I think it is the same person/people who organises the power rankings every year, it is usually quite a big project and takes a lot of organisation. Could be the Mods don't want a second, more general survey thread. I wouldn't take it personally.
Thank you guys. I totally understand. They look like a lot of work. They were super helpful when I was looking for cards to consider for my first cube.
I was just curious to see how they might have changed since 2016. Are their rankings for last year? Sorry for all the questions. I am new to the forum, and I was just curious.
We last did them in fall of 2016, and it was awesome for me because that's when my cube really started going from 'cards I own' to something more cultivated. I was thinking about how nice it'd be to have an update, but it's a ton of work. And realistically, if there is an update, it should come after we get a chance to play with the next set's cards for a while. Ravnica Allegiance might just give Simic, Gruul, Rakdos, or Orhov some sweet new additions, and really, the multicolor part of the rankings feels like the most important to me.
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Has it been 2 years since the last? Scary, doesn't feel that long ago.
I agree 100% with MikePemulis, the power rankings really gives you some good pointers on having a more cultivated list. Between the power rankings and the budget cube staples list my cube got a whole bunch better.
I'd be willing to co-organize it or to help. I don't want to be solely responsible, though. I agree we should wait until after the next set to get those juicy guild cards.
I'd like to have another Project Rank Everything. We haven't done one of those in a VERY long time. It'd be nice to see what the top X cards of each casting cost are today.
I helped analyze the data last time we did power rankings, and it does take a lot of time. It could be faster if people were more careful in how they ranked the cards (typos, extra commas, different ways of numbering things etc), but last time I remember having to edit data by hand into spreadsheets and it took a lot more time than you think it would. If it happened again I would try and vote, But I don't have the time right now to help analyze the data. I also think this forum has shrunken a lot since then (or a lot of people are just currently lurking and not directly active right now).
I agree on waiting until after the new allegiance set. If guilds was any indication, there will be several cube-able cards in the new set. Both my pauper cube, and my eternal cube saw a lot of changes, but the rankings are so helpful, and really help me reevaluate my cube.
Maybe a online tool like survey monkey, could make sorting the ranks easier.
How would a vote or survey tool work for this? If every one is listing their top 20 for each color, how would you organize that so it worked properly in a vote or survey? I would just put in a hard rule that typos negate your vote and post reminders to people who have typos in their list.
I also agree that forum participation here has been on the downswing over the past few years, so I'm not sure how many people you'd actually get to post a list for a project like this anymore.
Well, you would allow them to type their answers, then you could copy and paste them into word and sort them alphabetically... that would make counting them a lot easier even with typos.
I think it is the same person/people who organises the power rankings every year, it is usually quite a big project and takes a lot of organisation. Could be the Mods don't want a second, more general survey thread. I wouldn't take it personally.
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Not really. Silent Edge did the original surveys (2009, 2010, 2014 IIRC), I did the 2015 version, and Spike Rogue did it in 2016. As far as I can tell or remember, neither of us had anything to do with the other's versions, except for voting in them of course. Anyone can do it, and can copy as much as they want from what we did. Best of luck to whoever tries it.
Personally, I don't play cube enough those days to even try and vote, much less to try and organize anything like that.
We have a few months since we need time to see and thoroughly experience the RNA cards before people want to vote. Now would be a good time to compile and resolve the questions about what we want to do with cards with similar or identical effects, classification of certain cards, and I would like to propose not being able to see others rankings until we have final results. Too often multiple voters' lists appeared to nearly match the list of a couple individuals who vote early and perhaps carry a bit more weight/influence within the Mtgsalvation cubing community. I think blind voting is going to produce more interesting results and result in less lists with cards ranked in the exact same order. My main concern here is people may forget about a card that they may not personally run but certainly feel is top 20 in power rankings. Perhaps, a "card pool list" could be created with known contenders and this list would expand with new cards as rankings are submitted and cards are potentially named that aren't already on this list.
I could get on board with a blind vote. I don't think we'd need a card pool list. In my opinion, if a card is forgettable, it probably shouldn't make your list.
1) If they don't run a card, how could they know where they fit in the rankings? We want our rankings to align with actual observed experience. (No card list needed)
OR
2) Even if someone doesn't run a card, they generally know how good it is and how to rank it accordingly. The rankings can include how people would expect a card to perform/rank if they ran it. (I think a list is needed here as there are quite a few cards people may not run, but are recognized as top 20 level in power and its pretty easy to forget a few without a list).
I'm in camp 2, but I'd be open to seeing what results that rely upon our experience with no assumptions about card performance would reveal. Ultimately, I think this isn't the way to go though because of things like the Swords cycle. I don't run them, but I have an idea as to how they would perform and my not including them in the rankings would greatly distort the results. (Now..I'm not likely to forget a sword, but there are other top 20 cards in certain categories I could easily forget).
