Yeah, I'm not looking to change the main plan. I run 4 Overgrown Tomb, 4 Golgari Guildgate, and 2 Breeding Pool to cast Specter. It's still plenty of black sources and as many as possible for Specter to come out. My full list is a few pages back, still need to get more testing in though.
Yeah I don't disagree Profani but I think my list fits the criteria for both Black Aggro and Black Devotion -- my maindeck has three nonpermanents. Aggro or not, my list goes harder on devotion than every control-based deck posted here. Plus, this thread is much more active and I've posted in both anyway.
Blah blah splash, blue sounds halfway decent for Rift (Nykthos can power the overload) and you can actually go a little harder on it if you want (not too hard though or you kill your devotion potential) because Specter can be cast off blue mana. The scrylands aren't worth much more than guildgates considering our potential raw card advantage, I just think it's a matter we don't have any big enough weaknesses to require a splash. Pithing Needle, Ratchet Bomb, Devour Flesh, Liliana are all potential ways to deal with our biggest "hosers" without leaving colors (and Liliana in particular wants Swamps), if not hit by Thoughtseize or Zombie. Probably lose more games not being able to play Merchant on curve or Shocking myself than I would having a slightly inferior answer to [God] or whatever. :/
It's just that you have a deck that's an aggro shell. A card that gives them all haste and intimidate is better than an enchantment that does nothing when you play it and waits around for a creature to die or Gary to drop. I'm not sure how the card is good against aggro when it's forcing you to lose life.
@the aggro list: Mogis Marauder breaks or makes that deck. I play that deck with a red splash, and the Marauder is the card that wins you games. Seriously, without it, you are basically playing a deck that is weaker than the mono-red version on every front. Your 2 drops are less aggressive, your 3 drops are less aggressive, and you play no 4 drop at al...
Lifebane Zombie and Mogis's Marauder are the cards that allow you to do things that RDW cannot do. You are using Gary as if he's a Fanatic of Mogis, except he costs one more and does less damage on the attack...
If you're chump blocking, losing 1 life is better than losing 2+ letting the attacker swing through. The lifeloss basically pays for itself over a few turns by giving you a replacement blocker to continue chumping. If you're trading, both offensively or defensively, eventually you take control of the board because the opponent can't replace their creatures as quickly. Hell, you can swarm through midrange creatures and not give a damn because whichever one dude they profitably block gets replaced and you're still squeezing damage through with two/three other guys. Dark Prophecy dominates combat.
Marauder? It lets you swing through once, when it ETB. (And not against Desecration Demon and friends at all.) Then it's just a Gray Ogre. Prophecy is working every turn and, just as importantly, it's providing triple the devotion.
That's not to say Marauder isn't worth trying out, indeed it's on my to-do list (I'm just not playing much now) and others already seem to like it a lot. Great! I just suggest you guys replace something other than Prophecy. Some tweaks I'd consider: Shred-Freak is the weakest card in my list, as far as I'm concerned. You may prefer fewer Whips, after all they are Legendary and high on the curve. You could drop one or two CA engines (3/3 or 2/3 split, in either direction).
Yes, I'm not quite as aggressive as RDW but I'm still faster than every other deck and RDW doesn't have multiple card advantage engines. Once RDW is out of gas, they lose. I don't run out of gas. Gary's upside over Fanatic is totally worth it, a drain is double the life swing of mere burn. The difference is backbreaking against other aggro decks. It's also semi-necessary against control to avoid killing yourself on your own CA engines (plus Thoughtseize). And I have way more devotion than Red can ever dream.
I ran a list similar to Mr. E's some weeks ago (-4 Tormented Hero, -4 Thrill-Kill, -2 Dark Prophesy, +3 Deathcult Rogue, +4 Mogis's Marauder, +3 Civic Saber), it didn't work. It folded hard to american superfriends, Selesnya and big red. Granted, those decks aren't around anymore and this build may be very good at racing MUD, but I rather prefer the removal suite's stability of being able to play control or aggro without loosing the reins instead of trying to race the racers.
Well yeah, you dropped a one-drop and two-drop for multiple three-drops. The equipment is cute but ultimately just not very strong on its own and again slows down the much quicker clock I have.
It's not about "racing the racers" though, it's about devotion. Dark Prophecy is the best devotion enabler in the format, a noncreature permanent with no colorless mana cost, but it's not worth playing a do-nothing card solely for devotion. Not only does the cheap creature suite enable Prophecy but on their own provide a faster source of added devotion. Nonpermanents don't add to devotion. The current removal we have available is slow against aggro? No problem, I got blockers for days. Excess removal is dead against control? Efficient beaters are always relevant.
hey. I like the idea of a more aggressive B devotion deck. I especially like the Thrill-Kill Assassin as it comes with a built in aggro/defense mode.
My two cents:
- Where is the Demon? You curve up to Gary but you omit Desecration Demon. Although more and more decks can handle him now, I think he's a must.
- 3 Nykthos? You can't really abuse Nykthos. Best case is you have a high devotion count and a lot cards to play - why? With Dark Prophecy your hand is full after a Supreme Verdict, but your devotion is on 3. You also play 8 cards that cost BBB - making colorless lands a liability.
- Mutavault? Although colorless lands are a liability, Mutavault is big. You should have a few in your 60. Play them as spells.
- 4 Dark Prophecy and 3 Underworld Connections seem harsh. I think in this kind of deck, Dark Prophecy is strictly better. Especially if you manage to further increase the creature count. You could add Connections to the SB against control, but then again - prophecy should be enough.
