Nice finds on the cube art, thank you! I don't know how I walked right over mana vault.
Anyway are you asking me if I double sleeve?
I think he's asking me.
The majoriy of the collection was acquired, sleeved and toploaded, boxed, bindered whatever pre-2000, before I quit for a time. There were no products available for double sleeving (perfect fit + standard sleeve) at that time. It wasn't for lack of trying though. I used to go to the card shop and sift through penny sleeves looking for any that were under and over cut to make them fit inside each other for my decks, but I couldn't acquire enough of them to sleeve my entire collection that way. As such, top loaders are single sleeved.
Around 1997, '98 or so, sleeve size tolerances got a lot better. New card protection products were even tighter (not quite perfect fits yet). This was based around the idea that a tightly fitting sleeve would keep the opening closed and dirt would be less likely to get in. Double sleeving wasn't an option nor a product yet. If it was, it wasn't widely available yet.
Double sleeving inside top loaders? I wouldn't do it. Looking at charts for polypropelyne, you'll see chlorine is listed as poor resistance. I have to brush up on my chemistry for PVC to see what reactions occur with PP, but do you want to risk it?
Nice finds on the cube art, thank you! I don't know how I walked right over mana vault.
Anyway are you asking me if I double sleeve?
I think he's asking me.
The majoriy of the collection was acquired, sleeved and toploaded, boxed, bindered whatever pre-2000, before I quit for a time. There were no products available for double sleeving (perfect fit + standard sleeve) at that time. It wasn't for lack of trying though. I used to go to the card shop and sift through penny sleeves looking for any that were under and over cut to make them fit inside each other for my decks, but I couldn't acquire enough of them to sleeve my entire collection that way. As such, top loaders are single sleeved.
Around 1997, '98 or so, sleeve size tolerances got a lot better. New card protection products were even tighter (not quite perfect fits yet). This was based around the idea that a tightly fitting sleeve would keep the opening closed and dirt would be less likely to get in. Double sleeving wasn't an option nor a product yet. If it was, it wasn't widely available yet.
Double sleeving inside top loaders? I wouldn't do it. Looking at charts for polypropelyne, you'll see chlorine is listed as poor resistance. I have to brush up on my chemistry for PVC to see what reactions occur with PP, but do you want to risk it?
Double sleeves are beyond amazing, man. I would honestly just double sleeve and go into a box. Toploaders seems excessive.
I have japanese foiled legacy decks in perfect fits + sleeves and all of the cards remain in the same condition as when I got them years ago.
Nice finds on the cube art, thank you! I don't know how I walked right over mana vault.
Anyway are you asking me if I double sleeve?
I think he's asking me.
The majoriy of the collection was acquired, sleeved and toploaded, boxed, bindered whatever pre-2000, before I quit for a time. There were no products available for double sleeving (perfect fit + standard sleeve) at that time. It wasn't for lack of trying though. I used to go to the card shop and sift through penny sleeves looking for any that were under and over cut to make them fit inside each other for my decks, but I couldn't acquire enough of them to sleeve my entire collection that way. As such, top loaders are single sleeved.
Around 1997, '98 or so, sleeve size tolerances got a lot better. New card protection products were even tighter (not quite perfect fits yet). This was based around the idea that a tightly fitting sleeve would keep the opening closed and dirt would be less likely to get in. Double sleeving wasn't an option nor a product yet. If it was, it wasn't widely available yet.
Double sleeving inside top loaders? I wouldn't do it. Looking at charts for polypropelyne, you'll see chlorine is listed as poor resistance. I have to brush up on my chemistry for PVC to see what reactions occur with PP, but do you want to risk it?
Double sleeves are beyond amazing, man. I would honestly just double sleeve and go into a box. Toploaders seems excessive.
I have japanese foiled legacy decks in perfect fits + sleeves and all of the cards remain in the same condition as when I got them years ago.
I double sleeve now of course. I'll recommend the same to anyone who remotely cares about their cards.
Back then, I didn't have a lot of choices when single sleeve was the only options and Ultra-Pro was King. I dug out some real winners to be double sleeved (Tabernacle, Bazaar) and some real stinkers (Balduvian Horde) to be removed from top loaders, so it was time to re-evaluate the collection anyways.
I'm just royally annoyed that a company like Ultra-Pro still offers complete and total garbage while positioning themselves as some sort of premier product with the kind of market penetration they enjoy.
