With Spirit Loop it is the creature that is gaining you life. With Spirit Link, it is the enchantment.
Spirit Link does not grant Lifelink and i would expect it to still be a triggered ability that goes over the stack after M10.
When I read cards in Gatherer, it would be wise for me to read the Oracle text instead of the card itself. I was reading the cards and they're worded exactly the same...duh.
I get it now in that Spirit Loop gives Lifelink and Spirit Link gives the whole wording.
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When I read cards in Gatherer, it would be wise for me to read the Oracle text instead of the card itself. I was reading the cards and they're worded exactly the same...duh.
I get it now in that Spirit Loop gives Lifelink and Spirit Link gives the whole wording.
ok... wow... i just read the oracle for both cards and i gotta say that's about the dumbest bunch of ******** i've ever read.
so... both were orginally printed with "whenever this creature deals damage you gain that much life." then, they invented the keyword lifelink. for some reason, spirit loop got errata and spirit link did not. what the hell sense does that make? absolutely zero, imo.
i totally understand that prior to this spirit link could be used as a sort of pseudo pacifism on an opponent's creature unless, of course, i was at a very low life and that creature could hit me for lethal. i would take damage and then gain life. if the damage was enough to kill me, then i wasn't around to gain the life. now, however, the life is gained simultaneously, so spirit link got a bit better when being used as a pseudo pacifism. it's now impossible for the creature to hit me for lethal before i gain the life.
but a creature having lifelink AND "whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life" seems redundant and stupid. especially since there's now a keyword for that ability.
that makes about as much sense as a creature having haste AND "this creature can attack and tap the turn it comes into play."
The thing with lifelink that people most people don't notice is that its a triggered ability, unlike most abilities which are static. Since its a triggered ability, it can stack. static abilities can't stack while triggered abilities can
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ok... wow... i just read the oracle for both cards and i gotta say that's about the dumbest bunch of ******** i've ever read.
so... both were orginally printed with "whenever this creature deals damage you gain that much life." then, they invented the keyword lifelink. for some reason, spirit loop got errata and spirit link did not. what the hell sense does that make? absolutely zero, imo.
i totally understand that prior to this spirit link could be used as a sort of pseudo pacifism on an opponent's creature unless, of course, i was at a very low life and that creature could hit me for lethal. i would take damage and then gain life. if the damage was enough to kill me, then i wasn't around to gain the life. now, however, the life is gained simultaneously, so spirit link got a bit better when being used as a pseudo pacifism. it's now impossible for the creature to hit me for lethal before i gain the life.
but a creature having lifelink AND "whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life" seems redundant and stupid. especially since there's now a keyword for that ability.
that makes about as much sense as a creature having haste AND "this creature can attack and tap the turn it comes into play."
calibretto
QFFT.
And somehow, this has made the game more intuitive?
This lifelink this has me more confused than anything.
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Flying doesn't stack, and now neither does Lifelink. It's that simple. However, because damage doesn't stack anymore, the trigger for the lifelink happens at the same time the damage does. If you're at 3, and you have a 5/5 Lifelink out, and your opponent attacks you for 8 (with 2 4/4s say), you block, everything deals damage at the same time, lifelink triggers and you go to 4.
Not in any way complicated. In fact, ALL of the M10 rules simplify the game.
Flying doesn't stack, and now neither does Lifelink. It's that simple. However, because damage doesn't stack anymore, the trigger for the lifelink happens at the same time the damage does. If you're at 3, and you have a 5/5 Lifelink out, and your opponent attacks you for 8 (with 2 4/4s say), you block, everything deals damage at the same time, lifelink triggers and you go to 4.
Not in any way complicated. In fact, ALL of the M10 rules simplify the game.
i think you misunderstand, sir. that's not the confusing part... at least, that's not the confusing part for me.
the confusing part is how something like spirit link could be left out of the errata. spirit loop, a card that was essentially designed (and named appropriately) to be a rancor version of spirit link, got the errata. that card was printed saying "when enchanted creature deals damage, you gain that much life." after giving us lifelink as a keyword, it's oracle is now worded "enchanted creature has lifelink." spirit link, on the other other hand, was printed (technically) with the wording "when enchanted creature deals damage, you gain that much life." the lifelink oracle update did not change this card for whatever reason. that, sir, makes zero sense at all and is confusing as all hell. so now, i can put a spirit link on my lifelink creature and gain double life? throw a spirit link on my knight of meadowgrain and gain four everytime i attack? that's absolutely busted!
do cards not printed w/ the lifelink keyword now revert back to "whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life"? or do their oracle updates remain intact? the fact that the new rules say that double lifelink is now impossible, but cards like spirit link making it very possible is what is absolutely confusing.
The reason I have heard spirit loop has been given life link appose to spirit link which gives the full text is because spirit loop can only be played on a creature you control, so in theory it doesn't matter.
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The reason I have heard spirit loop has been given life link appose to spirit link which gives the full text is because spirit loop can only be played on a creature you control, so in theory it doesn't matter.
a valid point, but it seems that spirit link was left off the "to errata" list when lifelink became a valid keyword. the fact that spirit link can be played on an opposing creature really shouldn't change the oracle update. up until now this update (or lack thereof) hasn't really made much of a difference (or really even came to my attention). now it seems that spirit link, when combined w/ something that has lifelink, is absolutely busted. assuming, of course, that it actually works that way and having both lifelink and "whenever this creature deals damage you gain that much life" technically grants the creature two instances of the ability.
since wtwlf123 gave the flying analogy, i'll give my own flying analogy. lifelink is now like flying. sure. it's static and cannot be initiated twice. ok, i get that. two instances of the ability are redundant and mean nothing. that makes sense. but if i can somehow give the creature the full wording of the ability and the keyword of the ability it suddenly becomes relevant. now the water's getting a bit cloudy. what if i had a creature enchantment that said, "this creature can only be blocked by creatures with flying" and i put that on a flying men? does my flying men somehow suddenly have double flying? i'm gonna go ahead and say that it's highly doubtful as having both flying and "this creature can only be blocked by creatures with flying" still seems redundant and pointless. why wouldn't that be the same for lifelink now as well? if it now works the same as an ability like flying (which i agree with and think it absolutely makes sense for it to work that way), then why would throwing a spirit link on a lifelink creature work differently than the example i just gave? why would that result in an instance of 'double lifelink'?
a valid point, but it seems that spirit link was left off the "to errata" list when lifelink became a valid keyword. the fact that spirit link can be played on an opposing creature really shouldn't change the oracle update. up until now this update (or lack thereof) hasn't really made much of a difference (or really even came to my attention). now it seems that spirit link, when combined w/ something that has lifelink, is absolutely busted. assuming, of course, that it actually works that way and having both lifelink and "whenever this creature deals damage you gain that much life" technically grants the creature two instances of the ability.
since wtwlf123 gave the flying analogy, i'll give my own flying analogy. lifelink is now like flying. sure. it's static and cannot be initiated twice. ok, i get that. two instances of the ability are redundant and mean nothing. that makes sense. but if i can somehow give the creature the full wording of the ability and the keyword of the ability it suddenly becomes relevant. now the water's getting a bit cloudy. what if i had a creature enchantment that said, "this creature can only be blocked by creatures with flying" and i put that on a flying men? does my flying men somehow suddenly have double flying? i'm gonna go ahead and say that it's highly doubtful as having both flying and "this creature can only be blocked by creatures with flying" still seems redundant and pointless. why wouldn't that be the same for lifelink now as well? if it now works the same as an ability like flying (which i agree with and think it absolutely makes sense for it to work that way), then why would throwing a spirit link on a lifelink creature work differently than the example i just gave? why would that result in an instance of 'double lifelink'?
calibretto
ok, several points.
first: lifelink WAS a triggered ability, and triggered abilities trigger seperately.
second: the overall design of the cards is almost parallel, you enchant a creature and whenever it deals damage you gain life. The difference is that if you played spirit loop on an opponent's creature (I know its against the rules) then your opponent would be gaining the life due to the fact that its the creature giving you the life. If you played a spirit link on an opponents creature, you would be gaining the life since its the enchantment that gives the life gain, not the creature.
so basically. spirit loop gives the creature the life gain, while spirit link does the actual life gaining.
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ok, several points.
first: lifelink WAS a triggered ability, and triggered abilities trigger seperately.
second: the overall design of the cards is almost parallel, you enchant a creature and whenever it deals damage you gain life. The difference is that if you played spirit loop on an opponent's creature (I know its against the rules) then your opponent would be gaining the life due to the fact that its the creature giving you the life. If you played a spirit link on an opponents creature, you would be gaining the life since its the enchantment that gives the life gain, not the creature.
so basically. spirit loop gives the creature the life gain, while spirit link does the actual life gaining.
i totally understand this point as well, but still don't see how this make sense.
i'll restate my point from above. spirit loop was printed in time spiral with the exact same wording that spirit link now has from tenth. "whenever enchanted creature deals damage, you gain that much life." this effectively makes them the exact same card with the exceptions that spirit loop has the rancor ability to return to your hand if the creature were to leave play... er... the battlefield for whatever reason and you can't use loop as a pseudo pacifism like you can with link. i understand that it doesn't say "enchanted creature has..." and so it's the enchantment and not the creature that's doing the life gaining. what i'm pointing out here is that, even though the two cards were virtually the same, spirit link received zero post lifelink oracle update while spirit loop did. that is part of what makes no sense what so ever as it seems that spirit link is the only card that retained the full wording instead of updating to the shorter 'lifelink' keyword variant.
the second part of what makes zero sense is the fact that even though lifelink can now be compared to something like flying or shadow (as it should), throwing an aura with the full wording of what those two abilities do onto a creature that already has said ability means nothing, while doing the same thing for lifelilnk grants double lifelink. that being the case, the ability should not be compared to the likes of flying and shadow.
basically, what it boils down to is one simple question. why the heck was spirit link not errata'd to say "enchanted creature has lifelink" when every other aura/equipment that did the same thing got the oracle update?
i totally understand this point as well, but still don't see how this make sense.
i'll restate my point from above. spirit loop was printed in time spiral with the exact same wording that spirit link now has from tenth. "whenever enchanted creature deals damage, you gain that much life." this effectively makes them the exact same card with the exceptions that spirit loop has the rancor ability to return to your hand if the creature were to leave play... er... the battlefield for whatever reason and you can't use loop as a pseudo pacifism like you can with link. i understand that it doesn't say "enchanted creature has..." and so it's the enchantment and not the creature that's doing the life gaining. what i'm pointing out here is that, even though the two cards were virtually the same, spirit link received zero post lifelink oracle update while spirit loop did. that is part of what makes no sense what so ever as it seems that spirit link is the only card that retained the full wording instead of updating to the shorter 'lifelink' keyword variant.
the second part of what makes zero sense is the fact that even though lifelink can now be compared to something like flying or shadow (as it should), throwing an aura with the full wording of what those two abilities do onto a creature that already has said ability means nothing, while doing the same thing for lifelilnk grants double lifelink. that being the case, the ability should not be compared to the likes of flying and shadow.
basically, what it boils down to is one simple question. why the heck was spirit link not errata'd to say "enchanted creature has lifelink" when every other aura/equipment that did the same thing got the oracle update?
calibretto
In either case the idea is to gain you life, not necessarily the controller of the creature. They did not give in an errata in order to keep it's original functionality. If they were to errata it to "enchanted creature has lifelink" then it would be significantly different from its original meaning. Spirit loop gets the errata because it doesn't significantly change it's functionality - to gain you life. Even though the creature (not spirit loop) gains you the actual life, It's still intended for you to gain the life. Spirit link on the otherhand, would lose a significant amount of its ability to work the way they intended for it to do if the creature gained the life (since you couldn't use it as a psuedo-pacifism)
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In either case the idea is to gain you life, not necessarily the controller of the creature. They did not give in an errata in order to keep it's original functionality. If they were to errata it to "enchanted creature has lifelink" then it would be significantly different from its original meaning. Spirit loop gets the errata because it doesn't significantly change it's functionality - to gain you life. Even though the creature (not spirit loop) gains you the actual life, It's still intended for you to gain the life. Spirit link on the otherhand, would lose a significant amount of its ability to work the way they intended for it to do if the creature gained the life (since you couldn't use it as a psuedo-pacifism)
i don't think that's the reasoning behind the lack of errata. i'll let loxodon warhammer serve to prove my point here. the 10th version of this card changed from the original wording to lifelink. it also has reminder text. the reminder text is basically the exact same wording. if i equip warhammer to my creature and then my opponent takes control of that creature with a control magic the lifelilnk ability still works the same as it would if i had enchanted my opponent's creature with a spirit link. i'm the controller of the warhammer, so i gain the life. one would think that, had spirit link gotten the errata, its tenth wording would say "enchanted creature has lifelink. (whenever it deals damage you gain that much life)". given that the reminder text there is virtually the same as the original text, i don't see how an errata would change the functionality at all.
i don't think that's the reasoning behind the lack of errata. i'll let loxodon warhammer serve to prove my point here. the 10th version of this card changed from the original wording to lifelink. it also has reminder text. the reminder text is basically the exact same wording. if i equip warhammer to my creature and then my opponent takes control of that creature with a control magic the lifelilnk ability still works the same as it would if i had enchanted my opponent's creature with a spirit link. i'm the controller of the warhammer, so i gain the life. one would think that, had spirit link gotten the errata, its tenth wording would say "enchanted creature has lifelink. (whenever it deals damage you gain that much life)". given that the reminder text there is virtually the same as the original text, i don't see how an errata would change the functionality at all.
calibretto
actually, since the warhammer gives the creature lifelink, and the creature is controlled by an opponent, your opponent would gain the life not you. If the card says "has lifelink" then that means the creature it is affecting will be the one gaining the life, If it says "you gain that much life" then the card(first one, not the effected one) is the one gaining you the life.
:edit:
also note that the warhammer's reminder text is describing what it is giving to the creature, not what the hammer specifically does.
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actually, since the warhammer gives the creature lifelink, and the creature is controlled by an opponent, your opponent would gain the life not you. If the card says "has lifelink" then that means the creature it is affecting will be the one gaining the life, If it says "you gain that much life" then the card(first one, not the effected one) is the one gaining you the life.
so why does the reminder text for lifelink still say "you gain that much life"? that's where it doesn't make sense to me that the opponent would gain the life in that instance. in fact, that's absolutely stupid. it specifically says YOU gain that much life which is exactly how spirit link is worded. in the past 'you' has always been understood to mean the controller of whatever card it's printed on. i don't understand how giving something a keyword changes it's functionality. it should still do the exact same thing, the keyword just shortens the wording on the card.
EDIT: i just checked another popular spirit link like card, armadillo cloak and it is lacking in the lifelink keyword as well. it seems that you are correct as that's the only reason i can imagine that the oracle wording would not be updated for the cards that can be attached to opposing creatures, but would be updated for cards that can only be attached to creatures you control.
that still doesn't change the fact that putting a spirit link on my own creature with lifelink gives the creature double lifelink which makes cards like spirit link and armadillo cloak a little bit better. and i also feel that the lifelink keyword took a lot away from the lifelink ability, seeing as how prior to the keyword anything that granted the ability that you controlled that ended up (somehow) on a creature your opponent controlled acted exactly like a spirit link. if a keyword changes the functionality, then the keyword should not be introduced.
if you have any questions you can raise them there.
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I couldn't find in the rules changes how first strike is effected if at all. I assume it gets similarly neutered: I attack with a 2/2 first strike equipped with Umezawa's Jitte, you block with a 2/3. First strike damage hits and the Jitte triggers but since no player has priority yet it doesn't stack, then regular combat damage hits immediately killing the 2/2 first strike then you get priority and the Jitte trigger hits the stack. Which is contrary to before when the Jitte trigger would resolve before regular combat damage is even assigned.
So in the end after all is said and done the 2/2 first strike is dead, the 2/3 has 2 damage on it, and the Jitte has 2 counters...I think.
I'd hate to see how blocking in a band would work now. The attacker chooses the order they block but you choose the damage...maybe.
Knight of the Holy Nimbus is looking better and better with these new rules. Creatures stink anyway, this is an excuse to pop a mill strategy in my cube across u, b, and artifact in an effort to reduce the number of combat steps. Maybe Fatespinner, Peacekeeper, Moat, Propaganda, Windborn Muse too.
Focus more on the cards that M10 will make better and not the cards that downgrade ldo.
I couldn't find in the rules changes how first strike is effected if at all. I assume it gets similarly neutered: I attack with a 2/2 first strike equipped with Umezawa's Jitte, you block with a 2/3. First strike damage hits and the Jitte triggers but since no player has priority yet it doesn't stack, then regular combat damage hits immediately killing the 2/2 first strike then you get priority and the Jitte trigger hits the stack. Which is contrary to before when the Jitte trigger would resolve before regular combat damage is even assigned.
So in the end after all is said and done the 2/2 first strike is dead, the 2/3 has 2 damage on it, and the Jitte has 2 counters...I think.
I'd hate to see how blocking in a band would work now. The attacker chooses the order they block but you choose the damage...maybe.
Knight of the Holy Nimbus is looking better and better with these new rules. Creatures stink anyway, this is an excuse to pop a mill strategy in my cube across u, b, and artifact in an effort to reduce the number of combat steps. Maybe Fatespinner, Peacekeeper, Moat, Propaganda, Windborn Muse too.
Focus more on the cards that M10 will make better and not the cards that downgrade ldo.
i'm pretty sure there's still a period in between first strike damage and normal damage where you have the option of casting spells or activating abilities. given that info, i would think that jitte would still work the same way on a first striker. the jitte would trigger during this time between first strike and regular damage.
although, i'm apparantly wrong about lifelink as we proved above, so i could be wrong about this as well.
I'm 100% sure you can still play something between the damage dealing of a double striker. The rules (as they currently are) create an additional combat damage step if there's a double striker in combat. The new rules change what the combat damage step does i.e.: dealing damage immediately instead of putting it on the stack.
They didn't mention they were going to change that, so they won't.
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How can it possibly be confusing when a LOT of cards will work EXACTLY how they're written?
If that's the standard, as I understand it -- the cards work exactly how they're printed, then there is no confusion.
But going with the Spirit Link/Spirit Loop example we had, it's obvious that the difference is the Loop cannot target opponent's creatures. It makes sense and it's a valid point as to why it got the errata and Spirit Link didn't. I also understand that the controller of the card with the ability gains the life.
What will be confusing (for a while until I get it straightened out in my dome) is what cards will be reverting back to the "deals damage gain that much life" text versus ones that have the Lifelink errata -- such as Loxodon Warhammer, it was the full text, then it got the errata but it's staying in the errata state right? If that's the case, why is Armadillo Cloak reverting back to printed form? That's the $#!t that's confusing to me -- what gets what?
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Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
That's the difference? "It's controller" = Lifelink, "You" = totally different, stackable effect which can be used in combination with Lifelink.
which is dumb, imo. the keyword should never have been introduced if it changed the entire functionality of the ability.
i've recently been informed that the mirrodin loxodon warhammer was printed differently. it was printed with, "equipped creature has...." and not "whenever equipped creature deals damage....". so one could just replace it with the card spirit loop in my control magic example from above. i know for a fact that spirit loop was printed in time spiral with the same exact wording that spirit link was printed with in tenth. so, if someone took my creature enchanted with spirit loop pre-errata, i would gain the life. post errata, they gain the life. which brings me back to the point that the keyword completely changed the funtionality of the ability. in some instances, the key word makes it a bit better, and in others it seems that it made it quite worse.
oh and silent, armadillo cloak never go the errata either. i'm pretty sure at this point that whoever originally said that some cards were reverting back to the orginal text and losing the lifelink keyword, was pretty much full of crap and didn't know what they were talking about. i don't think anything is reverting back. the main point here is you can enchant a lifelink creature with something like armadillo cloak or spirit link and end up with double lifelink. which is also absolutely ridiculous since they were trying to take this possibility out of the game by not stacking the lifelink ability.
EDIT: allow me to eat humbly eat my words. ok... so it appears the I am the one who is full of crap and doesn't know what he's talking about.
after some research, i've discoverd the following. cards like exalted angel that were originally printed with "whenever this creature deals damage you gain that much life." are going to be unerrata'd from lifelink back to the old wording. cards that were printed with lifelink will retain their lifelink ability. this is because the rules change effectively changes the way lifelink works. lifelink is no longer the short form of "whenver this creature deals damage you gain that much life." it's now the short form of "damage dealt by this creature also causes you to gain that much life." the only exception to this rule will be loxodon warhammer. despite originally being printed with the full wording, it will retain it's lifelink oracle. their reasoning for this is that it was printed with the lifelink wording, while the other errata'd cards were not.
now... i'll go on record as being the first to say that an unerrata is not warranted here. as both of those phrases basically say the same thing, two different ways. i don't understand the unerrata at all, nor do i agree with it. all they needed to change was that lifelink no longer uses the stack. so basically the old lifelinker's still use the stack, and the new lifelinker's don't. any questions?
All I know is, both Su-Chi and Cathodian are now in my cube. No mana burn means that any deck that wants to has access to a 3/3 for 3, or a 4/4 for 4...I'm actually more concerned about this then anything else...Baloth is weakened a little bit, as is Mogg Fanatic, but nothing else is effected in a relevant way.
All I know is, both Su-Chi and Cathodian are now in my cube. No mana burn means that any deck that wants to has access to a 3/3 for 3, or a 4/4 for 4...I'm actually more concerned about this then anything else...Baloth is weakened a little bit, as is Mogg Fanatic, but nothing else is effected in a relevant way.
All I know is, both Su-Chi and Cathodian are now in my cube. No mana burn means that any deck that wants to has access to a 3/3 for 3, or a 4/4 for 4...I'm actually more concerned about this then anything else...Baloth is weakened a little bit, as is Mogg Fanatic, but nothing else is effected in a relevant way.
Many, many magic cards were effected to the same degree as Baloth. I'm going to assume some are in your cube.
When I read cards in Gatherer, it would be wise for me to read the Oracle text instead of the card itself. I was reading the cards and they're worded exactly the same...duh.
I get it now in that Spirit Loop gives Lifelink and Spirit Link gives the whole wording.
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ok... wow... i just read the oracle for both cards and i gotta say that's about the dumbest bunch of ******** i've ever read.
so... both were orginally printed with "whenever this creature deals damage you gain that much life." then, they invented the keyword lifelink. for some reason, spirit loop got errata and spirit link did not. what the hell sense does that make? absolutely zero, imo.
i totally understand that prior to this spirit link could be used as a sort of pseudo pacifism on an opponent's creature unless, of course, i was at a very low life and that creature could hit me for lethal. i would take damage and then gain life. if the damage was enough to kill me, then i wasn't around to gain the life. now, however, the life is gained simultaneously, so spirit link got a bit better when being used as a pseudo pacifism. it's now impossible for the creature to hit me for lethal before i gain the life.
but a creature having lifelink AND "whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life" seems redundant and stupid. especially since there's now a keyword for that ability.
that makes about as much sense as a creature having haste AND "this creature can attack and tap the turn it comes into play."
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QFFT.
And somehow, this has made the game more intuitive?
This lifelink this has me more confused than anything.
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It's now a static ability like Flying.
Flying doesn't stack, and now neither does Lifelink. It's that simple. However, because damage doesn't stack anymore, the trigger for the lifelink happens at the same time the damage does. If you're at 3, and you have a 5/5 Lifelink out, and your opponent attacks you for 8 (with 2 4/4s say), you block, everything deals damage at the same time, lifelink triggers and you go to 4.
Not in any way complicated. In fact, ALL of the M10 rules simplify the game.
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i think you misunderstand, sir. that's not the confusing part... at least, that's not the confusing part for me.
the confusing part is how something like spirit link could be left out of the errata. spirit loop, a card that was essentially designed (and named appropriately) to be a rancor version of spirit link, got the errata. that card was printed saying "when enchanted creature deals damage, you gain that much life." after giving us lifelink as a keyword, it's oracle is now worded "enchanted creature has lifelink." spirit link, on the other other hand, was printed (technically) with the wording "when enchanted creature deals damage, you gain that much life." the lifelink oracle update did not change this card for whatever reason. that, sir, makes zero sense at all and is confusing as all hell. so now, i can put a spirit link on my lifelink creature and gain double life? throw a spirit link on my knight of meadowgrain and gain four everytime i attack? that's absolutely busted!
do cards not printed w/ the lifelink keyword now revert back to "whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life"? or do their oracle updates remain intact? the fact that the new rules say that double lifelink is now impossible, but cards like spirit link making it very possible is what is absolutely confusing.
calibretto
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a valid point, but it seems that spirit link was left off the "to errata" list when lifelink became a valid keyword. the fact that spirit link can be played on an opposing creature really shouldn't change the oracle update. up until now this update (or lack thereof) hasn't really made much of a difference (or really even came to my attention). now it seems that spirit link, when combined w/ something that has lifelink, is absolutely busted. assuming, of course, that it actually works that way and having both lifelink and "whenever this creature deals damage you gain that much life" technically grants the creature two instances of the ability.
since wtwlf123 gave the flying analogy, i'll give my own flying analogy. lifelink is now like flying. sure. it's static and cannot be initiated twice. ok, i get that. two instances of the ability are redundant and mean nothing. that makes sense. but if i can somehow give the creature the full wording of the ability and the keyword of the ability it suddenly becomes relevant. now the water's getting a bit cloudy. what if i had a creature enchantment that said, "this creature can only be blocked by creatures with flying" and i put that on a flying men? does my flying men somehow suddenly have double flying? i'm gonna go ahead and say that it's highly doubtful as having both flying and "this creature can only be blocked by creatures with flying" still seems redundant and pointless. why wouldn't that be the same for lifelink now as well? if it now works the same as an ability like flying (which i agree with and think it absolutely makes sense for it to work that way), then why would throwing a spirit link on a lifelink creature work differently than the example i just gave? why would that result in an instance of 'double lifelink'?
calibretto
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ok, several points.
first: lifelink WAS a triggered ability, and triggered abilities trigger seperately.
second: the overall design of the cards is almost parallel, you enchant a creature and whenever it deals damage you gain life. The difference is that if you played spirit loop on an opponent's creature (I know its against the rules) then your opponent would be gaining the life due to the fact that its the creature giving you the life. If you played a spirit link on an opponents creature, you would be gaining the life since its the enchantment that gives the life gain, not the creature.
so basically. spirit loop gives the creature the life gain, while spirit link does the actual life gaining.
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i totally understand this point as well, but still don't see how this make sense.
i'll restate my point from above. spirit loop was printed in time spiral with the exact same wording that spirit link now has from tenth. "whenever enchanted creature deals damage, you gain that much life." this effectively makes them the exact same card with the exceptions that spirit loop has the rancor ability to return to your hand if the creature were to leave play... er... the battlefield for whatever reason and you can't use loop as a pseudo pacifism like you can with link. i understand that it doesn't say "enchanted creature has..." and so it's the enchantment and not the creature that's doing the life gaining. what i'm pointing out here is that, even though the two cards were virtually the same, spirit link received zero post lifelink oracle update while spirit loop did. that is part of what makes no sense what so ever as it seems that spirit link is the only card that retained the full wording instead of updating to the shorter 'lifelink' keyword variant.
the second part of what makes zero sense is the fact that even though lifelink can now be compared to something like flying or shadow (as it should), throwing an aura with the full wording of what those two abilities do onto a creature that already has said ability means nothing, while doing the same thing for lifelilnk grants double lifelink. that being the case, the ability should not be compared to the likes of flying and shadow.
basically, what it boils down to is one simple question. why the heck was spirit link not errata'd to say "enchanted creature has lifelink" when every other aura/equipment that did the same thing got the oracle update?
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In either case the idea is to gain you life, not necessarily the controller of the creature. They did not give in an errata in order to keep it's original functionality. If they were to errata it to "enchanted creature has lifelink" then it would be significantly different from its original meaning. Spirit loop gets the errata because it doesn't significantly change it's functionality - to gain you life. Even though the creature (not spirit loop) gains you the actual life, It's still intended for you to gain the life. Spirit link on the otherhand, would lose a significant amount of its ability to work the way they intended for it to do if the creature gained the life (since you couldn't use it as a psuedo-pacifism)
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
i don't think that's the reasoning behind the lack of errata. i'll let loxodon warhammer serve to prove my point here. the 10th version of this card changed from the original wording to lifelink. it also has reminder text. the reminder text is basically the exact same wording. if i equip warhammer to my creature and then my opponent takes control of that creature with a control magic the lifelilnk ability still works the same as it would if i had enchanted my opponent's creature with a spirit link. i'm the controller of the warhammer, so i gain the life. one would think that, had spirit link gotten the errata, its tenth wording would say "enchanted creature has lifelink. (whenever it deals damage you gain that much life)". given that the reminder text there is virtually the same as the original text, i don't see how an errata would change the functionality at all.
calibretto
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actually, since the warhammer gives the creature lifelink, and the creature is controlled by an opponent, your opponent would gain the life not you. If the card says "has lifelink" then that means the creature it is affecting will be the one gaining the life, If it says "you gain that much life" then the card(first one, not the effected one) is the one gaining you the life.
:edit:
also note that the warhammer's reminder text is describing what it is giving to the creature, not what the hammer specifically does.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
so why does the reminder text for lifelink still say "you gain that much life"? that's where it doesn't make sense to me that the opponent would gain the life in that instance. in fact, that's absolutely stupid. it specifically says YOU gain that much life which is exactly how spirit link is worded. in the past 'you' has always been understood to mean the controller of whatever card it's printed on. i don't understand how giving something a keyword changes it's functionality. it should still do the exact same thing, the keyword just shortens the wording on the card.
EDIT: i just checked another popular spirit link like card, armadillo cloak and it is lacking in the lifelink keyword as well. it seems that you are correct as that's the only reason i can imagine that the oracle wording would not be updated for the cards that can be attached to opposing creatures, but would be updated for cards that can only be attached to creatures you control.
that still doesn't change the fact that putting a spirit link on my own creature with lifelink gives the creature double lifelink which makes cards like spirit link and armadillo cloak a little bit better. and i also feel that the lifelink keyword took a lot away from the lifelink ability, seeing as how prior to the keyword anything that granted the ability that you controlled that ended up (somehow) on a creature your opponent controlled acted exactly like a spirit link. if a keyword changes the functionality, then the keyword should not be introduced.
calibretto
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if you have any questions you can raise them there.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
So in the end after all is said and done the 2/2 first strike is dead, the 2/3 has 2 damage on it, and the Jitte has 2 counters...I think.
I'd hate to see how blocking in a band would work now. The attacker chooses the order they block but you choose the damage...maybe.
Knight of the Holy Nimbus is looking better and better with these new rules. Creatures stink anyway, this is an excuse to pop a mill strategy in my cube across u, b, and artifact in an effort to reduce the number of combat steps. Maybe Fatespinner, Peacekeeper, Moat, Propaganda, Windborn Muse too.
Focus more on the cards that M10 will make better and not the cards that downgrade ldo.
i'm pretty sure there's still a period in between first strike damage and normal damage where you have the option of casting spells or activating abilities. given that info, i would think that jitte would still work the same way on a first striker. the jitte would trigger during this time between first strike and regular damage.
although, i'm apparantly wrong about lifelink as we proved above, so i could be wrong about this as well.
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They didn't mention they were going to change that, so they won't.
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If that's the standard, as I understand it -- the cards work exactly how they're printed, then there is no confusion.
But going with the Spirit Link/Spirit Loop example we had, it's obvious that the difference is the Loop cannot target opponent's creatures. It makes sense and it's a valid point as to why it got the errata and Spirit Link didn't. I also understand that the controller of the card with the ability gains the life.
What will be confusing (for a while until I get it straightened out in my dome) is what cards will be reverting back to the "deals damage gain that much life" text versus ones that have the Lifelink errata -- such as Loxodon Warhammer, it was the full text, then it got the errata but it's staying in the errata state right? If that's the case, why is Armadillo Cloak reverting back to printed form? That's the $#!t that's confusing to me -- what gets what?
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
It's in the description of "its controller" versus "you" in the gain life text.
That's the difference? "It's controller" = Lifelink, "You" = totally different, stackable effect which can be used in combination with Lifelink.
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
which is dumb, imo. the keyword should never have been introduced if it changed the entire functionality of the ability.
i've recently been informed that the mirrodin loxodon warhammer was printed differently. it was printed with, "equipped creature has...." and not "whenever equipped creature deals damage....". so one could just replace it with the card spirit loop in my control magic example from above. i know for a fact that spirit loop was printed in time spiral with the same exact wording that spirit link was printed with in tenth. so, if someone took my creature enchanted with spirit loop pre-errata, i would gain the life. post errata, they gain the life. which brings me back to the point that the keyword completely changed the funtionality of the ability. in some instances, the key word makes it a bit better, and in others it seems that it made it quite worse.
oh and silent, armadillo cloak never go the errata either. i'm pretty sure at this point that whoever originally said that some cards were reverting back to the orginal text and losing the lifelink keyword, was pretty much full of crap and didn't know what they were talking about. i don't think anything is reverting back. the main point here is you can enchant a lifelink creature with something like armadillo cloak or spirit link and end up with double lifelink. which is also absolutely ridiculous since they were trying to take this possibility out of the game by not stacking the lifelink ability.
EDIT: allow me to eat humbly eat my words. ok... so it appears the I am the one who is full of crap and doesn't know what he's talking about.
after some research, i've discoverd the following. cards like exalted angel that were originally printed with "whenever this creature deals damage you gain that much life." are going to be unerrata'd from lifelink back to the old wording. cards that were printed with lifelink will retain their lifelink ability. this is because the rules change effectively changes the way lifelink works. lifelink is no longer the short form of "whenver this creature deals damage you gain that much life." it's now the short form of "damage dealt by this creature also causes you to gain that much life." the only exception to this rule will be loxodon warhammer. despite originally being printed with the full wording, it will retain it's lifelink oracle. their reasoning for this is that it was printed with the lifelink wording, while the other errata'd cards were not.
now... i'll go on record as being the first to say that an unerrata is not warranted here. as both of those phrases basically say the same thing, two different ways. i don't understand the unerrata at all, nor do i agree with it. all they needed to change was that lifelink no longer uses the stack. so basically the old lifelinker's still use the stack, and the new lifelinker's don't. any questions?
calibretto
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Many, many magic cards were effected to the same degree as Baloth. I'm going to assume some are in your cube.
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