- 3 Whips could be right... you have to cope with your lifeloss.
- No Erebos, God of the Dead? You are aggressive, you don't like your enemy to gain life. I think 1 is the right number here. With 8 BBB spells and Shred Freak etc. he should also make a good beater.
Demon is just a bit high on the curve for my liking. I already have Whip and Merchant up there plus the three-spot full with my devotion-enabling CA engines. Too many more high-cost cards will clog up hands early, diminishing the aggro gameplan and all of the previous cards mentioned are more important. That said, I'm not entirely opposed to it.
Even 3 Nykthos is merely a concession to occasionally being unable to put out T3 Specters and Prophecies with four copies. ;[ Keep in mind I have seven noncreature permanents that provide devotion. Nykthos is what allows me to quickly repopulate the battlefield after sweeper and make blowout Merchant plays. Nykthos is far stronger than Mutavault's... being a bear. A bear you don't even want to swing with early because it turns removal and combat trades into cheap LD. You could add a couple and consider them spells, sure, but they add no devotion. Might as well play more removal at that point.
At least you acknowledge Dark Prophecy's power here but Underworld Connections is still important. It's a second source of noncreature devotion, i.e. it's difficult to remove, and effectively extra copies of Prophecy as far as a card advantage engine is concerned. I want more than four CA engines, I feel like 5-7 is the best number to shoot for. And they should be split between the two cards, as UC is more reliable against Anger of the Gods (exile != dies) and can be "turned off" if conserving life becomes a concern.
Erebos really isn't that good, that said one and only one copy is probably worth sticking in the 75 somewhere for the anti-lifegain utility. It's really only useful against other black decks to win Merchant wars (you still get burned out if you don't draw any though) and shut off Whip's lifelink. The only other notable source of lifegain in the format, Sphinx's Revelation, is not worth worrying about and Erebos is a worse source of CA (and devotion!) than both enchants.
Everyone that has played Black aggro have said Marauder is grades better and is needed. I'm not saying Prophecy is bad, but it's better in the sideboard because you're still giving aggro a free turn.
Everyone that has played Black aggro have said Marauder is grades better and is needed. I'm not saying Prophecy is bad, but it's better in the sideboard because you're still giving aggro a free turn.
I think Marauder seems like a 2 or 3-of, and prophecy (if you're monoblack) should be maindecked in the place of Underworld Connections. The argument that you should be playing Underworld AND Prophecy simply to fuel devotion seems incredibly flawed. Either/or. I could maybe see wanting to play 3 Prophecies and 2 Underworld or something (though that still seems heavy.) 7 is excessive.
Earlier I saw references to Liliana being good and Erebos being bad, and I have to say I disagree vehemently with both of those statements. I've mained 1 Erebos in every black deck I've played alongside 1 in the side. I can't see a single reason to put Liliana in the 75 anywhere.
The two enchants are both our best sources of card advantage (repeatable card draw, unlike Read the Bones for example) and best devotion enablers (noncreature, nonlegendary permanents with multiple colored symbols). There's no question you should be running both, the question is merely how many. (I say it's in the 5-7 range.) Marauder does not compete with them for slots, it competes with everything else.
Of course, ye playing slower lists may as well just jam four Connections. Prophecy needs dudes to fuel it, it's not worth running just as a +3 devotion card.
I'm just not going to get the point of putting SEVEN draw cards in an aggro deck. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but I'm still for putting a creature that gets your creatures through or another kill spell. I'd rather kill now than to kill later and risk losing earlier against other aggro.
The two enchants are both our best sources of card advantage (repeatable card draw, unlike Read the Bones for example) and best devotion enablers (noncreature, nonlegendary permanents with multiple colored symbols). There's no question you should be running both, the question is merely how many. (I say it's in the 5-7 range.) Marauder does not compete with them for slots, it competes with everything else.
Of course, ye playing slower lists may as well just jam four Connections. Prophecy needs dudes to fuel it, it's not worth running just as a +3 devotion card.
If you're running Prophecy, why do you need Connections? Even in the control variants I run, I only use 3 connections (+1 Erebos), and I've never felt the need to go to 4. The idea that you need to run 7 draw variants (including a very slow one) in an aggressive deck is odd. Those extra slots would likely be better served either as removal or disruption. It sounds like you are "forcing" devotion enablers simply to power 4 Merchants.
Do you guys thought about any splash? I've been splashing red for Dreadbores, Slaughter Game on the SB and Anger of the Gods running a total of 12 red mana sources (8 duals, 4 mountains).
Do you guys think this is viable and if it does, what color would you splash for ?
I think the best splash is green.
Red gives walker removal and discard, which you already have.
Blue gives what, pseudo sweeper in far\\away? Deck can perform well without sweeper already.
White needs WW for good cards.
Green gives:
- abrupt decay - kill them spheres and opposing connections
- golgari charm - again spheres, connections, but also useful against verdicts, masters (basically kills all masters+tokens on board for 2 mana), bidents, all red 2/1 guys, etc.
- gaze of granite - basically the best anti devotion card in meta full of devotion decks
- sylvan caryatid - helps a lot in problematic matchup vs. fast aggro decks, stops mutavaults, turn 3 demon should be good.
Looks it's in great position to beat monoblack while keeping good percentages against the general field.
You win connections wars, you stop mutavaults with caryatid, you have no dead removal cards like doom blade.
Matchup against red aggro should be better because you have better turn 2 plays.
Matchup against blue devotion should be better because golgari charm wrecks them.
The only big drawback is 1 mutavault vs. 4.
