Quote from Zulo
I don't get the slippery slope arguments either. Why does running 2 of X mean you have to consider running multiples of any Y or Z? It's only a problem if you let it be one.
Quote from HichamBecause I like to be consistent within the rules. In a way this is the same reason I don't 'do' casual decks. I always want to go for the best option possible. If I got rid of the singleton rule, it would depend on what my goal was what I would do. But it doesn't seem consistent to only do it here and there without a good reason.
Maybe I am too anal or too spikey or something, but without a rule (singleton) I would push the envelope to the max. There has to be clear limitations or a very precise goal to how you build your custom set. Only adding an extra Duress would seem very arbitrary to me. There would be so many decks or archetypes that could be made stronger or more interesting gamewise by breaking the singleton rule, that it would feel unlogical or unfair to me to stop at that Duress. Why does black deserve that, but not red aggro? Or why just Duress and not some other cards as well?
Quote from HichamOnly adding an extra Duress would seem very arbitrary to me.
Quote from FlowerSunRainI feel the exact opposite. When I build a cube, I want it to create some sort of gameplay experience. If that gameplay experience is best created with 0, 1, 2, 4, 8 or 360 copies of duress, that is the number I am going to put in. Even if duress is the only card that has more then one copy, this fact is not arbitrary at all. Its a calculated design decision intended to fulfill a specific goal. It is the exact opposite of arbitrary.
Quote from JeffDerekI personally like the singleton rule because it's just easier. If I decided I wanted two copies of Duress, then I could do that, but now where do I draw the line? Do I play Squadron Hawks now? What about just playing more copies of Goblin Guide or Jackal Pup to get up the red 1 drops? How about more Gravecrawlers? Once you break the rule, it can be hard to find that line, so following the rule strictly makes it easier to decide what to do.
I don't care if other people want to run multiples, but for me, one copy of each card seems like a good thing.
Quote from MrDumpkins »This is just one other reason to the many others have posted about it. But I think that this is a relevant point to bring up, even if it is a reason that has nothing to do with gameplay.
Quote from wtwlf123And since the gameplay experience I aim to create involves making the most fun, exciting & powerful environment I can with the most variety possible, the singleton rule works perfectly for me. My cube maxim requires the singleton rule in order to avoid 8x Goblin Guide as my only red 1-drops, because that's what I'd want if that's what was available.
Quote from jmw23If I wanted to pay a fair price for spells, I'd play standard.
Quote from JeffDerekI think you're misunderstanding my post. I'm not saying that because I run 2 copies of Duress that I have to run 2 copies of Goblin Guide, I'm saying this.
If I decide to no longer enforce the singleton rule because I want to encourage better gameplay in a way that multiple copies of a card allows, then I logically can't stop without considering running multiples of other cards.
I find it to be statistically improbable that my cube will provide better gameplay with 2 copies of Duress, but with 1 copy of everything else. Once I've decided to play 2 copies of duress, even if I don't end up adding more copies of other cards, it would be irresponsible of me to not consider it. I have to now consider whether 2 Goblin Guides would make red aggro better, or whether 2 damnations would help black control, or whether 2 sinkholes would help black LD.
I'm not saying I'd necessarily make all of those changes, but once you take away the restriction, you can't just say "OK, I'm going to run 2 copies of Duress and that's it", you have to establish where the line is again. In this thread we've seen somebody who runs doubles of cards that are functionally very similar to other cards that exist that he doesn't own (2 Cultivates instead of 1 Cultivate and 1 Kodama's Reach, 2 Diabolic Edicts instead of 1 Diabolic Edict and 1 Chainer's Edict). I know Kenny Mayer also runs doubles of the shocks and fetches, which provides a good line in the sand.
While those are not decisions I'm prepared to make for my cube, I understand the decision and it's easy to see where to go from there as you continue to edit the cube. If I add a second Duress, I don't know where the line would become drawn, and that's a big part of why I don't want to do it.
Quote from FlowerSunRainBut, clearly you don't want eight Goblin Guides. If your cube maxim requires you to create an environment that you don't want, then it seems the maxim is poorly designed. Why would you a choose a maxim that cannot give you the experience you want? Why would you chose an arbitrary limitation that only partially provides what you want (Armageddon and Ravages of War, etc)?
I'm glad the singleton rule works for you, but I don't see the appeal. But that's fine, there are a lot of Magic related things I don't see the appeal of. And thanks to cube, I don't have to!
Quote from wtwlf123Multiple basic lands are allowed in every format. Is that really your argument here? That because you can have multiple Swamps in your deck, that including 10 Gravecrawlers in your cube is the same thing? Come on.
Quote from PhantizleBut I assume you run multiple copies of basic lands, so clearly you have decided where to draw the line on multiples, no? Obviously different lines are closer together or father apart, but we all still have them drawn.
In the end, I think the debate is very similar to color balance or power level restrictions. We all draw the line somewhere, so let's not pretend like we don't.
Quote from wtwlf123What? My maxim creates exactly the environment I want. I want diversity, variety, balance and power. With creative problem solving to meet those requirements. The singleton rule bolsters that maxim.
Quote from FlowerSunRainIf this is true, this statement doesn't make sense: "My cube maxim requires the singleton rule in order to avoid 8x Goblin Guide as my only red 1-drops, because that's what I'd want if that's what was available."
Your maxim says "You must run 8 Goblin Guides as your only red 1-drops."
Your design sensibilities say "I don't want to run 8 Goblin Guides."
So, you add an arbitrary limiter that says "I cannot run more then 1 Goblin Guide."
Your maxim and your design sensibilities are clearly at odds. I'm glad the singleton rules works for you as a resolution to this dissonance. I simply do not see the appeal of this approach.
Quote from FlowerSunRain »Your maxim and your design sensibilities are clearly at odds.
Quote from JeffDerekMore articulately: Where are you drawing the line that allows for multiple copies of Duress but not multiple copies of every other effect the cube would like more of but wizards hasn't printed?
Quote from FlowerSunRain »You pick the cards that make your cube play exactly how you want it to.
Quote from wtwlf123No they're not.
My maxim values diversity and variance. Breaking the singleton rule is in conflict with my maxim.
Quote from JeffDerek- Are you only running 2 copies of things or can you run 3-8 of them?
Quote from JeffDerek- Are you only running multiple copies of things that cost 1 mana?
Quote from JeffDerek- Are you considering multiples of every card in the cube?
Quote from JeffDerek- If so, are you running more copies of Sinkhole/Dark Ritual/Rofellos/Mind Stone?
Quote from JeffDerekAre you proposing that we draw no line and just run multiples of anything we want?
Quote from wtwlf123I would also like to know that. Where is the line drawn, how is it justified, and why isn't it as arbitrary as any other theoretical break in the singleton rule?
Quote from JeffDerekWhere are you drawing the line when you include multiple copies of duress? Yes, I've drawn it at basic lands, that's the only thing I allow multiples of. Kenny Mayer draws his line at Shocks and Fetches. When you allow a second copy of Duress, where are you drawing the line?
Look, if you want to run multiples, that's fine. But I haven't heard anyone propose a second line drawn that doesn't allow you to run multiples of everything but does allow you to run multiples of Duress. If that's the case, then why aren't you running 2 Goblin Guides?
More articulately: Where are you drawing the line that allows for multiple copies of Duress but not multiple copies of every other effect the cube would like more of but wizards hasn't printed?
My main objection is people suggesting that you run multiples of Duress but don't want to run multiple copies of something else, and have no real reason.