It's not even being about being good products like KMC or Dragon or whatever. It's literally the fact they knowingly offer garbage even BCW doesn't dare sell and Ultra is one of the biggest manufacturers of this stuff I think. Might as well pay Gaylord for the premium Mylar protectors.
**After thorough research and consideration, we at KMC Sleeves USA, would like to provide information and clarification regarding the perceived quality issues with our sleeves in recent times; and issue an official statement elucidating our operations, in hopes that full transparency will help answer further questions and concerns.**
Since 1995, we have supplied the United States card game community with the KMC sleeves they have grown to love. However, we are not the Japan-based KMC Corporation and thus do not manufacture the product. KMC Sleeves USA is an independent exclusively authorized importer of the KMC product. We purchase from the factory in Japan and sell the product to United States distributors and retailers. Through the years we have built a great relationship with the KMC manufacturing company in Japan and they have placed their trust in us ensure that their business thrives in the United States. We have strict quality control standards for the sleeves that we import into the US, as it is important that we consistently deliver a great product.
When rumors of an "owner" and/or "formula change" began to surface accompanied by an increasing perception that the sleeve quality had diminished, we were genuinely concerned and confused. We had not received any complaints from our distributors or retail stores regarding the quality of our product, yet customers were claiming to notice a difference. We took this customer feedback to the factory in attempts to discover the source. After a thorough investigation of all products at the production level, we were able to identify that the Silver Hyper Mats had failed our quality control standards. As unfortunate as this was, we were relieved to have identified the problem and looked forward to reestablishing consumer confidence in the KMC product. However, it did not stop there as customers were still reporting that the product was not up to par.
More recently, and with the help of our supportive customers base, we were able to identify that over 90% of those who reported problems with our sleeves had purchased from overseas retailers on Amazon. Our investigation has found that a multitude of overseas sellers claiming to sell KMC product began heavily populating on Amazon circa 2015, such a timeline aligns with the perceived degradation of KMC product quality. It is vital that we clarify to all of our customers that KMC Sleeves USA does not supply these online, overseas retailers. As such, the quality control standards, product origin, and even product authenticity are unknown. Please be advised that we are now working closely with the KMC factory in Japan to discover the nature and authenticity of these overseas online sellers. However, as is the case with any brand, grey market and b-stock product will unfortunately make their way into consumer hands. With the advent of online retailers such as Amazon and eBay, it becomes a difficult task for us to eliminate and/or prevent all illegitimate sellers on the online marketplace. KMC Sleeves USA does not have an official seller's account on Amazon or eBay at this time. If you have purchased product from these sites and are unhappy with the quality, we strongly encourage you to file a complaint and request for refund with that retailer on the grounds of receiving defective product. Since we do not supply these retailers, we do not stand behind their product and can provide no quality guarantees.
That being said, the best way for you, our customers, to know if you are purchasing the authentic KMC product you love is to purchase exclusively from United States retailers. We have strived for decades to bring you a quality product you can trust. Whenever you purchase from a United States retailer you can feel secure in knowing that we will back our product 100%.
We sincerely appreciate the continued support and hope this provides clarification and renewed confidence in KMC Sleeves USA.
I'm looking to switch my inner sleeves from KMC perfect fits to KMC perfect hards. Can anyone tell me about how much of a size increase I can expect? I don't want to spring for these if I can't even fit the cards in the box anymore.
It's a big difference. I couldn't ultimately switch over because of how much thicker they made each individual card. It's an extra 50% increase at least. If not twice as thick.
It's a big difference. I couldn't ultimately switch over because of how much thicker they made each individual card. It's an extra 50% increase at least. If not twice as thick.
Aside from increased thickness, how were these?
I'd read that there was somewhat increased cloudiness.
Lists to be added at a future date
Animar | Damia/Legendary Timmy | Jacques le Vert/death2machines | Ruhon/voltron | Thraximundar/let's all sac | Mogis/Tribal Minotaur | Sol'kanar/here, have Phage | Drana/swamps are rising | Uril/voltron | Karador/Spirit recursion | Derevi/ janky fair turtle)
It's made out of the same material as the front of a regular sleeve. So it can be slightly less clear than a perfect fit which uses much thinner material.
Lists to be added at a future date
Animar | Damia/Legendary Timmy | Jacques le Vert/death2machines | Ruhon/voltron | Thraximundar/let's all sac | Mogis/Tribal Minotaur | Sol'kanar/here, have Phage | Drana/swamps are rising | Uril/voltron | Karador/Spirit recursion | Derevi/ janky fair turtle)
Thanks!
