How has not having a fixed creature/spell ratio been working for you? Intuitively I feel like I would unconsciously heavily skew the creature/spell ratio in one direction depending on the color. Has just picking the best X colored cards actually given you a natural balance or have you had to go back and artificially remove some creatures (for example) to make room for more spells?
I forced the numbers when I first made the cube, so I was tasked with finding the best X creatures and best Y spells for each color, as opposed to just the best cards from each. I started with a fixed ratio (in this case it was 30:25 Creatures:Spells). Then I let green skew it to 35:20 and Blue have 25:30 since green has more creatures and blue has less.
After the initial setup though, I generally have tried to replace creatures with creatures and spells with spells as much as possible, but I haven't stuck to it precisely. So the numbers are a bit off from where they started, but are generally pretty close to balanced since they started off that way.
I haven't ever artificially removed a spell for a creature just for numbers reasons though - although I will admit to shying away from changing a creature out for a spell because I don't want to upset the balance, which is in essence, preemptively artificially switching a creature out for a spell to keep the balance up.
I forced the numbers when I first made the cube, so I was tasked with finding the best X creatures and best Y spells for each color, as opposed to just the best cards from each. I started with a fixed ratio (in this case it was 30:25 Creatures:Spells). Then I let green skew it to 35:20 and Blue have 25:30 since green has more creatures and blue has less.
After the initial setup though, I generally have tried to replace creatures with creatures and spells with spells as much as possible, but I haven't stuck to it precisely. So the numbers are a bit off from where they started, but are generally pretty close to balanced since they started off that way.
I haven't ever artificially removed a spell for a creature just for numbers reasons though - although I will admit to shying away from changing a creature out for a spell because I don't want to upset the balance, which is in essence, preemptively artificially switching a creature out for a spell to keep the balance up.
Just to push the point of Crucible a little bit further, I went through my cube and made a list of the cards that can "combo" with it and added a couple that are found in commonly in other cubes.
Fetchlands of all varieties
Strip Mine/Wasteland
Manlands
Smokestack
Balance
Armageddon
Cataclysm
Global Ruin
Catastrophe
World Queller
Thirst for Knowledge, Compulsive research, or other Loot effects
Forbid
Raven's Crime
Undead Gladiator
Countryside Crusher
Wildfire
Boom//Bust
Wild Mongrel
Psychatog
Goblin Trenches
Braids, Cabal Minion
And it works against things like Blastminer along with other ld and is a unique answer to discard. Hell, I grabbed it early once just to use it as a means to extend my hand when I would have more than 7 cards at eot, which happened several times that draft. People in my playgroup will often hate draft it away from me now as I've managed to do devestating things with it several times now, and they always assume I've grabbed some prison effect.
You have manlands on the list twice, but you forgot Braids, Cabal Minion... one of my favorite combo pieces with Crucible of Worlds. That has won me more than one game in the cube.
You have manlands on the list twice, but you forgot Braids, Cabal Minion... one of my favorite combo pieces with Crucible of Worlds. That has won me more than one game in the cube.
I though I had put them on there, but couldn't seem to find it. Cntrl + F would have worked I guess... List changed to reflect this.
I had so much positive experience with it in constructed that I figured it must be good. Was it useless more-often-than-not?
It was pretty much always useless. There may have been once or twice where it actually came in handy. For the most part it was just bad for the cube. It's a good card, but it's not a color fixer as much as it's a mana accelerator. At the cost of a useful card, we didn't find it worth it.
My artifact section is at 62 cards right now so the Mox makes it in pretty easily. Your section is much smaller so I would add in the other cards I listed first and see if you have room for the Mox to test it for yourself since all the others are better. If I had to choose I think I'd also put in Pithing Needle over it but I am very fond of the Needle so maybe it is clouding my judgment.
I would definitely run Pithing Needle before I'd run Chrome Mox. My artifact section sits at 65 cards at the moment and we still don't have room for the Mox. Pithing Needle, however, is a colorless answer to so many great cards in the cube. It's excellent.
Chrome Mox is probably next on the chopping block in my artifact section. It can be great in the right deck, but often times I find it hard to pitch gas spells for it in the cube. However, there have also been times where it's really good, so I don't know...
Chrome Mox is probably next on the chopping block in my artifact section. It can be great in the right deck, but often times I find it hard to pitch gas spells for it in the cube. However, there have also been times where it's really good, so I don't know...
Actually in your list, since you are running power, I think I'd cut it for Lightning Greaves.
Ya, we played the Greaves for a while and weren't impressed with it. I know a lot of people really like 'em, but they were only ever meh for us. *shrug*
Chrome Mox actually sees quite a bit more play than the LG did.
While I personally agree that Chrome Mox is definitely the weakest of the Mox cycle and perhaps worse in a vacuum than some of the other cards mentioned to replace it, people around here tend to draft it really high, and that in and of itself gives it a place in my cube.
I think Chrome Mox is a great card... in the right deck. Unfortunately, that deck doesn't see play at all in my cube. It's amazing in Legacy's Dragon Stompy deck as fuel and accelerant to power out big threats really quick. It was also good in Type 2 (and extended for a while) to power out a turn one Slith Firewalker in it's day. We weren't able to translate that same success to the cube. Most of the time I'd rather have two spells a turn later, rather than having one spell a turn earlier and not have the other spell at all.
* I feel like this merits an explanation. In an effort to keep with our policy to prevent the multiple-planeswalkers-with-the-same-name-rule from ever occurring, one jace has to come out for the other to go in. Why Psionic Blast? Because everyone likes burn, and blue could always use some more real removal. Another option we are considering is Rushing River (which happens to combo nicely with Crucible), but we think P. Blast is better.
Smokestack is the other artifact addition so that Crucible has one more thing to combo with.
I'm curious, why is your group so opposed to multiple planeswalkers with the same type? It seems like a shame to lose such a great card as the original Jace.
* I feel like this merits an explanation. In an effort to keep with our policy to prevent the multiple-planeswalkers-with-the-same-name-rule from ever occurring, one jace has to come out for the other to go in. Why Psionic Blast? Because everyone likes burn, and blue could always use some more real removal. Another option we are considering is Rushing River (which happens to combo nicely with Crucible), but we think P. Blast is better.
Psionic Blast is better but could you explain the no 2 planeswalker with the same name thing? I don't like that at all.
I'm curious, why is your group so opposed to multiple planeswalkers with the same type? It seems like a shame to lose such a great card as the original Jace.
I'm not a fan either, but my players (I can't really explain it, they try and I don't get it, but I have to appease them) don't think that the planeswalker uniqueness rule makes any sense when the cards have different names. I don't see how its really all that bad if Jace is a removal spell for the other Jace, but they think it is really unintuitive and awkward for a number of reasons, none of which seem very good. The primary reason they have is that it disagrees with the 'legend rule' which would let you have both Crovax the Cursed, Ascendent Evincar, and Crovax, Ascendant Hero all in play at the same time, but if he was a planeswalker, then it wouldn't be ok. Interestingly, they like 2 Jace Belerens removing each other, but not Jace Beleren and Jace, the Mindsculptor. Essentially they are stuck on the 2004 legend rule.
It's something that I might be able to change their minds about considering how cool both Jace cards are. But at least for the time being, my hands are tied. :/
Its something that I might be able to change their minds about considering how cool both Jace cards are. But at least for the time being, my hands are tied. :/
If you have noone to cube with that is much worse than making your cube subpar however I would urge you to convince them otherwise. In fact the planeswalker rule makes a lot more sense than the legend rule, I think if WOTC could go back in time they would somehow fix it so that all the Crovaxes would kill themselves. Additionally it looks like they are going to keep printing duplicates so as time goes on you are losing more and more cube staples.
If you have noone to cube with that is much worse than making your cube subpar however I would urge you to convince them otherwise. In fact the planeswalker rule makes a lot more sense than the legend rule, I think if WOTC could go back in time they would somehow fix it so that all the Crovaxes would kill themselves. Additionally it looks like they are going to keep printing duplicates so as time goes on you are losing more and more cube staples.
Exactly my stance on the matter. It bothers me that Crovax the Cursed and Crovax, Ascendant Hero don't die to state-based effects when both are in play - I mean, its the same guy, which is what the Legend Rule is about, right?
I think the Jace thing might be enough to push them over the edge on it, because they love the old Jace, and everyone who has seen the new one adores it as well. So telling them that one has to go because of their silly rule should change their minds - since clearly both should be in.
Exactly my stance on the matter. It bothers me that Crovax the Cursed and Crovax, Ascendant Hero don't die to state-based effects when both are in play - I mean, its the same guy, which is what the Legend Rule is about, right?
I think the Jace thing might be enough to push them over the edge on it, because they love the old Jace, and everyone who has seen the new one adores it as well. So telling them that one has to go because of their silly rule should change their minds - since clearly both should be in.
If you want to be really technical about it, the Ascendant Hero comes from a different timeline than the other Crovax, so they are the same person, but at the same time, they're different.
Crovax the Cursed and Ascendant Evincar have no excuse, though.
I'd do my best to show them that having both Jaces in the cube is the best route possible. Cube cards should not be cut over an identity crisis.
If you want to be really technical about it, the Ascendant Hero comes from a different timeline than the other Crovax, so they are the same person, but at the same time, they're different.
Crovax the Cursed and Ascendant Evincar have no excuse, though.
I'd do my best to show them that having both Jaces in the cube is the best route possible. Cube cards should not be cut over an identity crisis.
Yeah, I agree, new Jace and old Jace should be run in any cube that can run them.
Their argument that there should only be one of each planeswalker type reminds me of the people who said that they would play by pre-m10 rules when m10's rules changes were announced, wanting to stick by old rules either out of not wanting to adjust or exaggerated mental perceptions that it'd cause the world to end with cats and dogs living together.
I really like Chrome Mox, because it's an aggro-only card in cube. And I like most good aggro-only cards.
I think of Lighning Greaves as a 2 Fires of Yavimaya, with the benifit of Shroud. It's very rare that you drop 2 creatures a turn, so it will often act as that.
I really like Chrome Mox, because it's an aggro-only card in cube. And I like most good aggro-only cards.
I think of Lighning Greaves as a 2 Fires of Yavimaya, with the benifit of Shroud. It's very rare that you drop 2 creatures a turn, so it will often act as that.
Hey, bonda! Welcome to two days ago! J/K
I also like Lightning Greaves quite a bit. I've cursed it many times when playing against it. Giving a creature haste for 0 is good. Giving it shroud as well is really good. I wouldn't rate it at the top of the the equipment list, but it's definitely worthy of a spot.
Also, I agree that the planeswalker legend rule is weird when compared to the legend legend rule. I get that two Jace's can't be in play at the same time. That makes sense. It doesn't make sense that two Crovax's or Mirri's can be in play at the same time.
Well, Wizards has said if they could do something for the "different" legends that are the same person to be affected by the "legend rule" they would, but they can't. Just tell your group the "flavor" behind it:
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Kamahl, Pit Fighter don't blow up when they see each other on the battlefield because they are inherently different; the magic that it takes to summon them are different, and so there is no recognition between them.
Planeswalker are different because they are not creatures. They have the spark that is constant even though the planeswalker changes. The magical inwardness that Jace possesses is the same even though the actions he performs is different.
But honestly, I would just both Jaces in there because I love that the Subtype matters. It's so awesome when you are holding an Ajani, and you must decide to wait a couple of turns to kill you opponent's Ajani so yours enters the battlefield alive, or to just have them both go, "BOOM!"
I forced the numbers when I first made the cube, so I was tasked with finding the best X creatures and best Y spells for each color, as opposed to just the best cards from each. I started with a fixed ratio (in this case it was 30:25 Creatures:Spells). Then I let green skew it to 35:20 and Blue have 25:30 since green has more creatures and blue has less.
After the initial setup though, I generally have tried to replace creatures with creatures and spells with spells as much as possible, but I haven't stuck to it precisely. So the numbers are a bit off from where they started, but are generally pretty close to balanced since they started off that way.
I haven't ever artificially removed a spell for a creature just for numbers reasons though - although I will admit to shying away from changing a creature out for a spell because I don't want to upset the balance, which is in essence, preemptively artificially switching a creature out for a spell to keep the balance up.
I hope that helps.
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MY LEGACY ALTERS
Fetchlands of all varieties
Strip Mine/Wasteland
Manlands
Smokestack
Balance
Armageddon
Cataclysm
Global Ruin
Catastrophe
World Queller
Thirst for Knowledge, Compulsive research, or other Loot effects
Forbid
Raven's Crime
Undead Gladiator
Countryside Crusher
Wildfire
Boom//Bust
Wild Mongrel
Psychatog
Goblin Trenches
Braids, Cabal Minion
And it works against things like Blastminer along with other ld and is a unique answer to discard. Hell, I grabbed it early once just to use it as a means to extend my hand when I would have more than 7 cards at eot, which happened several times that draft. People in my playgroup will often hate draft it away from me now as I've managed to do devestating things with it several times now, and they always assume I've grabbed some prison effect.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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I though I had put them on there, but couldn't seem to find it. Cntrl + F would have worked I guess... List changed to reflect this.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Ill post all my proxies in the proxy thread when I get back to my computer with PS and MSE. Ill make that old border Blast from the past also.
[Remixes] - [The Brutal Cube - 360 Powered] - [My Cube Article] - ['Print-This' Wishlist]
It's actually already got the old frame, I'd just like to see it without that hideous silver border.
It was pretty much always useless. There may have been once or twice where it actually came in handy. For the most part it was just bad for the cube. It's a good card, but it's not a color fixer as much as it's a mana accelerator. At the cost of a useful card, we didn't find it worth it.
I would definitely run Pithing Needle before I'd run Chrome Mox. My artifact section sits at 65 cards at the moment and we still don't have room for the Mox. Pithing Needle, however, is a colorless answer to so many great cards in the cube. It's excellent.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Actually in your list, since you are running power, I think I'd cut it for Lightning Greaves.
Chrome Mox actually sees quite a bit more play than the LG did.
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
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(In -> Out)
Vedalken Shackles -> Pestermite
Palinchron -> Sun Ce, Young Conquerer
Jace, The Mindsculptor -> Rewind (I already have this guy templated up and ready to go, click on him to see.)
Psionic Blast -> Jace Beleren*
Sphinx of Jwar Isle -> Quicksilver Dragon
Phantom Centaur -> Cliffrunner Behemoth
Celestial Crusader -> Windborn Muse
Catastrophe -> Pristine Angel
Blast from the Past -> Pyrokinesis
Prophetic Bolt -> Gelectrode
Bituminous Blast -> Fulminator Mage
Stilmoon Cavalier -> Death Grasp
Goblin Trenches -> Duergar Hedge Mage
Smokestack -> Platinum Angel
Crucible of Worlds -> Sol Ring
* I feel like this merits an explanation. In an effort to keep with our policy to prevent the multiple-planeswalkers-with-the-same-name-rule from ever occurring, one jace has to come out for the other to go in. Why Psionic Blast? Because everyone likes burn, and blue could always use some more real removal. Another option we are considering is Rushing River (which happens to combo nicely with Crucible), but we think P. Blast is better.
Smokestack is the other artifact addition so that Crucible has one more thing to combo with.
10 Fetches
And any enemy discard effects.
I probably missed, some, but the point is that the list seems long enough.
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I'm curious, why is your group so opposed to multiple planeswalkers with the same type? It seems like a shame to lose such a great card as the original Jace.
Psionic Blast is better but could you explain the no 2 planeswalker with the same name thing? I don't like that at all.
I'm not a fan either, but my players (I can't really explain it, they try and I don't get it, but I have to appease them) don't think that the planeswalker uniqueness rule makes any sense when the cards have different names. I don't see how its really all that bad if Jace is a removal spell for the other Jace, but they think it is really unintuitive and awkward for a number of reasons, none of which seem very good. The primary reason they have is that it disagrees with the 'legend rule' which would let you have both Crovax the Cursed, Ascendent Evincar, and Crovax, Ascendant Hero all in play at the same time, but if he was a planeswalker, then it wouldn't be ok. Interestingly, they like 2 Jace Belerens removing each other, but not Jace Beleren and Jace, the Mindsculptor. Essentially they are stuck on the 2004 legend rule.
It's something that I might be able to change their minds about considering how cool both Jace cards are. But at least for the time being, my hands are tied. :/
[Remixes] - [The Brutal Cube - 360 Powered] - [My Cube Article] - ['Print-This' Wishlist]
If you have noone to cube with that is much worse than making your cube subpar however I would urge you to convince them otherwise. In fact the planeswalker rule makes a lot more sense than the legend rule, I think if WOTC could go back in time they would somehow fix it so that all the Crovaxes would kill themselves. Additionally it looks like they are going to keep printing duplicates so as time goes on you are losing more and more cube staples.
Exactly my stance on the matter. It bothers me that Crovax the Cursed and Crovax, Ascendant Hero don't die to state-based effects when both are in play - I mean, its the same guy, which is what the Legend Rule is about, right?
I think the Jace thing might be enough to push them over the edge on it, because they love the old Jace, and everyone who has seen the new one adores it as well. So telling them that one has to go because of their silly rule should change their minds - since clearly both should be in.
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If you want to be really technical about it, the Ascendant Hero comes from a different timeline than the other Crovax, so they are the same person, but at the same time, they're different.
Crovax the Cursed and Ascendant Evincar have no excuse, though.
I'd do my best to show them that having both Jaces in the cube is the best route possible. Cube cards should not be cut over an identity crisis.
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Yeah, I agree, new Jace and old Jace should be run in any cube that can run them.
Their argument that there should only be one of each planeswalker type reminds me of the people who said that they would play by pre-m10 rules when m10's rules changes were announced, wanting to stick by old rules either out of not wanting to adjust or exaggerated mental perceptions that it'd cause the world to end with cats and dogs living together.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
I think of Lighning Greaves as a 2 Fires of Yavimaya, with the benifit of Shroud. It's very rare that you drop 2 creatures a turn, so it will often act as that.
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Hey, bonda! Welcome to two days ago! J/K
I also like Lightning Greaves quite a bit. I've cursed it many times when playing against it. Giving a creature haste for 0 is good. Giving it shroud as well is really good. I wouldn't rate it at the top of the the equipment list, but it's definitely worthy of a spot.
Also, I agree that the planeswalker legend rule is weird when compared to the legend legend rule. I get that two Jace's can't be in play at the same time. That makes sense. It doesn't make sense that two Crovax's or Mirri's can be in play at the same time.
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Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Kamahl, Pit Fighter don't blow up when they see each other on the battlefield because they are inherently different; the magic that it takes to summon them are different, and so there is no recognition between them.
Planeswalker are different because they are not creatures. They have the spark that is constant even though the planeswalker changes. The magical inwardness that Jace possesses is the same even though the actions he performs is different.
But honestly, I would just both Jaces in there because I love that the Subtype matters. It's so awesome when you are holding an Ajani, and you must decide to wait a couple of turns to kill you opponent's Ajani so yours enters the battlefield alive, or to just have them both go, "BOOM!"