NOTE: The current timestamp of this project is Dark Ascension. There are no post-DKA cards at this time.
Also Note: the data posted below that shows how many cubes play a particular card is only as current as 2/18. I will try and keep it updated after we finish the project, but this is the data we're using for now.
Also also Note: The data can be significantly thrown off my individual cube design decisions; for example, approx. 25% of cubes don't play double-faced cards for one reason or another.
THE PREMISE: Over the course of this project, we will systematically discuss the cards for Cube. When I say Cube here, I mean the standard "Most Powerful Cards" cube that most of us use. We're not looking to "rank" or "tier" the cards, as that would be impossible. What we are looking to do is talk, discuss, and present our case while keeping an open mind to the opinions of others. Whatever you gain from this discussion is completely up to you, and the overall goal of this project is to improve our cubes as well as give some insight as to why some cards are played over others.
THE SPECIFICS:
- We're going to be discussing cards divided into colors, then creature/non-creature, then converted mana cost (CMC). We will begin with White 1CMC Creatures, and conclude with lands.
- We're placing cards in the sections where they are most useful or most often used (Kird Ape is RG, Academy Ruins is U, Gathan Raiders is a colorless creature with CMC = 3, etc)
- Every 3 or so days, we will move onto the next group, barring my time constraints on maintaining the OP as well as however much discussion we get.
- Before we begin discussion on a particular group, I will collect all the cards from Eidolon's data as of 2/18, and we'll use that as a base for discussion.
- At the end of each group's discussion, I'll create "Closing Notes" which will summarize what was talked about with respect to the cards in the group. This is to let newcomers (and those who reference the project after completion) in on the discussion without having to slog through pages of text.
- There are no sign-ups, no requirements, etc. You are not obliged to sit through every single discussion until we are done. You can come and leave as you wish, although we would rather have as much discussion as possible, and I hope as many of you as possible will discuss as many groups of cards as possible.
- This Project and set of Guidelines are heavily based on Lanxal's Pauper Cube Evaluation Thread found here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5909526
It goes through every card that is played in Pauper Cubes here on the forums, and discusses every single one systematically, until the end product, shown in the thread, is a list of how many people play each card (something we have) AND why they might play that card, and discussions and comments as to how each card ranks up against each other (something we don't have - well, we may have individual discussions deep in the bowels of the "Card Evaluation Thread", but nothing as systematic or easily accessible as what I'm proposing.)
This would also be able to incorporate the recent compilation of "Dead Horse Cards", as those discussions would take place in this thread when their section comes up.
Also, we can separate and rank cards based on what cube size they should be included in (360, 450, etc), to give those trying to build/maintain cubes an easily accessible pool of information as to why people run the cards they run.
I would run the OP, I have no problems doing this, updating it, organizing it, etc. I just need to know that you all are on board to discuss every single card you run in your cube and tell me why.
Notes: Mother of Runes - Has a multitude of uses; forcing attackers through, protecting your creatures from removal, preventing your creatures from being killed in combat (while attacking or blocking), etc. The list goes on. Can drastically influence the outcome of a game without ever attacking. Fits into all archetypes.
Student of Warfare - Excellent early AND late creature, which fits into most any white deck. Efficient leveling costs allow for you to choose how to invest in this guy, providing a lot of flexibility from a creature which beats down out of the gate and still can make swing games on turn 15. Doom Blade is an obvious drawback, but the choices this guy gives you throughout the game makes it worth the drawback.
Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Being legendary is almost a non-existant drawback in the typical cube's highlander environment. Being a 2-power, 1 mana creature makes it a great creature for aggro decks. Has an edge over Savannah Lions and Elite Vanguard because it can't get killed by 1 point of splittable red damage or pingers.
Elite Vanguard, Savannah Lions - Slightly worse than Isamaru, but they are still 2-power, 1 mana creatures that are great in aggro strategies.
Steppe Lynx - Slightly unpredictable, but attacking as a 2/3 or a 4/5 (with fetches, etc) is very efficient for 1 mana. Blocking as a 0/1 is sub-par, and mid to late game his usefulness depends on your draw (how many lands you draw/have in hand).
Weathered Wayfarer - Finding basics is a good defense against mana screw, but this guy really shines because he can fetch any land (Utility lands, Dual Lands, etc). Works particularly well with bouncelands, fetches, Wasteland/Strip Mine (Use him after sacrificing the land, before the ability resolves).
Perimeter Captain - Very powerful creature for control decks. Easily makes the grade on power-level alone, but most consider it too narrow for their cube, or just feel uneasy dedicating an early slot to a control card.
Akrasan Squire - Phantizle believes that this guy is the most underrated aggressive one-drop; his power is in his versatility. He can attack alone as an Isamaru, can pump another dude like a pseudo-equipment and just chumps later on in the game. Doesn't make 450 lists, probably good enough for 540.
Notes: Porcelain Legionnaire - 3/1 First Strike for 2 and 2 life goes in just about every aggressive deck, but here, he's put in white because having the ability to pay 2W for him makes him slightly better in white decks. Some like classifying him as a colorless card, try whatever works for your cube. Where he performs best will vary from cube to cube, and thus he should be classified differently from cube to cube.
Wall of Omens - Precisely what W/X Control decks want to be casting on turn 2 if not a signet or something... also works well with blink effects (Kor Skyfisher, Venser, the Sojourner, etc)
Stoneforge Mystic - A great "build around me" card, insane with >1 equipment, since you search whichever one is best for the situation, and can cheat it into play (sometimes for less than it costs, aka Batterskull). Still quite good with just 1 equipment since cube equipment is very powerful, but there is a chance you draw him after the equipment, in which case he is a Squire.
Accorder Paladin - Blade of the Sixth Pride was borderline playable at the time of its printing, but Battle Cry pushes this guy's damage potential far into the realm of cubeability. The fact that it lacks first strike or something similar could be seen as a drawback, but his damage potential makes him one of the most aggressive 2-drops in cube.
Kor Skyfisher - 2/3 Flyer for 1W is super efficient, and his "drawback" isn't really a drawback in cube, because of all of the ETB effects, Planeswalkers, etc. Listed below are just a few of the many uses of this card:
- Bounce a land after you missed a land drop (Skyfisher then effectively costs 1)
- Use Planeswalker Abilities twice in a turn (Bounce the Planeswalker, replay, use ability)
- Really good with Parallax Wave (or anything else that has counters)
- Repeatedly bouncing Kor Skyfisher with either Crystal Shard or Erratic Portal allows you to repeatedly bounce any permanent (something with an ETB effect) as many times as you have mana for.
- Really good with Moxen/other acceleration
- You can re-use an Oblivion Ring/Journey to Nowhere to target something bigger/more threatening that has come into play since you removed the original (i.e. T3 Oblivion Ring, T4 they play something bigger, T5 Kor Skyfisher returning O-Ring, Replay O-Ring targeting the new threat)
- Allows you to reuse ETB effects (such as Karmic Guide, Mulldrifter, etc)
Soltari Priest/Soltari Monk - 2/1 Shadow for WW is super aggressive and efficient damage. Which one is better is a spot of contention for many; Priest protects from a greater number of cards, but it has been argued that black control decks want to remove the Monk more than red aggressive decks care about removing the Priest.
Knight of Meadowgrain - Both First Strike and Lifelink make him really good in aggro matchups - he is tough to get around in combat. Against mid-range/control strategies, he puts a lot of early pressure on, and a 4-point life swing is quite helpful early on against mid-range, less so against control.
Cloistered Youth - 3/3 for 1W is fine, even if he deals 1 to you every turn. The incremental damage makes this guy very weak on defense, since if you get in a position where you aren't attacking with him, the damage he deals to you may equal or exceed the damage he hits your opponent for. Because of this, you generally want to always attack with this guy if he's flipped.
Soltari Trooper - Another "unblockable" 2-power attacker. The fact that he is a 1/1 on your oppt's turn is rarely relevant, since you're not planning on blocking with him anyways, and most things that would kill a 2/2 kill a 1/1 as well.
Lone Missionary - 1W for 4 life and a 2/1 is welcome in many decks - against aggro, the life is relevant on a 2-power body that may trade with an attacker.
Stormfront Pegasus/Mistral Charger - A splashable, 2/1 Flyer for is great for aggressive strategies and mid-range decks that want to get damage through efficiently with or without equipment. They are, however, vulnerable to flying token blockers and split damage spells (Forked Bolt)
Silver Knight - This guy is very defensive, better against an aggro deck then in an aggro deck, as aggro decks have more efficient damage options. Against an aggro deck (especially red), this guy is tough to get past in combat.
Knight of the White Orchid - Can ramp you to 4 mana on T3 on the play, but after that its just a 2/2 first strike. Most consider the ramp potential too inconsistent for cube play, since a WW 2/2 First Strike is not good enough compared to other 2-drops that aggressive decks could run.
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails - Quite powerful in the right environment - 2W to counter a spell or ability that targets a permanent you control, and makes combat a nightmare for your oppt. This guy draws a lot of hate, however, but his unique effect brings another element to control/mid-range decks that is difficult to get anywhere else.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - 1W for a 2/1 First Strike may seem underwhelming, but the ability is very relevant when mid-range and control are set a turn behind while you play dude after dude - this is an aggro creature that creates a ton of tempo, and is even splashable.
Leonin Relic-Warder - A "Journey to Disenchant" on a 2/2 body for WW. Also works well with Crystal Shard or Erratic Portal (Stacking the abilities correctly, you can just exile an Artifact or Enchantment). White doesn't have many creature-answers to enchantments or artifacts, a fact that only adds to the tempo this creature can create.
Serra Avenger - Some think that this card is very underrated -Its quite good for control-midrange strategies. Playing him on T4 for WW while leaving counter/removal mana open can be quite powerful. Also makes Aether Vial better.
Loyal Cathar - A pair of 2-power creatures for WW, this guy is best against aggro decks - you get a Jungle Lion for free immediately after trading in combat or after he eats a removal spell/Wrath effect, although he isn't much better than the other 2-drops against mid-range or control.
Mirran Crusader - Possibly the best stats-to-cost ratio of any 3 drop in white; it has protection from both a removal color (Black), and fatties in both colors that Crusader can swing into without fear. Furthermore he swings for 4 with no help, and gets silly with equipment, pump or haste effects.
Blade Splicer - 4 power for 3 mana, and 3 of it has first strike. Ignoring the 1/1 Splicer itself, a 3/3 first strike is a reasonable deal for three mana. With bounce or blink effects, making multiple Golems is a possibility. Anthem effects put extra power on the board by pumping the Splicer, and she can swing with equipment to become a relevant attacker. Lastly, the capacity to swing for 4 on an empty board should not be overlooked.
Mirror Entity - Despite its fragility, Mirror Entity can frequently win the game the turn after playing it by pumping the entire team for large X values. It's at its best in token builds which tend towards midrange, but also performs well in aggro. Comes with a big target on its head. (There are some niche changeling interactions with cards like Gravecrawler and Graveborn Muse.)
Soltari Champion - A splashable, unblockable 2/2 for 3 is not really a bad deal to being with. The main strength of Soltari Champion lies in his "Battle Cry on Steriods" effect, pumping the whole team and getting in for 2. That can add up to a huge amount of damage for a 3 drop, and of course being unblockable further increases the synergy of cards in your deck that care about damaging the opponent, like the Swords.
Flickerwisp - A very cost-effective blink support card that is also playable on an empty board. Its ability can remove blockers to allow extra attack damage, blink your own ETB creatures for card advantage, reset Planeswalkers or something like Tangle Wire, or or just flicker a land if the board is empty. 3 evasive power for 3 is a good deal. Many of Kor Skyfisher's interactions are also valid here.
Paladin en-Vec - Although he doesn't have double strike (see Mirran Crusader), a 2/2 First Strike with protection from both Black and Red is incredibly relevant, as those are the two colors most likely to be able to remove him. Hard to get past in combat, especially against black/red decks
Fiend Hunter - A Journey to Nowhere on a 1/3 body - having a 3 toughness blocker and exiling a creature is very good for control or slower strategies against aggro. Also works well with Crystal Shard/Erratic Portal, as he can exile a creature per-turn when the abilities are stacked correctly.
Pianna, Nomad Captain - He's a Soltari Champion with a bigger body, but he can be blocked normally.
Mentor of the Meek - Can be a good source of card advantage - once you start drawing cards, you'll probably draw more creatures to play, etc. Can be mana-intensive, and as a top-deck, he is very sub-par.
Kor Sanctifiers - Casting Disenchant and a 2/3 for 1W at the same time is very desirable; add in the flexibility of being able to just have a vanilla 2/3 when necessary, this card may not look powerful, but fills an important role at a very efficient cost.
Calciderm - a 4 mana 5/5 puts a lot of pressure on the opponent; he is quite a beating when unopposed. Shroud also makes it powerful, although a token maker just blocks it until it goes away, but you can 2 or 3-for-1 through chump blockers thrown in front of this guy.
Emeria Angel - a 3/3 flyer is a solid body on its own, but creating evasive 1/1's every land drop adds to the value (especially with Glorious Anthem, Ajani Goldmane, Mikaeus, the Lunarch, etc)
Galepowder Mage - Repeatable blink effect on an evasive stick that is also splashable. Also can target either your creatures or your opponent's. Gets past one blocker very easily.
