It's not; seriously, what blue deck is going to play him? A main-phase Scathe zombies that is only situationally good and is ridiculously easy to play around/ignore. No thanks.
Um. All morph creatures are a main phase scathe zombies. It's the morph ability that makes them good. And getting a better-than Deflection for 1U is totally worth it.
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seriously, what blue deck is going to play him?
Every blue deck?
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very easy to play around
Ya, by having your opponent not use a single spell or ability that targets while I have 1U open. And that alone is absolutely worth the 3.
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isn't worth a random removal spell in most cases
It's not a removal spell. It counters any spell or ability that targets, and gives you a copy of it instead.
Have to agree with this. Willbender is pretty hot-cold game-to-game, but it outright demolishes people that aren't ready for it and forces a rather absurd restriction on how a competent opponent plays. I could see myself cutting it if 8-10 more cubeable blue cards get printed, but for now at least, all mygreyogres are staying put.
Um. All morph creatures are a main phase scathe zombies. It's the morph ability that makes them good. And getting a better-than Deflection for 1U is totally worth it.
Every blue deck?
Yeah except his morph ability isn't good because it's easy to play around, oftentimes doesn't do anything, and once he's morphed up he's useless. Nice. Squire. At least with other morphs the risk/reward of morphing up is worth it (8 point life swing or wrath) and I can do it at a time that's convenient for me. He's also so terrible against aggro; I mean what does he do against them? Block for a turn? I also don't buy the whole "He's good against A-call Mind Twist" argument because if you run your deflectable spells out against an on-board morph with open 1U you're doing it wrong.
Yeah except his morph ability isn't good because it's easy to play around, oftentimes doesn't do anything, and once he's morphed up he's useless. Nice. Squire. At least with other morphs the risk/reward of morphing up is worth it (8 point life swing or wrath) and I can do it at a time that's convenient for me. He's also so terrible against aggro; I mean what does he do against them? Block for a turn? I also don't buy the whole "He's good against A-call Mind Twist" argument because if you run your deflectable spells out against an on-board morph with open 1U you're doing it wrong.
Easy to play around? In that your opponent simply won't play any spells or activate any abilities that target when you have 1U up? Sounds good to me.
Compared to other morphs in the cube, I'm guaranteed value from Willbender if he's morphed. I can flip Exalted Angel and have it killed by Terminate. That's not the case with Willbender. Each time he's flipped I'm guaranteed both protection and card advantage.
Terrible against aggro? In that it uses their lightning bolt to kill their own Soltari Monk and then trades with their Savannah Lions in combat to create a 3-for-1? Ya... pretty terrible.
And you said it. If your opponent plays their good spells when you've got a face-down creature and 1U up, they're doing it wrong. Meaning that the 3 investment has paid of 10-fold because my opponent can't play their best spells? Pretty sweet.
If by 'easy to play around' you mean 'make me wonder if it is worth casting this spell on myself', then yes. Imagine a u/w deck that has multiple morphs like exalted angel, willbender, and maybe a shapeshifter. Are you really going to just run that Vindicate out on that 'exalted angel' that is going to swing the game when you have your own valuable permanent out? That is what Killem was talking about earlier; experienced players have to consider the possibility and might misplay because of it, and new players might just walk right into it.
Is it just a 1/2 afterwards? Sure. But the effect gained from the unmophing surely adds the value you need. Last time I checked, control decks like blockers as well. If you are in a non-control deck, 1/2s hold Jittes/whammers/rancors as well as anyone...especially after they bolt their own dude.
I definitely fall into the Willbender is not good camp, he's situational very easy to play around. Misdirection was also not consistent enough for me.
How do you play around willbender? If he hits the table he's basically counter your spell for 1U. If you remove him, ok so you trade removal for 3. You still get a 2/2 creature which can trade with aggro if need be, it could redirect the following turn, it doesn't matter if your opponent knows it is will bender or not. it means they are holding off because you can redirect, each turn that goes by is one more turn you draw another threat, and another and another.
