Most people simply describe their cubes as powered or unpowered, or they have wacky theme cubes. I'm interested in working slightly deeper.
By building a cube, you construct a unique limited environment with thousands of cards to build from, and I think it's a shame that so many cubes are built of the same few "best cards ever".
With access to cards from ranging in power from Celestial Prism to Sol Ring, and from Mindless Null to Grave Titan, the question becomes "At what power level are there the most fun cards to chose from?"
Various limited environments have shown that it's not raw power level that makes a fun environment, it's rich and deep interactions. I'm also interested in building a low power-level cube, but if it's just a bunch of random bad cards without cohesion, it won't be fun. Therein lies the challenge.
Have you guys performed experiments into engineering an ideal power level for your limited format? What have you found?
I have really enjoyed building my first cube, currently at 360 cards. I do not use proxies, so the power level is not completely balanced. I have really wanted to build a second cube for experimenting with cards that do not make the 'best card ever' cut.
I agree that one of the fun parts of limited play is using the cards you have to the most potential. This means playing cards that are sub-par. For a cube environment to function you have to think of larger synergies. I would be interested to learn how you craft your cube. If you consider using less powered cards, the number of playable cards goes way up. I can see this allowing for some really interesting design space.
Various limited environments have shown that it's not raw power level that makes a fun environment, it's rich and deep interactions. I'm also interested in building a low power-level cube, but if it's just a bunch of random bad cards without cohesion, it won't be fun. Therein lies the challenge.
The key isn't overall power level; it's balance. My working definition of balance is I want each color and each color pair to be roughly equal in power. I also want balance in strategy, with control, midrange, and aggro all playable with combo/niche decks possible as well. Finally, I want each color/color pair to be fun to play.
All that said, I run a cube that overlaps 90% with most unpowered cubes. I cut the usual offenders, power, Sol Ring, Mind Twist, but also a few other people run like Treachery, and I cut down on the 5+ mana creatures in blue. I found blue control to be too good, and Gx midrange having a hard time keeping up. Dropping a good 4-5 drop and then having it Treachery'd was emblematic of why. Generally speaking though, I think what you see as lack of creativity is actually refinement. Everyone is out there tuning their cube to their group, refining what the standard cube is, like we are all working on creating the greatest reprint set of all time. It's basically a crowd-sourced set designed with only limited in mind.
I do have a few ideas for how to make lower-powered cubes that are fun though. Part of the thrill of Magic is feeling powerful. This is the way of the Timmy, and cube definitely scratches that itch. However, you can do that with powerful synergies too. The most beloved limited environments usually let you be clever and assemble things in new ways. I've thought about making a new cube using one of the following ideas:
Assign an archetype to each color pair.
Assign an archetype to a wedge/shard or 4-color combo so that there is overlap, maybe with separate archetypes assign to the pairs.
Get a list of fun limited deck archetypes and include the 15 best cards from each. That way, players can't just draft that deck, but have to mix and match. Balance the colors overall though.
Shard/wedge cubes: focus on a subset of colors maybe with a mechanical theme, e.g., Sultai graveyard cube.
The Desert Cube: one of the more creative cubes out there, oozing with flavor, but maybe not super fun all the time. Good for inspiration.
Stipulation cube: players are given different stipulations on their draft (e.g., card names must include every letter of the alphabet); cube is designed to be fun and allow players to complete the stipulations.
I definitely have nothing against the "standard" cube that runs all the cards we all know and love, I'm just interested in the infinite other plausible formats.
I looked at the Desert Cube, and it seems awesome. There are clearly a lot of synergistic choices going on, and it gives under-appreciated things like Trench Wurm and Desert a chance to shine. But the balance is not quite there: the cube is heavily skewed towards red for one thing, and I'd imagine it's only so long before all the self-punishment gets tedious. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for, though, and it has a lot of clever ideas.
My main cube was built rather unscientifically of basically all of my and my sister's favorite cards (such that the colors were all represented equally, and general strategic bases were all covered). That was years ago, and since then, we've pretty much added good and synergistic cards, and cut mediocre and nonsynergistic cards to fine-tune it, occasionally dissecting it to realign the colors. The end result is a cube of around 1000 cards, and I've found that I prefer drafting it over my friend's 400-something powered cube, and another friend's 500-something unpowered cube, mostly because the format is so diverse. My cube is fun, and I'd recommend that style of building one out of spare cards, but I've been looking to make another cube in a slightly more methodical way.
