I think you're looking at it in entirely the wrong way. You are right in that black is not as fast as RDW. But the deck doesn't need to be built as an "all-in" type of deck. If you play a black aggro deck vs. control without some type of card draw, you're pretty much going to punt the matchup. Throw a Dark Prophecy down vs. control and all of a sudden you have 3 devotion and all of their removal becomes a cantrip. Yeah, sure, you have less board presence, but you weren't going to T3 win anyway.
That being said, the weakness to black aggro is reach. You don't have the burn that red does, so without some type of card advantage you're going to get blown out if you don't win right away.
Your second paragraph is essentially why I have a problem with black aggro. You don't have the reach, which forces you to dilute your deck with card draw, which causes you to have even less reach, a pretty nasty negative feedback loop. I really don't think monoblack really has the propensity to make an honest aggro deck.
The problem with Chromatic Lantern is that it doesn't really help do anything. It's taking up a spot that we need for other cards. Playing Nykthos doesn't hurt us much; we get a Legendary Land that can set up some amazing plays that anyone who's played this deck can testify to at the cost of a little bit less consistency.
The decks mana is consistent enough that the colorless mana doesn't conflict with the Nightveil Specter's mana cost. Most decks run 4-5 colorless lands, and the chances of us having three B by turn 3 is significant, and almost guaranteed by turn 4.
Chromatic does absolutely nothing to help the deck accomplish what it needs to do. The ramp is negligible, Specter card-steal being a guaranteed cast isn't too important considering the current meta (all of the black in the meta, we should be casting spells often off of it), and having a singleton will actually do less than just a guildgate would for a splash in terms of consistency.
I'm not trying to be rude, I just think you shouldn't waste your time on it.
I don't think you're being rude at all, no worries. Just trying to add to the discussion.
Gerry Thompson top 8'd the Invitational this weekend with a single Prophetic Prism in the main. The obvious differences are that Prism is a 2-drop and cantrips. Whether the cantrip really matters in a deck with 4 Underworld Connections is debatable to me vs Chromatic Lantern.
Now, would the addition of Lantern really be a giant difference? I don't think so, and that's not what I'm aiming for. If you're playing strict mono-black, I don't see a reason for it. However, if you're splashing for another color, I could definitely see a spot for it. It's easily sided out after game 1 if you so desire too. I don't see giving one spot in the 75 to Chromatic Lantern as weakening the deck, except for in the mirror (where it's sided out).
Prophetic Prism was ostensibly to curve into Nightveil Specter T3 more consistently. Personally I don't think it's that important and Specter on T4 is just fine too, but Chromatic Lantern is not helping you curve into anything. The ramp isn't that great because you're never going to want a T3 Lantern into a T4 Gray Merchant. Its only real application is helping you cast Specter's stolen spells faster, which I'd rather do with an extra swing connecting with their land. I don't really see the application.
If you wanted to run a full set of fixers, maybe you could get away with a silly manabase like 3x Nykthos 4x Mutavault. I don't think that's worth it though.
Hey guys, I have been watching this for a while now and had a few questions just to make sure I'm on the same page.
Would you say that Bg is a good way to go in a meta field full of black and blue? There is some RG here and there but the majority is monoblack, black white, and monoblue.
I like the fact that the removal in the form of Abrupt Decay and Putrefy can knock out the specters without being super limited (looking at you Dark Betrayal) and the skylasher seems interesting in keeping monoblue under control while also helping a bit against the specters in monoblack as well.
Does this seem where the deck will shift once the metagame becomes more black and anti-black or is that just an offshoot of monoblack?
I found I have liked Jacob Baugh's deck and BBD's decks for Bg and MBD, respectively. However, I've been wanting to change BBD's SB to more black hate (remove the Devour Flesh in the SB for another Dark Betrayal and bump the DF count up in the main) and main deck Ultimate Price rather than Doom Blade. But the more I dance around the removal issue the more I see Bg coming in without any issues at all since the main things to kill are killed with Putrefy and Abrupt Decay (along with artifacts being a stellar bonus for the Putrefy). The mana seems a littly icky though and I'm not sure if I like the idea of 3 UG lands to help with the Specter since it takes away from black along with the Mutavaults and Nykthos.
