MTG Salvation

Why is this card good in cube?
Hey all, so I was talking to my friend the other day and we realized that sometimes there will be a card that everyone says is awesome, but for some reason we just don't get what makes it so awesome. We either don't understand what deck it gets played in, don't understand how you play with it, or don't understand what it's supposed to do for us. This is the thread to ask those questions of the Cube community!

This is not a thread to debate the cubeworthiness of cards. This is a thread to learn why cards are good.

Answers should NOT be:
-Hyperbolic
-Condescending
-Vague

Answers SHOULD be:
-Constructive
-Specific
-Realistic
-suggest deck styles the card is good in
-suggest how to play the card

Example:
"Why is Decree of Justice good? It seems like it's always overcosted for what it can do..."

BAD answer: "Are you kidding? You think Decree of Justice is bad? Dude, Decree isn't even close to getting cut in my cube. Basically no card does as much as decree, it just wins games. I can't believe you think its bad!!"

GOOD answer: "None of Decree of Justice's modes are particularly powerful, but the fact that it can use any of them is part of what makes it such a good card. That, in addition to the fact that its cycling mode is both instant speed and uncounterable means that you can cycle mid-combat for blockers, cycle end of turn for extra attackers, hard-cast late game for a control finisher, or make a really expensive 4/4 flyer in the midgame. It can be played in control decks as an early blocker/late game win condition, or in aggro decks as uncounterable pseudo-reach."


Look here before posting
I'm going to try to keep up with the thread and update this section with cards that already have answers. I'll try to choose the most organized, well thought out posts.

Updated 3/3/11 up to post 210

This is the card evaluation thread, and it's a sticky.

Quote from wtwlf123

This is the card evaluation thread, and it's a sticky.

The card eval thread is for single card discussions on whether a card is cube-worthy. I meant this for people who want to know how to play cards that are good. Did you read my post?

Quote from porpoise921

This is not a thread to debate the cubeworthiness of cards. This is a thread to learn why cards are good.

Quote from porpoise921

The card eval thread is for single card discussions on whether a card is cube-worthy. I meant this for people who want to know how to play cards that are good. Did you read my post?

I read your post and it seems like you could ask the same questions in the Card Evaluation thread and get the same answers you are looking for here.

Quote from porpoise »

I meant this for people who want to know how to play cards that are good. Did you read my post?

Yes. If you pose the question in the card evaluation thread "What is the best way to effectively use Decree of Justice" it'll be answered there, in a constructive way. If you ask "Decree looks like a pile of crap... how come so many people use this crap card?" then it'll be answered with that same tone.

Ask constructive questions in the card evaluation thread, and you'll get constructive answers. This is exactly what the other stickied thread exists for.

Quote from sexyindiancurry

However, this could save a lot of time 'Dead Horse' topic wise.

edit: If you linked to people's posts in the OP, it'd be pretty useful overall, since you could just forward people here

I like the way you think.

You could also ask people that run said card(s) in their respective threads, and I'm sure they'll give you a constructive answer about their experiences.

One problem with linking posts from the Card Discussion Thread is that most posts there are very specific answers to specific questions. From what I've read of the monstrous thread, I haven't seen many complete answers about why a card is good. (Not to say the posts are bad, just that the question asked is different than what I made this thread for)

The problem with the big stickie threads is that they are a pain for people who just came here. A year and a half ago I read avery thread almost completely before I made my cube but nowadays that would be a major time investment. There might be some good information on pages 20-40 of some threads but the only way now to get to those seems to be if you are really good at searching or if you like I did as a cube beginner.

i think i understand what the original poster is getting at. a collection of concise, straightforward explanations of unusual cards whose applications are hard to understand would be helpful to new cubers. like for example, how you use smokestack and what a deck with it might look like, and likewise for cards like upheaval (since this gets discussed on a pretty regular basis), greater gargadon, etc. not fringe cards, not dark horse cards, but staples that get asked about by new posters. i think it would be helpful to consolidate them into the first post.

the major issue with the card eval thread is it's so huge and time consuming to navigate. having a quick reference to some basic explanations could be helpful. i'm not certain it's necessary, but i understand the difference between this and the sticky.

Quote from porpoise921

One problem with linking posts from the Card Discussion Thread is that most posts there are very specific answers to specific questions. From what I've read of the monstrous thread, I haven't seen many complete answers about why a card is good. (Not to say the posts are bad, just that the question asked is different than what I made this thread for)

That's because different questions are being asked. With a complete, concise question... you'll get a complete, concise answer.

I'd like to ask, then. A lot of people run Bribery. Now, I never liked Bribery in my cube because it is very random. Surely, I have cashed out and gone "Awesome! Angel of Despair!" from the other guys deck, but I have also gotten Desolation Angel (there goes mah lands), Sakura Tribe-Elder, etc. and these happenings make me feel that Bribery is a sideboard card more than a card that "goes in every deck" that can support it. After reading a bit of cube philosophy here and there, sideboard cards were cut from my cube, and now I'm staring at Bribery which is still in, and I ask you wiser men of the cube forums: Isn't Bribery really a sideboard card? And even when you have the right matchup, you might still end up investing 5 mana to get a 1-4 mana creature. How is this so great?

You pick the creature from their deck.

And the information you get knowing every card in their deck is invaluable.

Very few decks don't include at least 2-3 creatures of CMC4 or higher. Meaning, you're taking an out away from your opponent, getting a 4+CMC creature and learning every card in your opponents deck for 5 mana. It's totally bonkers.

Not to mention the number of ETB effects that are in the cube. Getting a Manic Vandal and killing their Jitte is pretty boss...

Even against aggro, they'll likely have 1 or 2 "curve-toppers" like Calciderm or Siege-Gang Commander to steal... which is plenty good.

Quote from wtwlf123

You pick the creature from their deck.

And the information you get knowing every card in their deck is invaluable.

Very few decks don't include at least 2-3 creatures of CMC4 or higher. Meaning, you're taking an out away from your opponent, getting a 4+CMC creature and learning every card in your opponents deck for 5 mana. It's totally bonkers.

Not to mention the number of ETB effects that are in the cube. Getting a Manic Vandal and killing their Jitte is pretty boss...

That's ridiculous, we've played it as a cascade sort of thing fora year now. 6 people unable to read a card. Thanks for that anyway

Quote from Doesnotapply

That's ridiculous, we've played it as a cascade sort of thing fora year now. 6 people unable to read a card. Thanks for that anyway

Ha. No problem. Ya, you search your opponents deck, pick any creature, and put it into play for yourself.

Quote from Doesnotapply

...Bribery..,

Bribery's power comes from three distinct features of the card, beyond the obvious effect of getting a creature into play 1-for-1 without paying its mana cost for 3UU.

1. It is a tutor. It isn't the best tutor in the world, but it does let you look through a pool of targets and decide on the best one for the current game state. A large percentage of cube creatures are 187s or powerful creatures that pass the 'Terminate test' or are resilient in other ways. That is to say that you can usually expect to find quality options in your opponent's deck because the creatures are so good.

2. It removes one of your opponent's best remaining cards from their deck. This doesn't mean much at all against aggro, but in long games decks with 2-3 large threats each tend to spend time trying to dig out their bombs. When you steal one of theirs, suddenly the odds turn sharply in your favor. Also by taking their best creature, the average quality of the rest of their deck goes down. This effect is even better if your opponent was planning on using tutor effects of their own to find the card you grab.

3. You get the opportunity to look through your opponent's deck. This is critical information that you rarely get access to. Knowing what you opponent has access to will influence both your decisions in the current game, as well as sideboarding decisions. I would like to emphasize this point again because many plays in cube magic are reads and semi-bluffs. Knowing more leads directly to winning.

That was more directed at Doesnotapply than you.

But we found the root of the problem anyways.

Thanks for long and very wide answers. Especially you, TakeABow!

Quote from Doesnotapply

Thanks for long and very wide answers. Especially you, TakeABow!

Glad I could help.

How about the card that my original conversation was about: Psychatog. Here's what I get: Psychatog is awesome with madness and flashback shenanigans. He's a three mana investment that needs to be blocked like its a 7/8. Here's my problem though: most times when people are talking about how good psychatog is, they say something to the effect of "he swings for a million damage!". My problem with this is that, assuming you play him turn three and you've played nothing but lands, on turn four, he can swing for a max of 11. (Discard seven, exile six). That's a nice swing on turn four, but the problem is you just Identity Crisised yourself. And he doesn't even stay that big! So the answer can't be that he swings for a million. So people who run him: why is he good? Does he have to be played in graveyard decks with Genesis, Squee, or Wild Mongrel? Or does he stand on his own? How do you usually play with him?

'Tog is mainly used here as a very robust creature who survives removal as long as he's still needed. He makes combat potentially hazardous for aggro thanks to his extra toughness point, and can outrace burn by ditching a couple of cards from the graveyard. You feed him by 'playing Magic'; i.e. getting cards into your graveyard or drawing extra ones. Neither should be difficult in U/B control or aggro.

Also, bear in mind that once an opponent is down to a suitably low life, they are forced to play around your potential alpha strike by holding back a creature, or two if you can bluff removal. It's like Greater Gargadon and its ability to om-nom all your permanents and swing for the killer 9. People often forget and may need to count up your hand and graveyard on a regular basis.

In summary, the main attraction of 'Tog for me is its capacity to survive combat and burn for an alternate resource cost (discarding/dredging) as a defensive creature. Once the storm is weathered, he can then go on the offense and do a lot of damage. He can be used exclusively in this role in aggro too, but is less potent as you may not be holding back or drawing so many cards. He can still cause headaches though.

He provides extra utility from the cards in your yard. Killing opponent's aggressive and mid-sized attackers at the cost of exiling already used cards. If drawn late in the game, he can threaten your opponent's life total, making him a creature that has to be calculated for, and can't be ignored. Additionally, the main appeal is his casting cost. So he works as a game-ending threat, for 3 mana. Making him easy to cast/protect with counterspell backup... unlike something that costs say, 5 or 6 mana.

Quote from porpoise »

assuming you play him turn three and you've played nothing but lands, on turn four, he can swing for a max of 11

This is the issue at hand. He doesn't play on T3 and swong for the win on T4. He plays late to the game like a finisher... where a good-sized hand and a full yard can easily put him in lethal swing range. Like, easily 10+ damage big. With a hand of 6 cards and 10 in the yard, he swings for 15.

No Blocks? Ok Float mana, Gush + Fact or Fiction 'yer dead!

Tog is one of the all time great cards that just destroys your opponents combat math. The number of times it blows someone out of a game is actually pretty small. What it often does is force your opponent to play cautiously out of the fear of the blowout. Usually this plays right into the UB control strategy of building card advantage and shutting down key threats. It doesn't dominate cube in the way it dominated T2 (or some extended). You don't first pick a Tog and build around it, really it is a flexible creature that is cheap, easy to defend, can put up a fight (or at least trade with something good) in the early game, and work as a game ending threat when you have control. Being a discard outlet is also quite nice in cube and turns on all kinds of synergies.