Discussing the most powerful cube inclusions works in an online forum because there is a common language and experience identifying the best cards from each set. Discovering a most fun cube is a much more difficult proposition, involving actual play testing, discussions with a group over preferred card-combinations and archetypes, and collecting experiential feedback. The latter option is practically impossible to achieve with an online community, hence the much more expedient and realistic option of discussing what's best, power-wise, online.
My cube began as a c/ube. My group felt that some rares were of a power level that adding them didn't upset the balance already established by my c/ube. We added 5 rares to each color and ten rare lands. Eventually I added five colorless rares as well. I guess a name for such a power level would be nice.
At the end of the day, any cubing tends to be good cubing. Playing with some of those awful cards is something that doesn't interest me, but Magic has thousands of cool cards that are nowhere near "cubeable" but are still fun to play with. Look at a pauper or peasant cube, for example; while these formats absolutely pale in comparison regarding power level in comaparison to a powered cube, they are a *lot* of fun to play and there are definitely cool decks you can build.
The lowest powered cubes are neat, but end up a novelty pretty quickly. But there are enough cards throughout magic's history that are good enough but not good enough for a powered/unpowered cube that can definitely bring a new angle to what you're trying to do.
If you want your cube to be comprised of the strongest cards throughout history, I can't begrudge that, but if that's not your goal, lowering power level can be an excellent way to increase format diversity. But, I also think it is important to find where to cut power. Although it might help your limited environment to cut Vampire Nighthawk in favor of lesser-played black three drops, it's still probably best to keep Doom Blade over Cradle to Grave.
The idea is to find where the cards you want to play in your cube fall on the power spectrum, and to build a healthy environment around that. It's like a habitat: when excessively predatory cards are removed, other more exotic things are able to flourish. Then again, There will always be dominant cards, and they shouldn't be cut simply for being good. The idea is not to cut all your favorite cards from your cubes, but to be able to add more of them.
Here's a loose ranking system for how cards play in a limited environment. By the numbers, most cards fall in tier 3 or 4. The standard powered or unpowered cube uses cards from tier 1 and 2. My interest falls mostly between tiers 2 and 3.
Each tier has a card in each of seven common categories (aggressive white 3 drops, colorless ramp/reanimate targets, wraths, etc.)
People have said many times on this forum that they want to design a cube that's based on "fun" or "enjoyment" rather than power level. As if cards exist in this vacuum that isn't tied to players' past experiences.
People enjoy playing with powerful and iconic cards. Contrary to what ravnic says, there is a correlation between power level and fun for a lot of people. it's not 1 : 1, but there is a reason that my cube is the most popular in the area when compared to other cubes that have gimmicks/themes or a lower power level. People love to open powerful cards and are excited to draft them.
I think there's also a familiarity component to a draft that increases participants' enjoyment. The common language of "most powerful" frequently shortens the amount of time necessary to assimilate and grok an unfamiliar cube. I love a novel cube experience, but when you just wade into somebody's "fun" cube without much preparation, it can take a while to wrap your brain around eccentric, budget, or pet card choices.
Like I said, I love it when folks are creative and nostalgic in their cube designing, but there is something to be said with meeting folks half way with recognizable strategies and card inclusions.
People have said many times on this forum that they want to design a cube that's based on "fun" or "enjoyment" rather than power level.
Yes, and those two concepts are not mutually exclusive. For a lot of Magic players, there's a strong correlation between the two. And believe it or not:
Quote from Juju »
People enjoy playing with powerful and iconic cards.
This is what I've fund to be the case. Not only with my regular playgroup that makes up my "core" of players, but 90+% of all my guest drafters are motivated to play cube because of the excitement of cracking and playing with powerful, iconic cards. There's the occasional EDH ringer that rolls their eyes when an opponent resolves a Mox against them, but they've certainly been in a small majority over the ~10 years of drafting my cube.