Do we find, in the Bg deck, for the Prisms to be all that, or was it helpful only because no one expected it? I see it can help with casting stolen cards and be on curve to cast the specter if we draw a Mutavault or Nykthos, but will it just be pack rat fodder late in the game if no specters hit the field or if we have plenty of mana? I can see that card being underwhelming in the early game, too, but I haven't tested it at all.
Also, with respect to the Bg deck and BBDs deck, do we really need the Nykthos in Bg? BBD seemed to have done well without it and the more I see the deck play I really don't see it getting restricted on mana. Besides Pack Rat, where else would we really have a mana sink? And the deck really isn't going to be super explosive early in the game like monoblue. I guess I could see Nykthos being useful more if we SB some of the Mistcutter Hydras?
Finally, am I missing the big deal on Abhorrent Overlord? Where exactly does he come in and shine? I see if maybe control doesn't hit it with D-Sphere, but it doesn't seem super great anywhere else, especially as a one-of, and it seems like just another reason to "justify" the Nykthos.
With these things being said, here is the deck I thought about using for the big event next weekend (keeping the Nykthos in there for now, might just kick it out for another swamp or for a scry land):
The Erebos main is more of a meta call vs the 4th Pack Rat as there is a lot of black and white running around and it helps to win the race, and it'll help with the mirror match a bit as well. I think having 4 pack rats is definitely worth it though in some matchups, but in the first game an Erebos works as a 5th UW Connections, a big guy, and also as the life limiter that I need facing a lot of black.
If the monoblack deck was to be better in the metagame (which is one of my bigger questions), I would probably use a nearly identical copy of BBD's deck except Ultimate Price main rather than Doom Blade and have some more devour flesh in there for the Blood Barons and Obzedats trying to run around. When I was running BW I can't tell you how many times those Doom Blades were useless. But with the Doom Blades in the SB I could pull them out against the GW decks if I encounter them (since most of the pains were multicolor).
I see the point - if devotion is what you want for Gray Merchant, why play anything that isn't a permanent? I just worry about the removal suite, and especially that Thoughtseize is in sideboard - UW/Esper Control will rip this apart I think.
We shift who plays wich one each week so as to learn them both and find nuances we wouldn't by ourselves. So far the "aggro" deck has a better game against MGD, MUD, UWControl, ColossalGruul and MBD. While MBD has a better game against Heroic Wx, MRD, Selesnya, Esper, WBR and WB.
MRD is both of the decks' worst game, non-black removal hurts the "aggro" deck a lot.
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So some decks run a one-of Nykthos, which I'm not a big fan of. To me, there isn't enough advantage to potential giant pools of mana to run a colorless land.
I'm running 2 and 2 aberrant overlord for no other reason than I can go bigger than anyone in the mirror and even gr half the time. Been impressed with the strat of kill everything and drop late game overlord for something around 10-15 power in the air. I cut all copies of desecration demon because I don't own them and want value, opting for 1 more pack rat, 1 more erebos, and 2 overlord in those spots. So far I don't even consider this a loss.
I think this deck is going to have a problem if we keep trying to add stuff to it: YATD, Yet Another Three Drop.
Seriously wtf is wotc hating black 2 drops? I remember this being a problem in innistrad before avacyn came out. Like black just didnt' have access to 2cc playable creatures. We currently have like 1.5, pack rats and shred freak in aggro.
Turn one: Cackler
Turn 2: shredfreak
Turn 3: remove a blocker/drop Dark Prophesy/Underworld Connections/etc
4: DD or LR
5: Gary
How is this bad?
Week after week, I won. And I play online, so the vast majority of my winnings go to IRL folks.
its not bad but its also not this deck, this deck is in established because of the pt winning and subsequent strong showing mono/near mono black control list. Discuss devotion aggro all you want in another thread.
Why post a list?
You mean to tell me forums are so amazing? Please. Black Devotion, lol but most the talk includes a splash, debating the colors of the splash, etc.
I'll keep my hybrid cards and win through curve, thank you.
Your attitude is bad and you are amazed people want to see wtf you are ranting about? You come across as a noob, with all the **** talking your doing I doubt you could beat me playing a homelands sealed deck.
I went 7-3 at the Indianapolis Open yesterday with Brad Nelson's list.
