Sol Ring in a pauper cube I can certainly agree with but not Loxodon Warhammer, at least not in my experience. The pauper cube I play with has many answers to Warhammer and while the fully powered cube also has lots of answers to Library it has probably already drawn multiple cards by that point.
Sol Ring < Warhammer?!
First off, your talking about a no rare cube right? All I know is that Sol Ring is arguably the best, or atleast one of the top three best cards in even the most powered of cubes. Both are dispatched easily by Viridian Shaman, Uktabi Orangatan and a plethora of others. Although, but that time the damage may already be done in the case of Ring. It is so easy to Time Walk your opponent with removal when they equip the hammer. Skullclamp however is probably the most broken card in a non-rare cube.
First off, your talking about a no rare cube right? All I know is that Sol Ring is arguably the best, or atleast one of the top three best cards in even the most powered of cubes. Both are dispatched easily by Viridian Shaman, Uktabi Orangatan and a plethora of others. Skullclamp however is probably the most broken card in a non-rare cube.
Whoa! Just to be clear here I was trying to say that Sol Ring might be more overpowered in a pauper cube than Library is in a power cube but in no way was I trying to say Sol Ring < Warhammer. In any format. Ever.
EDIT: Skullclamp maybe, IDK. The local pauper cube doesn't play it.
This is exactly why I don't have Tinker in my cube.
Tinker does not have to be drafted around to be good. Tinker is good anyways, and drafting good artifacts doesn't make your deck worse. You don't need to have a "bomb" target for Tinker to be great. Tinkering out one of the Masticore brothers or a Triskelion or something is just fine.
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I have not found this to be the case at all. Replace Jitte with Library of Alexandria in your statement. Now you are comparing the best card to the best card and they are clearly of a different powerlevel.
I've found it to be the case. Warhammer is maybe the 2nd or 3rd best card in a pauper cube, depending on which older uncommons they allow in, and Jitte is the 2nd or 3rd best card in a normal cube. Warhammer is back-breaking in a pauper cube, but there are still answers to it... just like Jitte in a normal cube.
..........
The point is, that a card being "overpowered" is entirely contingent on it's environment. Cursed Scroll is banned from Tempest block. It's far from bannable in Vintage. Same goes for the cube... if you're needing to ban cards from the cube because they're so broken that they're unfun... maybe the problem is with the rest of the cube or the draft group drafting/building suboptimal decks. We don't have any problems with the power-level of a single card in the cube here. And we use more broken stuff than the average cube does. Every card can be answered, and every deck can be beaten. Sounds more like a balance issue than a power-level issue if you get completely blown out by a few good cards in every draft. If your deck can't beat a turn one Mox... the problem isn't the Mox... it's your bad deck.
I've found it to be the case. Warhammer is maybe the 2nd or 3rd best card in a pauper cube, depending on which older uncommons they allow in, and Jitte is the 2nd or 3rd best card in a normal cube. Warhammer is back-breaking in a pauper cube, but there are still answers to it... just like Jitte in a normal cube.
I think we have different pauper experiences, in the pauper cube I play with Warhammer is the #1 card but there is no Skullclamp or Sol Ring. Library has answers for it but how do you answer it without your opponent gaining an advantage from it? Not saying it can't be beat but turn 1 Library is very often a win. Warhammer is certainly a beating in the pauper environment but it can be answered without your opponent gaining a large advantage. Why are you talking about Moxen though? We can both agree that they certainly aren't among the most degenerate cards.
I think we have different pauper experiences, in the pauper cube I play with Warhammer is the #1 card but there is no Skullclamp or Sol Ring. Library has answers for it but how do you answer it without your opponent gaining an advantage from it? Not saying it can't be beat but turn 1 Library is very often a win. Warhammer is certainly a beating in the pauper environment but it can be answered without your opponent gaining a large advantage. Why are you talking about Moxen though? We can both agree that they certainly aren't among the most degenerate cards.
If we are talking strictly commons, they yea, a really good uncommon like that is going to be nutz. Which brings up the question, why are you running uncommons in a cube full of commons?
If we are talking strictly commons, they yea, a really good uncommon like that is going to be nutz. Which brings up the question, why are you running uncommons in a cube full of commons?