Celestial Crusader - 4 relevant abilities (including uncounterable), great with tokens.
Academy Rector - Grabs Moat, Faith's Fetters, Survival of the Fittest, etc. Consider what enchantments you have in your cube and whether or not this effect is right for your cube.
Linvala, Keeper of Silence - a 3/4 flyer for 4 mana is fine, but count the number of activated abilities in your cube to see if this guy is good enough in your cube environment.
Wall of Reverence - Against aggro and midrange, the lifegain is incredibly relevant. Against control, it may or may not be able to block their finisher, but paired with a high-powered creature, it definitely holds them off for a while.
The big difference is that you are talking about getting a consensus between 6 pauper cubers vs hundreds of regular ones (still ~100 if you only look at the players that are posting in the cc thread more than once every 3 months).
We are not only talking about much more cards ~3000 but also a quadratic complexity in the decision making process.
Well, to be fair, I don't think we're going to get all hundreds of people posting in this thread, but if we do, then its just that much more feedback and information we have at the end.
And I don't necessarily want to get a consensus, but, as in the Pauper Thread, just get some information on each card - Often I find myself wondering why I play a certain card, and not being able to think of why off of the top of my head, and often times people here come up with reasons I never would've thought of. And, to be fair, we can probably not discuss anything that's played in less than 10 cubes or so... unless some people really want to, in which case that information will be shown in the final data.
Should I just get started with the discussion then?
EDIT: Thanks, eidolon, that was precisely the data I was looking for.
Personally when I am looking through another person's list, the first thing that I try to find are comments about the cc data, since I don't really need a whole page of 1 liners about the cards that I already know that are good and I am playing myself, but am very interested in detailed information about the unusual choices.
I have done this for my list in the past and am currently generating this data for the top and bottom 100.
Well, this resource isn't just meant for cube maintainers, but first-time cube builders as well, who many need a one-liner about a card that they may not understand the strength of.
I can personally attest to the usefulness of the Pauper thread, as it helped me quite a bit when I built by Pauper cube.
To kick-off discussion of the White 1CMC Creatures, here's what I run in my 451:
1 Mother of Runes - An all-star, staple, no question.
1 Steppe Lynx - Attacking as a 2/3 most of the time is good, but late game can be a dead draw. Useless as a blocker can be awkward as well.
1 Student of Warfare - I like this guy - attacks for 3 on turn 2 all by himself, is a curve in one card. Good late-game potential as well. Dying to removal can hurt, but that's every leveler card.
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Obviously a 1 mana 2/2 with almost no drawback (Phantasmal Image???) is worth playing.
1 Elite Vanguard
1 Savannah Lions - The next best thing, 1 mana 2/1's are staples of aggressive white decks.
The only other one's I'd consider playing would be Weathered Wayfarer, or either Tapper (Gideon's Lawkeeper, Goldmeadow Harrier), but I don't think they quite make the cut for 450. Although I wouldn't fault anyone for playing them at 450, I don't think they beat any card I run above...
To kick-off discussion of the White 1CMC Creatures, here's what I run in my 451:
1 Mother of Runes - An all-star, staple, no question.
1 Steppe Lynx - Attacking as a 2/3 most of the time is good, but late game can be a dead draw. Useless as a blocker can be awkward as well.
1 Student of Warfare - I like this guy - attacks for 3 on turn 2 all by himself, is a curve in one card. Good late-game potential as well. Dying to removal can hurt, but that's every leveler card.
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Obviously a 1 mana 2/2 with almost no drawback (Phantasmal Image???) is worth playing.
1 Elite Vanguard
1 Savannah Lions - The next best thing, 1 mana 2/1's are staples of aggressive white decks.
The only other one's I'd consider playing would be Weathered Wayfarer, or either Tapper (Gideon's Lawkeeper, Goldmeadow Harrier), but I don't think they quite make the cut for 450. Although I wouldn't fault anyone for playing them at 450, I don't think they beat any card I run above...
Great idea for a project, I'll be more than happy to chip in on evaluations.
As for the above evaluations: agreed entirely on all counts. The other ones that are fringe at 450 are the tapper guys who are a reasonable choice in many deck types although nothing stellar. Weathered Wayfarer is a reasonable source of conditional card advantage, but it's slower support for control that isn't required. Steppe Lynx is probably staple status here; being a dead card lategame doesn't matter, when he's a reliable 2/3 or 4/5 early on. I misevaluated him when he was first spoiled, he's dead good.
Last bearing mention is Perimeter Captain. He's an aggro nightmare, negating about 4 damage a turn and being out of burn range without combat damage. He makes your Walls better too. On power terms alone he makes the grade, but most cubers aren't willing to dedicate slots to anti-aggro cards like that at low CMCs.
Goldmeadow Harrier - The weakest of the 1-drops I run, Goldmeadow Harrier is a jack-of-all trades type of card. It's good against almost any deck, since it slows down an aggro assault, deals with the efficient midrange creatures for 1 white mana a turn, and taps down titans and other control finishers that are otherwise difficult to deal with. Unfortunately, it isn't great in any specific archetype.
Mother of Runes - Mother of Runes is arguably the best 1-drop creature in white. Mother of Runes kills auras, counters spells that target your creatures, makes combat a nightmare for your opponent, and allows you to block profitably. Every white deck should run it.
Weathered Wayfarer - The key thing about Weathered Wayfarer is that its ability is for any land. This means you can fetch your utility lands, such as Maze of Ith, Strip Mine, etc., which can be among the most powerful lands in your deck. Weathered Wayfarer is particularly nice with bouncelands.
Category 2 - Aggro Critters Isamaru, Hound of Konda Savannah Lions/Elite Vanguard Steppe Lynx
These guys are all pretty similar. Steppe Lynx hits the hardest (start picking up fetches if you get one, attacking for 4 with a 1-drop is great), but is the weakest on defense.
Category 3 - Other Student of Warfare - Student of Warfare is a beating. He's actually a good creature in any archetype, whereas the cards in the previous category are only good in aggro. Aggro and midrange both love a 3/3 on turn 2, even control could use it as a cheap finisher/early blocker.
Mother of Runes: a utility creature that makes life difficult for your opponent and is playable in any build with more than 5 creatures. A powerful, versatile creature for W. Student of Warfare: a great aggro creature that has the potential to function as a finisher, which makes it an option even for control builds. Powerful and versatile, the only drawback is its color-intensity. Isamaru, Hound of Konda: a great cheap aggro creature: 2 toughness is more than expected at 1 mana, and no drawback in a singleton format. Elite Vanguard: a solid, cheap aggro creature, 2 power, 1 mana, no drawback. Savannah Lions: see Elite Vanguard, only this is a cat and thus more awesome by default. Steppe Lynx: for aggro this card is most often a 2/3 for W with the potential for ridiculousness with fetch lands. Worse than other weenies in the middle to late game. Goldmeadow Harrier: a powerful effect that both aggro and control can use on a cheap creature. Surprisingly powerful. Perimeter Captain: a very powerful control creature. This makes it narrow, but cheap stuff that make you survive the early game is exactly what control needs in a fast environment.