Reaper seems suspect, but should be easy to replace if she underperforms.
Well it's normal to side out at least 2 Masters for more countermagic/ bounce/ removal/ Aetherling.
Basing your entire game plan on sticking one good creature in a deck with allot of bad creatures against removal.deck doesn't seem like the best plan to me.
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Desecration demon is only good against decks with few creatures and gets tapped down/ removed more often then not. Underworld connections is too expensive for what it does and i find myself not wanting to cast it til turn 6-10 when the game should already be almost over. Saying either of those cards is better than a creature with guaranteed card removal is crazy. Its not better than either card but it has uses neither the demon or connections can help with.
My deck is more about controlling the opponent than being aggro. It really depends on the match up. I have never had good results with demon and underworld has killed me more than a few times. Fodder for pack rat is sometimes nice to have.
Oh and the fact you can toss anything allows you to get rid of problem cards early game like blood baron until they get 5 mana up. Ive even used it on the draw turn four to peel a BBoV they drew last turn out of the hand which won me the game. Didnt have lifebane or thoughtseize in hand at the time.
Although I don't care for the demon (really want a good etb creature here instead) you are not playing the deck right if you do not think underworld is the single best card in the deck for mirror, control, and midrange. The only time it feels bad is against rdws and it still offers devotion for gary.
I've been trying a white splash for merciless eviction and blood baron sb. Also since I don't like nor own desecration demon I was trying the gp winning list but with 4 pack rats and 2 of the devotion demon. Its probably too cute to be considered an upgrade but discarding the devotion demon to a pack rats only to lash of the whip it in turn 5-6 is sick. And the demon itself acts a bit like a black broodmate lategame as it is basically a one turn clock if you have any relevant amount of devotion.
I really like the idea of splashing G rather than the Red, Blue or White.
My thinking for Black Devotion is that you really want all of the permanents to remain Mono-B, but you want to take advantage of other items that give us value that B by itself lacks.
This strikes me as key with removal in three areas: sweepers, enchantment removal, artifact removal.
1) We lack a sweeper. R, G, and W all give us sweepers, but of varying capabilities and varying costs.
R gives Anger of the Gods, which I give a C right now because it only hits creatures, does damage (rather than destroying or exiling), and only does 3 damage.
W gives us Merciless Eviction, a very good card because it can sweep an entire group of permanents, and with the meta, exiling all creatures or all enchantments or all planeswalkers is very relevant. However, given our propensity for enchantments, it is not very discriminating. I give this a B.
G gives us Gaze of Granite. This card is really quite amazing, especially with Nykthos, Shrine of Nyx, since making X obscenely large is pretty easy. It doesn't exile, but it does hit every permanent, so if we time it correctly, it does huge work. It also does work quickly against aggro. I give this an A.
G also gives us Golgari Charm as a mini-sweeper, which for that ability alone I give a C, shading into a B depending on the meta. It is best against Mono-U and Mono-R Aggro and anything using Elvish Mystic to ramp.
2) We lack artifact and enchantment removal. U has nothing useful by itself. W has some enchantment removal, but nothing that hits both artifacts and enchantments and its best card for our color is still Eviction. R has artifact removal, but that's it. G has destruction for both in a variety of forms, as well as an exile spell, which is not irrelevant and also a 2G, which should not be hard to cast.
G gives us Golgari Charm which destroys enchantments. This is good, but not great, so this ability by itself I give a C.
G gives us Fade into Antiquity which can exile enchantments and artifacts. It is sorcery speed and 3cmc, but it is also a God Killer. I give it a B shading into an A.
G gives us Abrupt Decay. Instant speed, uncounterable, destroy any permanent CMC 3 or less. Yeah, it's good, but what do we want to hit with it? It does hit Spear, Bow, Hammer, D-Sphere, Underworld Connections, a host of annoying creatures, all the relevant artifacts, and two relevant planeswalkers, but it does not remove Gods, Bident, Whip. I give it a B.
G gives us Putrefy, but it would compete with Hero's Downfall for slots. There are plenty of relevant planeswalkers, but the main artifacts are God Weapons, which are also worth destroying. I give it a C shading into a B.
G also gives us an unexpected permanent: Vraska the Unseen. However, I think she is pretty much a so-so card in a deck that kills planeswalkers at Instant speed. I give her a C for the moment.
3) Additional Tech.
Golgari Charm, of the cards listed above, gives us regen for our creatures, which is pretty great. I think that all three abilities together make Charm a solid B overall.
That is my assessment of why Green is the best candidate as a support splash in a Black Devotion deck.
So what would a build look like? Maybe something like this...
Honestly, I am thinking that 5 colorless lands is greedy, but then again, I only absolutely need to hit B and with 20 permanents sporting Black, I probably want to hit Nykthos and Mutavault.
8 B/G lands seems adequate, since usually we are only running a small number of GB cards and nothing with more than a single G.
I settled on Gaze of Granite and Abrupt Decay for now because 1) GoG is a value sweeper in the right cost range, including BBG against Mono-U. 2) Abrupt Decay covers a lot of what we want Pharika's Cure for, though not Master of the Waves. But against fast aggro decks, it does the trick, and it hits a lot of enchantments and can't be countered in the control matches.
Sideboard notes: Fade into Antiquity crushes in the Mono-B mirror, Mono-U, etc.
Lifebane Zombie is still required versus Gr Devotion, GW Aggro, Wr Aggro, etc., but Specter is the better mainboard card.
Erebos #2 for any match where they run Sphinx's Revelation or heavy lifegain, including the mirror.
