And I'm pretty sure it was your cube, my58vw, that got my gears turning. I can't remember if I submitted the deck I was drafting on Cubetutor or not, I got distracted by friends either during it or soon after.
I have a cube with cards to fallen empires (94 cube). There are not enough of certain cards to support aggro for example, or enough duals... so why not run multiples. I don't like multiples in larger normal cubes, but if you cube has a theme, then why not... just let me know what is in multiples...
BTW I love my multiple mishra's factories...
To me Cube is a singleton format. Your cube to me is a custom draft format, which is fine. Ive considered making a custom format for Modern Masters and Innistrad. Its all semantics really. We can still discuss what cards are better than others and enjoy our drafts.
If people want to operate under the singleton rule that's fine, but when they insist on dropping by every thread proposing an idea that doesn't conform to their picture of what Cube 'is' and informing us why they don't like it without helping to answer the question...
Actually it seems to be the other way around. People drafting singleton lists are letting folks that run multiples do so without much of an issue. The multi-cube supporters seem to be chiming in and attacking the singleton supporters with comments of "logically inconsistent" and "accomplishing nothing" ...when supporting a singleton environment is neither of those things.
The kind of suspense involved in waiting for a functional reprint of a card is artificial, and is outweighed by the fun I have playing with extra copies of that card if I judge that's what my Cube needs.
The kind of suspense involved in waiting for a printing of a card is artificial, and is outweighed by the fun I have creating my own Magic cards if I judge that's what my Cube needs.
The enjoyment provided by playing with Magic cards is artificial, and is outweighed by the fun I have using actual eldritch forces to destroy my enemies.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Singleton advocates: Would you be interested in [designing/playing with/acknowledging] a "cube" where there were two copies of every card included?
What I'm envisioning is a 180 card cube with two copies of every card, yielding a cube that is actually 360 cards, and draft-able by 8 people with three 15-card packs.
Singleton advocates: Would you be interested in [designing/playing with/acknowledging] a "cube" where there were two copies of every card included?
What I'm envisioning is a 180 card cube with two copies of every card, yielding a cube that is actually 360 cards, and draft-able by 8 people with three 15-card packs.
Why or why not?
I would not mind playing a group of cards designed like this. It sounds like it would be fun.
I would never design a group of cards like this because it goes against my personal definition of what the cube format is.
I think we almost need to come up with a new name for this so cube builders dont get offended
I mentioned EDH before... If I came up to my local EDH play group and just decided to build a EDH deck with 50 cards, but then used 2 of each to make 100 cards they would laugh me out of the room and say "That might sound fun for you, but you need to find a different group to play with if you think your going to use that deck."
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Singleton advocates: Would you be interested in [designing/playing with/acknowledging] a "cube" where there were two copies of every card included?
What I'm envisioning is a 180 card cube with two copies of every card, yielding a cube that is actually 360 cards, and draft-able by 8 people with three 15-card packs.
Why or why not?
I don't see why not, but I'd prefer 360 different cards because it's full of more Magic history, has more of a variance between drafts, and you can get in more unique effects.
Singleton advocates: Would you be interested in [designing/playing with/acknowledging] a "cube" where there were two copies of every card included?
What I'm envisioning is a 180 card cube with two copies of every card, yielding a cube that is actually 360 cards, and draft-able by 8 people with three 15-card packs.
Why or why not?
I would not design a cube that way because 360 singleton is already a little constricting on niche archetype variety. If someone else had a cube built that way, I would absolutely play it. I would also acknowledge it as a cube.
This is the only design constriction on cube: That it be a chosen selection of cards for the purpose of self-contained deck construction and competition. As long as your selection of cards follows that rule then it's a cube.
I mentioned EDH before... If I came up to my local EDH play group and just decided to build a EDH deck with 50 cards, but then used 2 of each to make 100 cards they would laugh me out of the room and say "That might sound fun for you, but you need to find a different group to play with if you think your going to use that deck."
