Not any more frequently than being passed a ZEN pack with no black cards in it, for example.
I find that it definitely does. Especially considering how many how few artifacts/lands Zendikar has compared to cube even if Zen packs were completely random it would still happen more often in cube boosters that packs get clumped.
metamind: everything you just said happens in any normal drafts as well, so I really don't see the problem, if you wish to create an artificial draft enviroment that makes signalling very easy then go for it, however thats simply not what I look for in a draft. Also, wizards actually does not have a card of each colour in packs nor do they try to, if you draft more normal drafting you would probably realize this, the situations you discussed in fact comes up a fair amount of time, just tonight, I opened foil nighthawk and normak nighthawk, what the hell was I suppose to do? but figuring out difficult situations is part of what differentiates a really good drafter from a mediocre one, so I feel by removing that you are taking something away from the whole drafting experience.
Donald_McDonald: Cube packs gets clumped because you didnt spend enough time shuffling it, I do agree it takes a long time, however the packs are usually fine when done correctly.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am petitioning for the end of: the Mythic rarity, the Planeswalker card type, the post-8th edition card faces, the 2010 rule changes, colorless cards that aren't artifacts or lands, the Legendary supertype, the stack, auras, multicolor cards, artifact creatures, tokens, goblins, merfolk, elves, sorceries, instants, and permanents. Basically, I just want to play with purple contraptions.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
Donald_McDonald: Cube packs gets clumped because you didnt spend enough time shuffling it, I do agree it takes a long time, however the packs are usually fine when done correctly.
They get clumped because 100% randomization sometimes leads to clumping. I pile shuffle between each draft. Even you agree they are usually fine which means sometimes they are clumped and in rare cases they are severely clumped.
so could you please explain why does cube packs clump more than normal boosters? cuz it definitely does not unless you haven't don't enough randomisation.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am petitioning for the end of: the Mythic rarity, the Planeswalker card type, the post-8th edition card faces, the 2010 rule changes, colorless cards that aren't artifacts or lands, the Legendary supertype, the stack, auras, multicolor cards, artifact creatures, tokens, goblins, merfolk, elves, sorceries, instants, and permanents. Basically, I just want to play with purple contraptions.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
Randomness doesn't lead to a perfect spread of 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/1 in any booster. That would be statisically incredibly unlikely. Clumps are normal and should be expected, no matter how much genuine randomization is performed. Not getting the problem :S
I like to organize the pool we're drafting from (unless we are doing a full reveal draft like Solomon), then randomize the pack. That way, there is less chance for crazy clumping while still giving nothing about the packs away.
ok now I am confused, obviously randomisatio doesn't lead to perfect spread because thats what setting up boosters do, and what I try to avoid, I guess we have different definition of clumping? I feel clumping is like, when there is 5 or more cards of 1 colour and the booster contain like 3 colour total or like 7 lands, thats clumping for me, anything less is acceptable for me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am petitioning for the end of: the Mythic rarity, the Planeswalker card type, the post-8th edition card faces, the 2010 rule changes, colorless cards that aren't artifacts or lands, the Legendary supertype, the stack, auras, multicolor cards, artifact creatures, tokens, goblins, merfolk, elves, sorceries, instants, and permanents. Basically, I just want to play with purple contraptions.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
so could you please explain why does cube packs clump more than normal boosters? cuz it definitely does not unless you haven't don't enough randomisation.
AFAIK, it's because normal boosters aren't really random. They appear that way, but the printing process involving the order of cards on the uncut sheets affects what order cards of any given rarity are placed into the packs.
Shuffling on the other hand, is definitely pretty random, if you do enough of it.