Think I'll likely move to KMC hards then.
I haven't got a custom box built yet, so the size expanse should be fine.
I think I'm also going to get a custom box done as I'm not super attached to my current one and I really want those hard sleeves. The cards just feel so much better in your hand and shuffle like butter.
So when I first went to sleeve my 720 cube up I took the quick/cheap route and single sleeved with Max Pro sleeves (1000/$22...hard to argue). They served me so well for 6 months that when I got KMC perfect fits, I resleeved the cube with Max Pros again.
In the 10 months since the second sleeve up, despite heavy play with multiple people (Lord knows how dirty their hands are), they have never split, never creased the corners, and (my biggest pet peeve) never got that nasty grey gunk on them (all problems that I get with my constructed decks within a month or less each time I sleeve, which are sleeved with Dragon Shield and/or BCWs.)
As I mentioned a few posts up, I'm now
looking to switch from KMC perfect fits to KMC perfect hards, so I'm going to take the opportunity to resleeve the cube again.
To get to the point; before I go with these Max Pros again, are there any other brands that you guys recommend that don't get that gunky crap on them? These sleeves don't feel as nice as Dragon Shields/BCWs, but again, they've stayed in great condition over a long period of time and to me that's more important. So if this is the only brand that gives me that luxury, I'll gladly stick with them.
Anyone here using or thinking about using the Ultimate guard 550 Super Hive for a 360 cube? I use dragon shield sleeves + lands + dice and others seem like a tight fit???
I've had my cube in a regular old white cardboard long box since its inception. There are plenty of options with Ultimate Guard boxes or custom wood boxes, but just starting out, anything you have available is great.
I've had mine in a simple card board box for about two years. Did the job. It'll become an issue once you start carrying it around a lot.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
Just finished constructing an all foil cube. Wondering if using toploaders would be too much of a hassle to play or draft with?
Some of the foils are slightly warped so placing them inside a toploader would make it look brand new while the other cards are quite expensive
which is another reason for max protection also I really like how rigid the toploaders feel.
Does anybody use toploaders for their cube? How is it?
Should i stick to kmc hard + dragonshield mattes?
Have original dragonshield but want to do a complete renovation
I haven't done it, but playing in top loaders sounds terrible, you deck will be really tall and shuffling will be pretty slow. Double sleeving is probably the best bet, I have a few of my more expensive cards double sleeved and they look feel pretty nice, but not enough to justify the time effort although that would change if my cube was much more expensive.
Have you tried playing with toploaders? Load up a few decks and see how they shuffle up, I would be interested to hear how it goes.
I had 7 toploaders laying around so i decided to test it. It's quite bulky although I can still shuffle those 7 cards in my hand. I wouldn't know
how it feels if it's an actual 40 card deck or drafting with toploaders.
was really wondering if someone here plays cube with toploaders? How do they feel? I'm kinda paranoid about my judge foils
Still deciding if i should buy 800 toploaders or 800 pcs dragon mattes
I'd use perfect hards and double sleeve if you want protection. They're a bit bulky/cumbersome that way, but at least they're playable. Toploaders are too unmanageable to cube with.
Top loaders are like 3-5mm right? Your deck is going to be 12-20cm thick if you have 40 cards. I don't think I have seen anyone mentioning playing in toploaders in the cube forum.
I wish you luck, I would be interested to see how large a fully toploaded cube would be if you ever decide to embark on that madness.
Years ago when the only option was penny sleeves or top loaders, I had a buddy sleeve his 75 in penny sleeves inside top loaders.
Shuffling 60 cards was quite an ordeal. It basically amounted to him picking up each half of the deck and cascading them into each other in a sort of individual "thumbing" motion. Really difficult to describe and rather painful to watch. The stack was also always sliding around if you bump the table or something.
He eventually decided to resleeved them in standard deck sleeves when they became available. The biggest driving force behind that decision was the expense of replacing damaged top loaders.
WGURBLands!WGURB
WGUInfectWGU
Legacy Lands Primer
Top 8 SCG Oakland 2014
Helpdesk
My Cube on CubeTutor
Nice finds on the cube art, thank you! I don't know how I walked right over mana vault.
Anyway are you asking me if I double sleeve?
I was asking Savannah Lion, lol.
WGURBLands!WGURB
WGUInfectWGU
Legacy Lands Primer
Top 8 SCG Oakland 2014
Helpdesk
My Cube on CubeTutor
I think he's asking me.
The majoriy of the collection was acquired, sleeved and toploaded, boxed, bindered whatever pre-2000, before I quit for a time. There were no products available for double sleeving (perfect fit + standard sleeve) at that time. It wasn't for lack of trying though. I used to go to the card shop and sift through penny sleeves looking for any that were under and over cut to make them fit inside each other for my decks, but I couldn't acquire enough of them to sleeve my entire collection that way. As such, top loaders are single sleeved.
Around 1997, '98 or so, sleeve size tolerances got a lot better. New card protection products were even tighter (not quite perfect fits yet). This was based around the idea that a tightly fitting sleeve would keep the opening closed and dirt would be less likely to get in. Double sleeving wasn't an option nor a product yet. If it was, it wasn't widely available yet.
Double sleeving inside top loaders? I wouldn't do it. Looking at charts for polypropelyne, you'll see chlorine is listed as poor resistance. I have to brush up on my chemistry for PVC to see what reactions occur with PP, but do you want to risk it?
Double sleeves are beyond amazing, man. I would honestly just double sleeve and go into a box. Toploaders seems excessive.
I have japanese foiled legacy decks in perfect fits + sleeves and all of the cards remain in the same condition as when I got them years ago.
WGURBLands!WGURB
WGUInfectWGU
Legacy Lands Primer
Top 8 SCG Oakland 2014
Helpdesk
My Cube on CubeTutor
I double sleeve now of course. I'll recommend the same to anyone who remotely cares about their cards.
Back then, I didn't have a lot of choices when single sleeve was the only options and Ultra-Pro was King. I dug out some real winners to be double sleeved (Tabernacle, Bazaar) and some real stinkers (Balduvian Horde) to be removed from top loaders, so it was time to re-evaluate the collection anyways.
I'm just royally annoyed that a company like Ultra-Pro still offers complete and total garbage while positioning themselves as some sort of premier product with the kind of market penetration they enjoy.
It's not even being about being good products like KMC or Dragon or whatever. It's literally the fact they knowingly offer garbage even BCW doesn't dare sell and Ultra is one of the biggest manufacturers of this stuff I think. Might as well pay Gaylord for the premium Mylar protectors.
https://www.facebook.com/KMCSleeves/photos/a.595722823835179.1073741834.117893398284793/1838728906201225/?type=3&source=48
For those who do not want to click on facebook
**After thorough research and consideration, we at KMC Sleeves USA, would like to provide information and clarification regarding the perceived quality issues with our sleeves in recent times; and issue an official statement elucidating our operations, in hopes that full transparency will help answer further questions and concerns.**
Since 1995, we have supplied the United States card game community with the KMC sleeves they have grown to love. However, we are not the Japan-based KMC Corporation and thus do not manufacture the product. KMC Sleeves USA is an independent exclusively authorized importer of the KMC product. We purchase from the factory in Japan and sell the product to United States distributors and retailers. Through the years we have built a great relationship with the KMC manufacturing company in Japan and they have placed their trust in us ensure that their business thrives in the United States. We have strict quality control standards for the sleeves that we import into the US, as it is important that we consistently deliver a great product.
When rumors of an "owner" and/or "formula change" began to surface accompanied by an increasing perception that the sleeve quality had diminished, we were genuinely concerned and confused. We had not received any complaints from our distributors or retail stores regarding the quality of our product, yet customers were claiming to notice a difference. We took this customer feedback to the factory in attempts to discover the source. After a thorough investigation of all products at the production level, we were able to identify that the Silver Hyper Mats had failed our quality control standards. As unfortunate as this was, we were relieved to have identified the problem and looked forward to reestablishing consumer confidence in the KMC product. However, it did not stop there as customers were still reporting that the product was not up to par.
More recently, and with the help of our supportive customers base, we were able to identify that over 90% of those who reported problems with our sleeves had purchased from overseas retailers on Amazon. Our investigation has found that a multitude of overseas sellers claiming to sell KMC product began heavily populating on Amazon circa 2015, such a timeline aligns with the perceived degradation of KMC product quality. It is vital that we clarify to all of our customers that KMC Sleeves USA does not supply these online, overseas retailers. As such, the quality control standards, product origin, and even product authenticity are unknown. Please be advised that we are now working closely with the KMC factory in Japan to discover the nature and authenticity of these overseas online sellers. However, as is the case with any brand, grey market and b-stock product will unfortunately make their way into consumer hands. With the advent of online retailers such as Amazon and eBay, it becomes a difficult task for us to eliminate and/or prevent all illegitimate sellers on the online marketplace. KMC Sleeves USA does not have an official seller's account on Amazon or eBay at this time. If you have purchased product from these sites and are unhappy with the quality, we strongly encourage you to file a complaint and request for refund with that retailer on the grounds of receiving defective product. Since we do not supply these retailers, we do not stand behind their product and can provide no quality guarantees.
That being said, the best way for you, our customers, to know if you are purchasing the authentic KMC product you love is to purchase exclusively from United States retailers. We have strived for decades to bring you a quality product you can trust. Whenever you purchase from a United States retailer you can feel secure in knowing that we will back our product 100%.
We sincerely appreciate the continued support and hope this provides clarification and renewed confidence in KMC Sleeves USA.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Aside from increased thickness, how were these?
I'd read that there was somewhat increased cloudiness.
CubeTutor link here
Still need Andi Rusu sig :/
Current EDH decks
Animar | Damia/Legendary Timmy | Jacques le Vert/death2machines | Ruhon/voltron | Thraximundar/let's all sac | Mogis/Tribal Minotaur | Sol'kanar/here, have Phage | Drana/swamps are rising | Uril/voltron | Karador/Spirit recursion | Derevi/ janky fair turtle)
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Think I'll likely move to KMC hards then.
I haven't got a custom box built yet, so the size expanse should be fine.
CubeTutor link here
Still need Andi Rusu sig :/
Current EDH decks
Animar | Damia/Legendary Timmy | Jacques le Vert/death2machines | Ruhon/voltron | Thraximundar/let's all sac | Mogis/Tribal Minotaur | Sol'kanar/here, have Phage | Drana/swamps are rising | Uril/voltron | Karador/Spirit recursion | Derevi/ janky fair turtle)
I think I'm also going to get a custom box done as I'm not super attached to my current one and I really want those hard sleeves. The cards just feel so much better in your hand and shuffle like butter.
In the 10 months since the second sleeve up, despite heavy play with multiple people (Lord knows how dirty their hands are), they have never split, never creased the corners, and (my biggest pet peeve) never got that nasty grey gunk on them (all problems that I get with my constructed decks within a month or less each time I sleeve, which are sleeved with Dragon Shield and/or BCWs.)
As I mentioned a few posts up, I'm now
looking to switch from KMC perfect fits to KMC perfect hards, so I'm going to take the opportunity to resleeve the cube again.
To get to the point; before I go with these Max Pros again, are there any other brands that you guys recommend that don't get that gunky crap on them? These sleeves don't feel as nice as Dragon Shields/BCWs, but again, they've stayed in great condition over a long period of time and to me that's more important. So if this is the only brand that gives me that luxury, I'll gladly stick with them.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Some of the foils are slightly warped so placing them inside a toploader would make it look brand new while the other cards are quite expensive
which is another reason for max protection also I really like how rigid the toploaders feel.
Does anybody use toploaders for their cube? How is it?
Should i stick to kmc hard + dragonshield mattes?
Have original dragonshield but want to do a complete renovation
Have you tried playing with toploaders? Load up a few decks and see how they shuffle up, I would be interested to hear how it goes.
how it feels if it's an actual 40 card deck or drafting with toploaders.
was really wondering if someone here plays cube with toploaders? How do they feel? I'm kinda paranoid about my judge foils
Still deciding if i should buy 800 toploaders or 800 pcs dragon mattes
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Top loaders are like 3-5mm right? Your deck is going to be 12-20cm thick if you have 40 cards. I don't think I have seen anyone mentioning playing in toploaders in the cube forum.
I wish you luck, I would be interested to see how large a fully toploaded cube would be if you ever decide to embark on that madness.
Shuffling 60 cards was quite an ordeal. It basically amounted to him picking up each half of the deck and cascading them into each other in a sort of individual "thumbing" motion. Really difficult to describe and rather painful to watch. The stack was also always sliding around if you bump the table or something.
He eventually decided to resleeved them in standard deck sleeves when they became available. The biggest driving force behind that decision was the expense of replacing damaged top loaders.