What this means is that I have chosen GoG main over Devour, 1 Abrupt over a 4th Hero's Downfall, and pushed Pharika's Cure out of the sideboard entirely, which could be a mistake since that card masters Master of the Waves and severely punishes incautious Mutavault activations. I have also slightly disturbed my mana base, but not much. I have not yet decided to add two forests, but then i absolutely have to cut back on Mykthos to 1 and maybe Mutavault to 2, which I don't like. Right now, we just need to hit G to make everything work, adding serious value to the deck.
I really like the idea of splashing G rather than the Red, Blue or White.
My thinking for Black Devotion is that you really want all of the permanents to remain Mono-B, but you want to take advantage of other items that give us value that B by itself lacks.
This strikes me as key with removal in three areas: sweepers, enchantment removal, artifact removal.
1) We lack a sweeper. R, G, and W all give us sweepers, but of varying capabilities and varying costs.
R gives Anger of the Gods, which I give a C right now because it only hits creatures, does damage (rather than destroying or exiling), and only does 3 damage.
W gives us Merciless Eviction, a very good card because it can sweep an entire group of permanents, and with the meta, exiling all creatures or all enchantments or all planeswalkers is very relevant. However, given our propensity for enchantments, it is not very discriminating. I give this a B.
G gives us Gaze of Granite. This card is really quite amazing, especially with Nykthos, Shrine of Nyx, since making X obscenely large is pretty easy. It doesn't exile, but it does hit every permanent, so if we time it correctly, it does huge work. It also does work quickly against aggro. I give this an A.
G also gives us Golgari Charm as a mini-sweeper, which for that ability alone I give a C, shading into a B depending on the meta. It is best against Mono-U and Mono-R Aggro and anything using Elvish Mystic to ramp.
2) We lack artifact and enchantment removal. U has nothing useful by itself. W has some enchantment removal, but nothing that hits both artifacts and enchantments and its best card for our color is still Eviction. R has artifact removal, but that's it. G has destruction for both in a variety of forms, as well as an exile spell, which is not irrelevant and also a 2G, which should not be hard to cast.
G gives us Golgari Charm which destroys enchantments. This is good, but not great, so this ability by itself I give a C.
G gives us Fade into Antiquity which can exile enchantments and artifacts. It is sorcery speed and 3cmc, but it is also a God Killer. I give it a B shading into an A.
G gives us Abrupt Decay. Instant speed, uncounterable, destroy any permanent CMC 3 or less. Yeah, it's good, but what do we want to hit with it? It does hit Spear, Bow, Hammer, D-Sphere, Underworld Connections, a host of annoying creatures, all the relevant artifacts, and two relevant planeswalkers, but it does not remove Gods, Bident, Whip. I give it a B.
G gives us Putrefy, but it would compete with Hero's Downfall since there are plenty of relevant planeswalkers, but not artifacts. I give it a D in Mono-B Devotion.
G also gives us an unexpected permanent: Vraska the Unseen. However, I think she is pretty much a so-so card in a deck that kills planeswalkers at Instant speed. I give her a C for the moment.
3) Additional Tech.
Golgari Charm, of the cards listed above, gives us regen for our creatures, which is pretty great. I think that all three abilities together make Charm a solid B overall.
That is my assessment of why Green is the best candidate as a support splash in a Black Devotion deck.
So what would a build look like? Maybe something like this...
Honestly, I am thinking that 5 colorless lands is greedy, but then again, I only absolutely need to hit B and with 20 permanents sporting Black, I probably want to hit Nykthos and Mutavault.
8 B/G lands seems adequate, since usually we are only running a small number of GB cards and nothing with more than a single G.
I settled on Gaze of Granite and Abrupt Decay for now because 1) GoG is a value sweeper in the right cost range, including BBG against Mono-U. 2) Abrupt Decay covers a lot of what we want Pharika's Cure for, though not Master of the Waves. But against fast aggro decks, it does the trick, and it hits a lot of enchantments and can't be countered in the control matches.
Sideboard notes: Fade into Antiquity crushes in the Mono-B mirror, Mono-U, etc.
Lifebane Zombie is still required versus Gr Devotion, GW Aggro, Wr Aggro, etc., but Specter is the better mainboard card.
Erebos #2 for any match where they run Sphinx's Revelation or heavy lifegain, including the mirror.
What this means is that I have chosen GoG main over Devour, 1 Abrupt over a 4th Hero's Downfall, and pushed Pharika's Cure out of the sideboard entirely, which could be a mistake since that card masters Master of the Waves and severely punishes incautious Mutavault activations. I have also slightly disturbed my mana base, but not much. I have not yet decided to add two forests, but then i absolutely have to cut back on Mykthos to 1 and maybe Mutavault to 2, which I don't like. Right now, we just need to hit G to make everything work, adding serious value to the deck.
I like this list a lot, but I just want to talk about a few things that caught my attention while reading it:
Gaze of Granite: for the longest time, I thought the casting cost was XBGG, which was why I had kind of wrote it off. Now that I see it's actually XBBG, I'm much more excited by how potent it can be. However, I'm not very excited about the prospect of nuking our own dudes. Having a Gaze of Granite for X = 3 will kill our own Underworld Connections, which is something we'll have to play around. I'm not sure how I feel with Gaze of Granite in the mainboard.
Fade into Antiquity is without a doubt a must play. It will crush the mirror, and it will crush any deck that relies on a God or Equipment.
Abrupt Decay is great too, I actually think running 2 of them mainboard is ideal.
Golgari Charm is a very solid sideboard card.
Reaper of the Wilds is a great Desecration Demon replacement, but the more G symbols we put in the deck, the more G mana I want to put in the deck.
I don't like the idea of only having 3 Mutavaults. That being said, this is what my Bg would look like, it's very similar to yours:
In my local meta, I'd rather have 4 Lifebane Zombies in my mainboard because of all the aggro, but I'd feel comfortable with this list. I have a few hours before my next class so I'm going to go load this up on Cockatrice and let you guys know how it goes.
I'd want to play at least one or two Putrefy in a green splash. It's extra removal and it gets rid of God weapons. I wouldn't mind playing a couple of Reaper of the Wilds either. It's ridiculously hard to get rid of, usually takes out another creature if it attacks/blocks, and it Scrys more often than you think.
@Thoras
Clearly in the sideboard the big difference is Duress vs. Pharika's Cure, which is a meta call. If you don't see much Control, drop Duress. I see a lot of it, still, so I run 3 Duress.
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@Thoras
Clearly in the sideboard the big difference is Duress vs. Pharika's Cure, which is a meta call. If you don't see much Control, drop Duress. I see a lot of it, still, so I run 3 Duress.
Definitely. The last two weeks I've 0-3'd against RDW and GW Aggro. I'm going to be mainboarding Pharika's Cure this week. That's how desperate I am.
@TBuzzsaw
If I went with Brian Braun-Duin's non-Devotion build (no Nykthos), I would run Reaper of the Wilds, but otherwise I don't think it is the right choice.
Good point on Putrefy, I completely overlooked the God weapons being artifacts! Still not sure exactly how you fit that in without too much 3 mana removal, though. I think it slows us down.
I'm thinking of going down to 3 Mutavault, 1 Nykthos. 5 is pretty darn greedy.
Added a couple Mutavaults and moved to 25 land to avoid hurting my manabase too much. I think it will be fine, but I'm not going to try for another colorless in there. 19 B sources, 21 B/U sources for Nightveil, 10 G sources should pretty consistently see 1BB/1BG by turn 3.
Wanting to go to 4 Underworld Connections because I think it will allow G to take serious advantage in the mirror, but I definitely don't want 4 against aggro.
Reaper of the Wilds looks like a solid option against aggro, and should be an easy beater to defend in midrange/control matchups. Interested to see how she measures up.
Ratchet Bomb I've changed my mind on, I think. It's such a bad topdeck later on and I have Gaze of Granite for a similar purpose which is an amazing topdeck in many situations. I plan to use Pithing Needle instead against GR Monsters.
Quoting myself here, but I think this is more or less what I'll be playing tomorrow, -1 Golgari Charm +1 Devour Flesh to deal with potentially increased Blood Baron counts.
I wouldn't say Putrefy really competes with Hero's Downfall directly since there's room to run both. I'm running a split but it could just as easily be 2/4 or so. I'm just not seeing a lot of planeswalkers and Decay deals with some of them. I'm not a fan of Doom Blade at all in a black heavy meta, and Decay fills the 2cmc removal slot nicely.
Gaze is a bit narrow to MD since it's extremely rare that you want to power out a huge one and wreck your own board. I only side it in when I want to hit cmc0-1-2 swarms.
Quoting myself here, but I think this is more or less what I'll be playing tomorrow, -1 Golgari Charm +1 Devour Flesh to deal with potentially increased Blood Baron counts.
I wouldn't say Putrefy really competes with Hero's Downfall directly since there's room to run both. I'm running a split but it could just as easily be 2/4 or so. I'm just not seeing a lot of planeswalkers and Decay deals with some of them. I'm not a fan of Doom Blade at all in a black heavy meta, and Decay fills the 2cmc removal slot nicely.
Gaze is a bit narrow to MD since it's extremely rare that you want to power out a huge one and wreck your own board. I only side it in when I want to hit cmc0-1-2 swarms.
After playing 4 quick rounds, I have to agree. I won all my matches, including a few RDW matches where I drew Gaze of Granite. X = 2 got me a few 3-for-1's. But I definitely think Gaze should be relegated to the sideboard, to bring some other cards that are all around better into the main. Maybe Putrefy, maybe Lifebane/Nightveil.
I played against this deck with mono black and a little red splash 2 weeks ago and It was a cakewalk to beat.
How is this better against mono black if I may ask? Nightveil Spectres absolutely destroyed this deck kind of deck when I played against it. Instead of 4 Spectres this deck plays Oozes and Reapers, that's just bad imo.
It also has less removal 7 instead of 10 and just 3 Thoughtseize instead of 4 and 3 Connections instead of 4, running a Pack Rat and a land less too.
It isn't "that" bad. The problem is the Caryatid really, and running 3 reapers is too many. The reason a green splash is better vs. monoblack is because it has ways of dealing with enchantments that black does not. That and, believe it or not, Reaper of the Wilds is quite good against black.
Made some play mistakes and in the final game of the night I got badly flooded. Still really enjoy the splash of blue and how it can catch my opponents off guard. Ened up 9th overall so barely missed top 8.