Perimeter Captain shouldn't be in any cube IMO. It's a great card, but it's completely anti-aggro and the vast majority of cubes need an improvement in aggro quality, not ways to hamper it. That guy is almost as bad as Pulse of the Fields.
Perimeter Captain shouldn't be in any cube IMO. It's a great card, but it's completely anti-aggro and the vast majority of cubes need an improvement in aggro quality, not ways to hamper it. That guy is almost as bad as Pulse of the Fields.
Disagree completely. The way to make aggro a viable archetype is not to cut cards that hose aggro, but to give aggro a critical amount of awesome threats (which is no longer as difficult as it once was).
I don't understand, do we really need people saying the same thing over and over again about the same cards? We currently have a card evaluation thread, a Dark Horse thread, and of course Eidelon's statistical resource.
How can the purpose of this thread be modified to provide a unique topic and useful information?
I don't understand, do we really need people saying the same thing over and over again about the same cards? We currently have a card evaluation thread, a Dark Horse thread, and of course Eidelon's statistical resource.
How can the purpose of this thread be modified to provide a unique topic and useful information?
I think a focused, organized discussion of a group of cards is useful, and is completely different than every thread you listed.
I've always felt that Akrasan Squire was the most underrated aggressive one drop. I don't have room for it at 450, but I would run at 540+, if I needed some more white aggro support, I would go with the Squire.
exalted seems antithetical to what white weenie is trying to do, and admittedly it can be, but it does offer some versatility. Squire is an attacking Isamaru early, a pseudo piece of equipment with another dude out, and a chump attacker/blocker when you have an army. The pump effect works well with white abundance of two drops with evasion or first strike.
Disagree completely. The way to make aggro a viable archetype is not to cut cards that hose aggro, but to give aggro a critical amount of awesome threats (which is no longer as difficult as it once was).
Disagree completely. The way to make aggro a viable archetype is not to cut cards that hose aggro, but to give aggro a critical amount of awesome threats (which is no longer as difficult as it once was).
Both are important.
If your cube is filled with cards that hurt aggro, it doesn't matter if you have a critical mass of awesome threats. Aggro is hosed easier than other archetypes, and cards that go out of their way to stop early aggressive starts hurt the aggro strategy.
Keeping cards in the cube that hurt aggro won't help aggro, I don't really know how that point is debatable.
I don't understand, do we really need people saying the same thing over and over again about the same cards? We currently have a card evaluation thread, a Dark Horse thread, and of course Eidelon's statistical resource.
How can the purpose of this thread be modified to provide a unique topic and useful information?
I can see how you might think that, but some sections are just going to have a high amount of consensus. The fact that this is organized in a way that the Card Evaluation Thread isn't, sets it apart from the threads above. I've always used Eidelon's statistical resource as a guideline, but I want more qualitative information, which is why I started this project.
Also, the threads above don't amount to anything in the end, whereas this project is going to yield a large amount of information that will be useful in a variety of ways.
If your cube is filled with cards that hurt aggro, it doesn't matter if you have a critical mass of awesome threats. Aggro is hosed easier than other archetypes, and cards that go out of their way to stop early aggressive starts hurt the aggro strategy.
Keeping cards in the cube that hurt aggro won't help aggro, I don't really know how that point is debatable.
I don't think that most cubes are filled with cards that hurt aggro - and I would consider Perimeter Captain more as a "pro-control" card than a "anti-aggro" card.
EDIT: I've posted the closing notes for this part of the discussion. Take a look, and let me know what you think! If no one else has anything else to say in a few hours, I'll move the discussion along to White 2-drop dudes.
If your cube is filled with cards that hurt aggro, it doesn't matter if you have a critical mass of awesome threats. Aggro is hosed easier than other archetypes, and cards that go out of their way to stop early aggressive starts hurt the aggro strategy.
Keeping cards in the cube that hurt aggro won't help aggro, I don't really know how that point is debatable.
No one is arguing against your last point, but I think you are taking a too narrow of a view. Adding cards that give control a chance against aggro does not destroy the balance of a cube, in fact, it can help it. These cards are generally terrible against midrange (as well as ramp and prison archetypes) and thus will make the control decks more vulnerable to non aggro decks. Just as aggro is offered cards that help versus midrange decks, and cards that help against control decks, and midrange is offered cards that are good against aggro or control, so should control have the option of running anti aggro or anti midrange cards.
What would really hurt the balance of the cube would be control only cards that are super effective against aggro and midrange, thus upsetting the balance of power. Perimeter Captain does not fit this bill.
Of course this is all cube dependent. I feel that the additions of the last year or so have made my cube into a wonderfully balanced object. Heck, if any archetype is currently overpowered, it is probably aggro. You may have found differently, but it seems like most cubes have come a long way from the old days of 1/8 decks being aggro, and still having an uphill battle.
I can go with that, but what is being produced is tons of information with no real good way of traslating that into a single source relating to the section being discussed. For instance, once we discuss White 1 drops to death how do all the oppionions on one card, or the group of cards, get organized into a single post relating to it? In other words I think there should first be some discussion on a "yardstick" of sorts so that someone looking at this thread for the first time doesn't have to wade through a sea of oppionions to get the information they are looking for.
That is certainly the problem with the card evaluation thread.
I can go with that, but what is being produced is tons of information with no real good way of traslating that into a single source relating to the section being discussed. For instance, once we discuss White 1 drops to death how do all the oppionions on one card, or the group of cards, get organized into a single post relating to it? In other words I think there should first be some discussion on a "yardstick" of sorts so that someone looking at this thread for the first time doesn't have to wade through a sea of oppionions to get the information they are looking for.
That is certainly the problem with the card evaluation thread.
Reading the OP solves the problem you are having. Go ahead and check the second post of the thread.
No one is arguing against your last point, but I think you are taking a too narrow of a view.
If anyone is taking too narrow a view, it's you. I'm saying Perimeter Captain hurts aggro, I don't know how this is even a debatable point.
Adding cards that give control a chance against aggro does not destroy the balance of a cube, in fact, it can help it.
This is entirely cube dependant. If a cube needs cards to help combat aggro, then adding in anti-aggro cards is a good way to combat it. I suspect that is not the case in virtually any cube, however.