If you want your cube to be comprised of the strongest cards throughout history, I can't begrudge that, but if that's not your goal, lowering power level can be an excellent way to increase format diversity.
This is where you lose me as I think standard unpowered and powered cubes are some of the most diverse magic experiences I've had. Every draft we do with the powered and unpowered cubes always leads to new interaction or ideas for what you could do and make.
Lower powered cubes are still a *lot* of fun, but regular cube is no where close to stale for me to think that decreasing the power level would make it more diverse. It's just different. In my experience, the higher-powered cubes allow for more options as the cards are much more dynamic and used for a reason, but there's nothing wrong or even not-fun about a lower powered cube. Hummers, corvettes, ducatis, back-hoes...all fun to ride and use, but all different.
It depends where you draw the line with lowering the power level. There's always going to be a "best card" in any pack, but some cards in a powered cube are just so astronomically better than anything else in the pack that your choice is pretty much made for you. When most cards are on more or less the same level, you can actually pick that card you really want to play and not feel too bad about passing up the one that may be technically slightly better.
Others will draw that line differently, but I've found that most of the archetype defining cards that people typically think of being powered level cards like Recurring Nightmare, Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Entomb, Tinker, etc work just fine in a high-power unpowered environment. It's usually just the generically powerful on their own cards like Moxen, True-Name Nemesis, and Umezawa's Jitte that are too backbreaking for the format to handle and still be fun (for us). You can simply cut out the few cards like those that are miles ahead of the rest and still keep the archetype cards above just fine.
Seriously, guys, I'm not knocking your cubes. I have nothing against the traditional cube format: I've played it, and really enjoyed it. I'm not interested in a debate over which kind of cube is the best. The point is making an alternate cube, not discussing whether or not the traditional cube has value (which it definitely does). The traditional cube is great, but there are those interested in an alternative way of building. The hope is that this thread could serve as a resource for those interested in building such cubes.
That may be a daunting proposition, since the traditional cube is limited to the objectively best cards, whereas the alternate cube has only the limitations imposed by its creators, nevertheless, I think that there deserves to be a thread dedicated to the issues of constructing such a cube. If you are looking to balance out parts of your budget cubes, or if you are working towards untraditional choices, or if you are trying to make a novelty-cube into a more stable environment, or if you are looking to have a secondary cube without having to play bad cards, this is the place to voice your thoughts, ideas, and problems.
Generally, it's the cards that are good for no reason that fail to serve the format. True-Name Nemesis is a perfect example of a card that is good, but pretty non-synergistic. However, if blue aggro is something you want to encourage, it's an excellent choice.
Some thoughts on cohesion:
A lot of people look to flavor or thematic choices to create cohesion in their rogue cubes. I prefer to look purely mechanically for all decisions to feel out what will play best in-game. Flavor decisions can easily lead to a very imbalanced format that is more fun to describe than to play (flavor-building is fine, but it's not my style). Ideally each card fits easily into at least two or three different decks for synergistic reasons. Other cards are simply Goodstuff, or sideboard material that is necessary to balance the game. Goodstuff should be kept to a manageable level, as there are plenty of cards begging for synergy. Vampire Nighthawk is an example of a card that is just plain Goodstuff, whereas Kitchen Finks is likewise very powerful, but has more synergistic possibilities (Sacrifice shenanigans, etc.). That is not to say, however that Nighthawk should be cut from every cube: it does a job very well, and if black is in need of a utility creature, it is hard to do better.
For mechanical synergy, the broader strategy the easier it is to build for. What I mean by that is that it's much easier to work with something like a graveyard theme than something like Processors: there are cards throughout Magic history that work well with a graveyard theme, but only a handful of cards that reward you for exiling cards. Including a graveyard theme is easy, whereas you have to force a Processor theme, or any other theme limited to a single block. That doesn't mean that such mechanics should necessarily be left out: something like a Processor, or Madness theme can easily be worked in, and make for a rich environment, but such decisions must be made judiciously. For that reason, things like Populate and Proliferate work favorably because the synergies are easy to include.
