with their land base is amazing if you hit one of their lands on turn 2 and you go off turn 4-5 they will be slowed down way to much to even stand a chance.
Fleshbag is good against more than boro's also as it can kill shroud creatures and baneslayers and can be picked up via grim discovery and cast against.
ok maybe not 80/20 but still a good 65-70% chance to win.
The thing that makes this deck so good is that it can win in all the ways you can. (mill, aggro, and combo) Which also make this deck so darn fun to play :). we might have to come up with a tech to take out pithing needles though if people start naming extractor demons left and right.
the reason i chose spell pierce over duress was that i don't care if they have multiple answers in their hand i only care if one of those answers are cast and want to be able to so umm I DON"T THINK SO.
Did you read my sideboard the 4 agony warps are way ahead of blister beetle plus you can "upgrade rats with the fleshbag" and against just we already ave a very good match up. the side board just adds to the win percentage by being able to protect the crab and mess with their land base is amazing if you hit one of their lands on turn 2 and you go off turn 4-5 they will be slowed down way to much to even stand a chance.
Fleshbag is good against more than boro's also as it can kill shroud creatures and baneslayers and can be picked up via grim discovery and cast against.
See, here you make good points instead of just spouting impossible numbers. I like the agony warps, and I suppose the fleshbags might be good, although I still prefer beetle. Spell pierce also seems like it might be good. I still think you need a 4th spreading seas though.
See, here you make good points instead of just spouting impossible numbers. I like the agony warps, and I suppose the fleshbags might be good, although I still prefer beetle. Spell pierce also seems like it might be good. I still think you need a 4th spreading seas though.
Why do we need more than one spreading seas in a game against jund when the game lasts at most 4-5 turns?
I welcome your ideas, actually i love your ideas, i just will make really good points on my card choices so be prepared for them.
To be honest i have really never tested the spell pierces so i don't know is negate is better or not it just seems more likely to have that lone blue open rather than 2 mana :P.
Why do we need more than one spreading seas in a game against jund when the game lasts at most 4-5 turns?
I welcome your ideas, actually i love your ideas, i just will make really good points on my card choices so be prepared for them.
There's the 4-5 turns again. This deck is not capable of getting a turn 4 win more often than once in a blue moon. Most often, you are winning turn 6. The whole point of spreading seas is to deny them red mana. If they get a red after you spreading seas it makes the spreading seas bad. One spreading seas can easily be overcome. Two is usually gg.
Overall, I don't think we really disagree much on the deck, and I'd like us to work together, but I just find it hard to have a serious conversation while you continue to claim you can consistently go off turn 4.
Edit in response to your edit- I like spell pierce way better than negate. Leaving two mana open all the time is not reasonable, especially when what you want to counter is instant speed. I would be thinking about duress instead of spell pierce more than anything.
There's the 4-5 turns again. This deck is not capable of getting a turn 4 win more often than once in a blue moon. Most often, you are winning turn 6. The whole point of spreading seas is to deny them red mana. If they get a red after you spreading seas it makes the spreading seas bad. One spreading seas can easily be overcome. Two is usually gg.
Overall, I don't think we really disagree much on the deck, and I'd like us to work together, but I just find it hard to have a serious conversation while you continue to claim you can consistently go off turn 4.
In my testing comboing turn 4 was not a once in a blue moon at all is was more like 2/5 games and the others i would combo turn 5 i think that i had 2 turn 6 wins and that was because i got horrible milling. You just need to know when to mull and what is a good hand we should create some rules for that and i will post some just give me a sec.
I guess I just don't get how you can have turn 4 wins consistently with a list that is almost identical to everyone else. And when you have Flashbags at 3 mana, how does that not clog up your turns. I find myself using almost every open mana I have to play stuff until the very end and it seems like Fleshbag is just bad in that respect. And really, what are you going to kill with Fleshbag that makes it worth sacrificing those 3 mana?
I like Agony Warp and have played with it some... and they are still in contention with Doom Blade.
I agree with PP in that your deck and way of thinking is very much inline with what we all know and love about this deck, but your numbers and expectations of the deck make me think you have played the deck against a relatively small sample size.
Rules for mulling
Crab with either a crypt or grimdiscovery, or if you have ponder/cyclers
Crypt with either a crab/tomescour, having grim discovery is good but not needed
Grim discovery with either crab/tomescour
Always have a way to get black mana or have a ponder/cycler in your hand to make sure you can draw it.
If you don’t have one of the above configurations you can mull to 4 or even 3 to try and get one but that will only happen if you are super unlucky.
And this is how i combo turn 4 three fifths of the time (3/5). The fleshbags are experimental might still trade them for the coils or the beetle.
Rules for mulling
Crab with either a crypt or grimdiscovery, or if you have ponder/cyclers
Crypt with either a crab/tomescour, having grim discovery is good but not needed
Grim discovery with either crab/tomescour
Always have a way to get black mana or have a ponder/cycler in your hand to make sure you can draw it.
If you don’t have one of the above configurations you can mull to 4 or even 3 to try and get one but that will only happen if you are super unlucky.
Seem like good rules. It's pretty much exactly what I've been doing.
but if your crab gets pathed, bolted, disfigured, lightined, etc etc. you just expect to get super draws in top deck mode? :/ , what if you never get the crab?
but if your crab gets pathed, bolted, disfigured, lightined, etc etc. you just expect to get super draws in top deck mode? :/ , what if you never get the crab?
A good tip is to never play crab turn 1. Always play it turn 2 followed by fetch of some sort so you always get 6 cards milled. Getting your crab removed is definitly bad though and usually means your heading for a turn 6-7 win.
Also, the mulling is hard because sometimes you just can't get a crypt or grim discovery and have to rely on cantrips to get you to one. Other times you get a crypt or grim and can't pass it up and then get your crab removed or just have one tome scour and don't draw into more mill, ect. Basically, the deck has major consistency issues.
but if your crab gets pathed, bolted, disfigured, lightined, etc etc. you just expect to get super draws in top deck mode? :/ , what if you never get the crab?
If we never get a crab when we have tomescour/grimdiscovery/ponder/cyclers/fetchlands(for shuffling) to find one then they are all on the bottom of my library and i don't know how to shuffle and as long as i can hard cast creatures (all creatures can be hard cast by turn 4 except the leviathan) and have at least 1 mill card either a tomescour/crabs you should be able to win turn 5. If you are really unlucky turn 6. The trick is to know when to mill yourself and when to cycle/play ponder/discovery.
Also agony warp not being a creature does not hurt you if you side out the right things. See above.
i know, its obvious we ll try to do that, but in rsponse to trigger to many things can happen, yesterday i was on that situation:
1st turn : tome scour
2nd turn: crab fetch WAHEY! wait! wait! path ....
3th turn: just wait to see what happens...
i drew tome scour and i had a crypt, but that not allways happens...
So don't crack the fetch until their turn... either they eot remove it and then you fetch in response or you do it on their turn and you screw up their curve. You can also just not crack it on their turn and then play a land your next turn with the fetch still in reserve.
i know, its obvious we ll try to do that, but in rsponse to trigger to many things can happen, yesterday i was on that situation:
1st turn : tome scour
2nd turn: crab fetch WAHEY! wait! wait! path ....
3th turn: just wait to see what happens...
i drew tome scour and i had a crypt, but that not allways happens...
If you know they have path or bolt mana open play your fetch first then the crab and in response to their bolt/path you can crack the fetch to get a land and 3 cards milled. If they don't have mana open or you know that they can't deal with crabs on that turn play the crabs first and then mill 6 cards. And you are more likely to be able to get multiple tomescours/crabs/crypt with the ponders. So as long as you have an uncracked fetch they can't shoot the crab without you milling 3 and getting some use out of it ;).
If you know they have path or bolt mana open play your fetch first then the crab and in response to their bolt/path you can crack the fetch to get a land and 3 cards milled. If they don't have mana open or you know that they can't deal with crabs on that turn play the crabs first and then mill 6 cards. And you are more likely to be able to get multiple tomescours/crabs/crypt with the ponders.
