I'm curious how other cube owners feel about including Innistrad block's double faced cards in their cubes? I have declined from including Garruk Relentless and Huntmaster of the Fells in my cube even though I feel their power level is likely justified.
I have a large group at a local store that drafts with my cube and we sometimes have different players or guests playing on any given day. I'm adverse to having others handling the cards pulling them out and putting them back in constantly. Now that I'm double sleeving the cube it would be more difficult and imo no longer worth the trouble of having those types of cards.
Does anyone else feel this way or have different feelings on having others handling their double faced cards in cube especially if double sleeved? Thanks for any input!
I double sleeved my cube and actually feel better about them being used and flipped because of the added protection. There doesn't seem to be any issue with anyone using the cards, even super new players. Not sure why double sleeving would make matters worse.
This is a big problem for me, because I triple-sleeve my cube, and it's mostly foiled. I haven't figured out how to do it, since the ergonomics of de-sleeving a card twice to flip it is absurd, and I don't want my cards getting played with like that.
The upside is that there is only one transform card I want to play: Garruk Relentless. I would play it if I had a reasonable solution. I've considered having a clear-sleeved version for play and a single-sided version for library, a checklist card, or a proxied front // back version, but none of those really sound convenient. I want the full card to be visible and readable when drafted, so the proxy idea is the best I've found, and I don't really want to put in the effort.
In my opinion, Huntmaster of the Fells is good, but he's replaceable. RG is deep enough that you don't need to add a mid-range-only support card. Red and Green in general have no shortage of strong four-drops.
double sleeved is no problem. When we had clear sleaves and only single sleaved in my cube i used a human token from innistrad with permanent marker that said GARRUK RELENTLESS and had his costs and abilities written on him.
A solution I run is I proxy the card in the actual cube, and run the real copies in the token sections that are double sleeved in clear sleeves... so when you cast the card, you just swap it out for the DFC copy (kind of like ISD limited...)
Outside of triple sleeving like Retra (which I cannot even envision - what does that even mean? Perfect going up, Penny going down, KMC outer going up? Sounds like hell personified), I really don't understand how this is an issue.
If they dont know what it does, let them look. Slide out, slide in. 2 seconds and done.
Of course I think Gurrak is the only flip card worth cubing with, so that makes it even less of an issue.
Outside of triple sleeving like Retra (which I cannot even envision - what does that even mean? Perfect going up, Penny going down, KMC outer going up? Sounds like hell personified), I really don't understand how this is an issue.
If they dont know what it does, let them look. Slide out, slide in. 2 seconds and done.
Of course I think Gurrak is the only flip card worth cubing with, so that makes it even less of an issue.
This is a big problem for me, because I triple-sleeve my cube, and it's mostly foiled. I haven't figured out how to do it, since the ergonomics of de-sleeving a card twice to flip it is absurd, and I don't want my cards getting played with like that.
Man, I totally get your point.
I ended up banning them too, removing huntmaster, Garruk relentless & delver from the cube, because:
* There are sometimes inexperienced players in my group, who don't know all the cards by heart. And they often have to de-sleeve flippable cards to read the other side during booster draft - great information for other cubers...
* I don't like to manage flipped versions of these cards as tokens (not doable with inexperienced people anyway)
* My playgroup isn't fond of proxies of flippable cards on a single side (à la Champions of Kamigawa).
A couple of things here:
With any non-triple sleeved cards, you can just pull the card out of the top and flip it over to 'peek' the cardname out. If your players don't know what the cards do, show them by taking it all the way out. once or twice. Or, you can just pull it out (still inside the double sleeve) and just lay in on top of the single sleeve to show the reverse side.
Also, many people have smart phones...look the card up!
Also, new players should be thirsting for older cards and new things, and the Cube is the perfect 'safe' environment to learn about them!
ALSO, seeing the DFCs were actually a part of the regular Innistrad block draft process too! It's not as if though this information has ever been 'private'.
I'm really not sure why anyone has so many problems or objections...
Outside of triple sleeving like Retra (which I cannot even envision - what does that even mean? Perfect going up, Penny going down, KMC outer going up? Sounds like hell personified), I really don't understand how this is an issue.
Here's how I do it:
Perfect Fit down, KMC/Dragonshield up, Penny down.