Well, let's say your holding a Lightning Bolt and you have a Savannah Lions and Soltari Monk in play and your opponent has a morph and 1U up. You don't cast Lightning Bolt. You wait till they tap out and then cast Lightning Bolt. Or they leave up 2 mana the whole game and you've double stone rained them which isn't a bad use of your Bolt.
Except you can't cast any of your spells or use any of your abilities that target... not just the one Bolt. The blue player puts down another blocker, and you can simply never cast any spells that target? That's a fantastic use of 3.
I wouldn't be playing will bender in any other kind of deck.
I would. It's a great card in tempo and mid-range too. Forcing your opponent to kill their own dudes or target themselves with their own effects, or disenchanting their own cards is hilarious, and really valuable.
Also, yes there is always going to be times where you might lose him. Sometimes I play him fast if I see a critter coming down, sometimes my opponent will trade with my morph sometimes they wont, sometimes they will kill him, sometimes I get him late game and he's a 5 mana redirect, but that's ok too. For me anyway.
How do you play around willbender? If he hits the table he's basically counter your spell for 1U. If you remove him, ok so you trade removal for 3. You still get a 2/2 creature which can trade with aggro if need be, it could redirect the following turn, it doesn't matter if your opponent knows it is will bender or not. it means they are holding off because you can redirect, each turn that goes by is one more turn you draw another threat, and another and another.
See, I try to be nice to Willbender, then something like this gets said.
How do you play around him? About a million different ways, including the most obvious one of playing better creatures or creatures that don't care about him. Or untargeted spells. Or spells with no other legal target. Or I ignore him because a bear is not going to be able to force me into playing anything. Meanwhile, you have to tap out your blue deck on turn three for a 2/2 that you can't activate till the next untap phase, and then I get to make you keep 1U open on the off chance I play something that can be and is worth redirecting. Even if all that works out, you have gotten a misdirection and a 1/2 for 4U. That's the BEST case scenario.
Sure. You can continue to curve out with all of your non-targeting spells. And I'll continue to respond with my cards as well. But the fact that I'm still preventing you from casting targeting spells or activating targeting abilities because I have a face-down creature on the board is fantastic. Simply having him there is going to influence the game. Unless you're playing a deck that has no spells that target, or has no abilities that target... which just doesn't happen.
And a Misdirection effect that I only need to leave 1U available to cast is pretty hot. The effect is beyond powerful.
Are you really going to just run that Vindicate out on that 'exalted angel' that is going to swing the game when you have your own valuable permanent out? That is what Killem was talking about earlier; experienced players have to consider the possibility and might misplay because of it, and new players might just walk right into it.
-AA
If they have a facedown creature + 4 mana then it aint Exalted Angel. And if they dont have the white mana... who cares. Willbender is one of the most obvious trap cards out there.
See, I try to be nice to Willbender, then something like this gets said.
How do you play around him? About a million different ways, including the most obvious one of playing better creatures or creatures that don't care about him. Or untargeted spells. Or spells with no other legal target. Or I ignore him because a bear is not going to be able to force me into playing anything. Meanwhile, you have to tap out your blue deck on turn three for a 2/2 that you can't activate till the next untap phase, and then I get to make you keep 1U open on the off chance I play something that can be and is worth redirecting. Even if all that works out, you have gotten a misdirection and a 1/2 for 4U. That's the BEST case scenario.
If they have a facedown creature + 4 mana then it aint Exalted Angel. And if they dont have the white mana... who cares. Willbender is one of the most obvious trap cards out there.
I'm talking about the turn it comes into play (or shortly afterwards), not having a morph out for 4 turns while having mana to flip it AND protect it...but perhaps Vindicate was a bad example. Change that to 'random burn spell that can kill a 2/2 but not a 4/5' or 'can't let them untap with it (Bane of the Living comes to mind)'. That line of play isn't exactly uncommon (killing something on your own main phase before they can flip it). Especially if you are a red deck, but in general you don't want your opponent unmorphing cards as it is usually bad for you.
To backtrack, sometimes you don't unmorph your Exalted Angel if you want to save mana to protect it as well...hitting 4 mana and just flipping it because you can is the dreaded 'see card play card' strategy that is less than optimal.
And I'll state it once again...if your opponent is experienced they should be hesitating on killing your morph if you have blue mana (which is worth a certain amount of tempo; some players will get The Fear and not play their spells effectively at all until you reveal it), or people who forget about it or don't expect it will walk right into it. Either way you are gaining an advantage, sometimes huge sometimes small.
Worst case scenario? They burn their own face (which saves you life points, something decks like) and you have a blocker left over. That situation, however, is rare. Don't forget too that morphs in general have a wonderful ability of imperfect information which can cause players to make bad decisions, giving you an advantage in the game.
And the argument of 'well I just won't cast anything targeted' is pretty lame. If there were a 3 mana 2/2 that said 'players and permanents cannot be targeted' it would be pretty bad-ass. As lame as the 'I'll just play more creatures' argument as well...your opponent also gets to keep playing spells and permanents too!
A pitch-cast- Misdirection is a 2-for-2, which is quite a bit different than a 3-for-1.
Fact. Splashable 3-for-1 (or more) card advantage is boss.
I know the card isn't for everybody, but it's been nothing but stellar for my playgroup, and it's far from getting the chop... even in a color as competitive as blue.
Yeah, but one costs 5 total mana while the other is free, and one of those "3" is a creature so mighty it gets owned by a bear.
I think we both know its strength isn't from combat. No one is trying to say that's its selling point, its a nice bonus to trade with most 1cc/2cc creatures.
I like Willbender quite a bit for all the reasons wtwlf gives. However, it's not uncuttable. I think it's good and I'm running it. Whether I'm still running it after 2 or 3 more sets are released remains to be seen.
I think we both know its strength isn't from combat. No one is trying to say that's its selling point, its a nice bonus to trade with most 1cc/2cc creatures.
I recognize that, I just want to make it clear that all three for ones are not the same (side question: Is Spectral Procession card advantage?).
I just don't like when these arguments boil down into hyperbole. I can see where Willbender can be awesome, and I can see where it can be terrible. Really we are just debating how often it is one or the other.
It's not; seriously, what blue deck is going to play him? A main-phase Scathe zombies that is only situationally good and is ridiculously easy to play around/ignore. No thanks.
Um. All morph creatures are a main phase scathe zombies. It's the morph ability that makes them good. And getting a better-than Deflection for 1U is totally worth it.
Every blue deck?
Ya, by having your opponent not use a single spell or ability that targets while I have 1U open. And that alone is absolutely worth the 3.
It's not a removal spell. It counters any spell or ability that targets, and gives you a copy of it instead.
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Have to agree with this. Willbender is pretty hot-cold game-to-game, but it outright demolishes people that aren't ready for it and forces a rather absurd restriction on how a competent opponent plays. I could see myself cutting it if 8-10 more cubeable blue cards get printed, but for now at least, all my grey ogres are staying put.
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Yeah except his morph ability isn't good because it's easy to play around, oftentimes doesn't do anything, and once he's morphed up he's useless. Nice. Squire. At least with other morphs the risk/reward of morphing up is worth it (8 point life swing or wrath) and I can do it at a time that's convenient for me. He's also so terrible against aggro; I mean what does he do against them? Block for a turn? I also don't buy the whole "He's good against A-call Mind Twist" argument because if you run your deflectable spells out against an on-board morph with open 1U you're doing it wrong.
Easy to play around? In that your opponent simply won't play any spells or activate any abilities that target when you have 1U up? Sounds good to me.
Compared to other morphs in the cube, I'm guaranteed value from Willbender if he's morphed. I can flip Exalted Angel and have it killed by Terminate. That's not the case with Willbender. Each time he's flipped I'm guaranteed both protection and card advantage.
Terrible against aggro? In that it uses their lightning bolt to kill their own Soltari Monk and then trades with their Savannah Lions in combat to create a 3-for-1? Ya... pretty terrible.
And you said it. If your opponent plays their good spells when you've got a face-down creature and 1U up, they're doing it wrong. Meaning that the 3 investment has paid of 10-fold because my opponent can't play their best spells? Pretty sweet.
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Is it just a 1/2 afterwards? Sure. But the effect gained from the unmophing surely adds the value you need. Last time I checked, control decks like blockers as well. If you are in a non-control deck, 1/2s hold Jittes/whammers/rancors as well as anyone...especially after they bolt their own dude.
-AA
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How do you play around willbender? If he hits the table he's basically counter your spell for 1U. If you remove him, ok so you trade removal for 3. You still get a 2/2 creature which can trade with aggro if need be, it could redirect the following turn, it doesn't matter if your opponent knows it is will bender or not. it means they are holding off because you can redirect, each turn that goes by is one more turn you draw another threat, and another and another.
I wouldn't be playing will bender in any other kind of deck.
I would. It's a great card in tempo and mid-range too. Forcing your opponent to kill their own dudes or target themselves with their own effects, or disenchanting their own cards is hilarious, and really valuable.
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See, I try to be nice to Willbender, then something like this gets said.
How do you play around him? About a million different ways, including the most obvious one of playing better creatures or creatures that don't care about him. Or untargeted spells. Or spells with no other legal target. Or I ignore him because a bear is not going to be able to force me into playing anything. Meanwhile, you have to tap out your blue deck on turn three for a 2/2 that you can't activate till the next untap phase, and then I get to make you keep 1U open on the off chance I play something that can be and is worth redirecting. Even if all that works out, you have gotten a misdirection and a 1/2 for 4U. That's the BEST case scenario.
I just don't see it.
And a Misdirection effect that I only need to leave 1U available to cast is pretty hot. The effect is beyond powerful.
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I played a Misdirection effect where I had to leave 0 mana open and it wasn't an on board trick my opponent can see and that still wasn't good enough.
If they have a facedown creature + 4 mana then it aint Exalted Angel. And if they dont have the white mana... who cares. Willbender is one of the most obvious trap cards out there.
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A pitch-cast- Misdirection is a 2-for-2, which is quite a bit different than a 3-for-1.
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Yeah, but one costs 5 total mana while the other is free, and one of those "3" is a creature so mighty it gets owned by a bear.
This is also how it plays out in my playgroup.
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I'm talking about the turn it comes into play (or shortly afterwards), not having a morph out for 4 turns while having mana to flip it AND protect it...but perhaps Vindicate was a bad example. Change that to 'random burn spell that can kill a 2/2 but not a 4/5' or 'can't let them untap with it (Bane of the Living comes to mind)'. That line of play isn't exactly uncommon (killing something on your own main phase before they can flip it). Especially if you are a red deck, but in general you don't want your opponent unmorphing cards as it is usually bad for you.
To backtrack, sometimes you don't unmorph your Exalted Angel if you want to save mana to protect it as well...hitting 4 mana and just flipping it because you can is the dreaded 'see card play card' strategy that is less than optimal.
And I'll state it once again...if your opponent is experienced they should be hesitating on killing your morph if you have blue mana (which is worth a certain amount of tempo; some players will get The Fear and not play their spells effectively at all until you reveal it), or people who forget about it or don't expect it will walk right into it. Either way you are gaining an advantage, sometimes huge sometimes small.
Worst case scenario? They burn their own face (which saves you life points, something decks like) and you have a blocker left over. That situation, however, is rare. Don't forget too that morphs in general have a wonderful ability of imperfect information which can cause players to make bad decisions, giving you an advantage in the game.
And the argument of 'well I just won't cast anything targeted' is pretty lame. If there were a 3 mana 2/2 that said 'players and permanents cannot be targeted' it would be pretty bad-ass. As lame as the 'I'll just play more creatures' argument as well...your opponent also gets to keep playing spells and permanents too!
-AA
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Fact. Splashable 3-for-1 (or more) card advantage is boss.
I know the card isn't for everybody, but it's been nothing but stellar for my playgroup, and it's far from getting the chop... even in a color as competitive as blue.
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I think we both know its strength isn't from combat. No one is trying to say that's its selling point, its a nice bonus to trade with most 1cc/2cc creatures.
Cheers,
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I recognize that, I just want to make it clear that all three for ones are not the same (side question: Is Spectral Procession card advantage?).
I just don't like when these arguments boil down into hyperbole. I can see where Willbender can be awesome, and I can see where it can be terrible. Really we are just debating how often it is one or the other.