A note about tribes: tribal themes are something people love to do in rogue cubes, but that can be dangerous: in order to make a tribal theme worthwhile, you have to radically alter the make-up of your cube to fit in enough pay-off cards, as well as random cards with the right tribe. Some tribes are easy to sneak in: Slivers can go in almost any cube, as they are a five color tribe, and each one acts as a pay-off card for playing the others. Elves are easy too, mostly because there are so many of them that are great even without their types. Nevertheless, a tribal theme should be considered a major mechanical decision for a cube.
I think the problem with trying to make a single comprehensive resource for lower power level cubes is that there's so much variety and room for disagreement about the appropriate power level that it's hard to have a useful starting point, although this has been tried before on this forum. Because your lower powered cube could be almost anything, you're more likely to get the help you want just posting about your cube on the Cube Lists thread where you can post your specific design list. Ravnic's Casual Cube and Pet Snake's Jank Cube are great examples of this. You can then link to your cube thread in your sig and when you ask questions about specific cards and archetypes people can refer back to your cube list for context. While there tends to be broad agreement here about high power level as a design goal, people here are certainly willing to help you out if that's not what you want, you'll just need to be clear about what your needs are.
If you can't get the help you want here, you should probably also check out the Riptide Lab forums where they have a lot more discussion of lower powered cube and cube cards than we have here.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I agree with you, and I have to disagree with wtwlf here. Yes it's indeed not great to play with cube full of Razor Boomerang and Eager Cadet, but I also don't think fun and powerlevel are propotional to each other.
I like the traditional cubes, and it's really fun to play a nice Recurring Nightmare deck or something, but is True-Name Nemesis really enjoyable to play with and angainst? Wouldn't a card like Tandem Lookout lead to more interesting interactions, decisions and gamestats? A turn two Eldrazi from Channel might be fun once, but in the long run I'd rather have my ramp decks to have the time and Overrun my opponents with my Sprout Swarm.
This is why a friend and I decided to create a fair cube, good and flexible cards, but never broken and all in all a little durdlier. We also used the chance to give old pet cards like Thieving Magpie or Skyknight Legionnaire a home where they can till shine. It's also budegt friendly.
Balancing is rough sometimes, because you might also have to cut cards for being too good (for example Pack Rat was for us), and there aren't that many people who can give you advice here, because most run maxpower cubes. But it really is fun, our playgroup is growing and were getting a great resonance.
After all cube is the only format, where you're not forced to play the best possible option in some way, so just do whatever you want with your own meta.
I absolutely understand where you are coming from. Prepare yourself for condescending comments from the "maxpower is the only way!!" players. They seem to think that there is only one way to play, which just so happens to be their way.
Prepare yourself for condescending comments from the "maxpower is the only way!!" players. They seem to think that there is only one way to play, which just so happens to be their way.
Prepare to be disappointed when nobody responds in a condescending way at all, since the "maxpower" players all feel the same way that you do.
It's your cube, do whatever makes you and your playgroup happy.
You do realize that historically, cube designers deviating from traditional cube designs have been the ones that are more condescending? Like, the opinion that you have to choose between powerful cards or a fun environment is a complete fallacy, and when someone that enjoys powered cube drafting tries to explain that using powerful cards is fun for them, they get told they're wrong? The "nerfmax" players pulling the victim card is getting really old, and recently they've turned to manufacturing persecution out of thin air when there isn't any legit hostility to be had. It's kinda sad, actually.
The hate is because of the way you talk down about a lot of cards that you yourself don't run. In such a matter of factly tone, as if your opinion is law on these forums or something.
This is only my impression, but surely I can't be alone?
My word is not law, and it never has been. I render an opinion on a card, and I do it without adding the ten-thousand caveats and exceptions that can change the value of how a card plays for different playgroups. It sounds matter-of-fact because it is simply sharing my experiences, and there's no fluff required. It's never been personal, it's never been intended to be insulting. So don't take it that way.
Where the problem comes in, is in when people can't deal with someone disagreeing with them. You run card X, and I share my opinion on it. If I don't like the card, you get offended by that. Oh well. I can't change my play experience with the card just because you want me to like it. I think people are too thin-skinned around here, and simply because I disagree with them about a card evaluation, they have to chalk it up to "powermax" philosophy (which is a complete load of crap, btw) and manifest some sort of tyranny taking place on the boards, when neither of which is true. Someone disagrees with you, and you can't deal with it.
