Quote from TBuzzsawIt's just that you have a deck that's an aggro shell. A card that gives them all haste and intimidate is better than an enchantment that does nothing when you play it and waits around for a creature to die or Gary to drop. I'm not sure how the card is good against aggro when it's forcing you to lose life.
Quote from Profani@the aggro list: Mogis Marauder breaks or makes that deck. I play that deck with a red splash, and the Marauder is the card that wins you games. Seriously, without it, you are basically playing a deck that is weaker than the mono-red version on every front. Your 2 drops are less aggressive, your 3 drops are less aggressive, and you play no 4 drop at al...
Lifebane Zombie and Mogis's Marauder are the cards that allow you to do things that RDW cannot do. You are using Gary as if he's a Fanatic of Mogis, except he costs one more and does less damage on the attack...
Quote from StroggoiiI ran a list similar to Mr. E's some weeks ago (-4 Tormented Hero, -4 Thrill-Kill, -2 Dark Prophesy, +3 Deathcult Rogue, +4 Mogis's Marauder, +3 Civic Saber), it didn't work. It folded hard to american superfriends, Selesnya and big red. Granted, those decks aren't around anymore and this build may be very good at racing MUD, but I rather prefer the removal suite's stability of being able to play control or aggro without loosing the reins instead of trying to race the racers.
Quote from emuhellhey. I like the idea of a more aggressive B devotion deck. I especially like the Thrill-Kill Assassin as it comes with a built in aggro/defense mode.
My two cents:
- Where is the Demon? You curve up to Gary but you omit Desecration Demon. Although more and more decks can handle him now, I think he's a must.
- 3 Nykthos? You can't really abuse Nykthos. Best case is you have a high devotion count and a lot cards to play - why? With Dark Prophecy your hand is full after a Supreme Verdict, but your devotion is on 3. You also play 8 cards that cost BBB - making colorless lands a liability.
- Mutavault? Although colorless lands are a liability, Mutavault is big. You should have a few in your 60. Play them as spells.
- 4 Dark Prophecy and 3 Underworld Connections seem harsh. I think in this kind of deck, Dark Prophecy is strictly better. Especially if you manage to further increase the creature count. You could add Connections to the SB against control, but then again - prophecy should be enough.
- 3 Whips could be right... you have to cope with your lifeloss.
- No Erebos, God of the Dead? You are aggressive, you don't like your enemy to gain life. I think 1 is the right number here. With 8 BBB spells and Shred Freak etc. he should also make a good beater.
Quote from TBuzzsawEveryone that has played Black aggro have said Marauder is grades better and is needed. I'm not saying Prophecy is bad, but it's better in the sideboard because you're still giving aggro a free turn.
Quote from Mr.EThe two enchants are both our best sources of card advantage (repeatable card draw, unlike Read the Bones for example) and best devotion enablers (noncreature, nonlegendary permanents with multiple colored symbols). There's no question you should be running both, the question is merely how many. (I say it's in the 5-7 range.) Marauder does not compete with them for slots, it competes with everything else.
Of course, ye playing slower lists may as well just jam four Connections. Prophecy needs dudes to fuel it, it's not worth running just as a +3 devotion card.
Quote from grixisDo you guys thought about any splash? I've been splashing red for Dreadbores, Slaughter Game on the SB and Anger of the Gods running a total of 12 red mana sources (8 duals, 4 mountains).
Do you guys think this is viable and if it does, what color would you splash for ?
Quote from ExcalHow does Golgari Charm wreck monoblue?
If I'm not mistaken, monoblue sides out its Master of Waves against monoblack (and control).
Quote from ExcalI suppose you and Sam Black think differently then.
Quote from Z3RODesecration demon is only good against decks with few creatures and gets tapped down/ removed more often then not. Underworld connections is too expensive for what it does and i find myself not wanting to cast it til turn 6-10 when the game should already be almost over. Saying either of those cards is better than a creature with guaranteed card removal is crazy. Its not better than either card but it has uses neither the demon or connections can help with.
My deck is more about controlling the opponent than being aggro. It really depends on the match up. I have never had good results with demon and underworld has killed me more than a few times. Fodder for pack rat is sometimes nice to have.
