I do think some people think adding fast mana and/or power turns the format into Vintage. I recommend those people spend some time with a powered cube.
I've played with a powered cube about all of one time and it was interactive to be sure. Vintage isn't all about t1/2 kills either though. Sometimes you both disrupt each other a ton and beat each other to death with Bobs. Or mana drain your own force of will to hardcast a blightsteel...
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I'm with IA4L on this topic. My counterspells cost 2 mana and don't generate 4-6 mana after they resolve. Most of my mana accelerators don't cost less than they produce, and drawing three cards in my cube sure as hell costs more than U.
I love playing broken Magic, and like IA4L, I have a cube that pulls out turn 2 and 3 kills quite often. When it comes to hosting 8-10 man drafts, our group isn't interested in 'swingy', broken cards no matter how much it's offset by the power of other cards or hosers. They want to play a balanced, limited format that puts an emphasis on drafting. For me it's less about the power of the cards, and more the DRAFT ME nature of the crème de la crème. How hard is it to pick Mana Drain or Sol Ring over even the best deckbuilders? For me, it's not even a question. I've taken pretty great lengths to remove these sorts of picks from my cube regardless of how balanced they they appear to be.
This doesn't mean I don't have windmill slams; that's no fun. It also doesn't mean that my drafts don't have broken things happening; that's also no fun. I agree the difference between a powered list and an unpowered list isn't as big as people make it out to be, but they are different formats, and me and my group prefer to draft a certain way.
i don't really understand why this argument comes up so often. either you like broken cards or you don't. they are broken and sometimes they end games on their own. sometimes they don't, and sometimes broken cards on both sides of the table even things out. in a mid-sized cube the blow outs are few and far between in my experience, but that's just my opinion. i'll argue with people who say things i think are inaccurate about powered cubes ("every game is turn 1 sol ring and black lotus! all games end on turn 2!") but there's really no argument for or against powered cubes outside of "do blowouts, regardless of their frequency, ruin cubing for you?" if the answer is yes, cut the broken cards. that's about it as far as i can see.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
The only cards I don't run for being too strong are Mind Twist and Armageddon. For me, the problem is that it is almost impossible to interact with those cards unless you're playing counterspells and have them available at the right time.
I've played with a powered cube about all of one time and it was interactive to be sure. Vintage isn't all about t1/2 kills either though. Sometimes you both disrupt each other a ton and beat each other to death with Bobs. Or mana drain your own force of will to hardcast a blightsteel...
I never said it was all about t1/2 kills, just that a powered cube was nothing like it (and your examples prove it).
@ Sylar: I find it much more difficult to interact with Library of Alexandria than Mind Twist or Armageddon.
i don't really understand why this argument comes up so often. either you like broken cards or you don't. they are broken and sometimes they end games on their own. sometimes they don't, and sometimes broken cards on both sides of the table even things out. in a mid-sized cube the blow outs are few and far between in my experience, but that's just my opinion. i'll argue with people who say things i think are inaccurate about powered cubes ("every game is turn 1 sol ring and black lotus! all games end on turn 2!") but there's really no argument for or against powered cubes outside of "do blowouts, regardless of their frequency, ruin cubing for you?" if the answer is yes, cut the broken cards. that's about it as far as i can see.
Playing with broken cards and drafting with broken cards are a totally different scenario. I am well aware every game doesn't involve turn 1 Mind Twists for 7 or turn 2 Kokushos. My issue is that opening a pack with Black Lotus or Library makes your picks so obvious, that it doesn't feel like drafting until after the first 3-4 picks (more eloquently put on my post on the last page).
I have never had issues playing with my powered 360 cube. Games routinely last for a long time, with a few exceptions. My personal take is that there is enough broken stuff in the cube that all players will get a piece it. However you don't always need the broken stuff to win. Recent example is, during a Winston, my friend had a UGb deck that included 3 swords (no Light and Shadow), Mind Twist, Tezzeret the Seeker to tutor them up and some good support stuff. I don't know if he made the right call playing all the swords but I beat him 2-0 with a RW aggro deck (I love Goblin Guide!!).
I love having power in my cube and cannot imagine switching.
Playing with broken cards and drafting with broken cards are a totally different scenario. I am well aware every game doesn't involve turn 1 Mind Twists for 7 or turn 2 Kokushos. My issue is that opening a pack with Black Lotus or Library makes your picks so obvious, that it doesn't feel like drafting until after the first 3-4 picks (more eloquently put on my post on the last page).
Is there a format where this is not true? The same could be said for any limited set. Getting rid of the top 10 cards in cube won't stop this from being true, it will simply change the name of those "obvious" picks.
Playing with broken cards and drafting with broken cards are a totally different scenario. I am well aware every game doesn't involve turn 1 Mind Twists for 7 or turn 2 Kokushos. My issue is that opening a pack with Black Lotus or Library makes your picks so obvious, that it doesn't feel like drafting until after the first 3-4 picks (more eloquently put on my post on the last page).
I find the disparity between the super-broken cards in the cube and all the other amazing cards in the cube is less extreme than it is in regular drafting... by an enormous margin. Opening up a Sol Ring in a cube pack is nowhere near as draft-breaking as cracking a Hoard-Smelter dragon in Scars limited. Plus, everybody is cracking disgusting cards in the cube. Everybody. Unlike someone cracking an Inferno Titan in M11 Limited, where that 1 card may win them the entire draft. If a single card is doing to your cube draft what a Hoard-Smelter does for Scars draft, I think there's a problem with the cube... not the card in question.
We played with a "dulled down" version of my cube for a few drafts, removing the power and the other major violators of the "extreme brokenness" and all it did was make the next in line broken cards move up in value. Removing Sol Ring, Library and Jitte made SoFI the windmill slam pick. Removing SoFI made Sword of Light and Shadow the windmill slam pick. Removing Balance and Armageddon made Baneslayer the windmill slam pick, and so on and so fourth, until you've neutered the cube to the point where it's not even fun to draft anymore. Something will ALWAYS be the most broken card in the cube, but removing them creates far more problems with cube balance than playing them does. At least, in my experience.
Is there a format where this is not true? The same could be said for any limited set. Getting rid of the top 10 cards in cube won't stop this from being true, it will simply change the name of those "obvious" picks.
There's a huge difference between my first picks which are largely heavy into a color or archetype (which I actively promote and support), and something like Black Lotus, Sol Ring, Library, etc.
Not saying you guys are doing anything wrong, I just think ho-hum picks make for a fairly boring draft.
Playing with broken cards and drafting with broken cards are a totally different scenario. I am well aware every game doesn't involve turn 1 Mind Twists for 7 or turn 2 Kokushos. My issue is that opening a pack with Black Lotus or Library makes your picks so obvious, that it doesn't feel like drafting until after the first 3-4 picks (more eloquently put on my post on the last page).
But doesn't this apply to Jitte, the Swords, Recurring Nightmare, Survival, etc.? They're certainly not as powerful as Library or Moxen, but they're usually obvious the cards in a pack that no one wants to let get past them. I guess the fewer broken cards that are included, the less of a chance there is during the draft to get the kind of pick you mention, but our drafts don't seem to suffer from this much at all. And we draft 5 packs of 9 cards quite a bit.
There's a huge difference between my first picks which are largely heavy into a color or archetype (which I actively promote and support), and something like Black Lotus, Sol Ring, Library, etc.
Not saying you guys are doing anything wrong, I just think ho-hum picks make for a fairly boring draft.
Do you play Jitte?
That's 10x as easy and "brainless" as picking a Mox in the first pack. And it's 10x as powerful as a Mox.
There's a huge difference between my first picks which are largely heavy into a color or archetype (which I actively promote and support), and something like Black Lotus, Sol Ring, Library, etc.
Not saying you guys are doing anything wrong, I just think ho-hum picks make for a fairly boring draft.
With all due respect, you have simply bumped those ho-hum picks down to Survival, Rec Nightmare, Jitte, Top etc. Unless your top ~ 100 cards are of near equal P1P1 power, ho hum first picks are going to happen.
I also think you are vastly overrating the amount of ho hum picks. More often than getting a Sol Ring, Library or Ancestral, you crack a Mox, a Survival, an Armageddon and a Meloku. Having to choose between insanely powerful cards is fun.
The only cards I don't run for being too strong are Mind Twist and Armageddon. For me, the problem is that it is almost impossible to interact with those cards unless you're playing counterspells and have them available at the right time.
mind twist is noninteractive. doesn't bother me, but there's no doubt it is. get mana, play mind twist, opponent sad time.
but you interact with geddon with every play. maintain a board presence, or prevent your opponent from doing the same. geddon sucks if i force spiked your turn one jackal pup and/or doom bladed your turn two wild mongrel. or if i responded with turn one and two dudes/permanents of my own. if geddon is noninteractive in every game, then your decks aren't being interactive enough for the first three turns.
Playing with broken cards and drafting with broken cards are a totally different scenario. I am well aware every game doesn't involve turn 1 Mind Twists for 7 or turn 2 Kokushos. My issue is that opening a pack with Black Lotus or Library makes your picks so obvious, that it doesn't feel like drafting until after the first 3-4 picks (more eloquently put on my post on the last page).
this is another aspect of it. i understand your goal of maximizing the drafting skill required in your cube, and while it's not something i care about i think it's a valid reason to exclude easy-pick cards. in order to completely avoid that issue you'd probably have to cut most colorless cards (jitte and sofi are pretty "dumb picks" in most packs). but i understand that you draw the line at a different place than i do, while still having "bombs" and so on.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I also think you are vastly overrating the amount of ho hum picks. More often than getting a Sol Ring, Library or Ancestral, you crack a Mox, a Survival, an Armageddon and a Meloku. Having to choose between insanely powerful cards is fun.
I think these are the best reactons we get when we draft.
the pain staking agony of having to pass over a mox or something high calibur like balance to me is just plain awesome to me.
mind twist is noninteractive. doesn't bother me, but there's no doubt it is. get mana, play mind twist, opponent sad time.
Maybe interactive is not the right word, but I find Mind Twist to be a very skill intensive card to play with and against. Much like Armageddon, there are times when it is obvious and just ends the game, but its presence makes every decision to cast or hold, strike or block, counter or not, mull or keep, of the utmost importance. I freaking love that.
I think these are the best reactons we get when we draft.
the pain staking agony of having to pass over a mox or something high calibur like balance to me is just plain awesome to me.
Indeed. I also love when you pass a pack with some crazy bomb in it (like Lotus) and you can just feel the person next to you eyes on you, and you know they are thinking "What the hell did he take???".
I find the disparity between the super-broken cards in the cube and all the other amazing cards in the cube is less extreme than it is in regular drafting... by an enormous margin. Opening up a Sol Ring in a cube pack is nowhere near as draft-breaking as cracking a Hoard-Smelter dragon in Scars limited. Plus, everybody is cracking disgusting cards in the cube. Everybody. Unlike someone cracking an Inferno Titan in M11 Limited, where that 1 card may win them the entire draft. If a single card is doing to your cube draft what a Hoard-Smelter does for Scars draft, I think there's a problem with the cube... not the card in question.
We played with a "dulled down" version of my cube for a few drafts, removing the power and the other major violators of the "extreme brokenness" and all it did was make the next in line broken cards move up in value. Removing Sol Ring, Library and Jitte made SoFI the windmill slam pick. Removing SoFI made Sword of Light and Shadow the windmill slam pick. Removing Balance and Armageddon made Baneslayer the windmill slam pick, and so on and so fourth, until you've neutered the cube to the point where it's not even fun to draft anymore. Something will ALWAYS be the most broken card in the cube, but removing them creates far more problems with cube balance than playing them does. At least, in my experience.
Exactly the only way cube could be nearly as balanced as regular limited is to start introducing multiples of cards. And that's just not fun lol. ( i tried it)
Indeed. I also love when you pass a pack with some crazy bomb in it (like Lotus) and you can just feel the person next to you eyes on you, and you know they are thinking "What the hell did he take???".
I know! I like that aspect of the powered drafts. The violators of the "super brokenness" meter are NOT cards like the original Moxen.
Quote from killem2 »
Exactly the only way cube could be nearly as balanced as regular limited is to start introducing multiples of cards. And that's just not fun lol. ( i tried it)
You... may have missed my point. My point was that our fully powered drafts without banning cards have resulted in draft experiences that are less bomb-contingent and more balanced than regular limited. It was only when we decided to try unpowering the list and banning some cards for power-level that the cube became imbalanced, and bomb reliant (like regular drafts can be).
for you, but not for him. which is why arguing about this is kind of pointless (sorry, i guess i'm going to be that guy).
I disagree. Looking at his cube, it appears he feels the same way (he certainly has some crazy powerful cards) he just seems to draw an arbitrary line. I'm just curious as to why people draw a line, and why they draw it where they do. In fact, let's try this:
@ kojiro:
Assuming price is not a problem, can you explain to me why your cube would be less fun or skill intensive if you added Mana Drain?
Assuming price is not a problem, can you explain to me why your cube would be less fun or skill intensive if you added the five Moxen?
This doesn't mean I don't have windmill slams; that's no fun. It also doesn't mean that my drafts don't have broken things happening; that's also no fun. I agree the difference between a powered list and an unpowered list isn't as big as people make it out to be, but they are different formats, and me and my group prefer to draft a certain way.
So you don't like windmill slams like Sol Ring or Library, but you're perfectly fine with windmill slams like Jitte and Recurring Nightmare? That doesn't make much sense to me. One brainless windmill slam pick is no different than the other.
Also, I don't think powered and unpowered cubes are so different that they should be referred to as different formats. There's less of a difference there than there is between Vintage and Legacy. It's basically the same exact format with a few more broken plays. It's not like the decks and archetypes change completely based on adding 10-12 cards into the cube.
I think you guys are thinking too much in the context of P1P1. We're also talking much different drafting environments.
Thanks for your perspective, qq. You pretty much nailed it.
Also, I want to make it clear that I have a ton of respect for you and qq, so I am generally interested in your perspective or counterpoints. I'm not attempting to "win" or even convince you that I'm correct.
I've played with a powered cube about all of one time and it was interactive to be sure. Vintage isn't all about t1/2 kills either though. Sometimes you both disrupt each other a ton and beat each other to death with Bobs. Or mana drain your own force of will to hardcast a blightsteel...
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I love playing broken Magic, and like IA4L, I have a cube that pulls out turn 2 and 3 kills quite often. When it comes to hosting 8-10 man drafts, our group isn't interested in 'swingy', broken cards no matter how much it's offset by the power of other cards or hosers. They want to play a balanced, limited format that puts an emphasis on drafting. For me it's less about the power of the cards, and more the DRAFT ME nature of the crème de la crème. How hard is it to pick Mana Drain or Sol Ring over even the best deckbuilders? For me, it's not even a question. I've taken pretty great lengths to remove these sorts of picks from my cube regardless of how balanced they they appear to be.
This doesn't mean I don't have windmill slams; that's no fun. It also doesn't mean that my drafts don't have broken things happening; that's also no fun. I agree the difference between a powered list and an unpowered list isn't as big as people make it out to be, but they are different formats, and me and my group prefer to draft a certain way.
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I never said it was all about t1/2 kills, just that a powered cube was nothing like it (and your examples prove it).
@ Sylar: I find it much more difficult to interact with Library of Alexandria than Mind Twist or Armageddon.
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Is there a format where this is not true? The same could be said for any limited set. Getting rid of the top 10 cards in cube won't stop this from being true, it will simply change the name of those "obvious" picks.
I find the disparity between the super-broken cards in the cube and all the other amazing cards in the cube is less extreme than it is in regular drafting... by an enormous margin. Opening up a Sol Ring in a cube pack is nowhere near as draft-breaking as cracking a Hoard-Smelter dragon in Scars limited. Plus, everybody is cracking disgusting cards in the cube. Everybody. Unlike someone cracking an Inferno Titan in M11 Limited, where that 1 card may win them the entire draft. If a single card is doing to your cube draft what a Hoard-Smelter does for Scars draft, I think there's a problem with the cube... not the card in question.
We played with a "dulled down" version of my cube for a few drafts, removing the power and the other major violators of the "extreme brokenness" and all it did was make the next in line broken cards move up in value. Removing Sol Ring, Library and Jitte made SoFI the windmill slam pick. Removing SoFI made Sword of Light and Shadow the windmill slam pick. Removing Balance and Armageddon made Baneslayer the windmill slam pick, and so on and so fourth, until you've neutered the cube to the point where it's not even fun to draft anymore. Something will ALWAYS be the most broken card in the cube, but removing them creates far more problems with cube balance than playing them does. At least, in my experience.
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Not saying you guys are doing anything wrong, I just think ho-hum picks make for a fairly boring draft.
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But doesn't this apply to Jitte, the Swords, Recurring Nightmare, Survival, etc.? They're certainly not as powerful as Library or Moxen, but they're usually obvious the cards in a pack that no one wants to let get past them. I guess the fewer broken cards that are included, the less of a chance there is during the draft to get the kind of pick you mention, but our drafts don't seem to suffer from this much at all. And we draft 5 packs of 9 cards quite a bit.
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Do you play Jitte?
That's 10x as easy and "brainless" as picking a Mox in the first pack. And it's 10x as powerful as a Mox.
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With all due respect, you have simply bumped those ho-hum picks down to Survival, Rec Nightmare, Jitte, Top etc. Unless your top ~ 100 cards are of near equal P1P1 power, ho hum first picks are going to happen.
I also think you are vastly overrating the amount of ho hum picks. More often than getting a Sol Ring, Library or Ancestral, you crack a Mox, a Survival, an Armageddon and a Meloku. Having to choose between insanely powerful cards is fun.
mind twist is noninteractive. doesn't bother me, but there's no doubt it is. get mana, play mind twist, opponent sad time.
but you interact with geddon with every play. maintain a board presence, or prevent your opponent from doing the same. geddon sucks if i force spiked your turn one jackal pup and/or doom bladed your turn two wild mongrel. or if i responded with turn one and two dudes/permanents of my own. if geddon is noninteractive in every game, then your decks aren't being interactive enough for the first three turns.
this is another aspect of it. i understand your goal of maximizing the drafting skill required in your cube, and while it's not something i care about i think it's a valid reason to exclude easy-pick cards. in order to completely avoid that issue you'd probably have to cut most colorless cards (jitte and sofi are pretty "dumb picks" in most packs). but i understand that you draw the line at a different place than i do, while still having "bombs" and so on.
for you, but not for him. which is why arguing about this is kind of pointless (sorry, i guess i'm going to be that guy).
I think these are the best reactons we get when we draft.
the pain staking agony of having to pass over a mox or something high calibur like balance to me is just plain awesome to me.
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Maybe interactive is not the right word, but I find Mind Twist to be a very skill intensive card to play with and against. Much like Armageddon, there are times when it is obvious and just ends the game, but its presence makes every decision to cast or hold, strike or block, counter or not, mull or keep, of the utmost importance. I freaking love that.
Thanks for your perspective, qq. You pretty much nailed it.
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Indeed. I also love when you pass a pack with some crazy bomb in it (like Lotus) and you can just feel the person next to you eyes on you, and you know they are thinking "What the hell did he take???".
Exactly the only way cube could be nearly as balanced as regular limited is to start introducing multiples of cards. And that's just not fun lol. ( i tried it)
I know! I like that aspect of the powered drafts. The violators of the "super brokenness" meter are NOT cards like the original Moxen.
You... may have missed my point. My point was that our fully powered drafts without banning cards have resulted in draft experiences that are less bomb-contingent and more balanced than regular limited. It was only when we decided to try unpowering the list and banning some cards for power-level that the cube became imbalanced, and bomb reliant (like regular drafts can be).
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I disagree. Looking at his cube, it appears he feels the same way (he certainly has some crazy powerful cards) he just seems to draw an arbitrary line. I'm just curious as to why people draw a line, and why they draw it where they do. In fact, let's try this:
@ kojiro:
So you don't like windmill slams like Sol Ring or Library, but you're perfectly fine with windmill slams like Jitte and Recurring Nightmare? That doesn't make much sense to me. One brainless windmill slam pick is no different than the other.
Also, I don't think powered and unpowered cubes are so different that they should be referred to as different formats. There's less of a difference there than there is between Vintage and Legacy. It's basically the same exact format with a few more broken plays. It's not like the decks and archetypes change completely based on adding 10-12 cards into the cube.
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Also, I want to make it clear that I have a ton of respect for you and qq, so I am generally interested in your perspective or counterpoints. I'm not attempting to "win" or even convince you that I'm correct.