basically just a splash for abrupt decay MB and golgari charm out of the board. Mistcutter hydra is also a board possiblity for the mono blue matchup.
I believe that this makes the deck better against decks like mono blue, the mirror, and esper control, but probably worse against stuff like RDW and WW variants. Abrupt decay also doesn't seem like it would perform very well against a deck like GR devotion/monsters. Still, this could be a good thing based on how the online meta is shaping up and the fact that mono black, mono blue, and esper all pretty well dominated the GP top 8.
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Hello, I have been working with B/G since the release of theros and I have made some good result with my The Rock deck (top 16 at my states championship, most of the time top 4 at my LGS fmn's)I want to try something new and work with dévotion. This is the list I'll be playing this friday.
Hello, I have been working with B/G since the release of theros and I have made some good result with my The Rock deck (top 16 at my states championship, most of the time top 4 at my LGS fmn's)I want to try something new and work with dévotion. This is the list I'll be playing this friday.
IDK every time I've seen a rock, junk, or jund deck drop Reaper against me it's never done anything. Half the time it get's eaten by a Lifebane Zombie before they get to play it anyways (if I see Reaper and/or Caryatid game 1 I'm bringing them in Game 2 regardless). The card has just seemed super underwhelming every time I've seen it played. Because if you play it turn 3/4 it's susceptible to removal still, if you are waiting till turns 5+ to play it with hexproof mana open I'm dropping demons and Gary's at this point and am going to win of straight synergy and mad beats in the air. I feel if you are going for the green splash it's best to use strictly Bg spells to bolster our removal quality instead of watering down our permanents, and I feel this way splashing any color.
At this point I don't think we even really need enchantment hate, sure it's okay against the mirror, but we should already be bringing in pithing needle and erebos, as well as possibly duress if you feel the need for it (let's be honest here, duressing out a connections, a dark betrayal, a whip, or even a thoughtseize to protect your own spells is rather worthwhile). I really don't think we need to me metagaming against our own deck because metagaming the mirror is pretty silly (unless like over 50% of the field is going to be Mono B devotion) and unless the cards we are splashing make other matchups infinitely better there's no need for it.
I do however really like abrupt decay in the format and that is something that might be worth looking into for dealing mainly with Detention Sphere (as Esper players in my shop have started telling me that they board out verdicts and just board in Dspheres because they are more value to them as it deals with pack rat forever, prevents whipping back Gary's, etc...). But at the same time I don't feel we need help with the control matchup at all and the only thorn in our side at this point is BBoV.
I also feel the one thing the green splashes have been missing out on is Deathrite Shaman. His synergy with pack rat is sick, turning off opposing whip targets, slowly grinding away controls life, and can stabilize us against aggro by letting us gain 2 life back from the creatures we've killed is pretty strong. At worst he eats a burn spell or a jackyl pup for us against aggro, or a removal spell against esper. He also adds 1 Devotion. Maybe I'm overrating the card just a little from playing too much modern and I know we don't have fetches to make for crazy turn 2/3 plays, but he is still good value and gives us something to do on turn one that isn't thoughtseize/duress.
For now though I still think Mono Black is the way to go, and I really really hate running guildgates to force a splash color.
Reaper seems really only good against RDW/Rakdos Aggro and Control. She would be okay in the mirror match but there are much more powerful things to bring instead; if I was mostly worried about that I'd have more Erebos in there instead. So not the broadest card for the sideboard, but since our worst matchups are RDW/Rakdos I will give it a shot.
I'm not sure how to articulate my feelings on Deathrite Shaman. The land ability is basically dead, so it's not useful at all for the first few turns if you do play it t1. The life gain could be relevant but it costs mana you probably need to keep spending on removal, or dropping a much bigger life drain. The damage is nice since it feeds on cards that will be there in any matchup, but that seems slow when you are trying to kill all their stuff and swing with something bigger.
What are you using Pithing Needle on in the mirror?
Pack Rat, Erebos, Whip, Swamp, and Mutavault are all valid targets to name in the mirror and depending on their line of play and game plan can lead to a huge blowout.
Pack Rat, Erebos, Whip, Swamp, and Mutavault are all valid targets to name in the mirror and depending on their line of play and game plan can lead to a huge blowout.
i agree with this and with your sentiment that mono black is the way to go. I'm not sure how adding green helps against the worst matchups. RDW is the roughest and splashing answers in another color just makes it more inconsistent i believe.
also, in a field of mirror matches, mono u and esper, why would u stray away from the deck that beats them all (mono black)? Why not just tweak your sideboard/mainboard for the matchup?
Pack Rat, Erebos, Whip, Swamp, and Mutavault are all valid targets to name in the mirror and depending on their line of play and game plan can lead to a huge blowout.
I'm not a huge fan of pithing needle in the mirror since it shuts down your own powerful cards as well. There are times where it might get you out of a jam, but still screw you down the line as well.
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Except for the fact that you are knowingly playing the card and can plan around it. It's one of those things that require a lot of thought on your part, and while you are correct that it can screw you yourself, I think it's still worth the potential of putting yourself ahead. It's one of those plays that's high risk high reward and requires next leveling your opponent. It's also one of those things where it is worth considering to play it depending on if you're on the play or draw and what you want your game plan to be for postboard games and what you assume your opponent is going to do.
pithing needle has been at it's best for me as an aggressive answer to garruk and elspeth. also against esper where they run too many walkers to completely rely on hero's downfall.
I really think the best way to break the mirror is to splash green for stuff like abrupt decay and putrefy. Having abrupt decay also greatly helps the deck's esper matchup. However this change leaves the deck weaker to stuff like GR devotion/monsters and slightly weaker to mono blue, although the fact that abrupt decay can't be countered is somewhat relevant.
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pithing needle has been at it's best for me as an aggressive answer to garruk and elspeth. also against esper where they run too many walkers to completely rely on hero's downfall.
I really think the best way to break the mirror is to splash green for stuff like abrupt decay and putrefy. Having abrupt decay also greatly helps the deck's esper matchup. However this change leaves the deck weaker to stuff like GR devotion/monsters and slightly weaker to mono blue, although the fact that abrupt decay can't be countered is somewhat relevant.
Not to forget golgari charm is also very good against mono blue devotion. -1/-1 take care of master of wave and his token + take care of the best card they have against mono black, the bident
hey guys. not entirely sure on what to do with my sideboard for monoblack (basicly BBD list with a liliana i place of a underworld connections) or B/g here's. the B/g list
hey guys. not entirely sure on what to do with my sideboard for monoblack (basicly BBD list with a liliana i place of a underworld connections) or B/g here's. the B/g list
Green splash versus mono-black, frankly I'd consider the mono deck to be at the advantage. So the former answers enchants, whoop-de-doo. One enchant > one answer. Unless you get blown out by a GoG 4-for-1 or something, Golgari Charm or whatever trading with a Connections is value-neutral except the latter is good by itself and the former only an an answer to it. Mono will thus have better draw and more devotion, probably the biggest difference-maker in the matchup.
Fade into Antiquity is my splash card of choice if you feel the need to go green. The Enchants you want to answer most, Gods, don't die to the other enchant removal spells. Especially relevant for Erebos in mirrors. 3cc Sorcery is kinda lame but hey, nothing else can do what it does. Suck it up. There are still other relevant non-indestructible enchants, so you can still pack Golgari Charms and stuff if you want too, but Fade should probably be present in some capacity. Not a fan of Gaze, being symmetrical and thus destroying our own devotion in addition to being too slow as a solution to aggro.
DRS, Serj? Good call. I still wish its ramping capabilities weren't a Modern-only thing but oh well. I don't think Guildgates are that big a deal if you want to splash green/red, though, considering our superior card draw capability mitigates the usefulness of scrying.
I am sorry but can we finally stop discussing mono black aggro decks here?
Dark Prophecy is an absoltely fringe card in black devotion and at best a 1of. Even in aggro it is pretty ****ty and questionable because it can't give you cards when you need it. The only reason Dark Prophecy would be played is because it offers 3 devotion.
I am sorry but can we finally stop discussing mono black control decks here? Because I'm pretty sure jamming 10+ removal spells that provide zero devotion because they aren't permanents makes you less devoted than aggro lists.
I'm just not going to get the point of putting SEVEN draw cards in an aggro deck. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but I'm still for putting a creature that gets your creatures through or another kill spell. I'd rather kill now than to kill later and risk losing earlier against other aggro.
If you're running Prophecy, why do you need Connections? Even in the control variants I run, I only use 3 connections (+1 Erebos), and I've never felt the need to go to 4. The idea that you need to run 7 draw variants (including a very slow one) in an aggressive deck is odd. Those extra slots would likely be better served either as removal or disruption. It sounds like you are "forcing" devotion enablers simply to power 4 Merchants.
*shrug* Maybe I'm too much of a control freak to grab my CA wherever I can. I still think you're selling especially Prophecy short, though. Since TBuzzsaw seems hellbent on comparing it to Marauder, it's not so dissimilar as an aggro play. While Marauder lets you swing in safely, Prophecy lets you swing in because you don't actually care if your creatures die -- they replace themselves. But where Marauder is a one-devotion Gray Ogre after that, Prophecy is a three-devotion noncreature permanent. Where Marauder only triggers once upon ETB, Prophecy continues to work every turn it's still on the field. Where Marauder is a weak defensive play, albeit can itself block unlike Prophecy, Prophecy makes all your other blockers replace themselves for the modest price of 1 life. Marauder is also worthless against control decks in general and other black decks.
You don't force as much immediate damage through, sure, but our long game is much better than any other aggro deck out there. It's not a big deal if you can't swing past that T2 Ash Zealot because if me and my RDW opponent just have a staring contest for a while, unable to swing into each other's board, I'm probably going to win it. I'll put more bodies down faster than they will with my CA. Gary "trades" favorably with Fanatic if we both have 'em, I'm more likely to see mine due to my draw engines, and I'm more devoted to my color. I will chump Polukranos all day and night until Green is forced to stop swinging and start blocking or I can burn 'em out, etc.
I don't think our removal or our disruption right now is in a good enough spot to warrant taking away space from other cards. Hell, I already have Lifebane Zombie and Thoughtseize in my 75, what else is even playable on the "disruption" front? (Don't you dare say Disciple of Phenax.) Removal being weak is precisely the reason in the first place I chose an aggro route for my devotion list, because where our removal is weak you can never go wrong with just throwing bodies onto the battlefield to trade in combat.
Maybe you're both right, I'm leaning too heavily on the CA engines. I just don't think there's much better playable as far as pushing the aggro envelope is concerned. I'm already playing both 2-power one-drops available and the two most aggressive two-drops, the most important parts of the curve for aggro. The choice between Marauder or Prophecy in the three spot (though I maintain these two cards are not competing for slots against each other) is relatively unimportant as far as determining the speed of the deck. Plus, the devotion aspect of this deck is still very much important and the Enchants are obviously superior providers to everything in that regard. Devotion powers more than Gary.
I'm thinking of going down to 3 Mutavault, 1 Nykthos. 5 is pretty darn greedy.
I have twice as many triple-black cards and even four is borderline playable for me. You should easily be able to get away with five, with only Specter in your list, but your mileage may vary.
I would avoid the Bg list in favor of Bw or Bu until we have the golgari scryland. Scry is very useful so if we're diluting our manabase for two colors, let's at least get something out of it.
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Green splash versus mono-black, frankly I'd consider the mono deck to be at the advantage. So the former answers enchants, whoop-de-doo. One enchant > one answer. Unless you get blown out by a GoG 4-for-1 or something, Golgari Charm or whatever trading with a Connections is value-neutral except the latter is good by itself and the former only an an answer to it. Mono will thus have better draw and more devotion, probably the biggest difference-maker in the matchup.
Having played with and against the green splash several times, I can tell you that the mono black deck is certainly not in the advantage, at least post-board. Granted, I don't think that it is a sizable increase, but you're probably somewhere between a 45-55 or 40-60 underdog. This is assuming that you're playing against an actual devotion deck with splash and not some Rock deck that has Caryatids (In which case you would have the advantage.)
They will bring in both Abrupt Decay and Charm/Putrefy against you. Black vs. Black tends to be about attrition, and unless one player blows the other out quickly it often comes down to who is able to get Connections or the Whip engine running earlier and more often. If you can't out-aggro them, they should (more often than not) win the long game simply because they can control your card advantage and you can't control theirs.
Hell, the last match I played was with Bu vs. Bg. After splitting G1 and G2, I was on the play for G3, and it went like this:
My T3: Underworld Connections (gets hit with Abrupt Decay EoT)
His T3: Underworld Connections
...and I think you can figure out where it went from there.
Now that doesn't necessarily mean that Gb is what you should be playing since those cards don't always help as much in other matchups. There are exceptions to this though where Golgari Charm (In particular) out of the board tends to be great.
*shrug* Maybe I'm too much of a control freak to grab my CA wherever I can. I still think you're selling especially Prophecy short, though. Since TBuzzsaw seems hellbent on comparing it to Marauder, it's not so dissimilar as an aggro play. While Marauder lets you swing in safely, Prophecy lets you swing in because you don't actually care if your creatures die -- they replace themselves. But where Marauder is a one-devotion Gray Ogre after that, Prophecy is a three-devotion noncreature permanent. Where Marauder only triggers once upon ETB, Prophecy continues to work every turn it's still on the field. Where Marauder is a weak defensive play, albeit can itself block unlike Prophecy, Prophecy makes all your other blockers replace themselves for the modest price of 1 life. Marauder is also worthless against control decks in general and other black decks.
You don't force as much immediate damage through, sure, but our long game is much better than any other aggro deck out there. It's not a big deal if you can't swing past that T2 Ash Zealot because if me and my RDW opponent just have a staring contest for a while, unable to swing into each other's board, I'm probably going to win it. I'll put more bodies down faster than they will with my CA. Gary "trades" favorably with Fanatic if we both have 'em, I'm more likely to see mine due to my draw engines, and I'm more devoted to my color. I will chump Polukranos all day and night until Green is forced to stop swinging and start blocking or I can burn 'em out, etc.
I don't think our removal or our disruption right now is in a good enough spot to warrant taking away space from other cards. Hell, I already have Lifebane Zombie and Thoughtseize in my 75, what else is even playable on the "disruption" front? (Don't you dare say Disciple of Phenax.) Removal being weak is precisely the reason in the first place I chose an aggro route for my devotion list, because where our removal is weak you can never go wrong with just throwing bodies onto the battlefield to trade in combat.
Maybe you're both right, I'm leaning too heavily on the CA engines. I just don't think there's much better playable as far as pushing the aggro envelope is concerned. I'm already playing both 2-power one-drops available and the two most aggressive two-drops, the most important parts of the curve for aggro. The choice between Marauder or Prophecy in the three spot (though I maintain these two cards are not competing for slots against each other) is relatively unimportant as far as determining the speed of the deck. Plus, the devotion aspect of this deck is still very much important and the Enchants are obviously superior providers to everything in that regard. Devotion powers more than Gary.
....
I give up. When you're talking about Marauder being used as a defensive card, there's no reason for this debate to continue.
And again, I agree Mono Black with a splash for green is better than just one color. Green helps remove permanents that mono black can't handle itself, which happens to be its weakness. In a mirror, Abrupt Decay gets rid of Nightveil Specter and Underworld Connections, Putrefy is a catch all removal and gets rid of Whip, Golgari Charm can get rid of any more enchantments, Fade into Antiquity removes gods, and Vraska can clean the rest up. While it's not the same as a Scry land, Reaper of the Wilds is a good hard to remove body that Scry several times.
Basically the two big reasons to splash green are:
A) gaining access to a sweeper in Gaze of Granite, and
B) gaining access to more flexible removal.
Here's the list I use now. Compared to BBD's list, the changes are pretty minimal: Swamps out to accommodate nine green sources; changes to removal for Abrupt Decay to come in; and room in the sideboard for two each of Gaze of Granite and Fade into Antiquity (again, tossing mostly other removal).
Basically, the deck now works much better in the mirror without sacrificing any power against other decks. By pitching Ultimate Price for Abrupt Decay, we've slightly hurt our ability to kill monocloured creatures but gained literally every permanent 3CMC or less as targets, and it can't be countered!
And in the side, Gaze of Granite is a nice sweeper card that can get us out of a lot of trouble, and Fade into Antiquity annihilates any enchantment in play (Thassa, Bident, Erebos and Whip being most relevant), which is just priceless.
I think we gain much more than we lose by splashing Green, and when the BG scryland rolls around, we'll gain even more.
Is Gaze really a good choice though? I know it can definitely get you out of a jam, but you're essentially getting rid of Whip and Connections on the board for the Gary blowouts.
It's most useful against something like RDW or other decks that spew out their hands and don't have too much draw power (apart from planeswalkers, but we have Hero's Downfall and evasive creatures for them too). If we can keep a few options (and possibly another Underworld Connections) in our hand, we can wipe the board and try to recover from there, especially if the situation is bad anyway. This deck could really use something like Mutilate, and this is as good as we can get right now.
I keep hearing that we are favored vs control, but i would majorly disagree. Why do some of you think that we are? Every card in esper is either a direct counter to our threats or a threat we need to kill. They play 6+ planes walkers, so we cant kill them all, and easily remove/counter all our creatures. I can hardly get any permanents on the board because our decks run slow enough for them to completely set up. I barely won a game the other day even after 2 Thoughtseizes and 2 Duresses, he still had plenty of chances to top deck answers while i prayed he didnt.
I keep hearing that we are favored vs control, but i would majorly disagree. Why do some of you think that we are? Every card in esper is either a direct counter to our threats or a threat we need to kill. They play 6+ planes walkers, so we can kill them all, and easily remove/counter all our creatures. I can hardly get any permanents on the board because our decks run slow enough for them to completely set up. I barely won a game the other day even after 2 Thoughtseizes and 2 Duresses, he still had plenty of chances to top deck answers while i prayed he didnt.
I think esper is my toughest matchup.
Control is SUPPOSED to have answers to everything, otherwise no one would play it. What do you usually grab with Duress/Thoughtseize? I beat control by sacrificing some of my creatures to counters/removal and then playing my win-cons when their hand is close to depleted. Playing against control is tricky yes, but we have a LOT of tools to fight them favorably.
4 golgari guildgate
13 swamp
3 mutavault
1 nykthos, shrine to nyx
4 desecration demon
4 nightveil specter
2 pack rat
1 erebos, god of the dead
4 gray merchant of asphodel
2 abrupt decay
2 devour flesh
1 ultimate price
4 hero's downfall
3 underworld connections
2 whip of erebos
4 thoughtseize
1 golgari charm
1 dark betrayal
1 devour flesh
1 doom blade
2 pharika's cure
1 erebos, god of the dead
3 lifebane zombie
3 duress
1 pithing needle
1 pack rat
basically just a splash for abrupt decay MB and golgari charm out of the board. Mistcutter hydra is also a board possiblity for the mono blue matchup.
I believe that this makes the deck better against decks like mono blue, the mirror, and esper control, but probably worse against stuff like RDW and WW variants. Abrupt decay also doesn't seem like it would perform very well against a deck like GR devotion/monsters. Still, this could be a good thing based on how the online meta is shaping up and the fact that mono black, mono blue, and esper all pretty well dominated the GP top 8.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
3x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3x Lifebane Zombie
2x Pack Rat
3x Reaper of the Wilds
Instant 12
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Devour Flesh
1x Doom Blade
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Putrefy
1x Ultimate price
3x thoughtseize
Enchant 5
2x Whip of Erebos
3x underworld connections
Land 24
4x Forest
4x Golgari Guildgate
2x Mutavault
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4x Overgrown Tomb
9x Swamp
1x Dark Betrayal
1x Doom Blade
2x Duress
2x Golgari Charm
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Mistcutter Hydra
2x Pharika's Cure
2x Pithing Needle
1x Primeval Bounty
1x thoughtseize
1x Underworld Connections
This has too many 4's and not enough 3's. Also, too much green. Not having 4x Gary is a mistake.
It seems to me that if you're going to splash green you should (at max) be playing 2 Reapers.
At this point I don't think we even really need enchantment hate, sure it's okay against the mirror, but we should already be bringing in pithing needle and erebos, as well as possibly duress if you feel the need for it (let's be honest here, duressing out a connections, a dark betrayal, a whip, or even a thoughtseize to protect your own spells is rather worthwhile). I really don't think we need to me metagaming against our own deck because metagaming the mirror is pretty silly (unless like over 50% of the field is going to be Mono B devotion) and unless the cards we are splashing make other matchups infinitely better there's no need for it.
I do however really like abrupt decay in the format and that is something that might be worth looking into for dealing mainly with Detention Sphere (as Esper players in my shop have started telling me that they board out verdicts and just board in Dspheres because they are more value to them as it deals with pack rat forever, prevents whipping back Gary's, etc...). But at the same time I don't feel we need help with the control matchup at all and the only thorn in our side at this point is BBoV.
I also feel the one thing the green splashes have been missing out on is Deathrite Shaman. His synergy with pack rat is sick, turning off opposing whip targets, slowly grinding away controls life, and can stabilize us against aggro by letting us gain 2 life back from the creatures we've killed is pretty strong. At worst he eats a burn spell or a jackyl pup for us against aggro, or a removal spell against esper. He also adds 1 Devotion. Maybe I'm overrating the card just a little from playing too much modern and I know we don't have fetches to make for crazy turn 2/3 plays, but he is still good value and gives us something to do on turn one that isn't thoughtseize/duress.
For now though I still think Mono Black is the way to go, and I really really hate running guildgates to force a splash color.
I'm not sure how to articulate my feelings on Deathrite Shaman. The land ability is basically dead, so it's not useful at all for the first few turns if you do play it t1. The life gain could be relevant but it costs mana you probably need to keep spending on removal, or dropping a much bigger life drain. The damage is nice since it feeds on cards that will be there in any matchup, but that seems slow when you are trying to kill all their stuff and swing with something bigger.
What are you using Pithing Needle on in the mirror?
i agree with this and with your sentiment that mono black is the way to go. I'm not sure how adding green helps against the worst matchups. RDW is the roughest and splashing answers in another color just makes it more inconsistent i believe.
also, in a field of mirror matches, mono u and esper, why would u stray away from the deck that beats them all (mono black)? Why not just tweak your sideboard/mainboard for the matchup?
I'm not a huge fan of pithing needle in the mirror since it shuts down your own powerful cards as well. There are times where it might get you out of a jam, but still screw you down the line as well.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
The particular case of BG is a different story. Pithing Needle is redundant when Underworld Connections and Whip of Erebos are better answered by Abrupt Decay and Putrefy while Erebos, God of the Dead isn't really answered by it anyway. That leaves it as anti-Pack Rat tech... Eh.