Lost the first two rounds to two mirrors. Close games but I could have sided better (I'm bad) and I was rusty in not playing the game in over a year except for one FMN four months ago. Kept bad hands and didn't draw into lands. Also I think this list didn't really account for the heavy black meta- doom blade was pretty useless. As long as neither player got mana screwed or anything, it basically came down to who got Erebos.
I'm going to say this, I have 2 erebos main and 1 sb, it is arguably the single best card in mirror when on the offensive. Of course underworld connections is the best card to have against mirror but that card is basically the best card to have against any deck that isn't trying to win by turn 4 or bust.
Luckily I didn't get any red matchups. I'm curious how this does against the G/R decks in the top 8. Seems fine against Esper, but that might just be the decks' pilots since the top two decks were Esper.
Deck should beat esper but they can win if they successfully get rid of our connections and manage to get to late game to put down a protected aetherling.
GR is an okay matchup but its one of the big reasons why I wouldn't go too ham on devour flesh as doom blade and ultimate price are very important here. Dealing with garruk is our most annoying problem because he can still give absurd ca even if we kill him almost immediately.
Doom Blade seems better in the board now, than it does main deck. I like the move that I saw in GerryT's list at the SCG invitational.
He added an extra Ultimate Price, which I REALLY like in this meta. It hits everything but Blood Baron. Now if GW makes a comeback, i'll go back to Doom Blade.
The Prism is a nice addition as well, cantrip and helps cast off of Nightveil. Casting our opp's spells isn't huge, but it can be somewhat good in some situations. I like it as a 1 of.
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Mono-B Devotion showed up in Top 8 at Indianapolis twice, Brian Braun-Duin's straight Mono-B and Jacob Baugh's B(g).
Obviously, both were good enough to get that far and placed highly.
As someone experimenting with B(g), I think that Baugh's list was interesting. He really seems to have a risky mana base though: 5 colorless, 6 tap lands (4 Guildgate/2 Temple), though I think that 25 lands and some UG lands are probably a fair decision to up landing GB. I understand why he put in Prophetic Prism, but it feels a bit off.
I like the 4 Pack Rat though. I think most of us are thinking about it, and let's face it, it is a really strong turn 2 move, so why not hit it turn 2 more often? Plus, Rat gets a huge boost from Nykthos and devotion. Being able to drop 2-3 rats at once end of turn is quite powerful. Like having flash creatures in mono-B.
I'm also not convinced by 4 Abrupt Decay main. That seems a bit greedy. I still think that some variety of removal is correct.
In the side, given the prominence of Epser Control, I think we still want to be in the 3-4 Duress side of the game and Lifebane Zombie is still strong against them as well.
Still, very promising list overall.
@Coucho Marx
On Fade into Antiquity vs. Golgari Charm, I think I agree with you. Charm has more versatility and usually the problem with the Gods are their turning on as creatures. Better to leave them as enchantments on the board in most cases than side a sub-optimal card to exile them.
my list has had 4 pack rats main because they are so hard to deal with if played right. also being able to play one turn 2 puts a lot of pressure on the opponent if they do not remove it immediately. usually ill sit on it a turn with mana up to see what they do and make another at the end of their turn if they do nothing. its been one of the main killers for this deck for me. heres my list.
dont really know if i need the temples though as it has slowed me down more than a few times. Nykthos might be better as a 2 of as it has caused some blow out games with pack rats and erebos on board...(of course other devotion enablers whip and Underworld on board)
i know what your gonna say. why no Desecration Demon? cause he sucks. yes he has a lot of power and costs cheap. he does not do what i want him to do when i want since his attack is based on what the opponent wants to do. reminds me of vexing devil in that sense but isnt guranteed to do damage ever. ive seen him get tapped down a few times while the opponent gets some removal to deal with him. with the addition of pack rats i felt i need more mana open to pop out rats instead so he didnt make the cut.
underworld connections is great but i never want more than one on the board as i lose a lot of tempo against the faster decks which my meta has a lot of. three has been working all kinds of awesome because of it.
I came back to Desecration Demon, but that's because my list is 4 things. Removal, lands, creatures and Whip/Connections. No Thoughtseize, no cute stuff, just straight MB devotion (with the W splash for the sideboard options).
Works pretty well for me so far. But hey, why let facts get in the way of theorycrafting, right?