Blah blah splash, blue sounds halfway decent for Rift (Nykthos can power the overload) and you can actually go a little harder on it if you want (not too hard though or you kill your devotion potential) because Specter can be cast off blue mana. The scrylands aren't worth much more than guildgates considering our potential raw card advantage, I just think it's a matter we don't have any big enough weaknesses to require a splash. Pithing Needle, Ratchet Bomb, Devour Flesh, Liliana are all potential ways to deal with our biggest "hosers" without leaving colors (and Liliana in particular wants Swamps), if not hit by Thoughtseize or Zombie. Probably lose more games not being able to play Merchant on curve or Shocking myself than I would having a slightly inferior answer to [God] or whatever. :/
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If you're chump blocking, losing 1 life is better than losing 2+ letting the attacker swing through. The lifeloss basically pays for itself over a few turns by giving you a replacement blocker to continue chumping. If you're trading, both offensively or defensively, eventually you take control of the board because the opponent can't replace their creatures as quickly. Hell, you can swarm through midrange creatures and not give a damn because whichever one dude they profitably block gets replaced and you're still squeezing damage through with two/three other guys. Dark Prophecy dominates combat.
Marauder? It lets you swing through once, when it ETB. (And not against Desecration Demon and friends at all.) Then it's just a Gray Ogre. Prophecy is working every turn and, just as importantly, it's providing triple the devotion.
That's not to say Marauder isn't worth trying out, indeed it's on my to-do list (I'm just not playing much now) and others already seem to like it a lot. Great! I just suggest you guys replace something other than Prophecy. Some tweaks I'd consider: Shred-Freak is the weakest card in my list, as far as I'm concerned. You may prefer fewer Whips, after all they are Legendary and high on the curve. You could drop one or two CA engines (3/3 or 2/3 split, in either direction).
Yes, I'm not quite as aggressive as RDW but I'm still faster than every other deck and RDW doesn't have multiple card advantage engines. Once RDW is out of gas, they lose. I don't run out of gas. Gary's upside over Fanatic is totally worth it, a drain is double the life swing of mere burn. The difference is backbreaking against other aggro decks. It's also semi-necessary against control to avoid killing yourself on your own CA engines (plus Thoughtseize). And I have way more devotion than Red can ever dream.
Well yeah, you dropped a one-drop and two-drop for multiple three-drops. The equipment is cute but ultimately just not very strong on its own and again slows down the much quicker clock I have.
It's not about "racing the racers" though, it's about devotion. Dark Prophecy is the best devotion enabler in the format, a noncreature permanent with no colorless mana cost, but it's not worth playing a do-nothing card solely for devotion. Not only does the cheap creature suite enable Prophecy but on their own provide a faster source of added devotion. Nonpermanents don't add to devotion. The current removal we have available is slow against aggro? No problem, I got blockers for days. Excess removal is dead against control? Efficient beaters are always relevant.
Demon is just a bit high on the curve for my liking. I already have Whip and Merchant up there plus the three-spot full with my devotion-enabling CA engines. Too many more high-cost cards will clog up hands early, diminishing the aggro gameplan and all of the previous cards mentioned are more important. That said, I'm not entirely opposed to it.
Even 3 Nykthos is merely a concession to occasionally being unable to put out T3 Specters and Prophecies with four copies. ;[ Keep in mind I have seven noncreature permanents that provide devotion. Nykthos is what allows me to quickly repopulate the battlefield after sweeper and make blowout Merchant plays. Nykthos is far stronger than Mutavault's... being a bear. A bear you don't even want to swing with early because it turns removal and combat trades into cheap LD. You could add a couple and consider them spells, sure, but they add no devotion. Might as well play more removal at that point.
At least you acknowledge Dark Prophecy's power here but Underworld Connections is still important. It's a second source of noncreature devotion, i.e. it's difficult to remove, and effectively extra copies of Prophecy as far as a card advantage engine is concerned. I want more than four CA engines, I feel like 5-7 is the best number to shoot for. And they should be split between the two cards, as UC is more reliable against Anger of the Gods (exile != dies) and can be "turned off" if conserving life becomes a concern.
Erebos really isn't that good, that said one and only one copy is probably worth sticking in the 75 somewhere for the anti-lifegain utility. It's really only useful against other black decks to win Merchant wars (you still get burned out if you don't draw any though) and shut off Whip's lifelink. The only other notable source of lifegain in the format, Sphinx's Revelation, is not worth worrying about and Erebos is a worse source of CA (and devotion!) than both enchants.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
I think Marauder seems like a 2 or 3-of, and prophecy (if you're monoblack) should be maindecked in the place of Underworld Connections. The argument that you should be playing Underworld AND Prophecy simply to fuel devotion seems incredibly flawed. Either/or. I could maybe see wanting to play 3 Prophecies and 2 Underworld or something (though that still seems heavy.) 7 is excessive.
Earlier I saw references to Liliana being good and Erebos being bad, and I have to say I disagree vehemently with both of those statements. I've mained 1 Erebos in every black deck I've played alongside 1 in the side. I can't see a single reason to put Liliana in the 75 anywhere.
Of course, ye playing slower lists may as well just jam four Connections. Prophecy needs dudes to fuel it, it's not worth running just as a +3 devotion card.
I'm just not going to get the point of putting SEVEN draw cards in an aggro deck. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but I'm still for putting a creature that gets your creatures through or another kill spell. I'd rather kill now than to kill later and risk losing earlier against other aggro.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
If you're running Prophecy, why do you need Connections? Even in the control variants I run, I only use 3 connections (+1 Erebos), and I've never felt the need to go to 4. The idea that you need to run 7 draw variants (including a very slow one) in an aggressive deck is odd. Those extra slots would likely be better served either as removal or disruption. It sounds like you are "forcing" devotion enablers simply to power 4 Merchants.
I think the best splash is green.
Red gives walker removal and discard, which you already have.
Blue gives what, pseudo sweeper in far\\away? Deck can perform well without sweeper already.