More on topic: I'm still working on getting my cube together (unpowered slightly 'limited' power-level feel), but it's looking like a 80x5 Color / 40-50 Multi. / 30-40 Art. / 25-30 Land split so far. I was thinking of something like seeding one multi, artifact, and land into each pack just to ensure their appearance (especially the manafixing lands and artifacts) and let the wind take me where it wants for the color distribution. Might save me some sorting time to only have to grab out the colorless/multicolored cards out of the piles after playing.
metamind: everything you just said happens in any normal drafts as well, so I really don't see the problem, if you wish to create an artificial draft enviroment that makes signalling very easy then go for it, however thats simply not what I look for in a draft. Also, wizards actually does not have a card of each colour in packs nor do they try to, if you draft more normal drafting you would probably realize this, the situations you discussed in fact comes up a fair amount of time, just tonight, I opened foil nighthawk and normak nighthawk, what the hell was I suppose to do? but figuring out difficult situations is part of what differentiates a really good drafter from a mediocre one, so I feel by removing that you are taking something away from the whole drafting experience.
Donald_McDonald: Cube packs gets clumped because you didnt spend enough time shuffling it, I do agree it takes a long time, however the packs are usually fine when done correctly.
Did you actually read the post? The point was it makes signaling more reliable and more rewarding, read it again please.
so could you please explain why does cube packs clump more than normal boosters? cuz it definitely does not unless you haven't don't enough randomisation.
Let's understand each other better. How much time do you shuffle your cube and how?
Wizards don't use randomized boosters. In fact, they go as far as to artificially include print runs, which divide cards by relative powerlevel, and whatever the developement team at wizards thinks is right just to ensure that drafts are more enjoyable. One of the major problems with SHA limited was that obelisks and panoramas (whoever doesn't know - the only common colorless fixers in a heavy multicolored set) were at the same print run and never appeared at the last 5 commons in the booster. IMO one of the major reasons why boosters should be shuffled after each pick at high draft tables is because the print runs are far less detectable that way (if you want to know why just ask). Print runs in the past did include a card of each color, if wizards have changed their policy with Zen (alara's were skewed because of all the multicolor) then my guess is that's because the print runs were to easy to figure out that way. If you figure out the print runs it kind of gives you an unfair edge at sanctioned limited events, and I know a player who used to exploit this knowledge in alara limited. It can also affect the price of boosters based on the previous boosters opened from that box etc. so a myriad of negative effects come with it. It is a wise decision.
Back to topic - making cube print runs will imitate regular boosters better, but it's much harder to do, and IMO won't serve the purpose better - we don't have the need for them and it will be awfully complicated.
And? This happens in real drafting all the time. So does opening ZEN packs with an entire color missing.
1) I don't want this to happen? I don't get this response. If people would tell you "why do you play card X, it seems bad to me" would you respond "And? Bad cards are opened in real drafts all the time"?
2) In real drafts the situations are less likely to happen and are never as extreme. Seeing 7+ cards of the same color (we have even seen up to 13, actually), opening 5 lands (3 of the same cycle FTL), two or more boosters devoid of a color in a row are all situations that don't happen in real drafts (at least not to me and anyone I know of). Why is it more likely in cube boosters?
First, because they are not printed from a computer's algorithm (or data from a pseudo-random database in the best case), they start the shuffle in an ordered state, already being sorted to decks. It is much harder to randomly disassemble all the stocks of decks than just generating the cards in a somewhat random way.
Second, because who will shuffle your boosters are not machines, they are humans. They tend to err, and tend to be lazy, which is a fatal combination. Even if merely one player somehow screwed up his shuffle the whole draft will suffer from his mistakes. You can not allow the bad, lazy shufflers to shuffle... if you can track back which player shuffled the wrong boosters, and then you have to tell him, he will deny, you'll give him another chance, bad feelings etc. I'll stop here.
Third, the players who shuffle your cards have a clear interest to alter the shuffle in their favor. Like we will never see the light of the day that pro players trade between cards from their boosters when shuffling them, it shouldn't happen if you play for prizes too. Yes, your players are honest and never cheat, but even if one player feels uncomfortable about it, or even worse doesn't participate because of it, it should concern you. No, it didn't happen to me, I wanted to stop it before it started to happen.
It also contradicts the image of the cube as a fun, cheap, fair and user-friendly tournament, which I try to act according to it as much as possible. When a new player comes around (and that happens a lot) and ask me how do we shuffle the cube, I don't need to explain them why players won't cheat them (btw, this did actually happen. The player participated in the tournament though).
Third, in a regular shuffle, you can never know how shuffled it really is. You can take samples, but it has quite a few drawbacks: decreasing your draftable pool, revealing relevant information about the draft, and more importantly, doesn't give you an accurate picture. If you don't accidentally hit the color conglomerations with your check, you cannot know they are there.
So in a way, dividing the cards into colors is like reprinting the cube cards, putting one card of each color (or which method you use) is like the print runs, and the rest is truly random.
Wizards don't use randomized boosters. In fact, they go as far as to artificially include print runs, which divide cards by relative powerlevel, and whatever the developement team at wizards thinks is right just to ensure that drafts are more enjoyable.
Well, that's not the case. My ZEN boosters are more skewed than my random cube boosters most of the time. And dividing up the power-level? That must be a joke. That doesn't even come remotely close to happening. In fact, it seems like I either open god-like packs or awful packs. I open just as many ZEN packs with 5+ of one color and 0 of another color as I do in the cube after building random ones.
People keep saying that Wizards "controls" the contents of the pack, but outside of guaranteed rarity slots, I haven't seen this to be even remotely the case. And I've opened A LOT of ZEN boosters.
Well, that's not the case. My ZEN boosters are more skewed than my random cube boosters most of the time. And dividing up the power-level? That must be a joke. That doesn't even come remotely close to happening. In fact, it seems like I either open god-like packs or awful packs. I open just as many ZEN packs with 5+ of one color and 0 of another color as I do in the cube after building random ones.
People keep saying that Wizards "controls" the contents of the pack, but outside of guaranteed rarity slots, I haven't seen this to be even remotely the case. And I've opened A LOT of ZEN boosters.
Strange that we are on opposite sides of this. I too have opened AT LEAST 500 ZEN boosters, probably a lot more than that and while they do occasionally get clumped it is not as bad as random cube boosters which can occasionally be hilariously clumped up at times. Guess we'll just have to go with the agree to disagree resolution.
The nice thing about the cube too, is the high density of lands and artifacts... so even if my pack is color light for my color(s), I'll still have a pick. Something that doesn't happen with skewed Wizard's boosters.
Well, that's not the case. My ZEN boosters are more skewed than my random cube boosters most of the time. And dividing up the power-level? That must be a joke. That doesn't even come remotely close to happening. In fact, it seems like I either open god-like packs or awful packs. I open just as many ZEN packs with 5+ of one color and 0 of another color as I do in the cube after building random ones.
People keep saying that Wizards "controls" the contents of the pack, but outside of guaranteed rarity slots, I haven't seen this to be even remotely the case. And I've opened A LOT of ZEN boosters.
I don't get this. You think this is a positive thing? That it makes Zen drafts more enjoyable than the other sets?
Also, +1 voice for adding this to the forum map. My last two posts were far too long for me to rewrite them again.
We have an 'odd' method for creating packs for groups 6 or less.
We sort the cube by color and then by CMC. We then deal out the sorted cards into the same number of piles as there are player. Each player then takes one of those piles (which are evenly balanced for color and CMC) and shuffles it up, removing 45 of the cards. So we bias the piles to be balanced, but the let them be random within that bias.
We had quite a few drafts where colors were underrepresented in the extreme (Multiple packs without the color - or worse, no cards from CMC 3 or 4 from that color in the whole draft), so we instituted this rule, which is annoying to do pre-draft, but we haven't ever had a bad one since.
For 7,8, or 9 people, we just shuffle up the cube and it works out fine.
I don't get this. You think this is a positive thing? That it makes Zen drafts more enjoyable than the other sets?
Yes I do. So far it's been the most enjoyable drafting I've had. I like the lack if identifiable signaling, which makes evaluating cards on their own merits of more value, and reading signals requires more work, since nothing is automatic. There is a higher amount of draft skill required for ZEN drafting, and the lack of pack control is one of those reasons. Just because good blue cards get passed to you doesn't mean the color is open. It requires more than just the utmost obvious signals to be good at drafting ZEN. Same should apply to the cube.
It works when it's 100% random, and it's faster and easier, more randomized and more fun (for me and my playgroup). I see no need to control the contents of the packs, since it would only decrease the enjoyment I get from the draft process, and make it more time consuming.
Yes I do. So far it's been the most enjoyable drafting I've had. I like the lack if identifiable signaling, which makes evaluating cards on their own merits of more value, and reading signals requires more work, since nothing is automatic. There is a higher amount of draft skill required for ZEN drafting, and the lack of pack control is one of those reasons. Just because good blue cards get passed to you doesn't mean the color is open. It requires more than just the utmost obvious signals to be good at drafting ZEN. Same should apply to the cube.
It works when it's 100% random, and it's faster and easier, more randomized and more fun (for me and my playgroup). I see no need to control the contents of the packs, since it would only decrease the enjoyment I get from the draft process, and make it more time consuming.
My experience with ZEN was quite different. Black and Red have the best common picks AND are very deep, which I dislike, because a ZEN draft can support 3 BR-decks. Actually it doesn't support 3 decks of the same combination at all, but those 3 decks end up being better than other decks far too often. There are no Control decks until now, maybe after Worldwake, when the consistency of good early drops dilutes.
My first Zen-drafts I blindly drafted BR, UB or RW and was very successful with it. Now I find myself picking up all those slow green goodies, which noone wants because they finally realized how fast ZEN-ZEN-ZEN is.
imho: Invasion, Ravnica and Onslaught were intense. Damn, I even liked Time Spiral, until Future Sight anyways.
ZEN brings one great difference in drafting, which I really like: The format is so fast, card evaluation differs from other sets. Roil Elemental for example isn't as great in ZEN as it would be in slower sets.
It works when it's 100% random, and it's faster and easier, more randomized and more fun (for me and my playgroup). I see no need to control the contents of the packs, since it would only decrease the enjoyment I get from the draft process, and make it more time consuming.
This 1000 times. I had a friend of mine try to convince me to organize the packs after a draft that had an abnormally small amount of red in it. I disagreed, saying that could happen sometimes, and it has been fine ever since. There's just no reason in my eyes to organize packs; the immediate signaling is a big turn off.
Yes I do. So far it's been the most enjoyable drafting I've had. I like the lack if identifiable signaling, which makes evaluating cards on their own merits of more value, and reading signals requires more work, since nothing is automatic. There is a higher amount of draft skill required for ZEN drafting, and the lack of pack control is one of those reasons. Just because good blue cards get passed to you doesn't mean the color is open. It requires more than just the utmost obvious signals to be good at drafting ZEN. Same should apply to the cube.
It works when it's 100% random, and it's faster and easier, more randomized and more fun (for me and my playgroup). I see no need to control the contents of the packs, since it would only decrease the enjoyment I get from the draft process, and make it more time consuming.
In the first iteration of the cube, we would separate the cube by color at the end of each draft, and put in X cards of each color/type to create our pool, and then make random packs from the pool. Not that big of a difference between that and what we do now, and it is not even close to worth the amount of time that it required. I prefer to play with 100% random pools, and 100% random packs. The only balancing that needs to be done is at the cube-design level.
In the first iteration of the cube, we would separate the cube by color at the end of each draft, and put in X cards of each color/type to create our pool, and then make random packs from the pool. Not that big of a difference between that and what we do now, and it is not even close to worth the amount of time that it required. I prefer to play with 100% random pools, and 100% random packs. The only balancing that needs to be done is at the cube-design level.
I find it slightly humorous that you think it takes too long to sort and shuffle the cube than it does just to shuffle it. It's not a huge deal for each person to sort their draft after it's over which makes sorting the entire cube a quick an easy process. After that the shuffle method takes five minutes at the max. Most of the time I shuffle it at home sometime before the draft. Even if I wait until time to draft before shuffling, it really doesn't get in the way of our draft. On the other hand, the one time we tried to just riffle shuffle the whole thing without the sort, we shuffled for what felt like forever and it was still very clumpy and didn't feel random at all.
Shuffling the cube is something the each crew needs to perfect on their own and do what feels right for them. There is no "right" way to do it.
Generally there's only one of each rare in a boosterbox for instance.
i know this post is from a while ago, but no. i frequently get doubles (although i've never gotten triples) of more than one rare in a booster box. real life example: an alara reborn box i bought had 2 jenara, asura of war, 2 lich lord of unx, 2 unscythe, killer of kings, 2 finest hour, 2 filigree angel, and 2 sovereigns of lost alara. this was probably the most duplicates i've ever gotten in a box but it's by no means unusual to get several doubles for me.
I don't like the idea of just riffle shuffling the whole cube either. The one time we did it, not only did it take for-freakin-ever, but it just didn't get the cards random enough. There were lots of clumps and the packs just didn't feel right. I'm with metamind on this one, the best option is somewhere in the middle of the road.
i keep reading that just shuffling the whole cube is fast, but i don't understand why anyone would say that. the entire reason i sorted by color in the first place was because it took way way too long to shuffle the whole cube. maybe those who think it's fast to shuffle the whole cube are ok with getting entire packs of white cards or lands, but in my mind that's an obviously BAD shuffle job. in order to actually randomize the cube for real (which, yes, would include truly random clumps, and that's fine) you have to shuffle for about ten times as long as it takes to shuffle each section individually, and dole out X of each color/category per pack. you can then completely shuffle the pool that so the packs themselves are not perfectly organized (2 red in each pack, etc) which should preserve signaling to some extent. personally i'd rather have truly random packs but it's just not worth my time to shuffle 600 cards properly.
In the first iteration of the cube, we would separate the cube by color at the end of each draft, and put in X cards of each color/type to create our pool, and then make random packs from the pool. Not that big of a difference between that and what we do now, and it is not even close to worth the amount of time that it required. I prefer to play with 100% random pools, and 100% random packs. The only balancing that needs to be done is at the cube-design level.
this doesn't make any sense to me. i've made completely randomized packs by myself, and then i've made "fixed" packs (which are easily unfixed by shuffling the packs together) by myself, and the former takes a vastly longer amount of time. do you have some kind of shuffling machine or something?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
this doesn't make any sense to me. i've made completely randomized packs by myself, and then i've made "fixed" packs (which are easily unfixed by shuffling the packs together) by myself, and the former takes a vastly longer amount of time. do you have some kind of shuffling machine or something?
No, it just takes longer to shuffle the entire cube, make sure all the piles are separated, divide the packs up evenly, shuffle again and make packs than it does just to shuffle the entire cube and make packs. There's extra steps involved. Even if everything is already divided up, you still need to shuffle just as much to ensure randomization, and every card has to be shuffled still.
I still think it's much easier to just separate the cards after each draft and then do one five minute pile shuffle of the whole thing. The packs aren't so evenly stacked that you can easily tell what the player next to you took at P1P1, but they aren't full of the same of any type of card either. The one time we tried to shuffle the entire thing, we shuffled until we were tired of shuffling and still ended up with clumpy packs.
In the end the best way to shuffle your cube is whatever works best for you and your crew.
If all the people who are cubing grab random stacks of cards and start riffling, it doesn't take very long to have shuffled the entire thing. Then while making packs, grab some cards from a few different stacks to supply your packs.
Just make sure people do some shuffling into stacks when they put the cards back into the cube after de-landing. This will prevent clumping from previous decks by quite a bit.
All this organizing and sorting and manipulating only wastes time that could be spent playing/drafting/etc.
I find that it definitely does. Especially considering how many how few artifacts/lands Zendikar has compared to cube even if Zen packs were completely random it would still happen more often in cube boosters that packs get clumped.
I find that it definitely doesn't. So there.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Donald_McDonald: Cube packs gets clumped because you didnt spend enough time shuffling it, I do agree it takes a long time, however the packs are usually fine when done correctly.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
They get clumped because 100% randomization sometimes leads to clumping. I pile shuffle between each draft. Even you agree they are usually fine which means sometimes they are clumped and in rare cases they are severely clumped.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
AFAIK, it's because normal boosters aren't really random. They appear that way, but the printing process involving the order of cards on the uncut sheets affects what order cards of any given rarity are placed into the packs.
Shuffling on the other hand, is definitely pretty random, if you do enough of it.
More on topic: I'm still working on getting my cube together (unpowered slightly 'limited' power-level feel), but it's looking like a 80x5 Color / 40-50 Multi. / 30-40 Art. / 25-30 Land split so far. I was thinking of something like seeding one multi, artifact, and land into each pack just to ensure their appearance (especially the manafixing lands and artifacts) and let the wind take me where it wants for the color distribution. Might save me some sorting time to only have to grab out the colorless/multicolored cards out of the piles after playing.
My Cube Blog @theCubeMiser on Twitter
Did you actually read the post? The point was it makes signaling more reliable and more rewarding, read it again please.
Let's understand each other better. How much time do you shuffle your cube and how?
Wizards don't use randomized boosters. In fact, they go as far as to artificially include print runs, which divide cards by relative powerlevel, and whatever the developement team at wizards thinks is right just to ensure that drafts are more enjoyable. One of the major problems with SHA limited was that obelisks and panoramas (whoever doesn't know - the only common colorless fixers in a heavy multicolored set) were at the same print run and never appeared at the last 5 commons in the booster. IMO one of the major reasons why boosters should be shuffled after each pick at high draft tables is because the print runs are far less detectable that way (if you want to know why just ask). Print runs in the past did include a card of each color, if wizards have changed their policy with Zen (alara's were skewed because of all the multicolor) then my guess is that's because the print runs were to easy to figure out that way. If you figure out the print runs it kind of gives you an unfair edge at sanctioned limited events, and I know a player who used to exploit this knowledge in alara limited. It can also affect the price of boosters based on the previous boosters opened from that box etc. so a myriad of negative effects come with it. It is a wise decision.
Back to topic - making cube print runs will imitate regular boosters better, but it's much harder to do, and IMO won't serve the purpose better - we don't have the need for them and it will be awfully complicated.
1) I don't want this to happen? I don't get this response. If people would tell you "why do you play card X, it seems bad to me" would you respond "And? Bad cards are opened in real drafts all the time"?
2) In real drafts the situations are less likely to happen and are never as extreme. Seeing 7+ cards of the same color (we have even seen up to 13, actually), opening 5 lands (3 of the same cycle FTL), two or more boosters devoid of a color in a row are all situations that don't happen in real drafts (at least not to me and anyone I know of). Why is it more likely in cube boosters?
First, because they are not printed from a computer's algorithm (or data from a pseudo-random database in the best case), they start the shuffle in an ordered state, already being sorted to decks. It is much harder to randomly disassemble all the stocks of decks than just generating the cards in a somewhat random way.
Second, because who will shuffle your boosters are not machines, they are humans. They tend to err, and tend to be lazy, which is a fatal combination. Even if merely one player somehow screwed up his shuffle the whole draft will suffer from his mistakes. You can not allow the bad, lazy shufflers to shuffle... if you can track back which player shuffled the wrong boosters, and then you have to tell him, he will deny, you'll give him another chance, bad feelings etc. I'll stop here.
Third, the players who shuffle your cards have a clear interest to alter the shuffle in their favor. Like we will never see the light of the day that pro players trade between cards from their boosters when shuffling them, it shouldn't happen if you play for prizes too. Yes, your players are honest and never cheat, but even if one player feels uncomfortable about it, or even worse doesn't participate because of it, it should concern you. No, it didn't happen to me, I wanted to stop it before it started to happen.
It also contradicts the image of the cube as a fun, cheap, fair and user-friendly tournament, which I try to act according to it as much as possible. When a new player comes around (and that happens a lot) and ask me how do we shuffle the cube, I don't need to explain them why players won't cheat them (btw, this did actually happen. The player participated in the tournament though).
Third, in a regular shuffle, you can never know how shuffled it really is. You can take samples, but it has quite a few drawbacks: decreasing your draftable pool, revealing relevant information about the draft, and more importantly, doesn't give you an accurate picture. If you don't accidentally hit the color conglomerations with your check, you cannot know they are there.
So in a way, dividing the cards into colors is like reprinting the cube cards, putting one card of each color (or which method you use) is like the print runs, and the rest is truly random.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Well, that's not the case. My ZEN boosters are more skewed than my random cube boosters most of the time. And dividing up the power-level? That must be a joke. That doesn't even come remotely close to happening. In fact, it seems like I either open god-like packs or awful packs. I open just as many ZEN packs with 5+ of one color and 0 of another color as I do in the cube after building random ones.
People keep saying that Wizards "controls" the contents of the pack, but outside of guaranteed rarity slots, I haven't seen this to be even remotely the case. And I've opened A LOT of ZEN boosters.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Strange that we are on opposite sides of this. I too have opened AT LEAST 500 ZEN boosters, probably a lot more than that and while they do occasionally get clumped it is not as bad as random cube boosters which can occasionally be hilariously clumped up at times. Guess we'll just have to go with the agree to disagree resolution.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I don't get this. You think this is a positive thing? That it makes Zen drafts more enjoyable than the other sets?
Also, +1 voice for adding this to the forum map. My last two posts were far too long for me to rewrite them again.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
We sort the cube by color and then by CMC. We then deal out the sorted cards into the same number of piles as there are player. Each player then takes one of those piles (which are evenly balanced for color and CMC) and shuffles it up, removing 45 of the cards. So we bias the piles to be balanced, but the let them be random within that bias.
We had quite a few drafts where colors were underrepresented in the extreme (Multiple packs without the color - or worse, no cards from CMC 3 or 4 from that color in the whole draft), so we instituted this rule, which is annoying to do pre-draft, but we haven't ever had a bad one since.
For 7,8, or 9 people, we just shuffle up the cube and it works out fine.
[Remixes] - [The Brutal Cube - 360 Powered] - [My Cube Article] - ['Print-This' Wishlist]
Yes I do. So far it's been the most enjoyable drafting I've had. I like the lack if identifiable signaling, which makes evaluating cards on their own merits of more value, and reading signals requires more work, since nothing is automatic. There is a higher amount of draft skill required for ZEN drafting, and the lack of pack control is one of those reasons. Just because good blue cards get passed to you doesn't mean the color is open. It requires more than just the utmost obvious signals to be good at drafting ZEN. Same should apply to the cube.
It works when it's 100% random, and it's faster and easier, more randomized and more fun (for me and my playgroup). I see no need to control the contents of the packs, since it would only decrease the enjoyment I get from the draft process, and make it more time consuming.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My experience with ZEN was quite different. Black and Red have the best common picks AND are very deep, which I dislike, because a ZEN draft can support 3 BR-decks. Actually it doesn't support 3 decks of the same combination at all, but those 3 decks end up being better than other decks far too often. There are no Control decks until now, maybe after Worldwake, when the consistency of good early drops dilutes.
My first Zen-drafts I blindly drafted BR, UB or RW and was very successful with it. Now I find myself picking up all those slow green goodies, which noone wants because they finally realized how fast ZEN-ZEN-ZEN is.
imho: Invasion, Ravnica and Onslaught were intense. Damn, I even liked Time Spiral, until Future Sight anyways.
ZEN brings one great difference in drafting, which I really like: The format is so fast, card evaluation differs from other sets. Roil Elemental for example isn't as great in ZEN as it would be in slower sets.
This 1000 times. I had a friend of mine try to convince me to organize the packs after a draft that had an abnormally small amount of red in it. I disagreed, saying that could happen sometimes, and it has been fine ever since. There's just no reason in my eyes to organize packs; the immediate signaling is a big turn off.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Did you ever try any other shuffle?
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
In the first iteration of the cube, we would separate the cube by color at the end of each draft, and put in X cards of each color/type to create our pool, and then make random packs from the pool. Not that big of a difference between that and what we do now, and it is not even close to worth the amount of time that it required. I prefer to play with 100% random pools, and 100% random packs. The only balancing that needs to be done is at the cube-design level.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I find it slightly humorous that you think it takes too long to sort and shuffle the cube than it does just to shuffle it. It's not a huge deal for each person to sort their draft after it's over which makes sorting the entire cube a quick an easy process. After that the shuffle method takes five minutes at the max. Most of the time I shuffle it at home sometime before the draft. Even if I wait until time to draft before shuffling, it really doesn't get in the way of our draft. On the other hand, the one time we tried to just riffle shuffle the whole thing without the sort, we shuffled for what felt like forever and it was still very clumpy and didn't feel random at all.
Shuffling the cube is something the each crew needs to perfect on their own and do what feels right for them. There is no "right" way to do it.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
i know this post is from a while ago, but no. i frequently get doubles (although i've never gotten triples) of more than one rare in a booster box. real life example: an alara reborn box i bought had 2 jenara, asura of war, 2 lich lord of unx, 2 unscythe, killer of kings, 2 finest hour, 2 filigree angel, and 2 sovereigns of lost alara. this was probably the most duplicates i've ever gotten in a box but it's by no means unusual to get several doubles for me.
i keep reading that just shuffling the whole cube is fast, but i don't understand why anyone would say that. the entire reason i sorted by color in the first place was because it took way way too long to shuffle the whole cube. maybe those who think it's fast to shuffle the whole cube are ok with getting entire packs of white cards or lands, but in my mind that's an obviously BAD shuffle job. in order to actually randomize the cube for real (which, yes, would include truly random clumps, and that's fine) you have to shuffle for about ten times as long as it takes to shuffle each section individually, and dole out X of each color/category per pack. you can then completely shuffle the pool that so the packs themselves are not perfectly organized (2 red in each pack, etc) which should preserve signaling to some extent. personally i'd rather have truly random packs but it's just not worth my time to shuffle 600 cards properly.
this doesn't make any sense to me. i've made completely randomized packs by myself, and then i've made "fixed" packs (which are easily unfixed by shuffling the packs together) by myself, and the former takes a vastly longer amount of time. do you have some kind of shuffling machine or something?
No, it just takes longer to shuffle the entire cube, make sure all the piles are separated, divide the packs up evenly, shuffle again and make packs than it does just to shuffle the entire cube and make packs. There's extra steps involved. Even if everything is already divided up, you still need to shuffle just as much to ensure randomization, and every card has to be shuffled still.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
In the end the best way to shuffle your cube is whatever works best for you and your crew.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Just make sure people do some shuffling into stacks when they put the cards back into the cube after de-landing. This will prevent clumping from previous decks by quite a bit.
All this organizing and sorting and manipulating only wastes time that could be spent playing/drafting/etc.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029