It's not a fact, dude. You've come in this thread several times (with what seems like trolling) with your lists that remove core cards from the deck saying how it's so much better then the current, proven, working list.
I'm just tired of seeing it tbh, and will call you out on the nonsense.
I came with statistics, gauntlet runs against top-tier lists, pre-sideboard, post-sideboard. And you repeat again and again "but the core of the deck!" with no other argument. There's no core. This deck is barely one month old. What's the point of having this thread if the only thing you're not "calling out" are SCG lists? I'm not the one starting the snide comments with nothing else to back up my argument but other people's lists. How many match did you play with this deck? Do you try it against every new list that comes out of Top 8 Opens, GPs and PT?
If you could start ignoring me, I'd like to discuss the actual archetype rather than defending every freaking statement I make against somebody who doesn't even seem to test the stuff he's saying.
I'm not even going to entertain this further, stop ruining a good deck. Your "changes" aren't contributing anything other then "hey look at me I think I'm cool and can run this deck without X in it".
Having looked at Kamenitza's deck let me say that there are things I understand, and those I don't.
For example, I have no problem with running 2x Erebos alongside 2 Desecration Demon. It isn't what I run, but I can see the reasoning.
But completely abandoning Thoughtseize? That is misguided. At worst, I can see 3x in the maindeck, but even that seems wrong. The only deck I'm not happy to see thoughtseize is RDW, and even then it is rarely "bad" as it usually still is a net positive toward your life total. If your meta is 50% RDW...okay.
And splashing 7 white lands for 3 removal spells in the sideboard and nothing main? Not worth it. I at least expected a Blood Baron or something.
Having looked at Kamenitza's deck let me say that there are things I understand, and those I don't.
For example, I have no problem with running 2x Erebos alongside 2 Desecration Demon. It isn't what I run, but I can see the reasoning.
But completely abandoning Thoughtseize? That is misguided. At worst, I can see 3x in the maindeck, but even that seems wrong. The only deck I'm not happy to see thoughtseize is RDW, and even then it is rarely "bad" as it usually still is a net positive toward your life total. If your meta is 50% RDW...okay.
And splashing 7 white lands for 3 removal spells in the sideboard and nothing main? Not worth it. I at least expected a Blood Baron or something.
His list was a lot worse when I first did some fixes (which he actually listened to, strangely enough even though he refuses to admit it).
Now it's just kind of going off the rails. Running 2 Nykthos for no reason (and nothing to ramp to), running Ratchet Bombs AND Pack Rats (lol), mainboarding 3 Lifebane Zombie AND 4 Specters, running 7 dual lands and nothing in the mainboard to support it.. His decklists are just all over the place and basically seem like nothing short of trolling.
He also posted a 9 - 4 w/l streak at his local game, and that should constitute for enough testing to deem his opinion more worthy then others.
@Coucho Marx
On Fade into Antiquity vs. Golgari Charm, I think I agree with you. Charm has more versatility and usually the problem with the Gods are their turning on as creatures. Better to leave them as enchantments on the board in most cases than side a sub-optimal card to exile them.
I can see cutting from the sideboard for other considerations, but I do think it should be brought in if available. All three of the URB gods have very powerful effects against us that have no other direct answer. Erebos especially tends to slam the door in the mirror for the life gain ability alone; Pithing Needle is probably good enough for Thassa, but not the other two. Purphoros you might be better off racing since you want to stack devotion, Nylea is not a particular concern... I like it primarily against black or blue devotion.
Kamenitza, ratchet bomb is bad against voice. Just play more rats and go bigger than them, they have no sweeper what do you bomb? the voice or thine token? You are two for oneing yourself.. And you are WRONG about cash seize. Brad Nelson, who just piloted mono black to a top eight said it best ... thought seize IS the format.
The list changed quite a bit since then, again. 24 - 9 for 1v1 real life stats, the stats for the self-played gauntlets are irrelevant since I'm just an awful, awful player, and Cockatrice is, am sure, completely irrelevant because players on this platform are, I'm sure, just as bad as I am.
Sideboard is adapted to my local meta which has a rather diversified meta, with a majority of Esper Control and Gary Devotion. Which is why I run the second Erebos mainboard. For the land base, the Nykthos allow degenerate turns to close off games faster. I've tested Mutavault annnnd I don't like it. It's very cute with Pack Rat, sure, but I already play a lof of creatures. I don't especially need wrath-resistant aggression against Control either. See Jare, I've listened to your critics. No, I still don't see the need for Thoughtseize here, the only real resolved threats are either fast starts with BTE godhands or a Daddy Garruk. If GW comes back in my meta, Ratchet Bomb is going back into the sideboard to avoid the Voice of Resurgence sacrifice to the Demon/swing for lethal next turn, which is terribly annoying.
If your meta is Esper and Black Devotion, I have to wonder why you still have 3x Lifebane maindecked and/or why you don't have the 4th lifebane in the sideboard.
I question the white splash for questionable sideboard cards. God's Willing is a decent card if you're heavy into white, but as a sideboard splash card? Not so much. The other cards simply don't seem necessary. You're gimping your maindeck every single game 1 by playing a color that isn't in your deck. That doesn't seem wise.
Not running Thoughtseize is huge mistake in this meta. Removal spells don't take out Whips, Revelation, Assemble the Legion, and other non-creature threats that are prevalent. The hand information can be crucial at times to make sure you don't use the wrong removal spell on a creature, or just plucking a creature with a EtB effect is good.
So, are we the deck to beat? I hear Esper players saying Esper is the best deck in the format but I can't take them seriously with how hard we, Orzhov and MUD wreck it. And how hard ColossalGruul and Junk wreck it when they sideboard dedicatedly against us.
I feel we have a much more balanced deck that can deal with anything and only gets slightly fragile against MRD, while other top decks need to sideboard either against the midrange/control lists or the aggro lists but can't effectively fight both with the same 75.
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Just testing the Bomb as a catchall. There aren't any matchups where I really want two Needle except Esper and I think I already have enough percentage in that matchup.
Your second paragraph is essentially why I have a problem with black aggro. You don't have the reach, which forces you to dilute your deck with card draw, which causes you to have even less reach, a pretty nasty negative feedback loop. I really don't think monoblack really has the propensity to make an honest aggro deck.
I don't think you're being rude at all, no worries. Just trying to add to the discussion.
Gerry Thompson top 8'd the Invitational this weekend with a single Prophetic Prism in the main. The obvious differences are that Prism is a 2-drop and cantrips. Whether the cantrip really matters in a deck with 4 Underworld Connections is debatable to me vs Chromatic Lantern.
Now, would the addition of Lantern really be a giant difference? I don't think so, and that's not what I'm aiming for. If you're playing strict mono-black, I don't see a reason for it. However, if you're splashing for another color, I could definitely see a spot for it. It's easily sided out after game 1 if you so desire too. I don't see giving one spot in the 75 to Chromatic Lantern as weakening the deck, except for in the mirror (where it's sided out).
If you wanted to run a full set of fixers, maybe you could get away with a silly manabase like 3x Nykthos 4x Mutavault. I don't think that's worth it though.
Would you say that Bg is a good way to go in a meta field full of black and blue? There is some RG here and there but the majority is monoblack, black white, and monoblue.
I like the fact that the removal in the form of Abrupt Decay and Putrefy can knock out the specters without being super limited (looking at you Dark Betrayal) and the skylasher seems interesting in keeping monoblue under control while also helping a bit against the specters in monoblack as well.
Does this seem where the deck will shift once the metagame becomes more black and anti-black or is that just an offshoot of monoblack?
I found I have liked Jacob Baugh's deck and BBD's decks for Bg and MBD, respectively. However, I've been wanting to change BBD's SB to more black hate (remove the Devour Flesh in the SB for another Dark Betrayal and bump the DF count up in the main) and main deck Ultimate Price rather than Doom Blade. But the more I dance around the removal issue the more I see Bg coming in without any issues at all since the main things to kill are killed with Putrefy and Abrupt Decay (along with artifacts being a stellar bonus for the Putrefy). The mana seems a littly icky though and I'm not sure if I like the idea of 3 UG lands to help with the Specter since it takes away from black along with the Mutavaults and Nykthos.
Do we find, in the Bg deck, for the Prisms to be all that, or was it helpful only because no one expected it? I see it can help with casting stolen cards and be on curve to cast the specter if we draw a Mutavault or Nykthos, but will it just be pack rat fodder late in the game if no specters hit the field or if we have plenty of mana? I can see that card being underwhelming in the early game, too, but I haven't tested it at all.
Also, with respect to the Bg deck and BBDs deck, do we really need the Nykthos in Bg? BBD seemed to have done well without it and the more I see the deck play I really don't see it getting restricted on mana. Besides Pack Rat, where else would we really have a mana sink? And the deck really isn't going to be super explosive early in the game like monoblue. I guess I could see Nykthos being useful more if we SB some of the Mistcutter Hydras?
Finally, am I missing the big deal on Abhorrent Overlord? Where exactly does he come in and shine? I see if maybe control doesn't hit it with D-Sphere, but it doesn't seem super great anywhere else, especially as a one-of, and it seems like just another reason to "justify" the Nykthos.
With these things being said, here is the deck I thought about using for the big event next weekend (keeping the Nykthos in there for now, might just kick it out for another swamp or for a scry land):
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Nightveil Specter
3 Pack Rat
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
Lands (25)
9 Swamp
1 Breeding Pool
4 Golgari Guildgate
4 Mutavault
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple of Mystery
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Devour Flesh
4 Underworld Connections
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Whip of Erebos
4 Thoughtseize
1 Pack Rat
4 Skylasher
2 Golgari Charm
3 Putrefy
1 Devour Flesh
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Duress
The Erebos main is more of a meta call vs the 4th Pack Rat as there is a lot of black and white running around and it helps to win the race, and it'll help with the mirror match a bit as well. I think having 4 pack rats is definitely worth it though in some matchups, but in the first game an Erebos works as a 5th UW Connections, a big guy, and also as the life limiter that I need facing a lot of black.
If the monoblack deck was to be better in the metagame (which is one of my bigger questions), I would probably use a nearly identical copy of BBD's deck except Ultimate Price main rather than Doom Blade and have some more devour flesh in there for the Blood Barons and Obzedats trying to run around. When I was running BW I can't tell you how many times those Doom Blades were useless. But with the Doom Blades in the SB I could pull them out against the GW decks if I encounter them (since most of the pains were multicolor).
Any thoughts or input?
I've trimmed it down the best I could, going with maximum amounts of the higher percentage stuff.
4 Mutavault
20 Swamp
//Spells
2 Doom Blade
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Whip of Erebos
//Creatures
4 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Mogis's Marauder
2 Pack Rat
3 Rakdos Cackler
3 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
3 Tormented Hero
2 Xathrid Necromancer
2 Devour Flesh
2 Doom Blade
2 Duress
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Pharika's Cure
4 Thoughtseize
I see the point - if devotion is what you want for Gray Merchant, why play anything that isn't a permanent? I just worry about the removal suite, and especially that Thoughtseize is in sideboard - UW/Esper Control will rip this apart I think.
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Mogis's Marauder
3 Nightveil Specter
3 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
23 Swamp
2 Dark Prophesy
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Doom Blade
2 Ultimate Price
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Thoughtseize
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Doom Blade
2 Devour Flesh
2 Underworld Connections
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Pack Rat
4 Nightveil Specter
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Thoughtseize
2 Devour Flesh
2 Doom Blade
2 Ultimate Price
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Underworld Connections
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Temple of Deceit
20 Swamp
1 Dark Betrayal
3 Duress
2 Devour Flesh
2 Doom Blade
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Far // Away
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
We shift who plays wich one each week so as to learn them both and find nuances we wouldn't by ourselves. So far the "aggro" deck has a better game against MGD, MUD, UWControl, ColossalGruul and MBD. While MBD has a better game against Heroic Wx, MRD, Selesnya, Esper, WBR and WB.
MRD is both of the decks' worst game, non-black removal hurts the "aggro" deck a lot.
I'm running 2 and 2 aberrant overlord for no other reason than I can go bigger than anyone in the mirror and even gr half the time. Been impressed with the strat of kill everything and drop late game overlord for something around 10-15 power in the air. I cut all copies of desecration demon because I don't own them and want value, opting for 1 more pack rat, 1 more erebos, and 2 overlord in those spots. So far I don't even consider this a loss.
Seriously wtf is wotc hating black 2 drops? I remember this being a problem in innistrad before avacyn came out. Like black just didnt' have access to 2cc playable creatures. We currently have like 1.5, pack rats and shred freak in aggro.
its not bad but its also not this deck, this deck is in established because of the pt winning and subsequent strong showing mono/near mono black control list. Discuss devotion aggro all you want in another thread.
Your attitude is bad and you are amazed people want to see wtf you are ranting about? You come across as a noob, with all the **** talking your doing I doubt you could beat me playing a homelands sealed deck.
I'm going to say this, I have 2 erebos main and 1 sb, it is arguably the single best card in mirror when on the offensive. Of course underworld connections is the best card to have against mirror but that card is basically the best card to have against any deck that isn't trying to win by turn 4 or bust.
Deck should beat esper but they can win if they successfully get rid of our connections and manage to get to late game to put down a protected aetherling.
GR is an okay matchup but its one of the big reasons why I wouldn't go too ham on devour flesh as doom blade and ultimate price are very important here. Dealing with garruk is our most annoying problem because he can still give absurd ca even if we kill him almost immediately.
He added an extra Ultimate Price, which I REALLY like in this meta. It hits everything but Blood Baron. Now if GW makes a comeback, i'll go back to Doom Blade.
The Prism is a nice addition as well, cantrip and helps cast off of Nightveil. Casting our opp's spells isn't huge, but it can be somewhat good in some situations. I like it as a 1 of.
-Michael Jacob
Obviously, both were good enough to get that far and placed highly.
As someone experimenting with B(g), I think that Baugh's list was interesting. He really seems to have a risky mana base though: 5 colorless, 6 tap lands (4 Guildgate/2 Temple), though I think that 25 lands and some UG lands are probably a fair decision to up landing GB. I understand why he put in Prophetic Prism, but it feels a bit off.
I like the 4 Pack Rat though. I think most of us are thinking about it, and let's face it, it is a really strong turn 2 move, so why not hit it turn 2 more often? Plus, Rat gets a huge boost from Nykthos and devotion. Being able to drop 2-3 rats at once end of turn is quite powerful. Like having flash creatures in mono-B.
I'm also not convinced by 4 Abrupt Decay main. That seems a bit greedy. I still think that some variety of removal is correct.
In the side, given the prominence of Epser Control, I think we still want to be in the 3-4 Duress side of the game and Lifebane Zombie is still strong against them as well.
Still, very promising list overall.
@Coucho Marx
On Fade into Antiquity vs. Golgari Charm, I think I agree with you. Charm has more versatility and usually the problem with the Gods are their turning on as creatures. Better to leave them as enchantments on the board in most cases than side a sub-optimal card to exile them.
4 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Breeding Pool
1 Nykthos, Shrine of Nyx
3 Mutavault
11 Swamps
Creatures 16
4 Desecration Demon
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Pack Rat
4 Underworld Connections
2 Whip of Erebos
Sorcery 4
4 Thoughtseize
Instant 9
1 Ultimate Price
1 Doom Blade
1 Devour Flesh
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Lifebane Zombie
4 Duress
2 Putrefy
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Gray Merchant of Ashodel
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Thoughtseize
2 Ultimate Price
2 Devour Flesh
2 Doom Blade
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Mutavault
2 Temple of Deceit
dont really know if i need the temples though as it has slowed me down more than a few times. Nykthos might be better as a 2 of as it has caused some blow out games with pack rats and erebos on board...(of course other devotion enablers whip and Underworld on board)
i know what your gonna say. why no Desecration Demon? cause he sucks. yes he has a lot of power and costs cheap. he does not do what i want him to do when i want since his attack is based on what the opponent wants to do. reminds me of vexing devil in that sense but isnt guranteed to do damage ever. ive seen him get tapped down a few times while the opponent gets some removal to deal with him. with the addition of pack rats i felt i need more mana open to pop out rats instead so he didnt make the cut.
underworld connections is great but i never want more than one on the board as i lose a lot of tempo against the faster decks which my meta has a lot of. three has been working all kinds of awesome because of it.
Don't even have to say anything, just read bold.
Mono Black B
Mono Blue U
Esper Control BUW (Soon)
Commander
Mindseize BRU
Esper BWU
Modern
Black Deck Wins B
Goblin Deck Wins R
It's not a fact, dude. You've come in this thread several times (with what seems like trolling) with your lists that remove core cards from the deck saying how it's so much better then the current, proven, working list.