These cards are generally terrible against midrange (as well as ramp and prison archetypes) and thus will make the control decks more vulnerable to non aggro decks.
First of all, what "cards" are you talking about?
Secondly, it depends what you're cutting for Perimeter Captain to make that assertion.
Just as aggro is offered cards that help versus midrange decks, and cards that help against control decks, and midrange is offered cards that are good against aggro or control, so should control have the option of running anti aggro or anti midrange cards.
Silver bullets against archetypes are rarely good enough to see play in the cube (hence the reason Perimeter Captain is only a 1x), and are much less valuable than cards that can fit in all three (or just two) of the major archetypes.
If any archetype needs silver bullets, however, it is aggro against mid-range and control as mid-range and control have enough support to combat aggro just by the simple fact that magic history has given us a greater redundancy of effects at higher casting costs.
For instance, there are very few 1cc 2/1s in comparison to the wide variety of 4cc draw spells or 4cc fatties capable of holding off an aggro army.
What would really hurt the balance of the cube would be control only cards that are super effective against aggro and midrange, thus upsetting the balance of power. Perimeter Captain does not fit this bill.
That is an opinion mixed with a Straw Man argument.
Of course this is all cube dependent.
Right, so why are you surprised when only a few cubes run Perimeter Captain? It hurts an archetype that often needs support instead of detriment.
I feel that the additions of the last year or so have made my cube into a wonderfully balanced object. Heck, if any archetype is currently overpowered, it is probably aggro.
This is probably due to a combination of factors. I suppose if you really want, you can play with Perimeter Captain but I doubt that's necessary.
You may have found differently, but it seems like most cubes have come a long way from the old days of 1/8 decks being aggro, and still having an uphill battle.
Sure, but that's like saying unemployment rates went from 50% to 25% in some foreign country. It's a lot better than it was, but it doesn't mean it's good now.
Dont be smug, there was nothing in the second post when I started this discussion.
I really, really, really don't understand what you are doing in this thread. What about it has gotten under your skin? Did the OP once pee in your cereal or something?
Let's all relax. It's the internet, and tone of voice is tough to convey. Can we return to what was a fairly interesting discussion? And if we are going to discuss the way the thread will work, can we do it in a constructive, as opposed to an accusatory, fashion?
NOTE: The current timestamp of this project is Dark Ascension. There are no post-DKA cards at this time.
Also Note: the data posted below that shows how many cubes play a particular card is only as current as 2/18. I will try and keep it updated after we finish the project, but this is the data we're using for now.
Also also Note: The data can be significantly thrown off my individual cube design decisions; for example, approx. 25% of cubes don't play double-faced cards for one reason or another.
THE PREMISE:
Over the course of this project, we will systematically discuss the cards for Cube. When I say Cube here, I mean the standard "Most Powerful Cards" cube that most of us use. We're not looking to "rank" or "tier" the cards, as that would be impossible. What we are looking to do is talk, discuss, and present our case while keeping an open mind to the opinions of others. Whatever you gain from this discussion is completely up to you, and the overall goal of this project is to improve our cubes as well as give some insight as to why some cards are played over others.
THE SPECIFICS:
- We're going to be discussing cards divided into colors, then creature/non-creature, then converted mana cost (CMC). We will begin with White 1CMC Creatures, and conclude with lands.
- We're placing cards in the sections where they are most useful or most often used (Kird Ape is RG, Academy Ruins is U, Gathan Raiders is a colorless creature with CMC = 3, etc)
- Every 3 or so days, we will move onto the next group, barring my time constraints on maintaining the OP as well as however much discussion we get.
- Before we begin discussion on a particular group, I will collect all the cards from Eidolon's data as of 2/18, and we'll use that as a base for discussion.
- At the end of each group's discussion, I'll create "Closing Notes" which will summarize what was talked about with respect to the cards in the group. This is to let newcomers (and those who reference the project after completion) in on the discussion without having to slog through pages of text.
- There are no sign-ups, no requirements, etc. You are not obliged to sit through every single discussion until we are done. You can come and leave as you wish, although we would rather have as much discussion as possible, and I hope as many of you as possible will discuss as many groups of cards as possible.
- This Project and set of Guidelines are heavily based on Lanxal's Pauper Cube Evaluation Thread found here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5909526
The OP:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5909526
It goes through every card that is played in Pauper Cubes here on the forums, and discusses every single one systematically, until the end product, shown in the thread, is a list of how many people play each card (something we have) AND why they might play that card, and discussions and comments as to how each card ranks up against each other (something we don't have - well, we may have individual discussions deep in the bowels of the "Card Evaluation Thread", but nothing as systematic or easily accessible as what I'm proposing.)
This would also be able to incorporate the recent compilation of "Dead Horse Cards", as those discussions would take place in this thread when their section comes up.
Also, we can separate and rank cards based on what cube size they should be included in (360, 450, etc), to give those trying to build/maintain cubes an easily accessible pool of information as to why people run the cards they run.
I would run the OP, I have no problems doing this, updating it, organizing it, etc. I just need to know that you all are on board to discuss every single card you run in your cube and tell me why.
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White:
Creatures
1 CMC:
Notes:
Mother of Runes - Has a multitude of uses; forcing attackers through, protecting your creatures from removal, preventing your creatures from being killed in combat (while attacking or blocking), etc. The list goes on. Can drastically influence the outcome of a game without ever attacking. Fits into all archetypes.
Student of Warfare - Excellent early AND late creature, which fits into most any white deck. Efficient leveling costs allow for you to choose how to invest in this guy, providing a lot of flexibility from a creature which beats down out of the gate and still can make swing games on turn 15. Doom Blade is an obvious drawback, but the choices this guy gives you throughout the game makes it worth the drawback.
Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Being legendary is almost a non-existant drawback in the typical cube's highlander environment. Being a 2-power, 1 mana creature makes it a great creature for aggro decks. Has an edge over Savannah Lions and Elite Vanguard because it can't get killed by 1 point of splittable red damage or pingers.
Elite Vanguard, Savannah Lions - Slightly worse than Isamaru, but they are still 2-power, 1 mana creatures that are great in aggro strategies.
Steppe Lynx - Slightly unpredictable, but attacking as a 2/3 or a 4/5 (with fetches, etc) is very efficient for 1 mana. Blocking as a 0/1 is sub-par, and mid to late game his usefulness depends on your draw (how many lands you draw/have in hand).
Weathered Wayfarer - Finding basics is a good defense against mana screw, but this guy really shines because he can fetch any land (Utility lands, Dual Lands, etc). Works particularly well with bouncelands, fetches, Wasteland/Strip Mine (Use him after sacrificing the land, before the ability resolves).
Goldmeadow Harrier, Gideon's Lawkeeper - Tapping a dude every turn is powerful in both aggro and control. As a note, Goldmeadow Harrier gets a slight nod in because of its interaction with Cloudgoat Ranger.
Perimeter Captain - Very powerful creature for control decks. Easily makes the grade on power-level alone, but most consider it too narrow for their cube, or just feel uneasy dedicating an early slot to a control card.
Akrasan Squire - Phantizle believes that this guy is the most underrated aggressive one-drop; his power is in his versatility. He can attack alone as an Isamaru, can pump another dude like a pseudo-equipment and just chumps later on in the game. Doesn't make 450 lists, probably good enough for 540.
2 CMC:
Notes:
Porcelain Legionnaire - 3/1 First Strike for 2 and 2 life goes in just about every aggressive deck, but here, he's put in white because having the ability to pay 2W for him makes him slightly better in white decks. Some like classifying him as a colorless card, try whatever works for your cube. Where he performs best will vary from cube to cube, and thus he should be classified differently from cube to cube.
Wall of Omens - Precisely what W/X Control decks want to be casting on turn 2 if not a signet or something... also works well with blink effects (Kor Skyfisher, Venser, the Sojourner, etc)
Stoneforge Mystic - A great "build around me" card, insane with >1 equipment, since you search whichever one is best for the situation, and can cheat it into play (sometimes for less than it costs, aka Batterskull). Still quite good with just 1 equipment since cube equipment is very powerful, but there is a chance you draw him after the equipment, in which case he is a Squire.
Accorder Paladin - Blade of the Sixth Pride was borderline playable at the time of its printing, but Battle Cry pushes this guy's damage potential far into the realm of cubeability. The fact that it lacks first strike or something similar could be seen as a drawback, but his damage potential makes him one of the most aggressive 2-drops in cube.
Kor Skyfisher - 2/3 Flyer for 1W is super efficient, and his "drawback" isn't really a drawback in cube, because of all of the ETB effects, Planeswalkers, etc. Listed below are just a few of the many uses of this card:
- Bounce a land after you missed a land drop (Skyfisher then effectively costs 1)
- Use Planeswalker Abilities twice in a turn (Bounce the Planeswalker, replay, use ability)
- Really good with Parallax Wave (or anything else that has counters)
- Repeatedly bouncing Kor Skyfisher with either Crystal Shard or Erratic Portal allows you to repeatedly bounce any permanent (something with an ETB effect) as many times as you have mana for.
- Really good with Moxen/other acceleration
- You can re-use an Oblivion Ring/Journey to Nowhere to target something bigger/more threatening that has come into play since you removed the original (i.e. T3 Oblivion Ring, T4 they play something bigger, T5 Kor Skyfisher returning O-Ring, Replay O-Ring targeting the new threat)
- Allows you to reuse ETB effects (such as Karmic Guide, Mulldrifter, etc)
Soltari Priest/Soltari Monk - 2/1 Shadow for WW is super aggressive and efficient damage. Which one is better is a spot of contention for many; Priest protects from a greater number of cards, but it has been argued that black control decks want to remove the Monk more than red aggressive decks care about removing the Priest.
Knight of Meadowgrain - Both First Strike and Lifelink make him really good in aggro matchups - he is tough to get around in combat. Against mid-range/control strategies, he puts a lot of early pressure on, and a 4-point life swing is quite helpful early on against mid-range, less so against control.
Cloistered Youth - 3/3 for 1W is fine, even if he deals 1 to you every turn. The incremental damage makes this guy very weak on defense, since if you get in a position where you aren't attacking with him, the damage he deals to you may equal or exceed the damage he hits your opponent for. Because of this, you generally want to always attack with this guy if he's flipped.
Soltari Trooper - Another "unblockable" 2-power attacker. The fact that he is a 1/1 on your oppt's turn is rarely relevant, since you're not planning on blocking with him anyways, and most things that would kill a 2/2 kill a 1/1 as well.
Lone Missionary - 1W for 4 life and a 2/1 is welcome in many decks - against aggro, the life is relevant on a 2-power body that may trade with an attacker.
Stormfront Pegasus/Mistral Charger - A splashable, 2/1 Flyer for is great for aggressive strategies and mid-range decks that want to get damage through efficiently with or without equipment. They are, however, vulnerable to flying token blockers and split damage spells (Forked Bolt)
Silver Knight - This guy is very defensive, better against an aggro deck then in an aggro deck, as aggro decks have more efficient damage options. Against an aggro deck (especially red), this guy is tough to get past in combat.
Knight of the White Orchid - Can ramp you to 4 mana on T3 on the play, but after that its just a 2/2 first strike. Most consider the ramp potential too inconsistent for cube play, since a WW 2/2 First Strike is not good enough compared to other 2-drops that aggressive decks could run.
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails - Quite powerful in the right environment - 2W to counter a spell or ability that targets a permanent you control, and makes combat a nightmare for your oppt. This guy draws a lot of hate, however, but his unique effect brings another element to control/mid-range decks that is difficult to get anywhere else.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - 1W for a 2/1 First Strike may seem underwhelming, but the ability is very relevant when mid-range and control are set a turn behind while you play dude after dude - this is an aggro creature that creates a ton of tempo, and is even splashable.
Leonin Relic-Warder - A "Journey to Disenchant" on a 2/2 body for WW. Also works well with Crystal Shard or Erratic Portal (Stacking the abilities correctly, you can just exile an Artifact or Enchantment). White doesn't have many creature-answers to enchantments or artifacts, a fact that only adds to the tempo this creature can create.
Serra Avenger - Some think that this card is very underrated -Its quite good for control-midrange strategies. Playing him on T4 for WW while leaving counter/removal mana open can be quite powerful. Also makes Aether Vial better.
Loyal Cathar - A pair of 2-power creatures for WW, this guy is best against aggro decks - you get a Jungle Lion for free immediately after trading in combat or after he eats a removal spell/Wrath effect, although he isn't much better than the other 2-drops against mid-range or control.
3 CMC:
Mirran Crusader - Possibly the best stats-to-cost ratio of any 3 drop in white; it has protection from both a removal color (Black), and fatties in both colors that Crusader can swing into without fear. Furthermore he swings for 4 with no help, and gets silly with equipment, pump or haste effects.
Blade Splicer - 4 power for 3 mana, and 3 of it has first strike. Ignoring the 1/1 Splicer itself, a 3/3 first strike is a reasonable deal for three mana. With bounce or blink effects, making multiple Golems is a possibility. Anthem effects put extra power on the board by pumping the Splicer, and she can swing with equipment to become a relevant attacker. Lastly, the capacity to swing for 4 on an empty board should not be overlooked.