I thought pauper was the common/uncommon type and peasant was the commons only. Maybe I got the 2 mixed up.
In my defense I am a complete idiot. In a G/W the Sledge is better but being multicolored is a significant drawback.
Even without duals in your deck 1GWisn't an unreasonable cost, especially when the first time either of the equipment become active is on turn 4. If I opened Sledge early, I wouldn't feel bad at all about going GW. After all it supports equipment quite well.
Nah, Warhammer is a lot better, not only does it provide more power, but in can go in any deck... not just WG.
The extra one power is not close to as good as the 2 additional Toughness. With both being colorless the sledge would beat hammer by a mile. Bringing the beats and keeping the creature around is key.
The mana cost is of course a concilation, but that should never really matter when your talking about which is "better." Given an early pick choice between the two sledge will always be better, the stats are just simply better.
Even without duals in your deck 1GWisn't an unreasonable cost, especially when the first time either of the equipment become active is on turn 4. If I opened Sledge early, I wouldn't feel bad at all about going GW. After all it supports equipment quite well.
It is more an issue of stretching your mana. If you are R/G for example and see Sledge pack 3 you have to decide whether to splash it which will weaken your manabase. Loxodon Warhammer would be a windmall slam in that situation.
Even without duals in your deck 1GWisn't an unreasonable cost, especially when the first time either of the equipment become active is on turn 4. If I opened Sledge early, I wouldn't feel bad at all about going GW. After all it supports equipment quite well.
The extra one power is not close to as good as the 2 additional Toughness. With both being colorless the sledge would beat hammer by a mile. Bringing the beats and keeping the creature around is key.
The mana cost is of course a concilation, but that should never really matter when your talking about which is "better." Given an early pick choice between the two sledge will always be better, the stats are just simply better.
Early on is when the Warhammer is even better, because it doesn't force you to commit to WG. I can choose Warhammer over Sledge, and still have options open... and I'd rather have the +1 power than the +2 toughness most of the time anyways. If they were both P1P1 together, I'd take the Warhammer every time.
Why force yourself into a color combination that my not be open when you can pick a colorless card and then just draft well?
Early on is when the Warhammer is even better, because it doesn't force you to commit to WG. I can choose Warhammer over Sledge, and still have options open... and I'd rather have the +1 power than the +2 toughness most of the time anyways. If they were both P1P1 together, I'd take the Warhammer every time.
Why force yourself into a color combination that my not be open when you can pick a colorless card and then just draft well?
I'll concede the point on color commitment, as it does push you down a particular rout (especially in a Peasant Cube). But I hope we can agree that stats wise the sledge is better. In other words if both were colorless Sledge would have superior stats.
I bring up that point primarily because the evaluation of both cards changes as more mana fixing becomes present. In a cube like mine that has tons of manafixers its not unreasonable to splash for Sledge.
Lol, If you ever have a choice between one or the other in a peasant cube it wont really matter, as both are utterly insane, one is just more restrictive. Both will probably be the best card in the pack, and even if your not playing GW I would probably cut it, the card is just that good.
If both were colorless, I'd probably pick Loxodon Warhammer over Behemoth Sledge. Both offer a base +2/+0 trample lifelink. Aggro lives on evasion, and when you have evasive guys, an additional +1/+0 is better than +0/+2 in Cube draft (obviously different in regular draft environment).
Yup. Even if the sledge was completely colorless, I'd still pick Warhammer every time.
That assertion makes no sense whatsoever. A creature with an ass of +2 will live to swing again, the same may not be true for the creature holding a hammer.
For instance, how many Creatures will a 2/2 trump in combat when carrying a Sledge over a hammer? The numbers are very very high. Every 3 damage burn spell, and every creature with power under 3. Probably 60 or more creatures and 8-12 burn spells. That is huge. If you swing in with a hammer equipped creature and lose it you will be taking 2 turns to begin swinging with it again. Hammer, although it has +1 power, will not do more damage over the course of a game because your creature resources are infinity easier to deal with.
I'm sorry, the damage vs. Split Second debate had merit. This one is just dumb.
That assertion makes no sense whatsoever. A creature with an ass of +2 will live to swing again, the same may not be true for the creature holding a hammer.