White needs WW for good cards.
Green gives:
- abrupt decay - kill them spheres and opposing connections
- golgari charm - again spheres, connections, but also useful against verdicts, masters (basically kills all masters+tokens on board for 2 mana), bidents, all red 2/1 guys, etc.
- gaze of granite - basically the best anti devotion card in meta full of devotion decks
- sylvan caryatid - helps a lot in problematic matchup vs. fast aggro decks, stops mutavaults, turn 3 demon should be good.
The tradeoff is less mutavaults and no scry land.
4 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3 Lifebane Zombie
1 Pack Rat
3 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Spells [15]
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ultimate Price
3 Underworld Connections
2 Whip of Erebos
5 Forest
4 Golgari Guildgate
1 Mutavault
4 Overgrown Tomb
10 Swamp
3 Devour Flesh
1 Doom Blade
1 Duress
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Golgari Charm
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Pack Rat
1 Thoughtseize
1 Ultimate Price
Looks it's in great position to beat monoblack while keeping good percentages against the general field.
You win connections wars, you stop mutavaults with caryatid, you have no dead removal cards like doom blade.
Matchup against red aggro should be better because you have better turn 2 plays.
Matchup against blue devotion should be better because golgari charm wrecks them.
The only big drawback is 1 mutavault vs. 4.
Reaper seems suspect, but should be easy to replace if she underperforms.
If I'm not mistaken, monoblue sides out its Master of Waves against monoblack (and control).
NO! Master is there super wincon, they have no reason to ever side out Master.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
Ah, all the mono-blue I have faced have never sided it out. It is a answer me now or lose card.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
Basing your entire game plan on sticking one good creature in a deck with allot of bad creatures against removal.deck doesn't seem like the best plan to me.
Although I don't care for the demon (really want a good etb creature here instead) you are not playing the deck right if you do not think underworld is the single best card in the deck for mirror, control, and midrange. The only time it feels bad is against rdws and it still offers devotion for gary.
I've been trying a white splash for merciless eviction and blood baron sb. Also since I don't like nor own desecration demon I was trying the gp winning list but with 4 pack rats and 2 of the devotion demon. Its probably too cute to be considered an upgrade but discarding the devotion demon to a pack rats only to lash of the whip it in turn 5-6 is sick. And the demon itself acts a bit like a black broodmate lategame as it is basically a one turn clock if you have any relevant amount of devotion.
My thinking for Black Devotion is that you really want all of the permanents to remain Mono-B, but you want to take advantage of other items that give us value that B by itself lacks.
This strikes me as key with removal in three areas: sweepers, enchantment removal, artifact removal.
R gives Anger of the Gods, which I give a C right now because it only hits creatures, does damage (rather than destroying or exiling), and only does 3 damage.
W gives us Merciless Eviction, a very good card because it can sweep an entire group of permanents, and with the meta, exiling all creatures or all enchantments or all planeswalkers is very relevant. However, given our propensity for enchantments, it is not very discriminating. I give this a B.
G gives us Gaze of Granite. This card is really quite amazing, especially with Nykthos, Shrine of Nyx, since making X obscenely large is pretty easy. It doesn't exile, but it does hit every permanent, so if we time it correctly, it does huge work. It also does work quickly against aggro. I give this an A.
G also gives us Golgari Charm as a mini-sweeper, which for that ability alone I give a C, shading into a B depending on the meta. It is best against Mono-U and Mono-R Aggro and anything using Elvish Mystic to ramp.
2) We lack artifact and enchantment removal. U has nothing useful by itself. W has some enchantment removal, but nothing that hits both artifacts and enchantments and its best card for our color is still Eviction. R has artifact removal, but that's it. G has destruction for both in a variety of forms, as well as an exile spell, which is not irrelevant and also a 2G, which should not be hard to cast.
G gives us Golgari Charm which destroys enchantments. This is good, but not great, so this ability by itself I give a C.
G gives us Fade into Antiquity which can exile enchantments and artifacts. It is sorcery speed and 3cmc, but it is also a God Killer. I give it a B shading into an A.
G gives us Abrupt Decay. Instant speed, uncounterable, destroy any permanent CMC 3 or less. Yeah, it's good, but what do we want to hit with it? It does hit Spear, Bow, Hammer, D-Sphere, Underworld Connections, a host of annoying creatures, all the relevant artifacts, and two relevant planeswalkers, but it does not remove Gods, Bident, Whip. I give it a B.
G gives us Putrefy, but it would compete with Hero's Downfall for slots. There are plenty of relevant planeswalkers, but the main artifacts are God Weapons, which are also worth destroying. I give it a C shading into a B.
G also gives us an unexpected permanent: Vraska the Unseen. However, I think she is pretty much a so-so card in a deck that kills planeswalkers at Instant speed. I give her a C for the moment.
3) Additional Tech.
Golgari Charm, of the cards listed above, gives us regen for our creatures, which is pretty great. I think that all three abilities together make Charm a solid B overall.
That is my assessment of why Green is the best candidate as a support splash in a Black Devotion deck.
So what would a build look like? Maybe something like this...
4 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Nykthos, Shrine of Nyx
3 Mutavault
13 Swamps
Creatures 15
4 Desecration Demon
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2 Pack Rat
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Underworld Connections
2 Whip of Erebos
Sorcery 6
4 Thoughtseize
2 Gaze of Granite
Instant 8
2 Doom Blade
2 Ultimate Price
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Lifebane Zombie
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Hero's Downfall
3 Duress
2 Devour Flesh
1 Pithing Needle
2 Fade into Antiquity
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
Honestly, I am thinking that 5 colorless lands is greedy, but then again, I only absolutely need to hit B and with 20 permanents sporting Black, I probably want to hit Nykthos and Mutavault.