Mirror Entity - Despite its fragility, Mirror Entity can frequently win the game the turn after playing it by pumping the entire team for large X values. It's at its best in token builds which tend towards midrange, but also performs well in aggro. Comes with a big target on its head. (There are some niche changeling interactions with cards like Gravecrawler and Graveborn Muse.)
Soltari Champion - A splashable, unblockable 2/2 for 3 is not really a bad deal to being with. The main strength of Soltari Champion lies in his "Battle Cry on Steriods" effect, pumping the whole team and getting in for 2. That can add up to a huge amount of damage for a 3 drop, and of course being unblockable further increases the synergy of cards in your deck that care about damaging the opponent, like the Swords.
Flickerwisp - A very cost-effective blink support card that is also playable on an empty board. Its ability can remove blockers to allow extra attack damage, blink your own ETB creatures for card advantage, reset Planeswalkers or something like Tangle Wire, or or just flicker a land if the board is empty. 3 evasive power for 3 is a good deal. Many of Kor Skyfisher's interactions are also valid here.
Paladin en-Vec - Although he doesn't have double strike (see Mirran Crusader), a 2/2 First Strike with protection from both Black and Red is incredibly relevant, as those are the two colors most likely to be able to remove him. Hard to get past in combat, especially against black/red decks
Fiend Hunter - A Journey to Nowhere on a 1/3 body - having a 3 toughness blocker and exiling a creature is very good for control or slower strategies against aggro. Also works well with Crystal Shard/Erratic Portal, as he can exile a creature per-turn when the abilities are stacked correctly.
Pianna, Nomad Captain - He's a Soltari Champion with a bigger body, but he can be blocked normally.
Mentor of the Meek - Can be a good source of card advantage - once you start drawing cards, you'll probably draw more creatures to play, etc. Can be mana-intensive, and as a top-deck, he is very sub-par.
4 CMC:
Hero of Bladehold - On an empty board, this guy obviously
Kor Sanctifiers - Casting Disenchant and a 2/3 for 1W at the same time is very desirable; add in the flexibility of being able to just have a vanilla 2/3 when necessary, this card may not look powerful, but fills an important role at a very efficient cost.
Calciderm - a 4 mana 5/5 puts a lot of pressure on the opponent; he is quite a beating when unopposed. Shroud also makes it powerful, although a token maker just blocks it until it goes away, but you can 2 or 3-for-1 through chump blockers thrown in front of this guy.
Emeria Angel - a 3/3 flyer is a solid body on its own, but creating evasive 1/1's every land drop adds to the value (especially with Glorious Anthem, Ajani Goldmane, Mikaeus, the Lunarch, etc)
Ranger of Eos - a 3/2 is plenty aggressive on its own, but this guy comes with removal/wrath protection that usually means you don't mind attacking with him every turn. Notable targets include - Grim Lavalancer, Mother of Runes, Figure of Destiny, Wild Nacatl, Student of Warfare, although even Savannah Lions and Elite Vanguard are fine to grab.
Galepowder Mage - Repeatable blink effect on an evasive stick that is also splashable. Also can target either your creatures or your opponent's. Gets past one blocker very easily.
Celestial Crusader - 4 relevant abilities (including uncounterable), great with tokens.
Academy Rector - Grabs Moat, Faith's Fetters, Survival of the Fittest, etc. Consider what enchantments you have in your cube and whether or not this effect is right for your cube.
Linvala, Keeper of Silence - a 3/4 flyer for 4 mana is fine, but count the number of activated abilities in your cube to see if this guy is good enough in your cube environment.
Wall of Reverence - Against aggro and midrange, the lifegain is incredibly relevant. Against control, it may or may not be able to block their finisher, but paired with a high-powered creature, it definitely holds them off for a while.
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Card Name (Number of cubes that play them)
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Well, to be fair, I don't think we're going to get all hundreds of people posting in this thread, but if we do, then its just that much more feedback and information we have at the end.
And I don't necessarily want to get a consensus, but, as in the Pauper Thread, just get some information on each card - Often I find myself wondering why I play a certain card, and not being able to think of why off of the top of my head, and often times people here come up with reasons I never would've thought of. And, to be fair, we can probably not discuss anything that's played in less than 10 cubes or so... unless some people really want to, in which case that information will be shown in the final data.
Should I just get started with the discussion then?
EDIT: Thanks, eidolon, that was precisely the data I was looking for.
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Well, this resource isn't just meant for cube maintainers, but first-time cube builders as well, who many need a one-liner about a card that they may not understand the strength of.
I can personally attest to the usefulness of the Pauper thread, as it helped me quite a bit when I built by Pauper cube.
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1 Mother of Runes - An all-star, staple, no question.
1 Steppe Lynx - Attacking as a 2/3 most of the time is good, but late game can be a dead draw. Useless as a blocker can be awkward as well.
1 Student of Warfare - I like this guy - attacks for 3 on turn 2 all by himself, is a curve in one card. Good late-game potential as well. Dying to removal can hurt, but that's every leveler card.
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Obviously a 1 mana 2/2 with almost no drawback (Phantasmal Image???) is worth playing.
1 Elite Vanguard
1 Savannah Lions - The next best thing, 1 mana 2/1's are staples of aggressive white decks.
The only other one's I'd consider playing would be Weathered Wayfarer, or either Tapper (Gideon's Lawkeeper, Goldmeadow Harrier), but I don't think they quite make the cut for 450. Although I wouldn't fault anyone for playing them at 450, I don't think they beat any card I run above...
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Great idea for a project, I'll be more than happy to chip in on evaluations.
As for the above evaluations: agreed entirely on all counts. The other ones that are fringe at 450 are the tapper guys who are a reasonable choice in many deck types although nothing stellar. Weathered Wayfarer is a reasonable source of conditional card advantage, but it's slower support for control that isn't required. Steppe Lynx is probably staple status here; being a dead card lategame doesn't matter, when he's a reliable 2/3 or 4/5 early on. I misevaluated him when he was first spoiled, he's dead good.
Last bearing mention is Perimeter Captain. He's an aggro nightmare, negating about 4 damage a turn and being out of burn range without combat damage. He makes your Walls better too. On power terms alone he makes the grade, but most cubers aren't willing to dedicate slots to anti-aggro cards like that at low CMCs.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Category 1 - "spell" creatures
Goldmeadow Harrier - The weakest of the 1-drops I run, Goldmeadow Harrier is a jack-of-all trades type of card. It's good against almost any deck, since it slows down an aggro assault, deals with the efficient midrange creatures for 1 white mana a turn, and taps down titans and other control finishers that are otherwise difficult to deal with. Unfortunately, it isn't great in any specific archetype.
Mother of Runes - Mother of Runes is arguably the best 1-drop creature in white. Mother of Runes kills auras, counters spells that target your creatures, makes combat a nightmare for your opponent, and allows you to block profitably. Every white deck should run it.
Weathered Wayfarer - The key thing about Weathered Wayfarer is that its ability is for any land. This means you can fetch your utility lands, such as Maze of Ith, Strip Mine, etc., which can be among the most powerful lands in your deck. Weathered Wayfarer is particularly nice with bouncelands.
Category 2 - Aggro Critters
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Savannah Lions/Elite Vanguard
Steppe Lynx
These guys are all pretty similar. Steppe Lynx hits the hardest (start picking up fetches if you get one, attacking for 4 with a 1-drop is great), but is the weakest on defense.
Category 3 - Other
Student of Warfare - Student of Warfare is a beating. He's actually a good creature in any archetype, whereas the cards in the previous category are only good in aggro. Aggro and midrange both love a 3/3 on turn 2, even control could use it as a cheap finisher/early blocker.
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Student of Warfare: a great aggro creature that has the potential to function as a finisher, which makes it an option even for control builds. Powerful and versatile, the only drawback is its color-intensity.
Isamaru, Hound of Konda: a great cheap aggro creature: 2 toughness is more than expected at 1 mana, and no drawback in a singleton format.
Elite Vanguard: a solid, cheap aggro creature, 2 power, 1 mana, no drawback.
Savannah Lions: see Elite Vanguard, only this is a cat and thus more awesome by default.
Steppe Lynx: for aggro this card is most often a 2/3 for W with the potential for ridiculousness with fetch lands. Worse than other weenies in the middle to late game.
Goldmeadow Harrier: a powerful effect that both aggro and control can use on a cheap creature. Surprisingly powerful.
Perimeter Captain: a very powerful control creature. This makes it narrow, but cheap stuff that make you survive the early game is exactly what control needs in a fast environment.
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I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
Disagree completely. The way to make aggro a viable archetype is not to cut cards that hose aggro, but to give aggro a critical amount of awesome threats (which is no longer as difficult as it once was).
How can the purpose of this thread be modified to provide a unique topic and useful information?
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I think a focused, organized discussion of a group of cards is useful, and is completely different than every thread you listed.
exalted seems antithetical to what white weenie is trying to do, and admittedly it can be, but it does offer some versatility. Squire is an attacking Isamaru early, a pseudo piece of equipment with another dude out, and a chump attacker/blocker when you have an army. The pump effect works well with white abundance of two drops with evasion or first strike.
Again, not perfect, but solid. If you had to run an aggro one drop after the obvious (off the top: Student of Warfare, Isamaru, Hound of Konda, Elite Vanguard, Savannah Lions and Steppe Lynx) what would it be?
(I'm counting Mother of Runes, the tappers and Weathered Wayfarer as more utility creatures, so let's say you run all those as well)
^^ This.
Both are important.
If your cube is filled with cards that hurt aggro, it doesn't matter if you have a critical mass of awesome threats. Aggro is hosed easier than other archetypes, and cards that go out of their way to stop early aggressive starts hurt the aggro strategy.
Keeping cards in the cube that hurt aggro won't help aggro, I don't really know how that point is debatable.
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I can see how you might think that, but some sections are just going to have a high amount of consensus. The fact that this is organized in a way that the Card Evaluation Thread isn't, sets it apart from the threads above. I've always used Eidelon's statistical resource as a guideline, but I want more qualitative information, which is why I started this project.
Also, the threads above don't amount to anything in the end, whereas this project is going to yield a large amount of information that will be useful in a variety of ways.
I don't think that most cubes are filled with cards that hurt aggro - and I would consider Perimeter Captain more as a "pro-control" card than a "anti-aggro" card.
EDIT: I've posted the closing notes for this part of the discussion. Take a look, and let me know what you think! If no one else has anything else to say in a few hours, I'll move the discussion along to White 2-drop dudes.
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No one is arguing against your last point, but I think you are taking a too narrow of a view. Adding cards that give control a chance against aggro does not destroy the balance of a cube, in fact, it can help it. These cards are generally terrible against midrange (as well as ramp and prison archetypes) and thus will make the control decks more vulnerable to non aggro decks. Just as aggro is offered cards that help versus midrange decks, and cards that help against control decks, and midrange is offered cards that are good against aggro or control, so should control have the option of running anti aggro or anti midrange cards.
What would really hurt the balance of the cube would be control only cards that are super effective against aggro and midrange, thus upsetting the balance of power. Perimeter Captain does not fit this bill.
Of course this is all cube dependent. I feel that the additions of the last year or so have made my cube into a wonderfully balanced object. Heck, if any archetype is currently overpowered, it is probably aggro. You may have found differently, but it seems like most cubes have come a long way from the old days of 1/8 decks being aggro, and still having an uphill battle.
That is certainly the problem with the card evaluation thread.
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Reading the OP solves the problem you are having. Go ahead and check the second post of the thread.
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Dont be smug, there was nothing in the second post when I started this discussion.
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If anyone is taking too narrow a view, it's you. I'm saying Perimeter Captain hurts aggro, I don't know how this is even a debatable point.
This is entirely cube dependant. If a cube needs cards to help combat aggro, then adding in anti-aggro cards is a good way to combat it. I suspect that is not the case in virtually any cube, however.
First of all, what "cards" are you talking about?
Secondly, it depends what you're cutting for Perimeter Captain to make that assertion.
Silver bullets against archetypes are rarely good enough to see play in the cube (hence the reason Perimeter Captain is only a 1x), and are much less valuable than cards that can fit in all three (or just two) of the major archetypes.
If any archetype needs silver bullets, however, it is aggro against mid-range and control as mid-range and control have enough support to combat aggro just by the simple fact that magic history has given us a greater redundancy of effects at higher casting costs.
For instance, there are very few 1cc 2/1s in comparison to the wide variety of 4cc draw spells or 4cc fatties capable of holding off an aggro army.
That is an opinion mixed with a Straw Man argument.
Right, so why are you surprised when only a few cubes run Perimeter Captain? It hurts an archetype that often needs support instead of detriment.
This is probably due to a combination of factors. I suppose if you really want, you can play with Perimeter Captain but I doubt that's necessary.
Sure, but that's like saying unemployment rates went from 50% to 25% in some foreign country. It's a lot better than it was, but it doesn't mean it's good now.
-------
Do you play with Perimeter Captain?
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I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
I really, really, really don't understand what you are doing in this thread. What about it has gotten under your skin? Did the OP once pee in your cereal or something?
Let's all relax. It's the internet, and tone of voice is tough to convey. Can we return to what was a fairly interesting discussion? And if we are going to discuss the way the thread will work, can we do it in a constructive, as opposed to an accusatory, fashion?