Oh and the fact you can toss anything allows you to get rid of problem cards early game like blood baron until they get 5 mana up. Ive even used it on the draw turn four to peel a BBoV they drew last turn out of the hand which won me the game. Didnt have lifebane or thoughtseize in hand at the time.
Quote from redtwisterI really like the idea of splashing G rather than the Red, Blue or White.
My thinking for Black Devotion is that you really want all of the permanents to remain Mono-B, but you want to take advantage of other items that give us value that B by itself lacks.
This strikes me as key with removal in three areas: sweepers, enchantment removal, artifact removal.
1) We lack a sweeper. R, G, and W all give us sweepers, but of varying capabilities and varying costs.
R gives Anger of the Gods, which I give a C right now because it only hits creatures, does damage (rather than destroying or exiling), and only does 3 damage.
W gives us Merciless Eviction, a very good card because it can sweep an entire group of permanents, and with the meta, exiling all creatures or all enchantments or all planeswalkers is very relevant. However, given our propensity for enchantments, it is not very discriminating. I give this a B.
G gives us Gaze of Granite. This card is really quite amazing, especially with Nykthos, Shrine of Nyx, since making X obscenely large is pretty easy. It doesn't exile, but it does hit every permanent, so if we time it correctly, it does huge work. It also does work quickly against aggro. I give this an A.
G also gives us Golgari Charm as a mini-sweeper, which for that ability alone I give a C, shading into a B depending on the meta. It is best against Mono-U and Mono-R Aggro and anything using Elvish Mystic to ramp.
2) We lack artifact and enchantment removal. U has nothing useful by itself. W has some enchantment removal, but nothing that hits both artifacts and enchantments and its best card for our color is still Eviction. R has artifact removal, but that's it. G has destruction for both in a variety of forms, as well as an exile spell, which is not irrelevant and also a 2G, which should not be hard to cast.
G gives us Golgari Charm which destroys enchantments. This is good, but not great, so this ability by itself I give a C.
G gives us Fade into Antiquity which can exile enchantments and artifacts. It is sorcery speed and 3cmc, but it is also a God Killer. I give it a B shading into an A.
G gives us Abrupt Decay. Instant speed, uncounterable, destroy any permanent CMC 3 or less. Yeah, it's good, but what do we want to hit with it? It does hit Spear, Bow, Hammer, D-Sphere, Underworld Connections, a host of annoying creatures, all the relevant artifacts, and two relevant planeswalkers, but it does not remove Gods, Bident, Whip. I give it a B.
G gives us Putrefy, but it would compete with Hero's Downfall since there are plenty of relevant planeswalkers, but not artifacts. I give it a D in Mono-B Devotion.
G also gives us an unexpected permanent: Vraska the Unseen. However, I think she is pretty much a so-so card in a deck that kills planeswalkers at Instant speed. I give her a C for the moment.
3) Additional Tech.
Golgari Charm, of the cards listed above, gives us regen for our creatures, which is pretty great. I think that all three abilities together make Charm a solid B overall.
That is my assessment of why Green is the best candidate as a support splash in a Black Devotion deck.
So what would a build look like? Maybe something like this...
Thoras's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Lands 264 Golgari Guildgate4 Overgrown Tomb2 Nykthos, Shrine of Nyx3 Mutavault13 SwampsCreatures 154 Desecration Demon4 Nightveil Specter4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel2 Pack Rat1 Erebos, God of the DeadEnchantments 53 Underworld Connections2 Whip of ErebosSorcery 64 Thoughtseize2 Gaze of GraniteInstant 82 Doom Blade2 Ultimate Price3 Hero's Downfall1 Abrupt DecaySideboard4 Lifebane Zombie1 Abrupt Decay1 Hero's Downfall3 Duress2 Devour Flesh1 Pithing Needle2 Fade into Antiquity1 Erebos, God of the Dead
Honestly, I am thinking that 5 colorless lands is greedy, but then again, I only absolutely need to hit B and with 20 permanents sporting Black, I probably want to hit Nykthos and Mutavault.
8 B/G lands seems adequate, since usually we are only running a small number of GB cards and nothing with more than a single G.
I settled on Gaze of Granite and Abrupt Decay for now because 1) GoG is a value sweeper in the right cost range, including BBG against Mono-U. 2) Abrupt Decay covers a lot of what we want Pharika's Cure for, though not Master of the Waves. But against fast aggro decks, it does the trick, and it hits a lot of enchantments and can't be countered in the control matches.
Fade into Antiquity crushes in the Mono-B mirror, Mono-U, etc.
Lifebane Zombie is still required versus Gr Devotion, GW Aggro, Wr Aggro, etc., but Specter is the better mainboard card.
Erebos #2 for any match where they run Sphinx's Revelation or heavy lifegain, including the mirror.
Abrupt Decay #2 for aggro or control matches.
Devour Flesh for those matches where you need Edict effects.
Duress vs. Control
Pithing Needle and Hero's Downfall to stack the deck as tech.
What this means is that I have chosen GoG main over Devour, 1 Abrupt over a 4th Hero's Downfall, and pushed Pharika's Cure out of the sideboard entirely, which could be a mistake since that card masters Master of the Waves and severely punishes incautious Mutavault activations. I have also slightly disturbed my mana base, but not much. I have not yet decided to add two forests, but then i absolutely have to cut back on Mykthos to 1 and maybe Mutavault to 2, which I don't like. Right now, we just need to hit G to make everything work, adding serious value to the deck.
Quote from redtwister@Thoras
Clearly in the sideboard the big difference is Duress vs. Pharika's Cure, which is a meta call. If you don't see much Control, drop Duress. I see a lot of it, still, so I run 3 Duress.
Quote from Psiven
Anyway, here's the latest list I'm testing this week:
"BG Devotion"Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Lands (25):11 Swamp4 Overgrown Tomb4 Golgari Guildgate2 Breeding Pool1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx3 MutavaultCreatures (17):2 Pack Rat3 Lifebane Zombie3 Nightveil Specter4 Desecration Demon1 Erebos, God of the Dead4 Gray Merchant of AsphodelRemoval (13):4 Thoughtseize3 Abrupt Decay3 Putrefy3 Hero's DownfallOther (5):3 Underworld Connections2 Whip of ErebosSideboard (15):3 Golgari Charm2 Fade into Antiquity2 Reaper of the Wilds2 Devour Flesh2 Gaze of Granite2 Pithing Needle1 Duress1 Underworld Connections
Added a couple Mutavaults and moved to 25 land to avoid hurting my manabase too much. I think it will be fine, but I'm not going to try for another colorless in there. 19 B sources, 21 B/U sources for Nightveil, 10 G sources should pretty consistently see 1BB/1BG by turn 3.
Wanting to go to 4 Underworld Connections because I think it will allow G to take serious advantage in the mirror, but I definitely don't want 4 against aggro.
Reaper of the Wilds looks like a solid option against aggro, and should be an easy beater to defend in midrange/control matchups. Interested to see how she measures up.
Ratchet Bomb I've changed my mind on, I think. It's such a bad topdeck later on and I have Gaze of Granite for a similar purpose which is an amazing topdeck in many situations. I plan to use Pithing Needle instead against GR Monsters.
Quote from PsivenQuoting myself here, but I think this is more or less what I'll be playing tomorrow, -1 Golgari Charm +1 Devour Flesh to deal with potentially increased Blood Baron counts.
I wouldn't say Putrefy really competes with Hero's Downfall directly since there's room to run both. I'm running a split but it could just as easily be 2/4 or so. I'm just not seeing a lot of planeswalkers and Decay deals with some of them. I'm not a fan of Doom Blade at all in a black heavy meta, and Decay fills the 2cmc removal slot nicely.
Gaze is a bit narrow to MD since it's extremely rare that you want to power out a huge one and wreck your own board. I only side it in when I want to hit cmc0-1-2 swarms.
Quote from quizzlemanizzleI played against this deck with mono black and a little red splash 2 weeks ago and It was a cakewalk to beat.
How is this better against mono black if I may ask? Nightveil Spectres absolutely destroyed this deck kind of deck when I played against it. Instead of 4 Spectres this deck plays Oozes and Reapers, that's just bad imo.
It also has less removal 7 instead of 10 and just 3 Thoughtseize instead of 4 and 3 Connections instead of 4, running a Pack Rat and a land less too.