When someone disagrees with me, I can discuss the merits of the card, explain why it performs for us, and everyone can move on. But when I disagree with someone else, they automatically assume that they're being persecuted by the tyrannical wtwlf! It's a double-standard, and it's crap.
My entire cube philosophy revolves around creating an environment that caters to the playgroup that uses it. But when it comes to evaluating cards for an environment similar to my own, I can (and do) share my experiences and card evaluations. Some of them are quick and to the point. Don't misinterpret them as curt/rude when all they're intended to be is succinct.
Happy cubing to all cubers, even those that I have philosophical differences with.
I agree with wtwlf123 on this one. It's just not reasonable to expect people to discuss the merits of cards based on anything other than power level and synergy.
When discussing Angel of Glory's Rise we wouldn't expect people to say "Angel of Glory's Rise is a really good card, because it has a lot of fun factor, and might fit the theme of your cube if you like Angels, but especially if you have a zombie and human theme. Also, Elesh Norn is very powerful, so you might also want to replace Elesh Norn with the angel if you think you want to bring the power down. Also, the fact that the Angel has flying might mean that it's better than Elesh Norn in a cube with few flying creatures."
As an aside, I have two cubes. One is unpowered, but apart from that, I run the most powerful cards possible. The other one is a classic cube (all old border). One of the reasons I made the classic cube is because I hated when my favourite old cards became not good enough in the regular cube. Now, I can play Blastoderm, Juzam Djinn etc. to my heart's content.
Disagreement happens all the time, it's normal. The difference is that it can be done without always being so adversarial. If your tone can be perceived as rude or off putting, it will likely be taken that way. The reasons why don't really matter.
Well, there's never any hostility coming from my side. Sorry it's perceived that way. Like I said, posts are intended to be succinct, not curt.
Take this thread for example. There wasn't a single thing said anywhere in this thread that was condescending or confrontational by anyone on either side. Then someone chimed in warning posters to "prepare for the 'powermax' players to chime in, tell you you're wrong and that their way is the only way" ...except that didn't happen (and doesn't happen). So the condescending tones, thread derailings and dismissive attitudes aren't coming from the powermax players at all. They're being generated by a small minority of the alternative cube designers, and propping up some sort of boogeyman to attack that doesn't actually exist.
You can blame it on my curt responses if you want, but there's a disproportionate over-reaction that's been happening on and off by a select few folks for a long time now.
And I agree that disagreement can be handled without being adversarial. But the "powermax" players (myself included, I guess, even though that is a wildly inaccurate title) aren't the ones creating the adversity.
Well with that select few (that choose to speak up) there is always one common denominator. I'm just pointing out the reasons for the alienation, do with it what you will.
My question for you White Wolf One Hundred and Twenty-Three and Juju, is why come into a thread about playing at lesser power levels just to say "I only play maxpower. Don't play lover power levels." Here is an idea, if you don't want to help cultivate different power levels, go back to threads that interest you. And don't pretend that you aren't condescending. Because you are. If you weren't then people wouldn't be telling you that you are. Your list is the first one I refer to when I want to look at a power cube list. Why can't that be enough for you? Is it, as you say in your own words, that people are disagreeing with you and you cant deal with it? It's funny, it's always the guy who points out the fart that usually farted. You cry about people becoming defensive when you disagree with them, yet there you are, crying because someone doesnt agree with you. Now, if you dont want to help cultivate lower power levels, then don't. But stay the hell out of the conversations because all you do is derail threads by repeatedly proclaiming, "My group only plays maxpower, and dont you dare say I'm being condescending because I'm totally giving your ideas a fair chance." You want to help? What five red rares should I run if I'm only going to run five rares in each color at 540?
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By building a cube, you construct a unique limited environment with thousands of cards to build from, and I think it's a shame that so many cubes are built of the same few "best cards ever".
With access to cards from ranging in power from Celestial Prism to Sol Ring, and from Mindless Null to Grave Titan, the question becomes "At what power level are there the most fun cards to chose from?"
I find I like to play "the second best cards ever", playing things like Counterspell and Unburial Rites, but not things like Force of Will and Recurring Nightmare (pretending money is no obstacle, as I am open to proxies).
Various limited environments have shown that it's not raw power level that makes a fun environment, it's rich and deep interactions. I'm also interested in building a low power-level cube, but if it's just a bunch of random bad cards without cohesion, it won't be fun. Therein lies the challenge.
Have you guys performed experiments into engineering an ideal power level for your limited format? What have you found?
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I agree that one of the fun parts of limited play is using the cards you have to the most potential. This means playing cards that are sub-par. For a cube environment to function you have to think of larger synergies. I would be interested to learn how you craft your cube. If you consider using less powered cards, the number of playable cards goes way up. I can see this allowing for some really interesting design space.
Good luck
The key isn't overall power level; it's balance. My working definition of balance is I want each color and each color pair to be roughly equal in power. I also want balance in strategy, with control, midrange, and aggro all playable with combo/niche decks possible as well. Finally, I want each color/color pair to be fun to play.
All that said, I run a cube that overlaps 90% with most unpowered cubes. I cut the usual offenders, power, Sol Ring, Mind Twist, but also a few other people run like Treachery, and I cut down on the 5+ mana creatures in blue. I found blue control to be too good, and Gx midrange having a hard time keeping up. Dropping a good 4-5 drop and then having it Treachery'd was emblematic of why. Generally speaking though, I think what you see as lack of creativity is actually refinement. Everyone is out there tuning their cube to their group, refining what the standard cube is, like we are all working on creating the greatest reprint set of all time. It's basically a crowd-sourced set designed with only limited in mind.
I do have a few ideas for how to make lower-powered cubes that are fun though. Part of the thrill of Magic is feeling powerful. This is the way of the Timmy, and cube definitely scratches that itch. However, you can do that with powerful synergies too. The most beloved limited environments usually let you be clever and assemble things in new ways. I've thought about making a new cube using one of the following ideas:
I looked at the Desert Cube, and it seems awesome. There are clearly a lot of synergistic choices going on, and it gives under-appreciated things like Trench Wurm and Desert a chance to shine. But the balance is not quite there: the cube is heavily skewed towards red for one thing, and I'd imagine it's only so long before all the self-punishment gets tedious. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for, though, and it has a lot of clever ideas.
My main cube was built rather unscientifically of basically all of my and my sister's favorite cards (such that the colors were all represented equally, and general strategic bases were all covered). That was years ago, and since then, we've pretty much added good and synergistic cards, and cut mediocre and nonsynergistic cards to fine-tune it, occasionally dissecting it to realign the colors. The end result is a cube of around 1000 cards, and I've found that I prefer drafting it over my friend's 400-something powered cube, and another friend's 500-something unpowered cube, mostly because the format is so diverse. My cube is fun, and I'd recommend that style of building one out of spare cards, but I've been looking to make another cube in a slightly more methodical way.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
The lowest powered cubes are neat, but end up a novelty pretty quickly. But there are enough cards throughout magic's history that are good enough but not good enough for a powered/unpowered cube that can definitely bring a new angle to what you're trying to do.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
The idea is to find where the cards you want to play in your cube fall on the power spectrum, and to build a healthy environment around that. It's like a habitat: when excessively predatory cards are removed, other more exotic things are able to flourish. Then again, There will always be dominant cards, and they shouldn't be cut simply for being good. The idea is not to cut all your favorite cards from your cubes, but to be able to add more of them.
Here's a loose ranking system for how cards play in a limited environment. By the numbers, most cards fall in tier 3 or 4. The standard powered or unpowered cube uses cards from tier 1 and 2. My interest falls mostly between tiers 2 and 3.
Each tier has a card in each of seven common categories (aggressive white 3 drops, colorless ramp/reanimate targets, wraths, etc.)
Tier 1 (Best)
Tier 2 (Great)
Tier 3 (Good)
Tier 4 (Normal/Bulk)
Tier 5 (Bad)
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
People enjoy playing with powerful and iconic cards. Contrary to what ravnic says, there is a correlation between power level and fun for a lot of people. it's not 1 : 1, but there is a reason that my cube is the most popular in the area when compared to other cubes that have gimmicks/themes or a lower power level. People love to open powerful cards and are excited to draft them.