For instance, how many Creatures will a 2/2 trump in combat when carrying a Sledge over a hammer? The numbers are very very high. Every 3 damage burn spell, and every creature with power under 3. Probably 60 or more creatures and 8-12 burn spells. That is huge. If you swing in with a hammer equipped creature and lose it you will be taking 2 turns to begin swinging with it again. Hammer, although it has +1 power, will not do more damage over the course of a game because your creature resources are infinity easier to deal with.
I'm sorry, the damage vs. Split Second debate had merit. This one is just dumb.
Many of the creatures you SHOULD be equipping the Warhammer on probably have evasion, first strike, etc - this is the cube afterall. Heck, removal is so plentiful that they may not even have a blocker. Which is why the Warhammer is better than the sledge.
That assertion makes no sense whatsoever. A creature with an ass of +2 will live to swing again, the same may not be true for the creature holding a hammer.
For instance, how many Creatures will a 2/2 trump in combat when carrying a Sledge over a hammer? The numbers are very very high. Every 3 damage burn spell, and every creature with power under 3. Probably 60 or more creatures and 8-12 burn spells. That is huge. If you swing in with a hammer equipped creature and lose it you will be taking 2 turns to begin swinging with it again. Hammer, although it has +1 power, will not do more damage over the course of a game because your creature resources are infinity easier to deal with.
I'm sorry, the damage vs. Split Second debate had merit. This one is just dumb.
Sorry, I have to disagree with you still. If I'm strapping it to a creature with evasion or protection (like most of 'em) or supporting them with removal so they can avoid combat altogether, the extra power is better than the extra 2 toughness. When I'm strapping this to a Soltari Priest, what do I care what its toughness is?
Not to mention that the sledge is WG and the better one is colorless.
A 3/1 is better than a 2/3, IMO. All day. Unholy Strength > Holy Strength, and so on. Power wins games.
Ignoring mana cost i would much rather have Sledge. I think it much better than warhammer since it makes the equipped threat much more annoying to kill in combat. The extra power of warhammer is obv better on evasion/first strike guys, but not all creatures have those luxuries. Also, it's important to take into consideration the accumulating costs of equipping and re-equipping the hammer if your creature dies which is more likely to happen then the sledge.
Ignoring mana cost i would much rather have Sledge. I think it much better than warhammer since it makes the equipped threat much more annoying to kill in combat. The extra power of warhammer is obv better on evasion/first strike guys, but not all creatures have those luxuries. Also, it's important to take into consideration the accumulating costs of equipping and re-equipping the hammer if your creature dies which is more likely to happen then the sledge.
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there's too much "what if" going on in here. The fact is that the Hammer is always a better P1P1. and if you're already heavy into GW you'd still take hammer over the sledge because anyone else drafting could and will use the hammer and lord knows you don't want to size up against it. the extra toughness is legitimate, namely against red, but if you're given a choice between the two you would take the hammer because more people can use it than the sledge, and because you can use it as effectively as the sledge.
so I've recently come into possession of a full set of Power. I've been a staunch "unpowered" guy since the inception of my cube. But now I have a bit of a dilemma in that I really want to play these new (old and tattered) cards but I've been.very judicious in keeping my cube environment "balanced". I've played mana drain, balance, recurring nightmare, jitte, grim monolith, and several other common offenders since inception and been fine with It as has my group. I even support the artifact deck and have a super janky house rule that you can include 2 artifact lands (without drafting them) if you like. A big part of the reason I want to include the moxen is to get rid of this stupid house rule. I get the argument that banning cards is a slippery slope but my cube groups is me and 2 other dudes who don't take kindly to "feel bad" plays, and as such I've cut Mind Twist, Plow Under, and True Name Nemesis ages ago. I'm leaning towards testing out semi-power in the form of the five moxen, time walk. and time twister while leaving out sol ring, library, and mana crypt along with the aforementioned cards my groups doesn't like. I know is a tired topic and a non factor for most cubes but I would be interested in other cube managers thoughts on my selections and the topic in general. Ive read through this entire thread carefully so don't feel a need to resurrect the slippery slope argument, haha.
The gap between sol ring and moxen is real, but not really big. It seems weird to run some but not others. But if Plow Under makes you and your drafters feel bad, I don't get how moxen + pals won't do that same. The more power you have, the more power ~3 drafters can get, and the less feel-bads there are.
Do you do burn drafting at all? With our fully powered cubes it's all we do and all the decks tend to get power/are really streamlined and powerful. It mitigates a lot of the issues we had with winston drafting where someone could randomly stumble into the dopest deck, or 3 pack drafting with 3 people where there was minimal power and that which showed up stood out.
Good thoughts Salmo, thanks. Plow Under doesnt make me feel bad in the lease, I actually love the card, but my peeps hate it. I think the consensus for us is that accelerants don't feel as bad as... decelerants? My group just doesn't dig the feeling of getting Mind Twisted or Plowed. Anyway, back to the point. My thought is that a turn two 3 drop is going to be less oppressive than a turn two 4 drop (Elspeth 1.0 comes to mind), and an extra mana on turn one is something my cube is already built to handle with mana dorks and the lesser Moxen. Hence my feeling about leaving out Sol Ring. The other cards I want to leave out are Ancestral Recall and Library, just because my group feels that those cards tend to break the resources/costs curve more than most other cube cards. Also, Crypt gets left out for the same reason as Sol Ring. I know, I know, it's dumb but I think it might jut work for my group.
Also, how does Time Walk typically play out? Is it better than Balance? I'd love to cube with it but it's another one my group isn't thrilled about.
And yes, we burn draft almost exclusively, and sometimes even crack a sealed pack each becfore the draft. We are def used to streamlined and well built decks.
Sol Ring < Warhammer?!
First off, your talking about a no rare cube right? All I know is that Sol Ring is arguably the best, or atleast one of the top three best cards in even the most powered of cubes. Both are dispatched easily by Viridian Shaman, Uktabi Orangatan and a plethora of others. Although, but that time the damage may already be done in the case of Ring. It is so easy to Time Walk your opponent with removal when they equip the hammer. Skullclamp however is probably the most broken card in a non-rare cube.
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Whoa! Just to be clear here I was trying to say that Sol Ring might be more overpowered in a pauper cube than Library is in a power cube but in no way was I trying to say Sol Ring < Warhammer. In any format. Ever.
EDIT: Skullclamp maybe, IDK. The local pauper cube doesn't play it.
Tinker does not have to be drafted around to be good. Tinker is good anyways, and drafting good artifacts doesn't make your deck worse. You don't need to have a "bomb" target for Tinker to be great. Tinkering out one of the Masticore brothers or a Triskelion or something is just fine.
I've found it to be the case. Warhammer is maybe the 2nd or 3rd best card in a pauper cube, depending on which older uncommons they allow in, and Jitte is the 2nd or 3rd best card in a normal cube. Warhammer is back-breaking in a pauper cube, but there are still answers to it... just like Jitte in a normal cube.
..........
The point is, that a card being "overpowered" is entirely contingent on it's environment. Cursed Scroll is banned from Tempest block. It's far from bannable in Vintage. Same goes for the cube... if you're needing to ban cards from the cube because they're so broken that they're unfun... maybe the problem is with the rest of the cube or the draft group drafting/building suboptimal decks. We don't have any problems with the power-level of a single card in the cube here. And we use more broken stuff than the average cube does. Every card can be answered, and every deck can be beaten. Sounds more like a balance issue than a power-level issue if you get completely blown out by a few good cards in every draft. If your deck can't beat a turn one Mox... the problem isn't the Mox... it's your bad deck.
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I think we have different pauper experiences, in the pauper cube I play with Warhammer is the #1 card but there is no Skullclamp or Sol Ring. Library has answers for it but how do you answer it without your opponent gaining an advantage from it? Not saying it can't be beat but turn 1 Library is very often a win. Warhammer is certainly a beating in the pauper environment but it can be answered without your opponent gaining a large advantage. Why are you talking about Moxen though? We can both agree that they certainly aren't among the most degenerate cards.
If we are talking strictly commons, they yea, a really good uncommon like that is going to be nutz. Which brings up the question, why are you running uncommons in a cube full of commons?
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I thought pauper was the common/uncommon type and peasant was the commons only. Maybe I got the 2 mixed up.
You did. Most people in the cube forum seem to it looks like.
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I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Ah, yea, you mean peasant. If you feel warhammer is so good what about Behemoth Sledge? Wouldn't it be even better?
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Nah, Warhammer is a lot better, not only does it provide more power, but in can go in any deck... not just WG.
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In my defense I am a complete idiot. In a G/W the Sledge is better but being multicolored is a significant drawback.
Even without duals in your deck 1GWisn't an unreasonable cost, especially when the first time either of the equipment become active is on turn 4. If I opened Sledge early, I wouldn't feel bad at all about going GW. After all it supports equipment quite well.
The extra one power is not close to as good as the 2 additional Toughness. With both being colorless the sledge would beat hammer by a mile. Bringing the beats and keeping the creature around is key.
The mana cost is of course a concilation, but that should never really matter when your talking about which is "better." Given an early pick choice between the two sledge will always be better, the stats are just simply better.
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It is more an issue of stretching your mana. If you are R/G for example and see Sledge pack 3 you have to decide whether to splash it which will weaken your manabase. Loxodon Warhammer would be a windmall slam in that situation.
Early on is when the Warhammer is even better, because it doesn't force you to commit to WG. I can choose Warhammer over Sledge, and still have options open... and I'd rather have the +1 power than the +2 toughness most of the time anyways. If they were both P1P1 together, I'd take the Warhammer every time.
Why force yourself into a color combination that my not be open when you can pick a colorless card and then just draft well?
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I'll concede the point on color commitment, as it does push you down a particular rout (especially in a Peasant Cube). But I hope we can agree that stats wise the sledge is better. In other words if both were colorless Sledge would have superior stats.
I bring up that point primarily because the evaluation of both cards changes as more mana fixing becomes present. In a cube like mine that has tons of manafixers its not unreasonable to splash for Sledge.
Lol, If you ever have a choice between one or the other in a peasant cube it wont really matter, as both are utterly insane, one is just more restrictive. Both will probably be the best card in the pack, and even if your not playing GW I would probably cut it, the card is just that good.
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Yup. Even if the sledge was completely colorless, I'd still pick Warhammer every time.
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For instance, how many Creatures will a 2/2 trump in combat when carrying a Sledge over a hammer? The numbers are very very high. Every 3 damage burn spell, and every creature with power under 3. Probably 60 or more creatures and 8-12 burn spells. That is huge. If you swing in with a hammer equipped creature and lose it you will be taking 2 turns to begin swinging with it again. Hammer, although it has +1 power, will not do more damage over the course of a game because your creature resources are infinity easier to deal with.
I'm sorry, the damage vs. Split Second debate had merit. This one is just dumb.
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Many of the creatures you SHOULD be equipping the Warhammer on probably have evasion, first strike, etc - this is the cube afterall. Heck, removal is so plentiful that they may not even have a blocker. Which is why the Warhammer is better than the sledge.
Sorry, I have to disagree with you still. If I'm strapping it to a creature with evasion or protection (like most of 'em) or supporting them with removal so they can avoid combat altogether, the extra power is better than the extra 2 toughness. When I'm strapping this to a Soltari Priest, what do I care what its toughness is?
Not to mention that the sledge is WG and the better one is colorless.
A 3/1 is better than a 2/3, IMO. All day. Unholy Strength > Holy Strength, and so on. Power wins games.
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No...No....NOOOOO!! Don't let him such you in, ITS A TRAP!!!
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Which means that the warhammer is hands down better because of it's less restrictive colour requirements.
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Do you do burn drafting at all? With our fully powered cubes it's all we do and all the decks tend to get power/are really streamlined and powerful. It mitigates a lot of the issues we had with winston drafting where someone could randomly stumble into the dopest deck, or 3 pack drafting with 3 people where there was minimal power and that which showed up stood out.
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Also, how does Time Walk typically play out? Is it better than Balance? I'd love to cube with it but it's another one my group isn't thrilled about.
And yes, we burn draft almost exclusively, and sometimes even crack a sealed pack each becfore the draft. We are def used to streamlined and well built decks.