I found some renders where both of the cards sides are on the front, and then I just keep the actual cards with the tokens, so you can flip it however much you want. It is a very simple and elegant solution, and most of the renders look good.
Yeah, I do it to preserve the inner sleeves. I had a box of 10,000 penny sleeves laying around, so it wasn't an issue for me. Unfortunately, they aren't cut consistently, so it was a bigger hassle than it needed to be. I wouldn't recommend it, but I'm not going to let the work go to waste.
Wolfbitten Captive (which I had forgotten about) and Garruk are the only cards I really miss from avoiding DFCs. The others are good, but non-critical. I'd probably play Cloistered Youth, but there are loads of good white two-drops, so I'm fine using something else.
Delver of Secrets had a good run in my cube and I admit that when I cut him it was partly motivated by the double faced aspect. I think he would have been cut in the long run anways due to power level. Garruk Relentless is the one card I feel is completely deserving of a slot and the one that makes me keep pondering the question.
wtwlf123 - I agree with you. My worry is that some of the people drafting my cube may be young and inexperienced. They have never double sleeved cards before and there may be a bit of a learner's curve so to speak. I'm hoping to avoid cards and sleeves getting over handled.
Uchach - I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who felt that way. You make a good point as well with people looking at the flip side during the drafting.
It sounds like the majority hasn't had issue with it. I think I'm going to try putting Garruk Relentless back in with the double sleeving and monitor how it goes for people. If it becomes an issue I can replace the sleeves or pull it from the cube.
There's no learning curve with double-sleeved cards. They just remove the DFC that's in the perfect fit, flip it over and put it back in the sleeve.
And I agree with AA that young and inexperienced players should thirst to learn new things about the game, and after seeing a card transform once, they'll understand the mechanic. It's not a complicated ability.
There's no learning curve with double-sleeved cards. They just remove the DFC that's in the perfect fit, flip it over and put it back in the sleeve.
And I agree with AA that young and inexperienced players should thirst to learn new things about the game, and after seeing a card transform once, they'll understand the mechanic. It's not a complicated ability.
On the other hand, as another poster pointed out, they won't know what the backside of the card does when they see it in the pack, which makes it difficult to evaluate without handling it and thus giving away information. I like those "flip" renders quite a bit.
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On the other hand, as another poster pointed out, they won't know what the backside of the card does when they see it in the pack, which makes it difficult to evaluate without handling it and thus giving away information. I like those "flip" renders quite a bit.
Just like with double-checking Oracle text, players can quickly look them up if they need to. And once they know, they won't have to look again. Or, with players that are totally unfamiliar with them, you can go over the cards before the draft starts, not giving up any information at all.
I think having to show new players the cards once or twice isn't nearly as big a deal as excluding good cards from the cube is.
On the other hand, as another poster pointed out, they won't know what the backside of the card does when they see it in the pack, which makes it difficult to evaluate without handling it and thus giving away information. I like those "flip" renders quite a bit.
As Antknee said, even in Innistrad draft the double sided cards were public information. If they must remove them from the sleeve to check, it'll be the same situation.
I found some renders where both of the cards sides are on the front, and then I just keep the actual cards with the tokens, so you can flip it however much you want. It is a very simple and elegant solution, and most of the renders look good.
I think I might make the rest of the playable DFCs, actually. I wanted to remove the flavor text to de-clutter these anyway. Let me know if you have any requests!
The problem with the "flip card proxies" for double faced cards is that the rules for transform cards work different, for example when it comes to the cmc of the flipped version.
Which is why I have the real card in a perfect fit, to place on the card for flippings back and forth?
@betweenwalls thank you for making those, I love them
I think I might make the rest of the playable DFCs, actually. I wanted to remove the flavor text to de-clutter these anyway. Let me know if you have any requests!
Those are awesome! Thank you for making them for the community. Any chance of making a Garruk Relentless? It seems like it would be too much text unless you eliminated some or all of the art.
I think I might make the rest of the playable DFCs, actually. I wanted to remove the flavor text to de-clutter these anyway. Let me know if you have any requests!
I would use a set of these in my Innistrad cube!
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I have a large group at a local store that drafts with my cube and we sometimes have different players or guests playing on any given day. I'm adverse to having others handling the cards pulling them out and putting them back in constantly. Now that I'm double sleeving the cube it would be more difficult and imo no longer worth the trouble of having those types of cards.
Does anyone else feel this way or have different feelings on having others handling their double faced cards in cube especially if double sleeved? Thanks for any input!
Cheers!
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Also, I absolutely love Huntmaster of the Fells and Garruk Relentless. Delver of Secrets Mayor of Avabruck Wolfbitten Captive Reckless Waif and Cloistered Youth are also an excellent double-faced cards.
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The upside is that there is only one transform card I want to play: Garruk Relentless. I would play it if I had a reasonable solution. I've considered having a clear-sleeved version for play and a single-sided version for library, a checklist card, or a proxied front // back version, but none of those really sound convenient. I want the full card to be visible and readable when drafted, so the proxy idea is the best I've found, and I don't really want to put in the effort.
In my opinion, Huntmaster of the Fells is good, but he's replaceable. RG is deep enough that you don't need to add a mid-range-only support card. Red and Green in general have no shortage of strong four-drops.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
If they dont know what it does, let them look. Slide out, slide in. 2 seconds and done.
Of course I think Gurrak is the only flip card worth cubing with, so that makes it even less of an issue.
Ive run Garruk relentless, Huntmaster, Reckless Waif and Mayor of Avabruk at varying points
Edit: Always forget cloistered youth, she is sneaky.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
A lot of cubes like Cloistered Youth too.
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A couple of things here:
With any non-triple sleeved cards, you can just pull the card out of the top and flip it over to 'peek' the cardname out. If your players don't know what the cards do, show them by taking it all the way out. once or twice. Or, you can just pull it out (still inside the double sleeve) and just lay in on top of the single sleeve to show the reverse side.
Also, many people have smart phones...look the card up!
Also, new players should be thirsting for older cards and new things, and the Cube is the perfect 'safe' environment to learn about them!
ALSO, seeing the DFCs were actually a part of the regular Innistrad block draft process too! It's not as if though this information has ever been 'private'.
I'm really not sure why anyone has so many problems or objections...
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Here's how I do it:
Perfect Fit down, KMC/Dragonshield up, Penny down.
That is really interesting! You do it to preserve you KMCs?
I certainly would not use Flip cards with that set up.
Some examples:
Wolfbitten Captive (which I had forgotten about) and Garruk are the only cards I really miss from avoiding DFCs. The others are good, but non-critical. I'd probably play Cloistered Youth, but there are loads of good white two-drops, so I'm fine using something else.
wtwlf123 - I agree with you. My worry is that some of the people drafting my cube may be young and inexperienced. They have never double sleeved cards before and there may be a bit of a learner's curve so to speak. I'm hoping to avoid cards and sleeves getting over handled.
Uchach - I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who felt that way. You make a good point as well with people looking at the flip side during the drafting.
It sounds like the majority hasn't had issue with it. I think I'm going to try putting Garruk Relentless back in with the double sleeving and monitor how it goes for people. If it becomes an issue I can replace the sleeves or pull it from the cube.
Thanks for the replies!
Cheers
And I agree with AA that young and inexperienced players should thirst to learn new things about the game, and after seeing a card transform once, they'll understand the mechanic. It's not a complicated ability.
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On the other hand, as another poster pointed out, they won't know what the backside of the card does when they see it in the pack, which makes it difficult to evaluate without handling it and thus giving away information. I like those "flip" renders quite a bit.
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Just like with double-checking Oracle text, players can quickly look them up if they need to. And once they know, they won't have to look again. Or, with players that are totally unfamiliar with them, you can go over the cards before the draft starts, not giving up any information at all.
I think having to show new players the cards once or twice isn't nearly as big a deal as excluding good cards from the cube is.
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As Antknee said, even in Innistrad draft the double sided cards were public information. If they must remove them from the sleeve to check, it'll be the same situation.
Visual Spoiler
Draft!
Whoa, surreal. I made those! (the Reckless Waif & Delver of Secrets)
I think I might make the rest of the playable DFCs, actually. I wanted to remove the flavor text to de-clutter these anyway. Let me know if you have any requests!
EDIT:
Which is why I have the real card in a perfect fit, to place on the card for flippings back and forth?
@betweenwalls thank you for making those, I love them
Those are awesome! Thank you for making them for the community. Any chance of making a Garruk Relentless? It seems like it would be too much text unless you eliminated some or all of the art.
Cheers
I would use a set of these in my Innistrad cube!