EDH requires this sort of standardized rules base so that people can build decks separately and come together to compete from an even playing field. This doesn't apply to cube since since cube is a self contained format and cubes don't compete with each other.
This is the only design constriction on cube: That it be a chosen selection of cards for the purpose of self-contained deck construction and competition. As long as your selection of cards follows that rule then it's a cube.
EDH requires this sort of standardized rules base so that people can build decks separately and come together to compete from an even playing field. This doesn't apply to cube since since cube is a self contained format and cubes don't compete with each other.
They don't compete with each other, but they do compare. Which is sort of the point of this entire forum. And if you have no baseline definition for comparison, how can you have meaningful discussion?
Singleton advocates: Would you be interested in [designing/playing with/acknowledging] a "cube" where there were two copies of every card included?
What I'm envisioning is a 180 card cube with two copies of every card, yielding a cube that is actually 360 cards, and draft-able by 8 people with three 15-card packs.
Why or why not?
Acknowledging - sure. Playing with - of course, it's cube! Designing, not really... Doubling each card makes it tough to fine-tune the cube and reduces variance during play. Also, I just like seeing all those different cards from the history of magic.
They don't compete with each other, but they do compare. Which is sort of the point of this entire forum. And if you have no baseline definition for comparison, how can you have meaningful discussion?
Cubes compare to each other only in function: build decks from it and have those decks compete. I can't really compare my cube to a pauper cube, but they're both considered cubes. It's true, I don't have anything to say in pauper lists, but I could if I did a little research because the basic foundation of cube still applies. There is no reason the same does not apply to a cube that uses multiple copies.
To me Cube is a singleton format. Your cube to me is a custom draft format, which is fine. Ive considered making a custom format for Modern Masters and Innistrad. Its all semantics really. We can still discuss what cards are better than others and enjoy our drafts.
I think having this attitude about it only fragments the community. I think it leads to each side ignoring the other side. By that I mean, if someone has a cube with multiples you might be more inclined to disregard all the data they have for their "custom format" environment in the same way a lot of what happens in constructed is ignored in cube (because the formats are so different).
Not sure if that was written clearly, but the point I'm trying to make is that if we can't actually share our experiences (and have people open to other ideas) this forum pretty much loses it's value.
Again, I see the impact on your cube meta being less significant adding duplicates than adding power. And yet, no one says people cubing with power or without power are running "custom formats". Sorry, but running sol ring and black lotus COMPLETELY changes how your cube plays. WAY MORE than running two copies of birthing pod would.
A cube is simply a custom limited environment. I consider lists that include multiples to still be cubes, it's just not the direction I would choose to construct my own cube under.
I think the only time I would start running multiple copies of cards is if I had a cube of around 600 cards or above, but even then it would be an experiment.
One issue in this discussion is the group-think/consensus in how people build their cubes. There is a great deal of overlap between many of the cubes on this forum and the internet in general. That consensus tends to exclude other ideas or suggest there's only one way to cube. However, the payoff is an interesting conversation where we can discuss including cards/archetypes with more experience and knowledge. "Cube" is coming to mean this custom limited format that we all have been working on over the internet, which seems pretty cool to me. I hope people continue to post original ideas for different types of cubes, but I also like what the cube community has come up with as far as the consensus cube.
I take the same view as wtwlf. A cube with a few duplicates to help balance archetypes, or to allow an effective mana base at larger sizes would still play similarly enough to singleton cubes that we can still have useful discussion.
I think draft sets that run higher numbers of multiples, for example recreating a booster draft with larger numbers of commons and uncommons, are sufficiently different that I would not think of them as cubes.
I still assume a cube to be singleton unless I'm told otherwise. If someone started a thread called [450] [unpowered] [Rise of the Eldrazi set] [multiple copies of uncommon/common] Cube I'd be quite happy to see it in this forum. But I'd be using my experience of RotE draft rather than cubing for any advice I might give.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I think having this attitude about it only fragments the community. I think it leads to each side ignoring the other side. By that I mean, if someone has a cube with multiples you might be more inclined to disregard all the data they have for their "custom format" environment in the same way a lot of what happens in constructed is ignored in cube (because the formats are so different).
I think this kind of thing can be seen in many hobbies.
For example, if I collected model airplanes I may have no interest in model helicopters
or if I like Nascar I may hate formula 1
this does not make one side or the other wrong, it just makes them different.
If I was a baseball fan I wouldn't care less about your football stats.
It is the same way with cube, I play singleton cube... I dont care about information about multiple copy cubes and would not take the time to read posts on their experiences.
I think the same way about Pauper cube... to me it is an awful format. I do not enjoy drafting it or playing it. Does that make their idea of a cube wrong? NO... does it make my skin crawl... YES.
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My 720 Powered Cube Thread
You can also view it here at Cubetutor <---- please draft my cube!!
and you can also see it at DeckStats
If it matters, I just proxied an entire powered cube. But since I was proxing and cost was not influencing my decision on anything, I ended up going 2x each dual land, 2x each fetch land, 4x wasteland, and 2x rashidan port (to punish the abundance of duals), and 2x Ankh of Mishra (to punish the abundance of fetches). So far after playing the cube 10~ times, nobody is missing the shocks and lesser lands. I like the way it smooths mana and lets you build insane 5cc decks that get stomped all over by the Winter Orb or Ankh of Mishra decks.
That's what I was trying to allude to. You can easily upgrade cards in your by adding duplicates of the strongest. But everyone has their stances and preferences, and that's totally cool with me. Interesting points regarding the schism "full acceptance" of duplicates would cause regarding feedback. Artifact removal would probably be even more valuable and important to cubes that have multiple copies of moxen than unpowered cubes, for example.
Still, there are already differences between pretty much everyone's cubes, and that's the way of things. I don't think anyone's been so zealous as to say that people who include duplicates in their cube shouldn't be welcome in this part of the forums, but I will still say that that's off the deep end. I also think trying to withhold the term cube is out of hand, as well.
There has been interesting discussion here, I think.
visited this thread hoping their might be some suggestions for "what should i include multiples of"; silly me
lol, couldn't possibly be that easy. You should add multiple copies of cards you don't feel you have enough of to fully support the kinds of strategies you want to support. i.e. Aggro one drops in green or red, duals lands in large cubes, etc.
And I'm pretty sure it was your cube, my58vw, that got my gears turning. I can't remember if I submitted the deck I was drafting on Cubetutor or not, I got distracted by friends either during it or soon after.
My cube list on CubeTutor.
Both are very much under construction. Please stop by and talk about it!
To me Cube is a singleton format. Your cube to me is a custom draft format, which is fine. Ive considered making a custom format for Modern Masters and Innistrad. Its all semantics really. We can still discuss what cards are better than others and enjoy our drafts.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
Actually it seems to be the other way around. People drafting singleton lists are letting folks that run multiples do so without much of an issue. The multi-cube supporters seem to be chiming in and attacking the singleton supporters with comments of "logically inconsistent" and "accomplishing nothing" ...when supporting a singleton environment is neither of those things.
What question do you need help answering?
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
The kind of suspense involved in waiting for a printing of a card is artificial, and is outweighed by the fun I have creating my own Magic cards if I judge that's what my Cube needs.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
What I'm envisioning is a 180 card cube with two copies of every card, yielding a cube that is actually 360 cards, and draft-able by 8 people with three 15-card packs.
Why or why not?
My cube list on CubeTutor.
Both are very much under construction. Please stop by and talk about it!
I would not mind playing a group of cards designed like this. It sounds like it would be fun.
I would never design a group of cards like this because it goes against my personal definition of what the cube format is.
I think we almost need to come up with a new name for this so cube builders dont get offended
I mentioned EDH before... If I came up to my local EDH play group and just decided to build a EDH deck with 50 cards, but then used 2 of each to make 100 cards they would laugh me out of the room and say "That might sound fun for you, but you need to find a different group to play with if you think your going to use that deck."
You can also view it here at Cubetutor <---- please draft my cube!!
and you can also see it at DeckStats
I don't see why not, but I'd prefer 360 different cards because it's full of more Magic history, has more of a variance between drafts, and you can get in more unique effects.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I would not design a cube that way because 360 singleton is already a little constricting on niche archetype variety. If someone else had a cube built that way, I would absolutely play it. I would also acknowledge it as a cube.
This is the only design constriction on cube: That it be a chosen selection of cards for the purpose of self-contained deck construction and competition. As long as your selection of cards follows that rule then it's a cube.
EDH requires this sort of standardized rules base so that people can build decks separately and come together to compete from an even playing field. This doesn't apply to cube since since cube is a self contained format and cubes don't compete with each other.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
I agree.
My cube list on CubeTutor.
Both are very much under construction. Please stop by and talk about it!
They don't compete with each other, but they do compare. Which is sort of the point of this entire forum. And if you have no baseline definition for comparison, how can you have meaningful discussion?
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
Cubes compare to each other only in function: build decks from it and have those decks compete. I can't really compare my cube to a pauper cube, but they're both considered cubes. It's true, I don't have anything to say in pauper lists, but I could if I did a little research because the basic foundation of cube still applies. There is no reason the same does not apply to a cube that uses multiple copies.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
I think having this attitude about it only fragments the community. I think it leads to each side ignoring the other side. By that I mean, if someone has a cube with multiples you might be more inclined to disregard all the data they have for their "custom format" environment in the same way a lot of what happens in constructed is ignored in cube (because the formats are so different).
Not sure if that was written clearly, but the point I'm trying to make is that if we can't actually share our experiences (and have people open to other ideas) this forum pretty much loses it's value.
Again, I see the impact on your cube meta being less significant adding duplicates than adding power. And yet, no one says people cubing with power or without power are running "custom formats". Sorry, but running sol ring and black lotus COMPLETELY changes how your cube plays. WAY MORE than running two copies of birthing pod would.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
I think draft sets that run higher numbers of multiples, for example recreating a booster draft with larger numbers of commons and uncommons, are sufficiently different that I would not think of them as cubes.
I still assume a cube to be singleton unless I'm told otherwise. If someone started a thread called [450] [unpowered] [Rise of the Eldrazi set] [multiple copies of uncommon/common] Cube I'd be quite happy to see it in this forum. But I'd be using my experience of RotE draft rather than cubing for any advice I might give.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I think this kind of thing can be seen in many hobbies.
For example, if I collected model airplanes I may have no interest in model helicopters
or if I like Nascar I may hate formula 1
this does not make one side or the other wrong, it just makes them different.
If I was a baseball fan I wouldn't care less about your football stats.
It is the same way with cube, I play singleton cube... I dont care about information about multiple copy cubes and would not take the time to read posts on their experiences.
I think the same way about Pauper cube... to me it is an awful format. I do not enjoy drafting it or playing it. Does that make their idea of a cube wrong? NO... does it make my skin crawl... YES.
You can also view it here at Cubetutor <---- please draft my cube!!
and you can also see it at DeckStats
Still, there are already differences between pretty much everyone's cubes, and that's the way of things. I don't think anyone's been so zealous as to say that people who include duplicates in their cube shouldn't be welcome in this part of the forums, but I will still say that that's off the deep end. I also think trying to withhold the term cube is out of hand, as well.
There has been interesting discussion here, I think.
My cube list on CubeTutor.
Both are very much under construction. Please stop by and talk about it!
lol, couldn't possibly be that easy. You should add multiple copies of cards you don't feel you have enough of to fully support the kinds of strategies you want to support. i.e. Aggro one drops in green or red, duals lands in large cubes, etc.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
Prophetic Prism.
Former DCI L2 Judge
My old Cube podcast on ManaDeprived, with Goodking and artbcnco: http://manadeprived.com/podcasts/mtgin3d/
You can find me on Twitter as well.