I'm just tired of seeing it tbh, and will call you out on the nonsense.
Mono Black B
Mono Blue U
Esper Control BUW (Soon)
Commander
Mindseize BRU
Esper BWU
Modern
Black Deck Wins B
Goblin Deck Wins R
I'm not even going to entertain this further, stop ruining a good deck. Your "changes" aren't contributing anything other then "hey look at me I think I'm cool and can run this deck without X in it".
Mono Black B
Mono Blue U
Esper Control BUW (Soon)
Commander
Mindseize BRU
Esper BWU
Modern
Black Deck Wins B
Goblin Deck Wins R
For example, I have no problem with running 2x Erebos alongside 2 Desecration Demon. It isn't what I run, but I can see the reasoning.
But completely abandoning Thoughtseize? That is misguided. At worst, I can see 3x in the maindeck, but even that seems wrong. The only deck I'm not happy to see thoughtseize is RDW, and even then it is rarely "bad" as it usually still is a net positive toward your life total. If your meta is 50% RDW...okay.
And splashing 7 white lands for 3 removal spells in the sideboard and nothing main? Not worth it. I at least expected a Blood Baron or something.
His list was a lot worse when I first did some fixes (which he actually listened to, strangely enough even though he refuses to admit it).
Now it's just kind of going off the rails. Running 2 Nykthos for no reason (and nothing to ramp to), running Ratchet Bombs AND Pack Rats (lol), mainboarding 3 Lifebane Zombie AND 4 Specters, running 7 dual lands and nothing in the mainboard to support it.. His decklists are just all over the place and basically seem like nothing short of trolling.
He also posted a 9 - 4 w/l streak at his local game, and that should constitute for enough testing to deem his opinion more worthy then others.
Mono Black B
Mono Blue U
Esper Control BUW (Soon)
Commander
Mindseize BRU
Esper BWU
Modern
Black Deck Wins B
Goblin Deck Wins R
I can see cutting from the sideboard for other considerations, but I do think it should be brought in if available. All three of the URB gods have very powerful effects against us that have no other direct answer. Erebos especially tends to slam the door in the mirror for the life gain ability alone; Pithing Needle is probably good enough for Thassa, but not the other two. Purphoros you might be better off racing since you want to stack devotion, Nylea is not a particular concern... I like it primarily against black or blue devotion.
If your meta is Esper and Black Devotion, I have to wonder why you still have 3x Lifebane maindecked and/or why you don't have the 4th lifebane in the sideboard.
I question the white splash for questionable sideboard cards. God's Willing is a decent card if you're heavy into white, but as a sideboard splash card? Not so much. The other cards simply don't seem necessary. You're gimping your maindeck every single game 1 by playing a color that isn't in your deck. That doesn't seem wise.
Lastly, I see you're running 3x Devour main. Why?
I feel we have a much more balanced deck that can deal with anything and only gets slightly fragile against MRD, while other top decks need to sideboard either against the midrange/control lists or the aggro lists but can't effectively fight both with the same 75.
4x Desecration Demon
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4x Nightveil Specter
2x Pack Rat
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
Spells(20)
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Thoughtseize
4x Underworld Connections
3x Ultimate Price
2x Devour Flesh
2x Whip of Erebos
1x Doom Blade
16x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
3x Mutavault
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3x Duress
3x Lifebane Zombie
2x Pack Rat
2x Pharika's Cure
1x Dark Betrayal
1x Devour Flesh
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
Nothing crazy. Just a Standard list. I could see playing a 3rd Pack Rat MD over a Demon depending on your meta.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
My only questions for you Koopa:
Why 3 Ultimate Price instead of 2?
Why 2 Nykthos instead of 1?
Why only 3 Mutavault instead of 4?
Mono Black B
Mono Blue U
Esper Control BUW (Soon)
Commander
Mindseize BRU
Esper BWU
Modern
Black Deck Wins B
Goblin Deck Wins R
I cut a Doom Blade for a Price with the influx of Black Devotion. That said, I still like having a Doom Blade in the deck.
2 Nykthos because I enjoy having the explosiveness the card provides.
3 Mutavault because I am playing 2 Nykthos and I can't afford 6 colorless lands.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor