Question to all: Was turbofog helping me put cards in my 'yard particular to that build I had a spat with or is it universal in any build? I mean, he traumatised me pretty badly, which actually only helped me.
Also, my clanboss says:
What can we do against it?
Its been asked at least twice on every page in the thread. If your worried, board the Pithing Needle. You can also play around it with a little guile (Hardcast Extractor Demons off of crypt mana, hardcast Architects, etc.).
I know I'm in the minority here but I don't like the rats that much. Against Jund I would take them out because they dont speed up the combo, don't have unearth. Since Jund is already a good matchup, I don't need to disrupt their hand, just their mana. I usually wait til they tap out for something before comboing out anyway, so making them discard isn't huge.
I really like the spreading seas against them, still. It might have to change if enough people are actually going to play Borderland Ranger, who knows.
@SoulManipulation: I like the card but its just... narrow and weak... and its not a black creature. When would you bring it in? What do you take out for it?
I know I'm in the minority here but I don't like the rats that much. Against Jund I would take them out because they dont speed up the combo, don't have unearth. Since Jund is already a good matchup, I don't need to disrupt their hand, just their mana. I usually wait til they tap out for something before comboing out anyway, so making them discard isn't huge.
Rats do have unearth, though. They can block and come back for round 2.
I would sideboard 4 of them if there were any good counterspell decks around.
Or if they could block.
This deck usually wins in one big sweep. Bloodghasts aren't very relevant.
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
You usually drop your opponent from 15-20 to dead in a single swing. Ghasts won't have haste, can't be unearthed as reliably, and cost BB to cast. None of those things make them seem like a strong choice for the deck.
This the last time I'm responding to a non-PM'd complaint. Such things have no place in the thread.
First, adressing the matter of percieved insults: I have not insulted you or implied an insult. The first sentence of the last post was just establishing how I was going to interpret that line of your post. I am not making a personal attack, just attempting to disbar an opinion which I think would be harmful. Which, unless I am mistaken, is part of how a discussion works.
Also, I have never claimed authority over the deck and it's contents. I have been trying to exercise some over the thread and it's contents, though. I have exactly 3 simple and loose rules that I ask participants read. Two are aimed at stopping backslide ideas like winning via X spells or by taking a control route (which helps differentiate the Crypt control deck from this one). The last one exists to keep the thread uncluttered of things which are not discussion of the deck and to help me improve the OP. You may noticed that recently I have not actually posted any "content". This is because at this point in the thread's maturity there is enough contribution that it is more helpful for me to try and keep the thread focused and it's informational section up to date.
At the moment, I am working on the sideboarding section, mostly using suggestions from the thread and from the tutorial video.
Finally, respect is a mutual relationship. When you entered the thread, the first thing you did was state that you believed that the threads should be merged. This was frustrating. I had just posted a page or so back about why this was a poor choice. I didn't even want to have to post that; merger discussion doesn't belong in this thread. It is a PM matter. The tone of my first response would have been a great deal more subdued if you hadn't entered the thread by breaking rule 3 directly after someone else did and I had to say the same thing to them.
I really don't enjoy doing this at all, but I am compelled due to how much I enjoy the deck and believe it has potential. Topics such as thread mergers only make cancerous posts and damage the integrity of the thread. I thank all the posters for not getting involved in the issue. It really should be in PM's...
If you wanted it to go to PMs then you should have PM'd in response to my post. I was simply agreeing with what others had already stated on the merger. Also, I find it strange that you would think to add a rule about people PMing you... don't see any other deck threads that need such rules from their creators... expecting lots of criticism? Maybe that ought to be telling you something.
Also, I agree with the majority comments about bloodghast and Rotting Rats. Rats DO unearth and are good hand disruption and bloodghast can't block, has no cycle or unearth, and overall doesn't really advance the goal of this deck. I think I'd sideboard out specters before I'd side out rats.
Standard : BR Zombies Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
the specters are great for hand disruption when you can't win in one shot. They also have evasion, which is quite handy. Very much a must have in an unearth FTW build imo.