My play is better. You don't pass priority in between the crab resolving and playing the fetch. You can't respond to a land being played either. So the first time they get priority is when the crab's trigger is on the stack. At that point if they try to remove it then you get 6 cards, and if they don't remove it just progress as I already said.
My play is better. You don't pass priority in between the crab resolving and playing the fetch. You can't respond to a land being played either. So the first time they get priority is when the crab's trigger is on the stack. At that point if they try to remove it then you get 6 cards, and if they don't remove it just progress as I already said.
ok so we get 6 to mill 6 cards when we play a crab and then drop a fetch and they can't do anything about it?
i just looked at the warp world thread for an unknown reason and it explained it and yes we do get 6 cards milled ;). The only way to stop us from getting 6 cards is if they wait for us to play a fetch and then crack it and the respond to us tapping the fetch. Wow most people will just let us mill the 6 cards lol.
Edit- I'm going to say this a different way, and be more clear about it because how I said it before was about as clear as mud.
You play crab. Crab is on the stack, they can’t remove it when it is on the stack so they pass priority back to you. crab resolves. You have priority. You play the fetch and crab’s trigger goes on the stack. If they remove crab now, you crack fetch in response and mill 6. If they don’t, pass the turn. Now if they remove the crab, you can still fetch in response. They can leave removal mana up to keep you from cracking the land, but that screws their tempo as much as yours and leaves you with a live crab and as long as you have another land you come out ahead anyway. Alternatively, if they tap out, crack the fetch, mill three, and use the mana to cycle something at their eot.
As long as you don't crack the land the only thing they can do to stop you getting six cards is to leave up removal mana all the time, and if they don't kill it, your crab stays alive and you can continue to mill with other lands.
Woot so as long as we play the crab turn 2 then we will get to mill ourselves for 3 cards no matter what. That make me happy.
So have you guys run out of questions or what? :). The only thing that needs to be confirmed now is what is better blisterbeetle or fleshbag? and should it be a 3/3 split between the beetle and agony warp or 4/2 2/4?
4 Architects of will
4 Sedrix Specter
4 Rotting rats
4 Extractor demon
4 Viscera dragger
2 Corpse Connoisseur
4 Hedron crab
2 fatestitcher
1 Kederekt Leviathan
2 Ponder (they work)
4 tome scour
4 Grim discovery
Land
4 Crypt of Agadeem
4 Scalding tarn
4 Terramorphic expanse (not budget, the best for comboing turn 4's)
4 swamp
4 Island
1 mountain
3 Spreading seas
3 Spell pierce
4 agony warp
3 Pithing needle
2 Fleshbag marauder
Boros
+4 Agony warp
+2 fleshbag Marauders
-2 Corpse Connoisseur
-1 mountain
-1 extractor demon
-2 Viscera dragger
Jund
3 Spreading seas
3 Spell pierce
-2 ponder
-4 tome scour
Nissa
3 Pithing needle
4 agony warp
-2 ponder
-2 tomescour
-3 Rotting rats
R/W planeswalkers
3 pithing needle
3 Spell pierce
2 Fleshbag Marauders
-4 tome scour
-2 ponder
-1 sedraxis Specter
-1 Viscera dragger
You guys are right nothing this good should be kept a secret just don't tell jund ;).
GR Ramp Happy Valakut GR
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Do i need to sling around the 80/20 against the whole field but Boros and RDW again. Ponder >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carabid. As it allows you to look at the top of your libray before you mill it and either pick a card that you need from them or shuffle and draw a random one and mill random cards. When i draw a ponder i am never like "darn i get to look at the top 3 of my deck and replace this card with one of them". Only 2 for this deck because while it is awesome for getting into combo it does nothing for the actual combo. The cycler's while good don't actually do damage so i find using 4 is the correct number. In this deck you don't want to be drawing to much you want to be self milling so have 6 draw cards in here is good for drawing/find the crabs/tomescours.
GR Ramp Happy Valakut GR
Interesting. I'm still slightly skeptical, but considering this is like a "happy medium" (+tech, of course) between Yasooka and Jacobs, I figure I'll try playing around with it tomorrow.
EDIT: Sideboard's genius, though, I'll give you that.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
What do you guys think of the sideboard tech? Also it is fun to chain together Corpses to get 2 3/3's and untap the crypt to unearth the rest of the grave.
GR Ramp Happy Valakut GR
Your deck is only three cards and a couple lands off from mine, and your claims are still outragous. I'll try your exact maindeck, as it actually looks pretty good, but there is no way you are putting up the results you are claiming with a deck that is almost exactly the same as the one everyone else is running. Try playing a hundred games against good players and get back to me on that 80/20 game one.
On the sideboard, running 3 spreading seas seems pretty bad when you really want them in multiples, and blister beatle is just better against boros than fleshbag.
I really like the Warps and the Fleshbags; I've used Warps before, but never thought about using them here. And Fleshbags are pretty good as well; I hadn't considered the implications of "upgrading" the Rats while adding to the grave count. Really neat ideas!
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Did you read my sideboard the 4 agony warps are way ahead of blister beetle plus you can "upgrade rats with the fleshbag" and against just we already ave a very good match up. the side board just adds to the win percentage by being able to protect the crab and mess with their land base is amazing if you hit one of their lands on turn 2 and you go off turn 4-5 they will be slowed down way to much to even stand a chance.
Fleshbag is good against more than boro's also as it can kill shroud creatures and baneslayers and can be picked up via grim discovery and cast against.
ok maybe not 80/20 but still a good 65-70% chance to win.
The thing that makes this deck so good is that it can win in all the ways you can. (mill, aggro, and combo) Which also make this deck so darn fun to play :). we might have to come up with a tech to take out pithing needles though if people start naming extractor demons left and right.
the reason i chose spell pierce over duress was that i don't care if they have multiple answers in their hand i only care if one of those answers are cast and want to be able to so umm I DON"T THINK SO.
GR Ramp Happy Valakut GR
See, here you make good points instead of just spouting impossible numbers. I like the agony warps, and I suppose the fleshbags might be good, although I still prefer beetle. Spell pierce also seems like it might be good. I still think you need a 4th spreading seas though.
Why do we need more than one spreading seas in a game against jund when the game lasts at most 4-5 turns?
I welcome your ideas, actually i love your ideas, i just will make really good points on my card choices so be prepared for them.
To be honest i have really never tested the spell pierces so i don't know is negate is better or not it just seems more likely to have that lone blue open rather than 2 mana :P.
GR Ramp Happy Valakut GR
There's the 4-5 turns again. This deck is not capable of getting a turn 4 win more often than once in a blue moon. Most often, you are winning turn 6. The whole point of spreading seas is to deny them red mana. If they get a red after you spreading seas it makes the spreading seas bad. One spreading seas can easily be overcome. Two is usually gg.
Overall, I don't think we really disagree much on the deck, and I'd like us to work together, but I just find it hard to have a serious conversation while you continue to claim you can consistently go off turn 4.
Edit in response to your edit- I like spell pierce way better than negate. Leaving two mana open all the time is not reasonable, especially when what you want to counter is instant speed. I would be thinking about duress instead of spell pierce more than anything.
In my testing comboing turn 4 was not a once in a blue moon at all is was more like 2/5 games and the others i would combo turn 5 i think that i had 2 turn 6 wins and that was because i got horrible milling. You just need to know when to mull and what is a good hand we should create some rules for that and i will post some just give me a sec.
GR Ramp Happy Valakut GR
I like Agony Warp and have played with it some... and they are still in contention with Doom Blade.
I agree with PP in that your deck and way of thinking is very much inline with what we all know and love about this deck, but your numbers and expectations of the deck make me think you have played the deck against a relatively small sample size.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Crab with either a crypt or grimdiscovery, or if you have ponder/cyclers
Crypt with either a crab/tomescour, having grim discovery is good but not needed
Grim discovery with either crab/tomescour
Always have a way to get black mana or have a ponder/cycler in your hand to make sure you can draw it.
If you don’t have one of the above configurations you can mull to 4 or even 3 to try and get one but that will only happen if you are super unlucky.
And this is how i combo turn 4 three fifths of the time (3/5). The fleshbags are experimental might still trade them for the coils or the beetle.
GR Ramp Happy Valakut GR
Seem like good rules. It's pretty much exactly what I've been doing.
A good tip is to never play crab turn 1. Always play it turn 2 followed by fetch of some sort so you always get 6 cards milled. Getting your crab removed is definitly bad though and usually means your heading for a turn 6-7 win.
Also, the mulling is hard because sometimes you just can't get a crypt or grim discovery and have to rely on cantrips to get you to one. Other times you get a crypt or grim and can't pass it up and then get your crab removed or just have one tome scour and don't draw into more mill, ect. Basically, the deck has major consistency issues.
If we never get a crab when we have tomescour/grimdiscovery/ponder/cyclers/fetchlands(for shuffling) to find one then they are all on the bottom of my library and i don't know how to shuffle and as long as i can hard cast creatures (all creatures can be hard cast by turn 4 except the leviathan) and have at least 1 mill card either a tomescour/crabs you should be able to win turn 5. If you are really unlucky turn 6. The trick is to know when to mill yourself and when to cycle/play ponder/discovery.
Also agony warp not being a creature does not hurt you if you side out the right things. See above.
GR Ramp Happy Valakut GR
i know, its obvious we ll try to do that, but in rsponse to trigger to many things can happen, yesterday i was on that situation:
1st turn : tome scour
2nd turn: crab fetch WAHEY! wait! wait! path ....
3th turn: just wait to see what happens...
i drew tome scour and i had a crypt, but that not allways happens...
So don't crack the fetch until their turn... either they eot remove it and then you fetch in response or you do it on their turn and you screw up their curve. You can also just not crack it on their turn and then play a land your next turn with the fetch still in reserve.
If you know they have path or bolt mana open play your fetch first then the crab and in response to their bolt/path you can crack the fetch to get a land and 3 cards milled. If they don't have mana open or you know that they can't deal with crabs on that turn play the crabs first and then mill 6 cards. And you are more likely to be able to get multiple tomescours/crabs/crypt with the ponders. So as long as you have an uncracked fetch they can't shoot the crab without you milling 3 and getting some use out of it ;).
GR Ramp Happy Valakut GR
My play is better. You don't pass priority in between the crab resolving and playing the fetch. You can't respond to a land being played either. So the first time they get priority is when the crab's trigger is on the stack. At that point if they try to remove it then you get 6 cards, and if they don't remove it just progress as I already said.
ok so we get 6 to mill 6 cards when we play a crab and then drop a fetch and they can't do anything about it?
i just looked at the warp world thread for an unknown reason and it explained it and yes we do get 6 cards milled ;). The only way to stop us from getting 6 cards is if they wait for us to play a fetch and then crack it and the respond to us tapping the fetch. Wow most people will just let us mill the 6 cards lol.
GR Ramp Happy Valakut GR
You play crab. Crab is on the stack, they can’t remove it when it is on the stack so they pass priority back to you. crab resolves. You have priority. You play the fetch and crab’s trigger goes on the stack. If they remove crab now, you crack fetch in response and mill 6. If they don’t, pass the turn. Now if they remove the crab, you can still fetch in response. They can leave removal mana up to keep you from cracking the land, but that screws their tempo as much as yours and leaves you with a live crab and as long as you have another land you come out ahead anyway. Alternatively, if they tap out, crack the fetch, mill three, and use the mana to cycle something at their eot.
Woot so as long as we play the crab turn 2 then we will get to mill ourselves for 3 cards no matter what. That make me happy.
So have you guys run out of questions or what? :). The only thing that needs to be confirmed now is what is better blisterbeetle or fleshbag? and should it be a 3/3 split between the beetle and agony warp or 4/2 2/4?
GR Ramp Happy Valakut GR