One member of my play group is suggesting that my 550 cube has too much fixing. So i wondered what could constitute too much fixing?
He suggests that as there is so much fixing it makes midrange and control better and thus aggro worse. I know that is a whole different discussion.
So, what i am running is all 10 signets, ABU, Fetchs, Shocks, A cycle combination of bounce/scars fast/pain lands depending on the color pair, and also the WW Man lands. I realized that i had 5 extra fixing for allied color pairs and was thinking of evening things out. When i posed the question to my group on cutting 5 fixing from allied or add in 5 enemy fixing when one member said cut all the signets.
So how much fixing is too much?
Mods, if this fits in another thread please merge. I just couldn't find one on this topic.
It highly depends on your playgroup. My cube has a lot of fixing when compared to other cubes, but in the last couple drafts aggro has dominated.(it might have something to do with me being on an aggro binge atm). If your group abuses fixing and constantly has 4 and 5 color decks for everyone I would say you have too much. My group usually has 2 or maybe three colors in their deck and I run 4 lands per color in 360.
What is said by a lot of people in this thread is that you don't need to run full cycles, Certain signets are unneeded(Ie the nonblue ones).
Depends. Most people limit the fixing in their cube to limit the power of the 5c Control builds that usually crop up.
If you can spend the first pack picking nonbasics and your deck curves Sylvan Library --> Slagstorm --> Nekkratal --> Tidings --> Admonition Angel or something stupid like that, perhaps it's a sign to reduce.
It also depends on the kind of fixing you have: Signets are useless for aggro, but amazing in control, while the Scards fastlands (While still fine for control) are amazing in aggro.
My Cube has 5 fixing lands for each color pair, 5 Five color lands, and Blue + grull & orzhov signets. (at 540)
Consider which color pairs need fixing the most. Dimir Control usually has time to draw out of bad mana, so it's not as essential as fixing for Orzhov, where everything has really heavy color requirements.
I'm confidant you don't need all 10 signets. When's the last time someone drafted R/W control?
That was one solution i was thinking about. Cutting some of the signets. I don't think my groups drafters draft 4+ color decks, but 3 color is common, 2 color with a splash.
If every deck can cast any spell of any color they want with minimal effort, there's too much fixing. If anything more than a 2-color deck is impossible, there's not enough fixing. If 2 color decks splashing a 3rd color for 1-2 spells is possible if you pay attention to fixing, I think you're right where you should be. 4-5 color decks should be possible but a rarity, and should require premium prioritization of fixing by the player drafting it.
It's more of a feeling you'll get from how your playgroup drafts rather than a pure numbers game.
That was one solution i was thinking about. Cutting some of the signets. I don't think my groups drafters draft 4+ color decks, but 3 color is common, 2 color with a splash.
That seems like a good place to be. So long as your drafters don't feel they can just draft whatever they want without any concern to mana, you're probably fine.
If you feel you want more, the idea of running a second set of fetchlands has been bandied about before. I like it because fetches are more useful to a wider spectrum of decks: Arid mesa is fine in a G/W deck, while Plateau less so.
(Yes it breaks the singleton rule, but really, it's your cube. Who cares)
Thanks for all the comments. It feels like I'm probably not running too much mana fixing but perhaps i could try out removing some of the signets for colorless mana rocks to see if that changes my groups draft dynamic.
If every deck can cast any spell of any color they want with minimal effort, there's too much fixing. If anything more than a 2-color deck is impossible, there's not enough fixing. If 2 color decks splashing a 3rd color for 1-2 spells is possible if you pay attention to fixing, I think you're right where you should be. 4-5 color decks should be possible but a rarity, and should require premium prioritization of fixing by the player drafting it.
It's more of a feeling you'll get from how your playgroup drafts rather than a pure numbers game.
And if a two color deck is impossible you should probably share your basic lands.
I originally ran all 10 signets, which I found to be a huge mistake after the first two drafts... after the first draft was crushed by a 5 colour monstrosity running as many signets it could find, and the second by a signet-wildfire deck, they became more highly valued than I would've liked. To address this, I cut all 10 signets (I might explore adding some in control colours later), and stuck to only gilded lotus as a "fixer" (and its barely that).
I think making mana fixing colourless is too powerful for other archetypes. In green, I have as much as is cube-worthy, since our belief is that green should be the colour of ramp and fixing (as opposed to every colour being enabled by colourless).
I originally ran all 10 signets, which I found to be a huge mistake after the first two drafts... after the first draft was crushed by a 5 colour monstrosity running as many signets it could find, and the second by a signet-wildfire deck, they became more highly valued than I would've liked. To address this, I cut all 10 signets (I might explore adding some in control colours later), and stuck to only gilded lotus as a "fixer" (and its barely that).
That sounds like more of an issue with the meta of the cube itself (it's a trope that signets make control "too good" which is false.)
That sounds like more of an issue with the meta of the cube itself (it's a trope that signets make control "too good" which is false.)
Yeah if you're playing with people that understand a metagame then signets shouldn't be too bad. If people start drafting 5 color signet decks then the next draft just take all the artifact destruction spells you can and crush them.
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I have the roughly same thing for Mana-fixing for my 400+ Cube. But I actually run half keyrunes and half signets. Keyrunes survive creature wipes and support aggro, like Rakdos, Selesnya, Gruul keyrunes.
It is too hard to get enough early artifacts for Mox Opal to be consistently useful.
Darksteel Ingot is rather mediocre for a powered cube. Coalition Relic is much better at the three drop spot, as it can accelerate you into turn 4 titans all on its own.
Lotus petal didn't give enough value in our cube; costing 0 mana was great, costing a card for a single mana acceleration was not.
Lotus Bloom was too inconsistent in a singleton format where you really want to have it show up in your opening 7.
I don't understand the rationale for playing enemy coloured signets. Not running the full 10 is a good choice (I only run 5) but I find it works best to keep them in the colours that most benefit from them (i.e. guilds that tend to build control decks)
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
First, don't listen to just one guy. How has it seemed to play to you? Ask the rest of the group, is aggro less playable? Maybe keep basic stats if you draft regularly. Personally, just kinda perusing your list, I'd cut the signets to the control colors and make the WW man lands fight for guild slots which would mean most of them cut as well. You could use the aggro signet slots for more of the 3cc mana fixers like Manalith or Darksteel Ingot. They play slower which might give aggro that extra turn to press home a win with the nut draw. As for the slots from the lands, slot in all aggro support cards like Ankh of Mishra and Darksteel Axe then see how it plays.
The reasoning for including enemy-colored signets is having alot of enemy-colored multi-colored cards. Sure there are allied multi-colors ones in my cube, but I figure the enemy-colored needed more help.
Consider which color pairs need fixing the most. Dimir Control usually has time to draw out of bad mana, so it's not as essential as fixing for Orzhov, where everything has really heavy color requirements.
I'm confidant you don't need all 10 signets. When's the last time someone drafted R/W control?
RW control is called wildfire. Also american control with brago and friends, but this thread pre-dates that.
"
You can play RW control without it being a "Wildfire" deck. Wildfire is a specific archetype within the midrange and control theaters that is optimized to break the namesake card (Wildfire) and Burning of Xinye with effects that make it asymmetrical. A lot of Boros control decks aren't (and don't want) Wildfire.
He suggests that as there is so much fixing it makes midrange and control better and thus aggro worse. I know that is a whole different discussion.
So, what i am running is all 10 signets, ABU, Fetchs, Shocks, A cycle combination of bounce/scars fast/pain lands depending on the color pair, and also the WW Man lands. I realized that i had 5 extra fixing for allied color pairs and was thinking of evening things out. When i posed the question to my group on cutting 5 fixing from allied or add in 5 enemy fixing when one member said cut all the signets.
So how much fixing is too much?
Mods, if this fits in another thread please merge. I just couldn't find one on this topic.
My Cube - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=402187
What is said by a lot of people in this thread is that you don't need to run full cycles, Certain signets are unneeded(Ie the nonblue ones).
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
If you can spend the first pack picking nonbasics and your deck curves Sylvan Library --> Slagstorm --> Nekkratal --> Tidings --> Admonition Angel or something stupid like that, perhaps it's a sign to reduce.
It also depends on the kind of fixing you have: Signets are useless for aggro, but amazing in control, while the Scards fastlands (While still fine for control) are amazing in aggro.
My Cube has 5 fixing lands for each color pair, 5 Five color lands, and Blue + grull & orzhov signets. (at 540)
Consider which color pairs need fixing the most. Dimir Control usually has time to draw out of bad mana, so it's not as essential as fixing for Orzhov, where everything has really heavy color requirements.
I'm confidant you don't need all 10 signets. When's the last time someone drafted R/W control?
It's more of a feeling you'll get from how your playgroup drafts rather than a pure numbers game.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
That seems like a good place to be. So long as your drafters don't feel they can just draft whatever they want without any concern to mana, you're probably fine.
If you feel you want more, the idea of running a second set of fetchlands has been bandied about before. I like it because fetches are more useful to a wider spectrum of decks: Arid mesa is fine in a G/W deck, while Plateau less so.
(Yes it breaks the singleton rule, but really, it's your cube. Who cares)
And if a two color deck is impossible you should probably share your basic lands.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
I think making mana fixing colourless is too powerful for other archetypes. In green, I have as much as is cube-worthy, since our belief is that green should be the colour of ramp and fixing (as opposed to every colour being enabled by colourless).
That sounds like more of an issue with the meta of the cube itself (it's a trope that signets make control "too good" which is false.)
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
Yeah if you're playing with people that understand a metagame then signets shouldn't be too bad. If people start drafting 5 color signet decks then the next draft just take all the artifact destruction spells you can and crush them.
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Current rocks running:
The Moxen
Enemy-colored signets
Blacker Lotus
Mox Opal
Mox Diamond
Chrome Mox
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Grim Monolith
Mind Stone
Darksteel Ingot
Chromatic Lantern
Lotus Petal
Lotus Bloom
A lot of those cards aren't good enough for tighter powered lists, IMO.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Darksteel Ingot is rather mediocre for a powered cube. Coalition Relic is much better at the three drop spot, as it can accelerate you into turn 4 titans all on its own.
Lotus petal didn't give enough value in our cube; costing 0 mana was great, costing a card for a single mana acceleration was not.
Lotus Bloom was too inconsistent in a singleton format where you really want to have it show up in your opening 7.
I don't understand the rationale for playing enemy coloured signets. Not running the full 10 is a good choice (I only run 5) but I find it works best to keep them in the colours that most benefit from them (i.e. guilds that tend to build control decks)
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
http://cubetutor.com/cubeblog/993
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/23690
Roughly 400 at the moment. I might tighten it down to 380.
As for Mox Opal, I've included Darksteel Citadel, Seat of the Synod, Vault of Whispers, and Ancient Den to help with the metalcraft.
The reasoning for including enemy-colored signets is having alot of enemy-colored multi-colored cards. Sure there are allied multi-colors ones in my cube, but I figure the enemy-colored needed more help.
RW control is called wildfire. Also american control with brago and friends, but this thread pre-dates that.
BRGProssh Skyraider of Kher
"
You can play RW control without it being a "Wildfire" deck. Wildfire is a specific archetype within the midrange and control theaters that is optimized to break the namesake card (Wildfire) and Burning of Xinye with effects that make it asymmetrical. A lot of Boros control decks aren't (and don't want) Wildfire.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!