8 B/G lands seems adequate, since usually we are only running a small number of GB cards and nothing with more than a single G.
I settled on Gaze of Granite and Abrupt Decay for now because 1) GoG is a value sweeper in the right cost range, including BBG against Mono-U. 2) Abrupt Decay covers a lot of what we want Pharika's Cure for, though not Master of the Waves. But against fast aggro decks, it does the trick, and it hits a lot of enchantments and can't be countered in the control matches.
Sideboard notes:
Fade into Antiquity crushes in the Mono-B mirror, Mono-U, etc.
Lifebane Zombie is still required versus Gr Devotion, GW Aggro, Wr Aggro, etc., but Specter is the better mainboard card.
Erebos #2 for any match where they run Sphinx's Revelation or heavy lifegain, including the mirror.
Abrupt Decay #2 for aggro or control matches.
Devour Flesh for those matches where you need Edict effects.
Duress vs. Control
Pithing Needle and Hero's Downfall to stack the deck as tech.
What this means is that I have chosen GoG main over Devour, 1 Abrupt over a 4th Hero's Downfall, and pushed Pharika's Cure out of the sideboard entirely, which could be a mistake since that card masters Master of the Waves and severely punishes incautious Mutavault activations. I have also slightly disturbed my mana base, but not much. I have not yet decided to add two forests, but then i absolutely have to cut back on Mykthos to 1 and maybe Mutavault to 2, which I don't like. Right now, we just need to hit G to make everything work, adding serious value to the deck.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I like this list a lot, but I just want to talk about a few things that caught my attention while reading it:
Gaze of Granite: for the longest time, I thought the casting cost was XBGG, which was why I had kind of wrote it off. Now that I see it's actually XBBG, I'm much more excited by how potent it can be. However, I'm not very excited about the prospect of nuking our own dudes. Having a Gaze of Granite for X = 3 will kill our own Underworld Connections, which is something we'll have to play around. I'm not sure how I feel with Gaze of Granite in the mainboard.
Fade into Antiquity is without a doubt a must play. It will crush the mirror, and it will crush any deck that relies on a God or Equipment.
Abrupt Decay is great too, I actually think running 2 of them mainboard is ideal.
Golgari Charm is a very solid sideboard card.
Reaper of the Wilds is a great Desecration Demon replacement, but the more G symbols we put in the deck, the more G mana I want to put in the deck.
I don't like the idea of only having 3 Mutavaults. That being said, this is what my Bg would look like, it's very similar to yours:
2 Pack Rat
4 Desecration Demon
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Nightveil Specter
Instants (8)
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Doom Blade
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Underworld Connections
2 Whip of Erebos
Sorceries (6)
2 Gaze of Granite
4 Thoughtseize
Land (25)
4 Mutavault
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
12 Swamp
2 Devour Flesh
1 Dark Betrayal
2 Fade into Antiquity
4 Pharika's Cure
1 Pithing Needle
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Lifebane Zombie
In my local meta, I'd rather have 4 Lifebane Zombies in my mainboard because of all the aggro, but I'd feel comfortable with this list. I have a few hours before my next class so I'm going to go load this up on Cockatrice and let you guys know how it goes.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Clearly in the sideboard the big difference is Duress vs. Pharika's Cure, which is a meta call. If you don't see much Control, drop Duress. I see a lot of it, still, so I run 3 Duress.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Definitely. The last two weeks I've 0-3'd against RDW and GW Aggro. I'm going to be mainboarding Pharika's Cure this week. That's how desperate I am.
If I went with Brian Braun-Duin's non-Devotion build (no Nykthos), I would run Reaper of the Wilds, but otherwise I don't think it is the right choice.
Good point on Putrefy, I completely overlooked the God weapons being artifacts! Still not sure exactly how you fit that in without too much 3 mana removal, though. I think it slows us down.
I'm thinking of going down to 3 Mutavault, 1 Nykthos. 5 is pretty darn greedy.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Quoting myself here, but I think this is more or less what I'll be playing tomorrow, -1 Golgari Charm +1 Devour Flesh to deal with potentially increased Blood Baron counts.
I wouldn't say Putrefy really competes with Hero's Downfall directly since there's room to run both. I'm running a split but it could just as easily be 2/4 or so. I'm just not seeing a lot of planeswalkers and Decay deals with some of them. I'm not a fan of Doom Blade at all in a black heavy meta, and Decay fills the 2cmc removal slot nicely.
Gaze is a bit narrow to MD since it's extremely rare that you want to power out a huge one and wreck your own board. I only side it in when I want to hit cmc0-1-2 swarms.
After playing 4 quick rounds, I have to agree. I won all my matches, including a few RDW matches where I drew Gaze of Granite. X = 2 got me a few 3-for-1's. But I definitely think Gaze should be relegated to the sideboard, to bring some other cards that are all around better into the main. Maybe Putrefy, maybe Lifebane/Nightveil.
It isn't "that" bad. The problem is the Caryatid really, and running 3 reapers is too many. The reason a green splash is better vs. monoblack is because it has ways of dealing with enchantments that black does not. That and, believe it or not, Reaper of the Wilds is quite good against black.
Made some play mistakes and in the final game of the night I got badly flooded. Still really enjoy the splash of blue and how it can catch my opponents off guard. Ened up 9th overall so barely missed top 8.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack