Literally just get 8 or so people to just grab piles and start shuffling the piles, exchanging parts of their piles with others every so often. That's really it.
when i am finished building it. i am usually left with 8 piles (5 colors, land, artifacts, multi-color) all of about the same size. I shuffle each pile up. then pile shuffle the eight stacks into eight new stacks each of the new stacks has equal parts from each of the old ones, then shuffle those and then shuffle the stacks together.
then make packs as i put them away in the box.
Just shuffle the bad boy up. Divide it into piles, and then take bits of each pile and shuffle them together into new piles. Lather, rinse, repeat. If you leave the cube shuffled together between drafts, it doesn't require as much shuffling as it does when the thing is in order.
We found that just doing pile and stack shuffling still left us with uneven packs where we'd see five lands in a pack or six blue cards (note that my ratios are pretty much standard).
After hearing players gripe about the stilted packs I decided to shuffle as follows: de-randomize into respective sections, divide each secion into ten piles so that you have ten stacks with an even distribution of colored cards followed by artifacts, land, and multi/guild. For my 720 cube each stack is 9 of each colored, 7 artifact, 6 guild, 9 land with the leftovers shuffled and distributed evenly across the stacks, I then shuffle each stack and put them in the box.
It's labor intensive but it affords a much greater eveness of distribution.
Our approach is like wtwlf's, with one addition: we continue to shuffle as we build packs. So, for example, after shuffling and recombining 7 piles or so, we'll take a card or two randomly from each pile and put them into the draft pack. (We use plastic card bags to hold packs together.) This adds a little time on the back end, but helps to avoid "clumps" that arise from pile / mash shuffling.
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But that is what you have to expect with true randomness: With 8 equal sized sections, you have a > 75% chance of either 0 or >=5 cards from one particular section per booster.
I honestly don't think true randomness is needed, or particularly wanted. It is also not how actual MTG are distributed as (I believe) print runs tend to normalize color distribution.
My approach is similar to Temujin7's. The cube is sorted into 8 sections for storage which has the added benefit of making card accountability and cube updating a lot easier. When we draft, each player gets a stack of 6x WUBRG, 5x colorless, 5x multicolored, 5x land and then shuffles that 45. So there's not a perfect distribution in each pack, but there is a perfect distribution over the 45 and the packs are fairly normalized.
Pile shuffle into 8 piles, pile shuffle each pile, mix every 2 piles into a bigger pile and shuffle the 4 big piles, then mix everything together.
Repeat until i get bored.
I do this whenever I'm watching TV or whatever, so my cube is always fully randomized and ready to be drafted whenever.
I used to have a whole pile shuffle method which left me with somewhat random, somewhat seeded packs. Most packs had at least two of each color in them. Doing this with the whole cube took about 10-15 minutes or so, depending if I was doing it by myself or if I had a group of people around me to chat with while shuffling.
Now, however, I've moved more toward a 'just shuffle the darn thing' method. After each draft we sort the colors. We've been doing this since the beginning. It doesn't take much time and I enjoy having my cube sorted for organization's sake. Once we draft through the entire thing, I'm left with a full color sorted cube. When I'm ready to shuffle I break out the 8 stacks. I then shuffle one stack into another stack and I'm left with 4 stacks. I do it again, and I have 2 stacks. I shuffle those and voila, I have a fully shuffled cube. This process takes about 5 minutes and leaves me with much more random packs and over all a better draft format.
The way my group does it is that we lay out all the green cards, then stack one of every group on top, then shuffle those piles a bunch. We have great variety in our packs.
I honestly don't think true randomness is needed, or particularly wanted. It is also not how actual MTG are distributed as (I believe) print runs tend to normalize color distribution.
My approach is similar to Temujin7's. The cube is sorted into 8 sections for storage which has the added benefit of making card accountability and cube updating a lot easier. When we draft, each player gets a stack of 6x WUBRG, 5x colorless, 5x multicolored, 5x land and then shuffles that 45. So there's not a perfect distribution in each pack, but there is a perfect distribution over the 45 and the packs are fairly normalized.
i really like this idea. i've had drafts before where no one enters a color because none of the early packs contain it. seems like a good way to avoid this bias. especially if you have a large cube and are only drafting a 4 man or something.
After having things sorted by color:
Have 8 piles, one of each color, one for land colorless and multi. Shuffle those like normal within themselves. Put the 8 piles in a row, and then just down the row taking the top of each card and putting it in another separate pile. Occasionally skip the land/arti/multi as those won't be large enough. This will ensure even distribution of things initially. Then shuffle that as normal.
After a draft:
Just shuffle the decks together/into the left over cards. When you go to draft again, just separate your cube into 15 stacks, take one of each for the packs, ta da. Takes 2 minutes max and is completely random, no need for shuffling outside of putting the cards away at the end of the game
I know I'm late to the party, but what do you mean by this?
"Washing cards" is like what they do in a casino. Dumping everything in a big mess and mixing everything around. Like what you do with scrabble tokens at the start of a game.
As for the topic at hand, i think i've settled on this shuffling method (super simplified version of metamind's method):
1) Everyone shuffles the 8 separate piles for WUBRGMCL individually (all 8 are about equal for me).
2) Everyone makes packs by taking 2 cards from each pile (16 card packs).
3) Shuffle each pack and randomly remove 3 cards from each.
4) Shuffle all removed cards together.
5) Redistribute 2 cards from this pile to each pack.
This means you can have anywhere from 0-4 of any type per pack, but that they will mostly be pretty well distributed, like real packs.
Other benefits include far less shuffling than required to fully randomize a large deck; cube is always sorted by color for easy modification/verification.
Why not just shuffle the 45 before you make packs? Distribution won't normalized within the pack but you'll rarely be far off from it. I do approve of seeding packs like that, but I don't think you need to play three card monte with it.
Why not just shuffle the 45 before you make packs? Distribution won't normalized within the pack but you'll rarely be far off from it. I do approve of seeding packs like that, but I don't think you need to play three card monte with it.
That sounds alright, but definitely a 2nd choice for me. It would be a bit too much like full random for my tastes. Also, i don't like that i'd have too much information about the distribution of my 2 future packs. E.g. when cracking pack 2, you know way too much about pack 3.
Anyone have experience with trying to shuffle a cube that's all in top loaders? Is there any automatic shuffler that could help the process?
Had a friend that used to use top loaders way back in the day for his deck. Back when a top Type II deck was less than $500.
Easy answer, there is no easy way to shuffle a deck in top loaders. Top loaders aren't generally meant to be handled in that way so you're not going to see any solution for shuffling them. He had to break his deck part into smaller clumps and shuffle them that way. So instead of taking clusters of say... 40 cards, you would have to take clusters of 30 or even 20 and shuffle.
Hard answer, the problem is so unqiue that it requires a unique solution. It can likely be done using a microcontroller (eg Arduino) and taking some cues from the LEGO guys. But that's time and knowledge you'll need to expend for it.
Anyone have experience with trying to shuffle a cube that's all in top loaders? Is there any automatic shuffler that could help the process?
Had a friend that used to use top loaders way back in the day for his deck. Back when a top Type II deck was less than $500.
Easy answer, there is no easy way to shuffle a deck in top loaders. Top loaders aren't generally meant to be handled in that way so you're not going to see any solution for shuffling them. He had to break his deck part into smaller clumps and shuffle them that way. So instead of taking clusters of say... 40 cards, you would have to take clusters of 30 or even 20 and shuffle.
Hard answer, the problem is so unqiue that it requires a unique solution. It can likely be done using a microcontroller (eg Arduino) and taking some cues from the LEGO guys. But that's time and knowledge you'll need to expend for it.
Dang it......like protecting my cube as it gains in value but these toploaders make the experience very cumbersome to draft and play.
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What are you fellow cubers doing with your shuffling to ensure that the cube is nice and random?
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then make packs as i put them away in the box.
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After hearing players gripe about the stilted packs I decided to shuffle as follows: de-randomize into respective sections, divide each secion into ten piles so that you have ten stacks with an even distribution of colored cards followed by artifacts, land, and multi/guild. For my 720 cube each stack is 9 of each colored, 7 artifact, 6 guild, 9 land with the leftovers shuffled and distributed evenly across the stacks, I then shuffle each stack and put them in the box.
It's labor intensive but it affords a much greater eveness of distribution.
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I honestly don't think true randomness is needed, or particularly wanted. It is also not how actual MTG are distributed as (I believe) print runs tend to normalize color distribution.
My approach is similar to Temujin7's. The cube is sorted into 8 sections for storage which has the added benefit of making card accountability and cube updating a lot easier. When we draft, each player gets a stack of 6x WUBRG, 5x colorless, 5x multicolored, 5x land and then shuffles that 45. So there's not a perfect distribution in each pack, but there is a perfect distribution over the 45 and the packs are fairly normalized.
Repeat until i get bored.
I do this whenever I'm watching TV or whatever, so my cube is always fully randomized and ready to be drafted whenever.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Now, however, I've moved more toward a 'just shuffle the darn thing' method. After each draft we sort the colors. We've been doing this since the beginning. It doesn't take much time and I enjoy having my cube sorted for organization's sake. Once we draft through the entire thing, I'm left with a full color sorted cube. When I'm ready to shuffle I break out the 8 stacks. I then shuffle one stack into another stack and I'm left with 4 stacks. I do it again, and I have 2 stacks. I shuffle those and voila, I have a fully shuffled cube. This process takes about 5 minutes and leaves me with much more random packs and over all a better draft format.
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i really like this idea. i've had drafts before where no one enters a color because none of the early packs contain it. seems like a good way to avoid this bias. especially if you have a large cube and are only drafting a 4 man or something.
Have 8 piles, one of each color, one for land colorless and multi. Shuffle those like normal within themselves. Put the 8 piles in a row, and then just down the row taking the top of each card and putting it in another separate pile. Occasionally skip the land/arti/multi as those won't be large enough. This will ensure even distribution of things initially. Then shuffle that as normal.
After a draft:
Just shuffle the decks together/into the left over cards. When you go to draft again, just separate your cube into 15 stacks, take one of each for the packs, ta da. Takes 2 minutes max and is completely random, no need for shuffling outside of putting the cards away at the end of the game
I know I'm late to the party, but what do you mean by this?
I believe it's when you employ the wax on wax off motion
"Washing cards" is like what they do in a casino. Dumping everything in a big mess and mixing everything around. Like what you do with scrabble tokens at the start of a game.
As for the topic at hand, i think i've settled on this shuffling method (super simplified version of metamind's method):
1) Everyone shuffles the 8 separate piles for WUBRGMCL individually (all 8 are about equal for me).
2) Everyone makes packs by taking 2 cards from each pile (16 card packs).
3) Shuffle each pack and randomly remove 3 cards from each.
4) Shuffle all removed cards together.
5) Redistribute 2 cards from this pile to each pack.
This means you can have anywhere from 0-4 of any type per pack, but that they will mostly be pretty well distributed, like real packs.
Other benefits include far less shuffling than required to fully randomize a large deck; cube is always sorted by color for easy modification/verification.
That sounds alright, but definitely a 2nd choice for me. It would be a bit too much like full random for my tastes. Also, i don't like that i'd have too much information about the distribution of my 2 future packs. E.g. when cracking pack 2, you know way too much about pack 3.
Had a friend that used to use top loaders way back in the day for his deck. Back when a top Type II deck was less than $500.
Easy answer, there is no easy way to shuffle a deck in top loaders. Top loaders aren't generally meant to be handled in that way so you're not going to see any solution for shuffling them. He had to break his deck part into smaller clumps and shuffle them that way. So instead of taking clusters of say... 40 cards, you would have to take clusters of 30 or even 20 and shuffle.
Hard answer, the problem is so unqiue that it requires a unique solution. It can likely be done using a microcontroller (eg Arduino) and taking some cues from the LEGO guys. But that's time and knowledge you'll need to expend for it.
Dang it......like protecting my cube as it gains in value but these toploaders make the experience very cumbersome to draft and play.