I really think the best way to break the mirror is to splash green for stuff like abrupt decay and putrefy. Having abrupt decay also greatly helps the deck's esper matchup. However this change leaves the deck weaker to stuff like GR devotion/monsters and slightly weaker to mono blue, although the fact that abrupt decay can't be countered is somewhat relevant.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Not to forget golgari charm is also very good against mono blue devotion. -1/-1 take care of master of wave and his token + take care of the best card they have against mono black, the bident
4 desecration demon
4 gray merchant of ashpodel
2 pack rat
4 nightveil specter
2 reaper of the wilds
4 thoughtseize
2 abrubt decay
2 doomblade
4 heroes downfall
1 gaze of granite
1 devour flesh
2 whip of erebos
3 underworld connections
lands:
16 swamp
1 nykthos, shrine to nyx
4 overgrown tomb
4 golgari guildgate
That Bg list looks a lot more appropriate. I'm still not a believer (at all) in gaze of granite mainboard. I'd probably substitute 1x Erebos for it.
My changes would be:
-1 Gaze of Granite
-1 Hero's Downfall
-1 Nightveil Specter
-1 Devour Flesh
-2 Swamp
+1 Erebos
+2 Lifebane Zombie
+1 Putrefy
+2 Mutavault
Fade into Antiquity is my splash card of choice if you feel the need to go green. The Enchants you want to answer most, Gods, don't die to the other enchant removal spells. Especially relevant for Erebos in mirrors. 3cc Sorcery is kinda lame but hey, nothing else can do what it does. Suck it up. There are still other relevant non-indestructible enchants, so you can still pack Golgari Charms and stuff if you want too, but Fade should probably be present in some capacity. Not a fan of Gaze, being symmetrical and thus destroying our own devotion in addition to being too slow as a solution to aggro.
DRS, Serj? Good call. I still wish its ramping capabilities weren't a Modern-only thing but oh well. I don't think Guildgates are that big a deal if you want to splash green/red, though, considering our superior card draw capability mitigates the usefulness of scrying.
I am sorry but can we finally stop discussing mono black control decks here? Because I'm pretty sure jamming 10+ removal spells that provide zero devotion because they aren't permanents makes you less devoted than aggro lists.
You don't force as much immediate damage through, sure, but our long game is much better than any other aggro deck out there. It's not a big deal if you can't swing past that T2 Ash Zealot because if me and my RDW opponent just have a staring contest for a while, unable to swing into each other's board, I'm probably going to win it. I'll put more bodies down faster than they will with my CA. Gary "trades" favorably with Fanatic if we both have 'em, I'm more likely to see mine due to my draw engines, and I'm more devoted to my color. I will chump Polukranos all day and night until Green is forced to stop swinging and start blocking or I can burn 'em out, etc.
I don't think our removal or our disruption right now is in a good enough spot to warrant taking away space from other cards. Hell, I already have Lifebane Zombie and Thoughtseize in my 75, what else is even playable on the "disruption" front? (Don't you dare say Disciple of Phenax.) Removal being weak is precisely the reason in the first place I chose an aggro route for my devotion list, because where our removal is weak you can never go wrong with just throwing bodies onto the battlefield to trade in combat.
Maybe you're both right, I'm leaning too heavily on the CA engines. I just don't think there's much better playable as far as pushing the aggro envelope is concerned. I'm already playing both 2-power one-drops available and the two most aggressive two-drops, the most important parts of the curve for aggro. The choice between Marauder or Prophecy in the three spot (though I maintain these two cards are not competing for slots against each other) is relatively unimportant as far as determining the speed of the deck. Plus, the devotion aspect of this deck is still very much important and the Enchants are obviously superior providers to everything in that regard. Devotion powers more than Gary.
I have twice as many triple-black cards and even four is borderline playable for me. You should easily be able to get away with five, with only Specter in your list, but your mileage may vary.
Having played with and against the green splash several times, I can tell you that the mono black deck is certainly not in the advantage, at least post-board. Granted, I don't think that it is a sizable increase, but you're probably somewhere between a 45-55 or 40-60 underdog. This is assuming that you're playing against an actual devotion deck with splash and not some Rock deck that has Caryatids (In which case you would have the advantage.)
They will bring in both Abrupt Decay and Charm/Putrefy against you. Black vs. Black tends to be about attrition, and unless one player blows the other out quickly it often comes down to who is able to get Connections or the Whip engine running earlier and more often. If you can't out-aggro them, they should (more often than not) win the long game simply because they can control your card advantage and you can't control theirs.
Hell, the last match I played was with Bu vs. Bg. After splitting G1 and G2, I was on the play for G3, and it went like this:
My T3: Underworld Connections (gets hit with Abrupt Decay EoT)
His T3: Underworld Connections
...and I think you can figure out where it went from there.
Now that doesn't necessarily mean that Gb is what you should be playing since those cards don't always help as much in other matchups. There are exceptions to this though where Golgari Charm (In particular) out of the board tends to be great.
....
I give up. When you're talking about Marauder being used as a defensive card, there's no reason for this debate to continue.
And again, I agree Mono Black with a splash for green is better than just one color. Green helps remove permanents that mono black can't handle itself, which happens to be its weakness. In a mirror, Abrupt Decay gets rid of Nightveil Specter and Underworld Connections, Putrefy is a catch all removal and gets rid of Whip, Golgari Charm can get rid of any more enchantments, Fade into Antiquity removes gods, and Vraska can clean the rest up. While it's not the same as a Scry land, Reaper of the Wilds is a good hard to remove body that Scry several times.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Also I haven't been following this aggro debate, but for me it's all aggro or midrange, no mixes
For a start, you should think about Dark Betrayal. You should be able to do an even swap between them and Doom Blade against Black.
Duress is always a good choice vs. control.
You should have at least 2 and maybe even 3 Golgari Charms in there.
1 more Erebos for the sideboard, I'd recommend which should always go in vs. the mirror and/or control.
If you play a lot of blue you can try Mistcutter Hydra.
Putrefy isn't bad.
And you certainly want 4 Lifebane Zombies in your 75.
Pithing Needle can shut off Planeswalkers preemptively if they're a problem for you.
A) gaining access to a sweeper in Gaze of Granite, and
B) gaining access to more flexible removal.
Here's the list I use now. Compared to BBD's list, the changes are pretty minimal: Swamps out to accommodate nine green sources; changes to removal for Abrupt Decay to come in; and room in the sideboard for two each of Gaze of Granite and Fade into Antiquity (again, tossing mostly other removal).
12 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Golgari Guildgate
1 Temple of Mystery
3 Mutavault
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
//Instants
3 Doom Blade
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Thoughtseize
//Enchantments
4 Underworld Connections
2 Whip of Erebos
//Creatures
2 Pack Rat
4 Nightveil Specter
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2 Devour Flesh
2 Duress
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Fade into Antiquity
2 Gaze of Granite
3 Lifebane Zombie
1 Pack Rat
2 Pithing Needle
Basically, the deck now works much better in the mirror without sacrificing any power against other decks. By pitching Ultimate Price for Abrupt Decay, we've slightly hurt our ability to kill monocloured creatures but gained literally every permanent 3CMC or less as targets, and it can't be countered!
We still have Devour Flesh in the sideboard to deal with Blood Baron of Vizkopa or hexproof stuff, or to switch with Doom Blade against black. Hell, there's a case for dumping Doom Blade altogether for a combination of Abrupt Decay, Hero's Downfall, Ultimate Price, Devour Flesh and even Putrefy if you want to.
And in the side, Gaze of Granite is a nice sweeper card that can get us out of a lot of trouble, and Fade into Antiquity annihilates any enchantment in play (Thassa, Bident, Erebos and Whip being most relevant), which is just priceless.
I think we gain much more than we lose by splashing Green, and when the BG scryland rolls around, we'll gain even more.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
I think esper is my toughest matchup.
Control is SUPPOSED to have answers to everything, otherwise no one would play it. What do you usually grab with Duress/Thoughtseize? I beat control by sacrificing some of my creatures to counters/removal and then playing my win-cons when their hand is close to depleted. Playing against control is tricky yes, but we have a LOT of tools to fight them favorably.
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Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack