Out of my tentative list of 360, I count 67 cards that can deal with the Black Crusader on their own. I run more finishers than most people probably, so that list may be inflated. I'm also being very generous about what can "deal" with her, by including cards like Capsize, Shackles, and Chimeric Mass.
In my cube, the only cards that deal with her for equal to or less than her casting cost are Disfigure, Edicts, Slaughter Pact, Great Sable Stag, Ohran Viper, Wake Thresher, Old Man of the Sea, Swords to Plowshares, Balance, Journey to Nowhere, Temporal Isolation, Oblivion Ring.
Is that a valuable metric? Maybe not. But I think she's worth a wee bit of testing at some point.
Out of my tentative list of 360, I count 67 cards that can deal with the Black Crusader on their own. I run more finishers than most people probably, so that list may be inflated. I'm also being very generous about what can "deal" with her, by including cards like Capsize, Shackles, and Chimeric Mass.
In my cube, the only cards that deal with her for equal to or less than her casting cost are Disfigure, Edicts, Slaughter Pact, Great Sable Stag, Ohran Viper, Wake Thresher, Old Man of the Sea, Swords to Plowshares, Balance, Journey to Nowhere, Temporal Isolation, Oblivion Ring.
Is that a valuable metric? Maybe not. But I think she's worth a wee bit of testing at some point.
Neither Slaughter Pact nor Ohran Viper can deal with it. Ohran Viper doesn't deal damage cause of first strike and Slaughter Pact is non-black. And none of the white removal effects it either.
Out of my tentative list of 360, I count 67 cards that can deal with the Black Crusader on their own. I run more finishers than most people probably, so that list may be inflated. I'm also being very generous about what can "deal" with her, by including cards like Capsize, Shackles, and Chimeric Mass.
In my cube, the only cards that deal with her for equal to or less than her casting cost are Disfigure, Edicts, Slaughter Pact, Great Sable Stag, Ohran Viper, Wake Thresher, Old Man of the Sea, Swords to Plowshares, Balance, Journey to Nowhere, Temporal Isolation, Oblivion Ring.
Is that a valuable metric? Maybe not. But I think she's worth a wee bit of testing at some point.
Maybe you should read the card again. only have those cards you named work.
Why deal with the black crusader? It has to connect with you 5 times in a row before it does anything, and it's pulling in the opposite direction from the rest of your creatures. And any big creature just kills it.
Why deal with the black crusader? It has to connect with you 5 times in a row before it does anything, and it's pulling in the opposite direction from the rest of your creatures. And any big creature just kills it.
This. Drop a Fatty McFatterson in front of him and he's stopped dead in his tracks. He'll probably win the game against a RW deck (assuming that aren't packing an artifact creature that just kills him). Against every single other possible combination, he'll likely get dealt with prior to handing out ten poison counters. In which case, he did absolutely nothing.
Slow down there guys. The people who are considering him aren't considering him as an aggro creature. We're considering him as a control creature, because he stabilises the board superbly, as well as or better than many more expensive creatures, whilst having protection from the two best aggro colours. And if he gets the chance to switch to offense later on, he does a decent job there, especially with any kind of equipment.
You're right that as part of a critical mass of aggro assault dudes, he can be let through safely 3 or 4 times, making him a little pointless in most scenarios. But he stabilises as a counter to aggro very well indeed, and he isn't limited to a purely defensive role. Like I said before, he can change role lategame with a little help. In the B/w control deck I drafted yesterday he would've been a very welcome pick, which is what is tempting me to at least give him a shot.
It's a black Paladin en-Vec that's much worse at killing players, but better at killing creatures.
But Paladin en-Vec is good in every white deck, including aggro. Which is what makes him such a good pick. A control-only Paladin en-Vec wouldn't make the cut in my cube.
Like I said before, I don't want a creature in my deck that is pulling in the opposite direction form the rest of my team. Dealing damage to players in the form of poison counters is a tremendous drawback in the cube. Just enormous.
Dealing damage to players in the form of poison counters is a tremendous drawback in the cube. Just enormous.
I agree. I love the idea of poison and I think it's cool that they brought it back (Didn't we all have a poison deck back in the day with Marsh Viper in it?).