I usually side out carabids, but then again I haven't had a chance to update my deck with specters.
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Standard : BR Zombies Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
the specters are great for hand disruption when you can't win in one shot. They also have evasion, which is quite handy. Very much a must have in an unearth FTW build imo.
Personally I think the Specters are one of the most under rated creatures in Standard. They are solid on their own, but in this deck they are stellar. Usually with them and Rats, I can get them to dump their hand, sqeeze 8-12 damage through, and set up for the win next turn. I'm much more the two turn win kinda guy though.
Today, Jacob Van Lunen chose this deck for Building on a Budget. Nothing quite like mothership visibility. Although for some reason he includes firespout in his list. I'm assuming it's just a brainfart.
yea, wondering what was up with that too? they label decks as extended or standard usually, this BoaB wasn't labeled as such. Maybe he's saying Firespout will be reprinted in the next set? wishful thinking...
Something I came up against: Bloodchief Ascension will really ruin your day with this deck. If he gets those 3 tokens on there, you're screwed. Maybe some boardwipe would assist here?
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[I was permabanned and all I got to show for it was .... well, nothing.]
Today, Jacob Van Lunen chose this deck for Building on a Budget. Nothing quite like mothership visibility. Although for some reason he includes firespout in his list. I'm assuming it's just a brainfart.
And He is also naming 4 swamps and 2 islands, instead of the opposite.
He also talks about missing shriekmaw, which means he knows firespout rotated... Every odd.
Does no one pre-edit these things?
Also Tome Scour > Traumatize. I don't care what the pro says, he's wrong.
BTW: How would a kicked Rite of Replication work on one of four unearhted Extractor?
I think its hard to choose between hexmage and into the roil. Into the roil draws a card and you could possibly just make them discard the card after by unearthing rats/specter... in this deck, I'd probably choose hexmage since its a black creature and a good first strike blocker. if they don't get the ascension.
The kicked Rite of Replication would make you an army of in play extractor demons. It wouldn't care that the unearthed one has gained haste. The removing from the game part of unearth only applies to the card it unearthed and its not a part of the card itself. (correct me if I'm wrong people) So yeah rite of replication on one of those guys would get you 5 permanent extractor demons. Thats ridiculous. I just have a hard time with rite of replication being a viable card for this deck since you could mill it, and might not have UUto use after you tap the crypt for mana (especially if you're using a fatestitcher to help out)
@The Budget discussion:
This deck isn't competitive on a budget. You need all the fetches for the crabs. Bottom line. He really goofed in his article. He wasn't kidding when he said he hasn't paid any attention to standard lately... guess what? shadowmoor rotated out. lol
Standard : BR Zombies Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
Today, Jacob Van Lunen chose this deck for Building on a Budget. Nothing quite like mothership visibility. Although for some reason he includes firespout in his list. I'm assuming it's just a brainfart.
What a disgusting build. "You can't play the specter w/o playing red..." well, did he even pay any attention to how much red the pros played? 4 Scalding Tarn and 1 Mountain. Terramorphics can make up for the Tarns, and you can still run a Mountain. Not to mention he doesn't even mention the Panoramas for Crabbing with your fixing.
@The Budget discussion:
This deck isn't competitive on a budget. You need all the fetches for the crabs. Bottom line. He really goofed in his article. He wasn't kidding when he said he hasn't paid any attention to standard lately... guess what? shadowmoor rotated out. lol
I also disagree. Face it, if you're playing Standard on a budget, you're deck's not going to be top notch. Period. The fetches are nice, but they're not essential to the decklist. 4 Terramorphic Expanse and 2 Grixis Panorama are 6 "fetches," compared to the Pros' 8-9. What else can you build on a budget for Standard? My mana base for budget is:
Personally I think the deck has lots of room for personal choice. I'm not running connoiseurs, but I am running dregscape zombies. Its just a personal choice.
My defense for the zombies is 3 fold. Its a body with 2 power to block. I really don't care if it ends up in the yard or not. Its a body that can buy me the time I need vs aggro. And in Denver, its always about the aggro. Second, its just another black guy in the yard to power the crypt. So if I do mill it into the yaed, I'm never unhappy to see that I've done so. Third it unearths for cheap. Its more damage and mill if I need it. Its just been working out great. I do think I want to try 1 taumatize main. 4 tomescour seems fine, but I personally have trouble getting the crabs in my hand. I'm thinking of dropping 1 discovery in favor of the traumatize. Also -1 stitcher +1 zombie giving me 2 stitchers and 3 dregscapes. I might try fitting 1 connoiseur in, just for the ability to unearth it, but I'm still testing.
How can this deck survive in this meta? Jund and Boros combine for something like %65+ of the meta, and it pretty much auto drops to them?
I think, at most, this will just make people sideboard an extra Jund Charm.
This deck can beat Jund just fine (Boros I have not seen, but I assume its a poor matchup. Jund Charm is a setback for sure, but the game is not unwinnable after one.
I think, at most, this will just make people sideboard an extra Jund Charm.
It'd damn better, I have something around 90% wins against Jund players without Charms. And that is counting the matchups where they might've sided Charm in but never got to cast it.
And even with charm it's still not bad.
Boros, however..
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
It'd damn better, I have something around 90% wins against Jund players without Charms. And that is counting the matchups where they might've sided Charm in but never got to cast it.
And even with charm it's still not bad.
Boros, however..
Really? What list are you running and how do you SB vs Jund, because i dont have that much even on Game 1. I MIGHT have 70/30 pre-side and then 50/50 at BEST post board
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Its been asked at least twice on every page in the thread. If your worried, board the Pithing Needle. You can also play around it with a little guile (Hardcast Extractor Demons off of crypt mana, hardcast Architects, etc.).
I know I'm in the minority here but I don't like the rats that much. Against Jund I would take them out because they dont speed up the combo, don't have unearth. Since Jund is already a good matchup, I don't need to disrupt their hand, just their mana. I usually wait til they tap out for something before comboing out anyway, so making them discard isn't huge.
I really like the spreading seas against them, still. It might have to change if enough people are actually going to play Borderland Ranger, who knows.
@SoulManipulation: I like the card but its just... narrow and weak... and its not a black creature. When would you bring it in? What do you take out for it?
I would sideboard 4 of them if there were any good counterspell decks around.
Rats do have unearth, though. They can block and come back for round 2.
Or if they could block.
This deck usually wins in one big sweep. Bloodghasts aren't very relevant.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
You usually drop your opponent from 15-20 to dead in a single swing. Ghasts won't have haste, can't be unearthed as reliably, and cost BB to cast. None of those things make them seem like a strong choice for the deck.
If you wanted it to go to PMs then you should have PM'd in response to my post. I was simply agreeing with what others had already stated on the merger. Also, I find it strange that you would think to add a rule about people PMing you... don't see any other deck threads that need such rules from their creators... expecting lots of criticism? Maybe that ought to be telling you something.
Also, I agree with the majority comments about bloodghast and Rotting Rats. Rats DO unearth and are good hand disruption and bloodghast can't block, has no cycle or unearth, and overall doesn't really advance the goal of this deck. I think I'd sideboard out specters before I'd side out rats.
Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
EDH : Active Decks
BUGrimgrin Tribal ZombiesBU | WGRUril, the MiststalkerWGR | XKozilek, Butcher of TruthX
My Trade List
Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
EDH : Active Decks
BUGrimgrin Tribal ZombiesBU | WGRUril, the MiststalkerWGR | XKozilek, Butcher of TruthX
My Trade List
Personally I think the Specters are one of the most under rated creatures in Standard. They are solid on their own, but in this deck they are stellar. Usually with them and Rats, I can get them to dump their hand, sqeeze 8-12 damage through, and set up for the win next turn. I'm much more the two turn win kinda guy though.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Today, Jacob Van Lunen chose this deck for Building on a Budget. Nothing quite like mothership visibility. Although for some reason he includes firespout in his list. I'm assuming it's just a brainfart.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/boab/66
(added to first post)
maybe Vampire hexmage
And the deck already have a Leviathan
BTW: How would a kicked Rite of Replication work on one of four unearhted Extractor?
And also, he calls Drowned Catacomb Darkwater Catacomb, from Odissey, in his non-budget list. I think he wasn't in a good day : (
And He is also naming 4 swamps and 2 islands, instead of the opposite.
He also talks about missing shriekmaw, which means he knows firespout rotated... Every odd.
Does no one pre-edit these things?
Also Tome Scour > Traumatize. I don't care what the pro says, he's wrong.
I think its hard to choose between hexmage and into the roil. Into the roil draws a card and you could possibly just make them discard the card after by unearthing rats/specter... in this deck, I'd probably choose hexmage since its a black creature and a good first strike blocker. if they don't get the ascension.
The kicked Rite of Replication would make you an army of in play extractor demons. It wouldn't care that the unearthed one has gained haste. The removing from the game part of unearth only applies to the card it unearthed and its not a part of the card itself. (correct me if I'm wrong people) So yeah rite of replication on one of those guys would get you 5 permanent extractor demons. Thats ridiculous. I just have a hard time with rite of replication being a viable card for this deck since you could mill it, and might not have UUto use after you tap the crypt for mana (especially if you're using a fatestitcher to help out)
@The Budget discussion:
This deck isn't competitive on a budget. You need all the fetches for the crabs. Bottom line. He really goofed in his article. He wasn't kidding when he said he hasn't paid any attention to standard lately... guess what? shadowmoor rotated out. lol
Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
EDH : Active Decks
BUGrimgrin Tribal ZombiesBU | WGRUril, the MiststalkerWGR | XKozilek, Butcher of TruthX
My Trade List
What a disgusting build. "You can't play the specter w/o playing red..." well, did he even pay any attention to how much red the pros played? 4 Scalding Tarn and 1 Mountain. Terramorphics can make up for the Tarns, and you can still run a Mountain. Not to mention he doesn't even mention the Panoramas for Crabbing with your fixing.
I also disagree. Face it, if you're playing Standard on a budget, you're deck's not going to be top notch. Period. The fetches are nice, but they're not essential to the decklist. 4 Terramorphic Expanse and 2 Grixis Panorama are 6 "fetches," compared to the Pros' 8-9. What else can you build on a budget for Standard? My mana base for budget is:
2 Grixis Panorama
5 Island
4 Jwar Isle Refuge
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Terramorphic Expanse
And for the 'list, I run Michael Jacobs -1 Ponder +1 Carabid
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
My defense for the zombies is 3 fold. Its a body with 2 power to block. I really don't care if it ends up in the yard or not. Its a body that can buy me the time I need vs aggro. And in Denver, its always about the aggro. Second, its just another black guy in the yard to power the crypt. So if I do mill it into the yaed, I'm never unhappy to see that I've done so. Third it unearths for cheap. Its more damage and mill if I need it. Its just been working out great. I do think I want to try 1 taumatize main. 4 tomescour seems fine, but I personally have trouble getting the crabs in my hand. I'm thinking of dropping 1 discovery in favor of the traumatize. Also -1 stitcher +1 zombie giving me 2 stitchers and 3 dregscapes. I might try fitting 1 connoiseur in, just for the ability to unearth it, but I'm still testing.
I think, at most, this will just make people sideboard an extra Jund Charm.
Thanks to Spiderboy4 for the sig!
This deck can beat Jund just fine (Boros I have not seen, but I assume its a poor matchup. Jund Charm is a setback for sure, but the game is not unwinnable after one.
It'd damn better, I have something around 90% wins against Jund players without Charms. And that is counting the matchups where they might've sided Charm in but never got to cast it.
And even with charm it's still not bad.
Boros, however..
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Really? What list are you running and how do you SB vs Jund, because i dont have that much even on Game 1. I MIGHT have 70/30 pre-side and then 50/50 at BEST post board