This is the rationale that my group has for leaving out power, (among other things):
If we assume that degenerate things are possible, that's all well and good if both players are able to pull crazy stuff off. But since cube is a singleton format, it is much more likely for one player to do something crazy than both. The example that gets tossed around is a bad deck that happens to have Ancestral Recall in it - if they draw it every game in the first 3 turns, they probably win every game, and if they don't they lose. So the argument stems from the fact that if a handful (say 10) cards dominate games, and drawing them nearly always results in victory - and with only a handful of cards able to do that, luck becomes more important since drawing that card before your opponent draws his will win you the game.
This is also a buff to blue as a color, since drawing/digging/manipulation become even more important as you try to find that all-important-card.
This may be oversimplification, but this is how my playgroup feels about the whole thing.
The argument that if we take the 10 most powerful cards out, then the next 10 most powerful cards will become degenerate isn't directly true. The next 10 best cards aren't horrifically undercosted tempo or card advantage machines, which does lots for the critical turn of the game. The difference between "Forest, Birds, go" and "Land, Sol Ring, Signet" is enormous, and certainly enough to win the game. It takes a game where the critical turn is around 4 and accelerates it 2 turns. Moxes accelerate it a whole turn. This is also a hit against aggro, since lots of sweepers cost 4+ mana, and getting there faster means they can stabilize faster. The goal of the aggro deck is to win before the control deck has enough cheap answers and enough mana to play bigger effects, so a control deck with a mox essentially stabilizes a turn faster. Aggro, on the other hand, doesn't get another turn worth of attacks from a mox, just one more threat on the board (granted, the tempo advantage is quite significant, just not as much as it is for control).
Anyhow, my playgroup asked me to post this up here to see what others think about all this.
Also, for anyone who added power to their cube - Did you have to add more artifact removal?
I've recently experimented with Mana Drain back in the cube for a while, but it was far too ridiculous still, and just felt unreasonably powerful everytime it was cast. I've found cards like Umezawa's Jitte, Recurring Nightmare, Skullclamp, etc to be powerful cards that are often extremely high picks, but don't have the degenerate feel of Recall, Moxen, or Lotus.
I disagree with this completely. Jitte, Skullclamp and Nightmare are far more powerful and degenerative than a mox.
As for the arguement that once you ban a few cards, it becomes a neverending slippery slope of bannings, I have maintained a pretty standard "ban-list" for the last few years, with almost no need to modify it since that point:
1. Black Lotus
2. Time Walk
3. Sol Ring
4. Mind Twist
5. Ancestral Recall
6. Mana Crypt
7. Mana Vault
8. Library of Alexandria
9. Mox Emerald
10. Mox Sapphire
11. Mox Jet
12. Mox Ruby
13. Mox Pearl
14. Mana Drain
I've recently experimented with Mana Drain back in the cube for a while, but it was far too ridiculous still, and just felt unreasonably powerful everytime it was cast. I've found cards like Umezawa's Jitte, Recurring Nightmare, Skullclamp, etc to be powerful cards that are often extremely high picks, but don't have the degenerate feel of Recall, Moxen, or Lotus.
For the most part your 'offenders' list seems fine. I would still draft Recurring Nightmare over a Mox though. Is Gifts Ungiven also bannable?
Also, for anyone who added power to their cube - Did you have to add more artifact removal?
I try to have every 'on-a-stick' guy in my cube anyway, but I wubs ETB effects and would be running them regardless of the inclusion of moxen (since other artifacts would take their place if they were cut). If I was deliberately targetting moxen I would include Gorilla Shaman, and I did have him months ago but he got cut when I tried to power up red.
I'm convinced at this point that most power is fine. However, some are so far above the curve that they let players win with no skill at all and are simply un-fun. The ones being banned are simply too devastating on their own. I've strived to only include power that are facilitators rather than game ending spells that are nearly impossible to compete with. Here is my banned list:
Watch List: Mana Drain (currently still in my cube since it requires a true commitment to blue. Like the moxen, its a facilitator rather than an end game spell.)
All the Draw 7s are fine except Time Spiral, and even that one could come off at some point. I however, would need a green card to step up and compare to what is currently still being played before I favor blue even more. Windfall, Wheel of Fortune and Time Twister are fine since they are symmetrical, but also because many decks will splash for them. Since they are flexible as far as which colors play them I feel they are fair and do not favor blue more.
We have had Mana Drain in our cube for a while and it hasn't made nearly as big of a splash as we thought it would, and we have accepted it as not 'too' powerful for our tastes. Yawgmoth's Bargain actually got cut from our cube, and Yawgmoth's Will hasn't ever been crazy good, usually best when it allows a B/R to replay 3 burn spells or B/U to replay Brainstorm/Ponder etc.
I disagree with this completely. Jitte, Skullclamp and Nightmare are far more powerful and degenerative than a mox.
From a pure power level, I definitely agree. Most of the cards on my banned list are simply due to how fast mana on the level of moxen, lotus, and sol ring doesn't feel like traditional magic to us. Everything except Library, Ancestral, Mind Twist, and Time Walk is basically there because it accelerates one person beyond their opponent far more than we feel is acceptable. They allow the actually broken cards like Jitte, Clamp, and Nightmare, and others to come online far earlier than they were intended.
We've done it both ways, and we're doing it the way which provided more enjoyable games for us. It's not like there is actually one correct answer here for how one should construct one's cube.
I suspect there will be little changing of minds on this issue. Having said the, I built an unpowered cube, then added power, then removed power to completely deproxify, then added power back in because they were missed.
I agree up to a point that there will always be the "top cards" in a cube, and if you take them out more will take their place. It is prbably be possible to design a cube with a pretty flat power level, I don't think it would be that much fun to draft.
Since shrinking my cube to a moderate size (480 cards) power seems less relevant, as there seems to be less variance in pack power. Some cards are "unfair" but we generally find that for every game you "just win" there will be a game you "just lose". Everyone gets their chance to go broken, and we like that.
We also play a bit more multiplayer. Tempo boosts from things like moxen are less important, and if you are seen as doing too well you will attract a lot of attention.
I have not found having a powered cube to hinder the efficacy of aggro strategies. Many of the egregious cards in cube assist aggro, particularly equipment.
I can see why people don't run power if it genuinely interferes with the experience they are trying to get from cube. If you are ambivalent about whether to include powerful cards, however, I think it might be considering whether your cube actually has other issues.
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I have a powered cube, and a friend has an unpowered cube. So we get the best of both worlds.
I do think that Moxen advantages control more than Aggro however, because while both archetypes can play more powerful spells, a key part of the control came plan is to survive until phase 2, and moxen/Time Walk gets you there a whole turn faster.
The only reason I see not to include power is budget and not wanting proxies. Other than that, the cube should be about the best of the best in Magic. If the P9 isn't included in that list, then I don't know what is. I can't afford power, nor do I want cheap looking proxies in my cube, so we play without power (for now).
Also I totally agree with wtwlf on this issue. The P9 is made up of really good cards. However, there's an abundance of cards that are currently in most everyone's list that affect that game so much more than any piece of power would.
The only reason I see not to include power is budget and not wanting proxies. Other than that, the cube should be about the best of the best in Magic. If the P9 isn't included in that list, then I don't know what is. I can't afford power, nor do I want cheap looking proxies in my cube, so we play without power (for now).
Also I totally agree with wtwlf on this issue. The P9 is made up of really good cards. However, there's an abundance of cards that are currently in most everyone's list that affect that game so much more than any piece of power would.
I disagree, what worries me worst about some power is color favoritism. And even though true color balance isn't always possible it seems like a mistake to create a cube that practically forces people into blue.
The list of cards I mentioned earlier are the ones I felt pushed a player too far committed into the color regardless of the point in the draft.
So is the only reason for the creation of Legacy the monetary hurdle of getting into Vintage?
Yes!:D Sorta.
Because of the evolution of tournament types.
Tournament Types we're created to allow players to play with their collections without having to be wealthy (originally at least).
I remember when standard was today's Vintage and WotC introduced Type 2 (now known as standard) and called the standard format (vintage at that time) Type 1. If memory serves me, their explanation of creating type 2 was to allow newer players a competitive format they could reasonably get into (since the power 9 we're starting to exceed $100). Same thing happened later with extended and legacy. Ironically, with the allowing of proxies in vintage, legacy is kinda more expensive to get into now.:rolleyes:
Yes!:D Sorta.
Because of the evolution of tournament types.
Tournament Types we're created to allow players to play with their collections without having to be wealthy (originally at least).
I remember when standard was today's Vintage and WotC introduced Type 2 (now known as standard) and called the standard format (vintage at that time) Type 1. If memory serves me, their explanation of creating type 2 was to allow newer players a competitive format they could reasonably get into (since the power 9 we're starting to exceed $100). Same thing happened later with extended and legacy. Ironically, with the allowing of proxies in vintage, legacy is kinda more expensive to get into now.:rolleyes:
To respectfully disagree, Standard was the genius move that drove sales on new sets without uncontrollable power creep killing the game (until the discovery of drafting, which also drives sales of the new sets).
I've played almost all formats in magic. From T2 to T1 and drafted all formats since Invasion atleast once. All formats have different things to give, and have different power level.
In cube it's the builder that choses what he wants with it. In my main cube I want to play the most powerful stuff, so I use the power I have. In my tribal cube I want creatures to dominate the format, so there's close to no mass-removal and most of the removal are a bit overcosted on purpose.
But with the power thing i'm with many of the others, that state that you shouldn't remove power for power reasons, but rather because you don't like that they add more tempo, or that they are too expensive. Power is actually a rather misleading name as they aren't really that powerful. It's a perfectly valid argument to state:
"I choose not to play power because I don't like what it brings to the cube."
but it's a false argument to state:
"I choose not to play power because it's too powerful for the cube."
Power is not the most powerful 9 cards in the cube. I don't even think that most power are on the top 25...
I'm convinced at this point that most power is fine. However, some are so far above the curve that they let players win with no skill at all and are simply un-fun. The ones being banned are simply too devastating on their own. I've strived to only include power that are facilitators rather than game ending spells that are nearly impossible to compete with. Here is my banned list:
Watch List: Mana Drain (currently still in my cube since it requires a true commitment to blue. Like the moxen, its a facilitator rather than an end game spell.)
All the Draw 7s are fine except Time Spiral, and even that one could come off at some point. I however, would need a green card to step up and compare to what is currently still being played before I favor blue even more. Windfall, Wheel of Fortune and Time Twister are fine since they are symmetrical, but also because many decks will splash for them. Since they are flexible as far as which colors play them I feel they are fair and do not favor blue more.
Yawgmoth's Bargain has yet to be that broken for us. Time Spiral and Balance haven't been played much in my cube, I'd like to see how they play though. I like Yawgmoth's Will because it helps you run a deck with less creatures, or with just a lot of cheap creatures. It hasn't seen any play either.
Yawgmoth's Bargain has yet to be that broken for us. Time Spiral and Balance haven't been played much in my cube, I'd like to see how they play though. I like Yawgmoth's Will because it helps you run a deck with less creatures, or with just a lot of cheap creatures. It hasn't seen any play either.
So far Kiki-Jiki has been the MVP of my cube.
The ones I've mentioned have more to do with making a particular color too strong than the cards being truly dominant (the exception being Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, Tinker which are game breaking). I'd consider adding the two black cards in if I could get a few more people to agree that they are not as game warping as I think they are, but some cards will always stay on the list. I personally love blue, but I don't want the people playing to feel pressured into it.
I don't think either of the black cards are overpowered. Mind Twist and R. Nightmare beats them both.
On the blue side I don't think that either Time Walk and Tinker are overpowered either. Good yes - overpowered no.
Oh yea, forgot about mind twist, I don't have that in my cube either for the unfun factor.
I disagree with you on Tinker. I can't think of many decks that can beat turn 2-3 Sundering Titan, or Inkwell Leviathan, and to a lesser extent Sphinx of the Steel Wind. I guess if I wanted too I could take out those cards and Tinker would no longer be devastating but that seems a bit counterproductive.
Time Walk is on the list because no matter who plays it, They generally win if they know what they are doing. Thats an issue. The card reminds me of Rude Awakening but it costs only 2.
(I might still give them a 2 week trial next semester and see how good they are)
If i were to leave out power from my cube, i'd also have to remove cards like Recurring Nightmare, Mind Twist or Jitte. The P9 are not the most broken cards for cube, so leaving them out and keeping hte better stuff in is somewhat shizo.
The only two cards i considered to pass on are Lotus and Ancestral Recall as they are just so much better than their alternatives.
listen to this man.
those cards don't even start to follow any rules. They sound like cards your little brother would make up to try to beat you. time twister should be fine, timewalk is pushing it (i've heard silly stories about recurring it numerous times) I personally won't add the moxen to my cube, but they can't hurt more than sol ring. though in conjunction with sol ring mana costs will just stop mattering flat out. in any case, stuff like the moxen and black lotus only make every other card in the cube more broken, particularly mind twist. try them out, see what happens and go from there
those cards don't even start to follow any rules. They sound like cards your little brother would make up to try to beat you. time twister should be fine, timewalk is pushing it (i've heard silly stories about recurring it numerous times) I personally won't add the moxen to my cube, but they can't hurt more than sol ring. though in conjunction with sol ring mana costs will just stop mattering flat out. in any case, stuff like the moxen and black lotus only make every other card in the cube more broken, particularly mind twist. try them out, see what happens and go from there
Accellerants are not a problem, and I can only think it would be worse if you had Sol Ring but no moxen to balance its power. Timetwister is fine for sure, but I'm a little hesatant about Time Spiral. Mind Twist on the other hand is simply unfun. Playing with my friends fully powered cube I was sitting on a very very saucy 4 card hand when he mind twisted me and won the game on the spot. That happens too often with Mind Twist for my liking. I also disagree with Recurring Nightmare being as good as Mind Twist, although it is still one of the best cards in cube. Some times an opponent doesn't play into it, playing a strategy that just goes over the top. I've also had games where I just can't get it going. If not for the fact that it is easier to kill I would say Skullclamp is better than nightmare.
Oh yea, forgot about mind twist, I don't have that in my cube either for the unfun factor.
I disagree with you on Tinker. I can't think of many decks that can beat turn 2-3 Sundering Titan, or Inkwell Leviathan, and to a lesser extent Sphinx of the Steel Wind. I guess if I wanted too I could take out those cards and Tinker would no longer be devastating but that seems a bit counterproductive.
This will come up on a rarer basis than a turn one 2-power creature and turn two 2-power creature followed by a equipment. How many decks can beat that? Will that mean you remove all your critters as well? To me Tinker is less powered than a savannah lions. I've seen more games won by the lion than by Tinker. To make tinker good you have to pack your deck with cards that a suboptimal unless you draw Tinker and don't draw them. That means you will make your deck worse, to improve the Tinker...
Time Walk is on the list because no matter who plays it, They generally win if they know what they are doing. Thats an issue. The card reminds me of Rude Awakening but it costs only 2.
This is far from true. On paper Time Walk looks really overpowered, but it's one of those cards that really cheat you. I've seen Time Walk played as a 0-mana "Draw a card. Put a land from your hand into play.", than as a totally gamewrecking thing. Yes it's good, but not better than many other cubecards.
This will come up on a rarer basis than a turn one 2-power creature and turn two 2-power creature followed by a equipment. How many decks can beat that? Will that mean you remove all your critters as well? To me Tinker is less powered than a savannah lions. I've seen more games won by the lion than by Tinker. To make tinker good you have to pack your deck with cards that a suboptimal unless you draw Tinker and don't draw them. That means you will make your deck worse, to improve the Tinker...
This is far from true. On paper Time Walk looks really overpowered, but it's one of those cards that really cheat you. I've seen Time Walk played as a 0-mana "Draw a card. Put a land from your hand into play.", than as a totally gamewrecking thing. Yes it's good, but not better than many other cubecards.
hmm... I'll sleep on it.
Lol, the way you describe tinker you make me want to exclude it for other reasons haha. Your argument has merits for sure and it puts the card in an interesting predicament, it seems the card is either too good or just not good.
This will come up on a rarer basis than a turn one 2-power creature and turn two 2-power creature followed by a equipment. How many decks can beat that? Will that mean you remove all your critters as well? To me Tinker is less powered than a savannah lions. I've seen more games won by the lion than by Tinker. To make tinker good you have to pack your deck with cards that a suboptimal unless you draw Tinker and don't draw them. That means you will make your deck worse, to improve the Tinker...
This is exactly why I don't have Tinker in my cube.
I would argue that the weaker the overall pool, the stronger the more powerful cards are. Loxodon Warhammer may be a better card in a Common/Uncommon cube than Jitte is in a fully powered cube.
I have not found this to be the case at all. Replace Jitte with Library of Alexandria in your statement. Now you are comparing the best card to the best card and they are clearly of a different powerlevel.
I have not found this to be the case at all. Replace Jitte with Library of Alexandria in your statement. Now you are comparing the best card to the best card and they are clearly of a different powerlevel.
His point is that the relative power levels differences are more significant when you have a weaker pool, due to the average level being significantly lower in a commons/uncommons pool compared to a powered cube. Warhammer is better than the average card in a common/uncommon cube by a wider margin than Library is better than the average card in a tight 'best cards ever printed' cube.
His point is that the relative power levels differences are more significant when you have a weaker pool, due to the average level being significantly lower in a commons/uncommons pool compared to a powered cube. Warhammer is better than the average card in a common/uncommon cube by a wider margin than Library is better than the average card in a tight 'best cards ever printed' cube.
Sol Ring in a pauper cube I can certainly agree with but not Loxodon Warhammer, at least not in my experience. The pauper cube I play with has many answers to Warhammer and while the fully powered cube also has lots of answers to Library it has probably already drawn multiple cards by that point.
If we assume that degenerate things are possible, that's all well and good if both players are able to pull crazy stuff off. But since cube is a singleton format, it is much more likely for one player to do something crazy than both. The example that gets tossed around is a bad deck that happens to have Ancestral Recall in it - if they draw it every game in the first 3 turns, they probably win every game, and if they don't they lose. So the argument stems from the fact that if a handful (say 10) cards dominate games, and drawing them nearly always results in victory - and with only a handful of cards able to do that, luck becomes more important since drawing that card before your opponent draws his will win you the game.
This is also a buff to blue as a color, since drawing/digging/manipulation become even more important as you try to find that all-important-card.
This may be oversimplification, but this is how my playgroup feels about the whole thing.
The argument that if we take the 10 most powerful cards out, then the next 10 most powerful cards will become degenerate isn't directly true. The next 10 best cards aren't horrifically undercosted tempo or card advantage machines, which does lots for the critical turn of the game. The difference between "Forest, Birds, go" and "Land, Sol Ring, Signet" is enormous, and certainly enough to win the game. It takes a game where the critical turn is around 4 and accelerates it 2 turns. Moxes accelerate it a whole turn. This is also a hit against aggro, since lots of sweepers cost 4+ mana, and getting there faster means they can stabilize faster. The goal of the aggro deck is to win before the control deck has enough cheap answers and enough mana to play bigger effects, so a control deck with a mox essentially stabilizes a turn faster. Aggro, on the other hand, doesn't get another turn worth of attacks from a mox, just one more threat on the board (granted, the tempo advantage is quite significant, just not as much as it is for control).
Anyhow, my playgroup asked me to post this up here to see what others think about all this.
Also, for anyone who added power to their cube - Did you have to add more artifact removal?
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I disagree with this completely. Jitte, Skullclamp and Nightmare are far more powerful and degenerative than a mox.
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For the most part your 'offenders' list seems fine. I would still draft Recurring Nightmare over a Mox though. Is Gifts Ungiven also bannable?
I try to have every 'on-a-stick' guy in my cube anyway, but I wubs ETB effects and would be running them regardless of the inclusion of moxen (since other artifacts would take their place if they were cut). If I was deliberately targetting moxen I would include Gorilla Shaman, and I did have him months ago but he got cut when I tried to power up red.
Blue:
Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Time Spiral
Tinker
Black:
Yawgmoth's Will
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Mind Twist
White:
Balance
Watch List:
Mana Drain (currently still in my cube since it requires a true commitment to blue. Like the moxen, its a facilitator rather than an end game spell.)
All the Draw 7s are fine except Time Spiral, and even that one could come off at some point. I however, would need a green card to step up and compare to what is currently still being played before I favor blue even more. Windfall, Wheel of Fortune and Time Twister are fine since they are symmetrical, but also because many decks will splash for them. Since they are flexible as far as which colors play them I feel they are fair and do not favor blue more.
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From a pure power level, I definitely agree. Most of the cards on my banned list are simply due to how fast mana on the level of moxen, lotus, and sol ring doesn't feel like traditional magic to us. Everything except Library, Ancestral, Mind Twist, and Time Walk is basically there because it accelerates one person beyond their opponent far more than we feel is acceptable. They allow the actually broken cards like Jitte, Clamp, and Nightmare, and others to come online far earlier than they were intended.
We've done it both ways, and we're doing it the way which provided more enjoyable games for us. It's not like there is actually one correct answer here for how one should construct one's cube.
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I agree up to a point that there will always be the "top cards" in a cube, and if you take them out more will take their place. It is prbably be possible to design a cube with a pretty flat power level, I don't think it would be that much fun to draft.
Since shrinking my cube to a moderate size (480 cards) power seems less relevant, as there seems to be less variance in pack power. Some cards are "unfair" but we generally find that for every game you "just win" there will be a game you "just lose". Everyone gets their chance to go broken, and we like that.
We also play a bit more multiplayer. Tempo boosts from things like moxen are less important, and if you are seen as doing too well you will attract a lot of attention.
I have not found having a powered cube to hinder the efficacy of aggro strategies. Many of the egregious cards in cube assist aggro, particularly equipment.
I can see why people don't run power if it genuinely interferes with the experience they are trying to get from cube. If you are ambivalent about whether to include powerful cards, however, I think it might be considering whether your cube actually has other issues.
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I do think that Moxen advantages control more than Aggro however, because while both archetypes can play more powerful spells, a key part of the control came plan is to survive until phase 2, and moxen/Time Walk gets you there a whole turn faster.
Also I totally agree with wtwlf on this issue. The P9 is made up of really good cards. However, there's an abundance of cards that are currently in most everyone's list that affect that game so much more than any piece of power would.
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I disagree, what worries me worst about some power is color favoritism. And even though true color balance isn't always possible it seems like a mistake to create a cube that practically forces people into blue.
The list of cards I mentioned earlier are the ones I felt pushed a player too far committed into the color regardless of the point in the draft.
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Yes!:D Sorta.
Because of the evolution of tournament types.
Tournament Types we're created to allow players to play with their collections without having to be wealthy (originally at least).
I remember when standard was today's Vintage and WotC introduced Type 2 (now known as standard) and called the standard format (vintage at that time) Type 1. If memory serves me, their explanation of creating type 2 was to allow newer players a competitive format they could reasonably get into (since the power 9 we're starting to exceed $100). Same thing happened later with extended and legacy. Ironically, with the allowing of proxies in vintage, legacy is kinda more expensive to get into now.:rolleyes:
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To respectfully disagree, Standard was the genius move that drove sales on new sets without uncontrollable power creep killing the game (until the discovery of drafting, which also drives sales of the new sets).
In cube it's the builder that choses what he wants with it. In my main cube I want to play the most powerful stuff, so I use the power I have. In my tribal cube I want creatures to dominate the format, so there's close to no mass-removal and most of the removal are a bit overcosted on purpose.
But with the power thing i'm with many of the others, that state that you shouldn't remove power for power reasons, but rather because you don't like that they add more tempo, or that they are too expensive. Power is actually a rather misleading name as they aren't really that powerful. It's a perfectly valid argument to state:
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So far Kiki-Jiki has been the MVP of my cube.
The ones I've mentioned have more to do with making a particular color too strong than the cards being truly dominant (the exception being Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, Tinker which are game breaking). I'd consider adding the two black cards in if I could get a few more people to agree that they are not as game warping as I think they are, but some cards will always stay on the list. I personally love blue, but I don't want the people playing to feel pressured into it.
Oh, and I forgot Tinker on that list.
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On the blue side I don't think that either Time Walk and Tinker are overpowered either. Good yes - overpowered no.
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Oh yea, forgot about mind twist, I don't have that in my cube either for the unfun factor.
I disagree with you on Tinker. I can't think of many decks that can beat turn 2-3 Sundering Titan, or Inkwell Leviathan, and to a lesser extent Sphinx of the Steel Wind. I guess if I wanted too I could take out those cards and Tinker would no longer be devastating but that seems a bit counterproductive.
Time Walk is on the list because no matter who plays it, They generally win if they know what they are doing. Thats an issue. The card reminds me of Rude Awakening but it costs only 2.
(I might still give them a 2 week trial next semester and see how good they are)
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listen to this man.
those cards don't even start to follow any rules. They sound like cards your little brother would make up to try to beat you. time twister should be fine, timewalk is pushing it (i've heard silly stories about recurring it numerous times) I personally won't add the moxen to my cube, but they can't hurt more than sol ring. though in conjunction with sol ring mana costs will just stop mattering flat out. in any case, stuff like the moxen and black lotus only make every other card in the cube more broken, particularly mind twist. try them out, see what happens and go from there
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Accellerants are not a problem, and I can only think it would be worse if you had Sol Ring but no moxen to balance its power. Timetwister is fine for sure, but I'm a little hesatant about Time Spiral. Mind Twist on the other hand is simply unfun. Playing with my friends fully powered cube I was sitting on a very very saucy 4 card hand when he mind twisted me and won the game on the spot. That happens too often with Mind Twist for my liking. I also disagree with Recurring Nightmare being as good as Mind Twist, although it is still one of the best cards in cube. Some times an opponent doesn't play into it, playing a strategy that just goes over the top. I've also had games where I just can't get it going. If not for the fact that it is easier to kill I would say Skullclamp is better than nightmare.
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This will come up on a rarer basis than a turn one 2-power creature and turn two 2-power creature followed by a equipment. How many decks can beat that? Will that mean you remove all your critters as well? To me Tinker is less powered than a savannah lions. I've seen more games won by the lion than by Tinker. To make tinker good you have to pack your deck with cards that a suboptimal unless you draw Tinker and don't draw them. That means you will make your deck worse, to improve the Tinker...
This is far from true. On paper Time Walk looks really overpowered, but it's one of those cards that really cheat you. I've seen Time Walk played as a 0-mana "Draw a card. Put a land from your hand into play.", than as a totally gamewrecking thing. Yes it's good, but not better than many other cubecards.
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hmm... I'll sleep on it.
Lol, the way you describe tinker you make me want to exclude it for other reasons haha. Your argument has merits for sure and it puts the card in an interesting predicament, it seems the card is either too good or just not good.
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This is exactly why I don't have Tinker in my cube.
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I have not found this to be the case at all. Replace Jitte with Library of Alexandria in your statement. Now you are comparing the best card to the best card and they are clearly of a different powerlevel.
His point is that the relative power levels differences are more significant when you have a weaker pool, due to the average level being significantly lower in a commons/uncommons pool compared to a powered cube. Warhammer is better than the average card in a common/uncommon cube by a wider margin than Library is better than the average card in a tight 'best cards ever printed' cube.
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Sol Ring in a pauper cube I can certainly agree with but not Loxodon Warhammer, at least not in my experience. The pauper cube I play with has many answers to Warhammer and while the fully powered cube also has lots of answers to Library it has probably already drawn multiple cards by that point.