Juju Alters - Altered MTG Cards
Like I said, I love it when folks are creative and nostalgic in their cube designing, but there is something to be said with meeting folks half way with recognizable strategies and card inclusions.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
Yes, and those two concepts are not mutually exclusive. For a lot of Magic players, there's a strong correlation between the two. And believe it or not:
This is what I've fund to be the case. Not only with my regular playgroup that makes up my "core" of players, but 90+% of all my guest drafters are motivated to play cube because of the excitement of cracking and playing with powerful, iconic cards. There's the occasional EDH ringer that rolls their eyes when an opponent resolves a Mox against them, but they've certainly been in a small majority over the ~10 years of drafting my cube.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
This is where you lose me as I think standard unpowered and powered cubes are some of the most diverse magic experiences I've had. Every draft we do with the powered and unpowered cubes always leads to new interaction or ideas for what you could do and make.
Lower powered cubes are still a *lot* of fun, but regular cube is no where close to stale for me to think that decreasing the power level would make it more diverse. It's just different. In my experience, the higher-powered cubes allow for more options as the cards are much more dynamic and used for a reason, but there's nothing wrong or even not-fun about a lower powered cube. Hummers, corvettes, ducatis, back-hoes...all fun to ride and use, but all different.
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Others will draw that line differently, but I've found that most of the archetype defining cards that people typically think of being powered level cards like Recurring Nightmare, Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Entomb, Tinker, etc work just fine in a high-power unpowered environment. It's usually just the generically powerful on their own cards like Moxen, True-Name Nemesis, and Umezawa's Jitte that are too backbreaking for the format to handle and still be fun (for us). You can simply cut out the few cards like those that are miles ahead of the rest and still keep the archetype cards above just fine.
That may be a daunting proposition, since the traditional cube is limited to the objectively best cards, whereas the alternate cube has only the limitations imposed by its creators, nevertheless, I think that there deserves to be a thread dedicated to the issues of constructing such a cube. If you are looking to balance out parts of your budget cubes, or if you are working towards untraditional choices, or if you are trying to make a novelty-cube into a more stable environment, or if you are looking to have a secondary cube without having to play bad cards, this is the place to voice your thoughts, ideas, and problems.
Generally, it's the cards that are good for no reason that fail to serve the format. True-Name Nemesis is a perfect example of a card that is good, but pretty non-synergistic. However, if blue aggro is something you want to encourage, it's an excellent choice.
Some thoughts on cohesion:
A lot of people look to flavor or thematic choices to create cohesion in their rogue cubes. I prefer to look purely mechanically for all decisions to feel out what will play best in-game. Flavor decisions can easily lead to a very imbalanced format that is more fun to describe than to play (flavor-building is fine, but it's not my style). Ideally each card fits easily into at least two or three different decks for synergistic reasons. Other cards are simply Goodstuff, or sideboard material that is necessary to balance the game. Goodstuff should be kept to a manageable level, as there are plenty of cards begging for synergy. Vampire Nighthawk is an example of a card that is just plain Goodstuff, whereas Kitchen Finks is likewise very powerful, but has more synergistic possibilities (Sacrifice shenanigans, etc.). That is not to say, however that Nighthawk should be cut from every cube: it does a job very well, and if black is in need of a utility creature, it is hard to do better.
For mechanical synergy, the broader strategy the easier it is to build for. What I mean by that is that it's much easier to work with something like a graveyard theme than something like Processors: there are cards throughout Magic history that work well with a graveyard theme, but only a handful of cards that reward you for exiling cards. Including a graveyard theme is easy, whereas you have to force a Processor theme, or any other theme limited to a single block. That doesn't mean that such mechanics should necessarily be left out: something like a Processor, or Madness theme can easily be worked in, and make for a rich environment, but such decisions must be made judiciously. For that reason, things like Populate and Proliferate work favorably because the synergies are easy to include.
A note about tribes: tribal themes are something people love to do in rogue cubes, but that can be dangerous: in order to make a tribal theme worthwhile, you have to radically alter the make-up of your cube to fit in enough pay-off cards, as well as random cards with the right tribe. Some tribes are easy to sneak in: Slivers can go in almost any cube, as they are a five color tribe, and each one acts as a pay-off card for playing the others. Elves are easy too, mostly because there are so many of them that are great even without their types. Nevertheless, a tribal theme should be considered a major mechanical decision for a cube.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
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Some resources on these forums you might find helpful if you're trying to go deep on archetypes at a lower power level are the Comprehensive List of Cube Archetypes and also the Comprehensive Peasant Archetypes Article from the Pauper and Peasant subforum.
If you can't get the help you want here, you should probably also check out the Riptide Lab forums where they have a lot more discussion of lower powered cube and cube cards than we have here.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I absolutely understand where you are coming from. Prepare yourself for condescending comments from the "maxpower is the only way!!" players. They seem to think that there is only one way to play, which just so happens to be their way.
Prepare to be disappointed when nobody responds in a condescending way at all, since the "maxpower" players all feel the same way that you do.
It's your cube, do whatever makes you and your playgroup happy.
You do realize that historically, cube designers deviating from traditional cube designs have been the ones that are more condescending? Like, the opinion that you have to choose between powerful cards or a fun environment is a complete fallacy, and when someone that enjoys powered cube drafting tries to explain that using powerful cards is fun for them, they get told they're wrong? The "nerfmax" players pulling the victim card is getting really old, and recently they've turned to manufacturing persecution out of thin air when there isn't any legit hostility to be had. It's kinda sad, actually.
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This is only my impression, but surely I can't be alone?
Where the problem comes in, is in when people can't deal with someone disagreeing with them. You run card X, and I share my opinion on it. If I don't like the card, you get offended by that. Oh well. I can't change my play experience with the card just because you want me to like it. I think people are too thin-skinned around here, and simply because I disagree with them about a card evaluation, they have to chalk it up to "powermax" philosophy (which is a complete load of crap, btw) and manifest some sort of tyranny taking place on the boards, when neither of which is true. Someone disagrees with you, and you can't deal with it.
When someone disagrees with me, I can discuss the merits of the card, explain why it performs for us, and everyone can move on. But when I disagree with someone else, they automatically assume that they're being persecuted by the tyrannical wtwlf! It's a double-standard, and it's crap.
My entire cube philosophy revolves around creating an environment that caters to the playgroup that uses it. But when it comes to evaluating cards for an environment similar to my own, I can (and do) share my experiences and card evaluations. Some of them are quick and to the point. Don't misinterpret them as curt/rude when all they're intended to be is succinct.
Happy cubing to all cubers, even those that I have philosophical differences with.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
When discussing Angel of Glory's Rise we wouldn't expect people to say "Angel of Glory's Rise is a really good card, because it has a lot of fun factor, and might fit the theme of your cube if you like Angels, but especially if you have a zombie and human theme. Also, Elesh Norn is very powerful, so you might also want to replace Elesh Norn with the angel if you think you want to bring the power down. Also, the fact that the Angel has flying might mean that it's better than Elesh Norn in a cube with few flying creatures."
As an aside, I have two cubes. One is unpowered, but apart from that, I run the most powerful cards possible. The other one is a classic cube (all old border). One of the reasons I made the classic cube is because I hated when my favourite old cards became not good enough in the regular cube. Now, I can play Blastoderm, Juzam Djinn etc. to my heart's content.
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Take this thread for example. There wasn't a single thing said anywhere in this thread that was condescending or confrontational by anyone on either side. Then someone chimed in warning posters to "prepare for the 'powermax' players to chime in, tell you you're wrong and that their way is the only way" ...except that didn't happen (and doesn't happen). So the condescending tones, thread derailings and dismissive attitudes aren't coming from the powermax players at all. They're being generated by a small minority of the alternative cube designers, and propping up some sort of boogeyman to attack that doesn't actually exist.
You can blame it on my curt responses if you want, but there's a disproportionate over-reaction that's been happening on and off by a select few folks for a long time now.
And I agree that disagreement can be handled without being adversarial. But the "powermax" players (myself included, I guess, even though that is a wildly inaccurate title) aren't the ones creating the adversity.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!