I think those situations would be dependent on the excluded card(s) and the reasons behind the exclusions. I don't think a list is needed, but I'd be on board to vote either way.
I will say that if you have a comprehensive predefined list of cards its saves a lot of time because you dont have to worry about typos or compiling the results.
People can just vote on as many cards as they care about by typing their numerical value (0 to 10 scale) in the row.
Also, the information content of the votes scales withthe square root of the number of voters assuming independence.
If some particular card just gets one 10.0 vote it shouldn't catapult to the top of the list.
This is where having a solid empirical, data based prior helps. Cards that receive a lot of votes can have their rating adjusted substantially from the numerical prior but cards that receive say only one vote should have very little adjustment.
This makes the whole process more robust to selection bias, memory bias and low sample count.
I really like a blind survey, to help prevent people copying others answers. Then we can just average the numbers. I have made a practice question below, can a couple of you take it, so I can see how practical it will be to sort the results.
So, it looks like it will be time consuming, but not that hard. Thanks to everyone who tried this. So, my strategy for doing this is to allow twenty entries for each color, 10 entries for each guild, and 10 non-dual land entries (I am curious what utility lands people play in cube). I was thinking about letting players list top shard cards, but I think we would have to do them all in one list.
A card would be assigned points based on where it ranks, and then its points average. so 20 for first place, 1 for 20th place. Any thoughts on this, and how long should we wait after allegiance to post the survey?
Why was my survey thread marked as spam? Not trying to be rude, just want to make sure I am adhering to the rules of the forum?
It looks like the forum did a survey of some kind in 2016:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/760253-power-rankings-2016-cube-power-rankings-blue
I found looking at it really helpful, and would be curious to see updated power-rankings/play rates of cards by color and guild.
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I was just curious to see how they might have changed since 2016. Are their rankings for last year? Sorry for all the questions. I am new to the forum, and I was just curious.
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I agree 100% with MikePemulis, the power rankings really gives you some good pointers on having a more cultivated list. Between the power rankings and the budget cube staples list my cube got a whole bunch better.
I'd be interested if someone is organising it.
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Maybe a online tool like survey monkey, could make sorting the ranks easier.
I also agree that forum participation here has been on the downswing over the past few years, so I'm not sure how many people you'd actually get to post a list for a project like this anymore.
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Not really. Silent Edge did the original surveys (2009, 2010, 2014 IIRC), I did the 2015 version, and Spike Rogue did it in 2016. As far as I can tell or remember, neither of us had anything to do with the other's versions, except for voting in them of course. Anyone can do it, and can copy as much as they want from what we did. Best of luck to whoever tries it.
Personally, I don't play cube enough those days to even try and vote, much less to try and organize anything like that.
Link is here:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/803301-cubetutor-power-rankings-2018-by-color-and-cmc
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2020 Numerical Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/817969-2020-numerical-cube-power-rankings
2018 CubeTutor Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/803301-cubetutor-power-rankings-2018-by-color-and-cmc
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1) If they don't run a card, how could they know where they fit in the rankings? We want our rankings to align with actual observed experience. (No card list needed)
OR
2) Even if someone doesn't run a card, they generally know how good it is and how to rank it accordingly. The rankings can include how people would expect a card to perform/rank if they ran it. (I think a list is needed here as there are quite a few cards people may not run, but are recognized as top 20 level in power and its pretty easy to forget a few without a list).
I'm in camp 2, but I'd be open to seeing what results that rely upon our experience with no assumptions about card performance would reveal. Ultimately, I think this isn't the way to go though because of things like the Swords cycle. I don't run them, but I have an idea as to how they would perform and my not including them in the rankings would greatly distort the results. (Now..I'm not likely to forget a sword, but there are other top 20 cards in certain categories I could easily forget).
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For example how many red cards were they able to vote for?
And
Did they get to order them 1-20?
For most categories, like the five single colors, you'd vote for 20 cards, and yes it was ranked 1-20.
For example, here's the thread with all the votes for White cards in 2016.
People can just vote on as many cards as they care about by typing their numerical value (0 to 10 scale) in the row.
Also, the information content of the votes scales withthe square root of the number of voters assuming independence.
If some particular card just gets one 10.0 vote it shouldn't catapult to the top of the list.
This is where having a solid empirical, data based prior helps. Cards that receive a lot of votes can have their rating adjusted substantially from the numerical prior but cards that receive say only one vote should have very little adjustment.
This makes the whole process more robust to selection bias, memory bias and low sample count.
360 card powered Chicago cube:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/e7r
2020 Numerical Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/817969-2020-numerical-cube-power-rankings
2018 CubeTutor Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/803301-cubetutor-power-rankings-2018-by-color-and-cmc
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/FTY8FFF
A card would be assigned points based on where it ranks, and then its points average. so 20 for first place, 1 for 20th place. Any thoughts on this, and how long should we wait after allegiance to post the survey?