I'm trying to think of a poison creature that I'd put in my cube, but I'm really coming up short. Maybe a 5/5 with shroud and flying? Even then, I don't know. I think without a critical mass of those cards in the cube and enabling it as an archetype, it's basically pointless. One poison guy, regardless of worth in defense, is still pretty bad. Sure he can sit there and block a few guys and kill the aggro onslaught, but what then? He turns sideways, hands out a few poison counters and then gets dealt with. Like wtwlf said, I'd rather have Wall of Souls as a good black defensive only card.
It's a black Paladin en-Vec that's much worse at killing players, but better at killing creatures.
But Paladin en-Vec is good in every white deck, including aggro. Which is what makes him such a good pick. A control-only Paladin en-Vec wouldn't make the cut in my cube.
Like I said before, I don't want a creature in my deck that is pulling in the opposite direction form the rest of my team. Dealing damage to players in the form of poison counters is a tremendous drawback in the cube. Just enormous.
I'm not sure how much of a drawback it is, though. Once I've stabilised the board, do I really care how I'm killing players? It probably won't be the Crusader that deals the killing blow, but more likely a 6 or 7 mana finisher. The Crusader's job here is being awesome at killing aggro dudes and 3/3s. The ability to attack after having done that is just gravy - sure, not doing Poison would be better, but at that point it shouldn't be relevant. I can't think of a single time when I've been playing control where Paladin en-Vec's two lategame swings have been the difference between winning and losing - they'll speed things up a turn at best, and control's late game shouldn't need the boost. But if I ever do find myself in the situation where he's around late game with a Jitte or something on the table, I could do a lot worse than have a swing with Crusader.
Maybe our play styles are a bit different, but I would personally pick this guy in a control heavy deck. Like you seem to be fond of saying, draft him and beat the doubters with him
At very least I may cut another 'control only' black card for him, as he has the potential to be a total nightmare for aggro.
Also, Wall of Souls is not a good control card. Really. It doesn't help kill the creatures attacking you, and you shouldn't care about dealing damage at that stage. If anything, it's a semi decent midrange or aggro mirror card. On the other hand, it's totally hilarious in multiplayer
Phyrexian Crusader would be an instant inclusion if only he had Wither instead of Infect. A small difference rules wise, a huge difference regarding cubability.
Maybe our play styles are a bit different, but I would personally pick this guy in a control heavy deck.
You missed my point. I specifically said my black section isn't looking for a 3CC control-only creature. That's not what I want at all. Especially not one that is terrible at helping me kill my opponent.
I didn't say I wouldn't play it in a control heavy black deck. I said I'm not putting it in the cube because I don't wand a 3CC creature that's only playable in control-heavy black decks.
The advantage of Paladin en-Vec is that it's good in every deck. That's simply not the case with a 2-power infect creature. Fine as a blocker... but I don't want blocker-only creatures in by black decks.
Black En-Vec wanna be isn't good. Try him your self but hostly, infect needs be wither, or infect onthis needs to be on an ON/OFF switch. Or it should have just had poison 1-2
the white one is clearly amazing, and fits pretty much in every cube.
the black however isn't as good, but if a cube leans more towards black control than black aggro, maybe. Which I think is something to be considered. I'd also like to point out the black one has a third pseudo protection in the form of being black. Nearly shutting off the 2 best aggro colors removal as a well as receiving a bonus for being black makes this guy hard to deal with. before people start counting all the edicts and other black cards that could kill this guy with out targeted non-black removal I would also suggest you consider that the very deck wanting to run this guy would be pulling those cards from the draft pool, which although minor, would further skew his killability in a real world scenario. As a sum up to he point I am trying to make, being black as well as being drafted in a black control deck would give this guy an almost third protection, meaning he would be protected from the 3 best removal colors a lot of the time. So treating him as an answer to aggro, a black wall that kills things, as well as acknowledging he has the off chance of stealing the game (i lost count of the number of times an unlikely win has occurred in my cube), I don't think he should be ranked as an auto-out. I wouldn't rank the black guy cube worthy with out the intent to play him in black control but I do see it as a potentially good niche that some groups would enjoy.
Absolutely. If heavy control is black's primary function, this dude is probably fine. I say probably still, because I don't know how disruptive running creatures that don't deal damage to players will be for control builds. My initial impression is that it won't be as disruptive to the strategy as it would be if you were trying to run poison in an aggro/mid-range deck... but it's still pretty bad. You really want all your win conditions trying to win in the same fashion, regardless of the speed of your deck.
However, we play a lot of black mid-range around here... and a poison creature (regardless of it's resiliency and combat prowess) simply won't fit into decks we build. And all the control decks I build have a low creature count... and I can't afford to have one of those creature slots spent on something trying to win in a completely different way than the rest of my creatures. I simply don't have enough win-conditions in control to have them not work together.
Man, I want that White Mirran to be in my cube. I'm not sure if I should post it here or in my cube thread, but any idea what to take out in the white section to make room for it?
It's really going to vary a lot from cube to cube. Plus, we may get a couple more white cards from this set for the cube... so I wouldn't plan on exact cuts until we see more of the spoiler.
If you're just going to play him and then "sit back on him" and use him as a control creature, you might as well change "Infect" to "Wither"; in which case, 3 mana for a 2/2 Wither guy isn't exciting at all.
If he was Wither instead of Infect... man. Too good. But not being able to attack with him as part of a combined effort win condition is a drag. I agree that I'm not excited about the prospects of a 3 mana blocker... despite his resiliency.
Man, I want that White Mirran to be in my cube. I'm not sure if I should post it here or in my cube thread, but any idea what to take out in the white section to make room for it?
Honestly I would love to cut a 4 mana creature or spell from white for it.
I think Exhalted angel is on its last leg right now. Can't remember the last time I saw it drafted.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
That is just crazy talk. Celestial Crusader is much much worse than Exalted Angel.
I agree whole heartedly, I'm just stating a trend. He is not in my top 5 best white creatures but surely in the top 10, which is more than competitive enough. As you can see from my updated cube list its not even remotely the only flier in white, or the worst. It just always seems to be one of those cards that is on the edge of their 23-24 cards for most players. Stonecloacker makes it in more often, and that might also be surprising to some, although I can attest to how much of a blow out it can be when timed correctly.
I guess I can't figure out how it always seems to be on the sidelines in our drafts more often then I would expect.
In my cube, the only cards that deal with her for equal to or less than her casting cost are Disfigure, Edicts, Slaughter Pact, Great Sable Stag, Ohran Viper, Wake Thresher, Old Man of the Sea, Swords to Plowshares, Balance, Journey to Nowhere, Temporal Isolation, Oblivion Ring.
Is that a valuable metric? Maybe not. But I think she's worth a wee bit of testing at some point.
Neither Slaughter Pact nor Ohran Viper can deal with it. Ohran Viper doesn't deal damage cause of first strike and Slaughter Pact is non-black. And none of the white removal effects it either.
Maybe you should read the card again. only have those cards you named work.
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This. Drop a Fatty McFatterson in front of him and he's stopped dead in his tracks. He'll probably win the game against a RW deck (assuming that aren't packing an artifact creature that just kills him). Against every single other possible combination, he'll likely get dealt with prior to handing out ten poison counters. In which case, he did absolutely nothing.
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You're right that as part of a critical mass of aggro assault dudes, he can be let through safely 3 or 4 times, making him a little pointless in most scenarios. But he stabilises as a counter to aggro very well indeed, and he isn't limited to a purely defensive role. Like I said before, he can change role lategame with a little help. In the B/w control deck I drafted yesterday he would've been a very welcome pick, which is what is tempting me to at least give him a shot.
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But Paladin en-Vec is good in every white deck, including aggro. Which is what makes him such a good pick. A control-only Paladin en-Vec wouldn't make the cut in my cube.
Like I said before, I don't want a creature in my deck that is pulling in the opposite direction form the rest of my team. Dealing damage to players in the form of poison counters is a tremendous drawback in the cube. Just enormous.
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I agree. I love the idea of poison and I think it's cool that they brought it back (Didn't we all have a poison deck back in the day with Marsh Viper in it?).
I'm trying to think of a poison creature that I'd put in my cube, but I'm really coming up short. Maybe a 5/5 with shroud and flying? Even then, I don't know. I think without a critical mass of those cards in the cube and enabling it as an archetype, it's basically pointless. One poison guy, regardless of worth in defense, is still pretty bad. Sure he can sit there and block a few guys and kill the aggro onslaught, but what then? He turns sideways, hands out a few poison counters and then gets dealt with. Like wtwlf said, I'd rather have Wall of Souls as a good black defensive only card.
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I'm not sure how much of a drawback it is, though. Once I've stabilised the board, do I really care how I'm killing players? It probably won't be the Crusader that deals the killing blow, but more likely a 6 or 7 mana finisher. The Crusader's job here is being awesome at killing aggro dudes and 3/3s. The ability to attack after having done that is just gravy - sure, not doing Poison would be better, but at that point it shouldn't be relevant. I can't think of a single time when I've been playing control where Paladin en-Vec's two lategame swings have been the difference between winning and losing - they'll speed things up a turn at best, and control's late game shouldn't need the boost. But if I ever do find myself in the situation where he's around late game with a Jitte or something on the table, I could do a lot worse than have a swing with Crusader.
Maybe our play styles are a bit different, but I would personally pick this guy in a control heavy deck. Like you seem to be fond of saying, draft him and beat the doubters with him
At very least I may cut another 'control only' black card for him, as he has the potential to be a total nightmare for aggro.
Also, Wall of Souls is not a good control card. Really. It doesn't help kill the creatures attacking you, and you shouldn't care about dealing damage at that stage. If anything, it's a semi decent midrange or aggro mirror card. On the other hand, it's totally hilarious in multiplayer
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You missed my point. I specifically said my black section isn't looking for a 3CC control-only creature. That's not what I want at all. Especially not one that is terrible at helping me kill my opponent.
I didn't say I wouldn't play it in a control heavy black deck. I said I'm not putting it in the cube because I don't wand a 3CC creature that's only playable in control-heavy black decks.
The advantage of Paladin en-Vec is that it's good in every deck. That's simply not the case with a 2-power infect creature. Fine as a blocker... but I don't want blocker-only creatures in by black decks.
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the black however isn't as good, but if a cube leans more towards black control than black aggro, maybe. Which I think is something to be considered. I'd also like to point out the black one has a third pseudo protection in the form of being black. Nearly shutting off the 2 best aggro colors removal as a well as receiving a bonus for being black makes this guy hard to deal with. before people start counting all the edicts and other black cards that could kill this guy with out targeted non-black removal I would also suggest you consider that the very deck wanting to run this guy would be pulling those cards from the draft pool, which although minor, would further skew his killability in a real world scenario. As a sum up to he point I am trying to make, being black as well as being drafted in a black control deck would give this guy an almost third protection, meaning he would be protected from the 3 best removal colors a lot of the time. So treating him as an answer to aggro, a black wall that kills things, as well as acknowledging he has the off chance of stealing the game (i lost count of the number of times an unlikely win has occurred in my cube), I don't think he should be ranked as an auto-out. I wouldn't rank the black guy cube worthy with out the intent to play him in black control but I do see it as a potentially good niche that some groups would enjoy.
However, we play a lot of black mid-range around here... and a poison creature (regardless of it's resiliency and combat prowess) simply won't fit into decks we build. And all the control decks I build have a low creature count... and I can't afford to have one of those creature slots spent on something trying to win in a completely different way than the rest of my creatures. I simply don't have enough win-conditions in control to have them not work together.
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If you're just going to play him and then "sit back on him" and use him as a control creature, you might as well change "Infect" to "Wither"; in which case, 3 mana for a 2/2 Wither guy isn't exciting at all.
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Honestly I would love to cut a 4 mana creature or spell from white for it.
I think Exhalted angel is on its last leg right now. Can't remember the last time I saw it drafted.
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this sums it up for me.
well, he doesn't run battlegrace angel, so i think he really is talking about exalted.
yeah, i'm with you on this one.
That is just crazy talk. Celestial Crusader is much much worse than Exalted Angel.
I agree whole heartedly, I'm just stating a trend. He is not in my top 5 best white creatures but surely in the top 10, which is more than competitive enough. As you can see from my updated cube list its not even remotely the only flier in white, or the worst. It just always seems to be one of those cards that is on the edge of their 23-24 cards for most players. Stonecloacker makes it in more often, and that might also be surprising to some, although I can attest to how much of a blow out it can be when timed correctly.
I guess I can't figure out how it always seems to be on the sidelines in our drafts more often then I would expect.
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