Good to know, I never read the entire announcment. I always felt ill once I got to the combat damage section.
Just in case there is any confusion still in this regard:
Quote from M10 Rules Changes article »
If a card was printed with the word "lifelink" on it, its functionality will change to the new lifelink. However, a bunch of cards were printed with the ability "Whenever [this permanent] deals damage, you gain that much life" on them and got errata to say "lifelink" a couple of years ago because the two abilities were equivalent. Now that they're not, those cards will be reverted to their original wordings. They'll work as printed ... but they won't have lifelink. Only one card— Loxodon Warhammer —has been printed both ways. Since its most recent printing says "lifelink," it will stick with that and have the new functionality.
let me just be the next person to say this. i've now played several games with the M10 rules and honestly, my games weren't effected at all. and yes, i even drafted a mogg fanatic. you know what he did? he came down turn one and took out a figure of destiny before it could get out of control. prior to M10 he would have done that exact same thing. really, the instances where damage on the stack matters are slim. i'm not gonna lie and say that losing the ability to stack combat damage doesn't hurt specific creatures, but it doesn't hinder anything to point of unplayability. also, the new lifelink rule never mattered. my opponent had a warhammer, but not stacking the lifelink ability was never an issue. combat wasn't much different, either. multiple blockers on one attacker is actually a rare thing.
i did have it come up once, however, and it was the only time the M10 rules really mattered. (and to be honest, i'm not sure if we played it correctly. do inform me if i'm wrong here) i swung w/ an armadillo cloaked kird ape (4/5, i have a forest). my opponent blocked with skeletal vampire and the two tokens. i chose vamp then token for blocker order. damage resolves, vamp takes 3, token takes 1, ape takes 5, he loses all but one token, i lose ape, gain life ability from cloak hits the stack, i gain 4 life. this would have worked out a lot better for him prior to M10 as he could have stacked damage and then sac'd a token a keep his vamp. now, if he wants to kill my ape, he has to let all of the damage resolve. if he sacs a token to regenerate his vampire, he loses a point of damage and my kird ape lives. i don't think theres a chance for him to sac a token to save his vamp post damage.
anyway... seeing as how we did two drafts with the cube and then played a few games with actual constructed (legacy) decks and that was the only time the M10 rules actually mattered, i'll give them a fair chance. i really don't think it's going to affect gameplay that much.
First off, why didn't he just chump with a single token?
If he felt the need to block, and had the 3BB, couldn't he have pitched Token #2 to generate Tokens #3 and #4, then pitched one of those to regenerate his Batman?
If you assigned them in order of Batman -> Token #1 -> Token #2, Batman and Token #1 deal their damage, Token #1 is dead, but since you're going to lose Token #2 anyways, why not pitch it to save the 3/3 guy? It's still not 5 total damage from the Batman/Tokens, but you're boy would've saved the 3/3 token-generating flyer. The absolute worst case is that he doesn't have the 3BB and has to pitch Token #2 to save the Batman.
In either case, given what's on the board and not taking spells into account, he has no way to deal 5 to your Kird Ape without losing his board (unless he has a $#!t-ton of mana). It depends what was more important to him at the time.
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
First off, why didn't he just chump with a single token?
If he felt the need to block, and had the 3BB, couldn't he have pitched Token #2 to generate Tokens #3 and #4, then pitched one of those to regenerate his Batman?
If you assigned them in order of Batman -> Token #1 -> Token #2, Batman and Token #1 deal their damage, Token #1 is dead, but since you're going to lose Token #2 anyways, why not pitch it to save the 3/3 guy? It's still not 5 total damage from the Batman/Tokens, but you're boy would've saved the 3/3 token-generating flyer. The absolute worst case is that he doesn't have the 3BB and has to pitch Token #2 to save the Batman.
In either case, given what's on the board and not taking spells into account, he has no way to deal 5 to your Kird Ape without losing his board (unless he has a $#!t-ton of mana). It depends what was more important to him at the time.
oh, he had to kill the ape. and i don't remember exactly, but i'm pretty sure he didn't have the five mana up to sac a token. but i do suppose that if he had the mana, he could have sac'd one to make two more. sac'd one of those to throw the regen shield around vamp and then declared blockers. of course, if that were the case i would have ordered them differently. (token, token, vamp since the vamp's gonna live anyway from regen)
momentary blink is a card that we discussed removing last night. it's still good against removal spells, but is that enough to warrant it's inclusion in the cube?
the only one of those creatures that we currently include in our cube is yavimaya elder and we have no plans on removing him. just because he's no longer able to chump an X/2 and kill it while still fetching up some land and drawing a card doesn't mean he's not cube worthy. he's still two for one card advantage and that's still pretty good. also, you can still chump a bigger dude with him and then sac for the abilities. he may not deal damage, but damage probably won't matter there.
as has been stated before... a lot of creatures were affected by the M10 rules change, but i don't think any of them were made so bad that they should be removed entirely from the cube.
EDIT: also in the case of DerBK's chump block in the SkeleVamp scenario, remember that it's still possible to chump and then sac the token before damage. the attacking 5/5 is still considered blocked. if there's no trample involved, that's still an excellent play. they tap their 5/5 and you end up w/ an extra dude... seems good, no?
The Momentary Blink still works with all the CIP creatures, and the Rainbow Efreet and Yavimaya Elder are still great cards. I never thought Fling was good enough for the cube anyways, you you could probably cut that, and Spike Feeder is only kinda... meh.
Nothing was hurt by M10 so bad that it needs to be cut. There are cards that were underwhelming before that maybe could afford to go now that M10 changes some of their functionality. But that's because the card was sub par anyways... not because M10 "killed" it.
Cards that were difinitely cube-worthy before still are. Cards that were on the bubble of needing to be cut anyways could possibly get pushed over the edge.
I thought we established that nothing really got "killed". Some got possibly "weakened" by a degree or two, but I can't think of a single card that went from decently viable to straight out "suck" with the new rules. Yeah, you can't chump, kill and get a sac effect now -- but still getting the block and the effect is good enough for me, and in all honestly, makes 10x more sense.
There's a couple cards that benefited, albeit slightly from the rule changes, namely Wake Thrasher because of the "no mana burn" rule. Besides that, there's nothing that jumps out (that we've found yet anyways) other than putting an Armadillo Cloak on a Knight of Meadowgrain.
Other than my slight confusion earlier, I'm fine with the new rules. I'm happy that as gargantuan as they seemed that nothing got infinitely worse or better, and the game got more simple.
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
I never played Rainbow Efreet as a 3-Power un-killable WALL before, so her function has not changed one bit for me. She's still a 3-Power un-killable flying win condition... and she's amazing at being that.
and i'm pretty sure that worked even before M10 as both the lifelink ability on the knight and the gain life ability on the cloak would trigger. it's the same thing now, except only the ability from the cloak will actually trigger and go on the stack.
Wihout actually killing damage-based sweepers (Pyroclasm, Firespout, etc) because they are so good and should remain in cubes, how do you view the new blocking rule (where you can't distribute points where you wish in a multiblock) affecting these types of spells, in the sense that they can't be used effectively to take down larger creatures like they could under the old rule?
I know this didn't happen often, and in fact it was pretty rare; but the fact that I remember those moves very vividly and fondly means that they were very cool to figure out and quite satisfying when they panned out.
Primary and only casual rule: "any rule that is fine for the most part of the playgroup, is a fine rule". So any further thread with: "if somebody uses/does .... in a casual game, is it ethical/ok?", read the answer above.
- Being a "Johnny/Spike" means you like self-torture. You win often in casual, so everybody hates you; you loose often in competitive, so you hate yourself.
Good grief, it looks like Lightning Bolt IS being reprinted in M10. Weird. I never thought I'd see the day... I hope Wizards know what they're doing. They just obsoleted Shock and near-obsoleted Incinerate, which are both great cards.
Well I look forward to getting my mitts on a shiny one. The new art is tasty.
I'm willing to bet Wizards has seen their Core sets drop in sales dramatically since Revised, possibly picking up a hair in 8th. So they asked themselves, "What can we do differently to actually sell these sets to the hardcore instead of targetting just the casual?" Answer: Overhaul the whole thing. Keep with the "introductory" type cards for the casual/new player, throw in 10-15 badass cards so that the hardcore can't ignore the set. Planeswalkers was a start. Dual lands that'll end up being somewhere between Revised Duals and Shock Lands? That made the hardcore tilt their head and raise an eyebrow. Lightning Bolt? Yeah, that'll make the hardcore pay attention.
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
I won't believe Lightning Bolt makes a comeback until I hold one in my hands. What 1cc or 2cc burn spells would they print in, say, Zen, if they put Lightning Bolt in M10?
Dual lands that'll end up being somewhere between Revised Duals and Shock Lands?
The new duals do not have the basic land types. If you play a new dual that provides two of your splash colours, it will enter the battlefield tapped more often than not. I think I'd rather play original duals, fetchlands, bouncelands, filters, vivid lands, shocks, shard lands and even pain lands in my cube.
On the other hand, I can see the new ones are good when you play them with one colour beeing your main colour. But, I don't think this new duals will kill any lands in my cube (back to topic, in a way :D)
Good grief, it looks like Lightning Bolt IS being reprinted in M10. Weird. I never thought I'd see the day... I hope Wizards know what they're doing. They just obsoleted Shock and near-obsoleted Incinerate, which are both great cards.
Well I look forward to getting my mitts on a shiny one. The new art is tasty.
I'm not complaining - means I can now get a foil Lightning Bolt for my cube!!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Just in case there is any confusion still in this regard:
source
i did have it come up once, however, and it was the only time the M10 rules really mattered. (and to be honest, i'm not sure if we played it correctly. do inform me if i'm wrong here) i swung w/ an armadillo cloaked kird ape (4/5, i have a forest). my opponent blocked with skeletal vampire and the two tokens. i chose vamp then token for blocker order. damage resolves, vamp takes 3, token takes 1, ape takes 5, he loses all but one token, i lose ape, gain life ability from cloak hits the stack, i gain 4 life. this would have worked out a lot better for him prior to M10 as he could have stacked damage and then sac'd a token a keep his vamp. now, if he wants to kill my ape, he has to let all of the damage resolve. if he sacs a token to regenerate his vampire, he loses a point of damage and my kird ape lives. i don't think theres a chance for him to sac a token to save his vamp post damage.
anyway... seeing as how we did two drafts with the cube and then played a few games with actual constructed (legacy) decks and that was the only time the M10 rules actually mattered, i'll give them a fair chance. i really don't think it's going to affect gameplay that much.
calibretto
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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If he felt the need to block, and had the 3BB, couldn't he have pitched Token #2 to generate Tokens #3 and #4, then pitched one of those to regenerate his Batman?
If you assigned them in order of Batman -> Token #1 -> Token #2, Batman and Token #1 deal their damage, Token #1 is dead, but since you're going to lose Token #2 anyways, why not pitch it to save the 3/3 guy? It's still not 5 total damage from the Batman/Tokens, but you're boy would've saved the 3/3 token-generating flyer. The absolute worst case is that he doesn't have the 3BB and has to pitch Token #2 to save the Batman.
In either case, given what's on the board and not taking spells into account, he has no way to deal 5 to your Kird Ape without losing his board (unless he has a $#!t-ton of mana). It depends what was more important to him at the time.
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
oh, he had to kill the ape. and i don't remember exactly, but i'm pretty sure he didn't have the five mana up to sac a token. but i do suppose that if he had the mana, he could have sac'd one to make two more. sac'd one of those to throw the regen shield around vamp and then declared blockers. of course, if that were the case i would have ordered them differently. (token, token, vamp since the vamp's gonna live anyway from regen)
calibretto
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Some other cards from my Cube I am hesitating about: Barrin, Master Wizard , Rainbow Efreet, Yavimaya Elder , Spike Feeder.
Do you think these have been weakened too much?
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
the only one of those creatures that we currently include in our cube is yavimaya elder and we have no plans on removing him. just because he's no longer able to chump an X/2 and kill it while still fetching up some land and drawing a card doesn't mean he's not cube worthy. he's still two for one card advantage and that's still pretty good. also, you can still chump a bigger dude with him and then sac for the abilities. he may not deal damage, but damage probably won't matter there.
as has been stated before... a lot of creatures were affected by the M10 rules change, but i don't think any of them were made so bad that they should be removed entirely from the cube.
EDIT: also in the case of DerBK's chump block in the SkeleVamp scenario, remember that it's still possible to chump and then sac the token before damage. the attacking 5/5 is still considered blocked. if there's no trample involved, that's still an excellent play. they tap their 5/5 and you end up w/ an extra dude... seems good, no?
calibretto
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Nothing was hurt by M10 so bad that it needs to be cut. There are cards that were underwhelming before that maybe could afford to go now that M10 changes some of their functionality. But that's because the card was sub par anyways... not because M10 "killed" it.
Cards that were difinitely cube-worthy before still are. Cards that were on the bubble of needing to be cut anyways could possibly get pushed over the edge.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
There's a couple cards that benefited, albeit slightly from the rule changes, namely Wake Thrasher because of the "no mana burn" rule. Besides that, there's nothing that jumps out (that we've found yet anyways) other than putting an Armadillo Cloak on a Knight of Meadowgrain.
Other than my slight confusion earlier, I'm fine with the new rules. I'm happy that as gargantuan as they seemed that nothing got infinitely worse or better, and the game got more simple.
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
and i'm pretty sure that worked even before M10 as both the lifelink ability on the knight and the gain life ability on the cloak would trigger. it's the same thing now, except only the ability from the cloak will actually trigger and go on the stack.
calibretto
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
I know this didn't happen often, and in fact it was pretty rare; but the fact that I remember those moves very vividly and fondly means that they were very cool to figure out and quite satisfying when they panned out.
Yeah but really it only affects like Akroma so...
Well I look forward to getting my mitts on a shiny one. The new art is tasty.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
The new duals do not have the basic land types. If you play a new dual that provides two of your splash colours, it will enter the battlefield tapped more often than not. I think I'd rather play original duals, fetchlands, bouncelands, filters, vivid lands, shocks, shard lands and even pain lands in my cube.
On the other hand, I can see the new ones are good when you play them with one colour beeing your main colour. But, I don't think this new duals will kill any lands in my cube (back to topic, in a way :D)
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
I'm not complaining - means I can now get a foil Lightning Bolt for my cube!!
You can already get foil Lightning Bolts...
And, I'll believe it when I see it. Until I'm holding an M10 LB in my hand, they don't exist.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!