Silent Departure has been great for me at the same casting cost as Sensory Deprivation. Narcolepsy is probably better than Claustrophobia. Mental Misstep has been very good for us. Stolen Identity is super fun in EDH, but I'd only play it if you already have Phyrexian Metamorph, and you're playing enough evasion to support the cipher. The Mistfolk, like Fleeting Image, really asks you to play it turn four, which is overpaying compared to other options. I have been wondering about Vesuvan Doppleganger myself. I have been playing it since I built my cube 5-6 years ago and holds some sentimental attachment by now. That said it's always a copy of the best creature on the board and unlike Vesuvan Shapeshifter it doesn'cost you extra mana to be so.
I agree here. Unless your sentimental card is JTMS, you should rid most of your pet cards. Majority of the time, it's those cards that hinder the evolution of cubes. I'm always fighting against it; just tell yourself no card is assured of staying indefinitely in cube.
If your cube is powered, why would you want to play some of these cards? Wouldn't these then wheel in the draft when people can take the better cards? I would understand if the cube wasn't powered.
We love Mental Misstep, although it takes a low curve in general to make it work. Can't comment on the other ones other than they appear rather underpowered.
If your cube is powered, why would you want to play some of these cards? Wouldn't these then wheel in the draft when people can take the better cards? I would understand if the cube wasn't powered.
What's a better creature copier than Vesuvan Doppelganger? I'm asking the same question essentially with all these cards to make sure I do have the best of each type of ability or creature for each spot, but could also see some of these being played on their own.
If your cube is powered, why would you want to play some of these cards? Wouldn't these then wheel in the draft when people can take the better cards? I would understand if the cube wasn't powered.
What's a better creature copier than Vesuvan Doppelganger (obviously there is clone and phyrexian metamorph and phantasmal image, but they can't change targets each turn for free)? I'm asking the same question essentially with all these cards to make sure I do have the best of each type of ability or creature for each spot, but could also see some of these being played on their own.
What wtwlf said. Also, other than the first two, other copiers aren't cubeworthy just by power level. But if you like them, run them. I also prefer Body Double, Spitting Image, and Progenitor Mimic to the original Vesuvan, even though Vesuvan is much cooler and has one of my favorite pieces of art in all of Magic. I adore the early Quinton Hoover stuff.
How is Vesuvan Shapeshifter better? It seems like the same exact card but costs 2 mana instead of being free to change the target.....
Phantasmal Image, Clone, and Phyrexian Metamorph are already in. Phantasmal Image is probably the weakest of the bunch.
It's better because you don't have to supply the 5 mana all at once. Making it easier to fit into the curve, and easier to cast and protect. Also, Morph shenanigans if that's relevant to your list. And you can do it for 4U instead of 3UU when it's relevant. Also, it makes decision-making for your opponent much harder. Edit: Also, their combat decisions on their turn are impacted by a face-down Shapeshifter, whereas if you simply play it on your turn, there's no hidden information, and they can attack and cast spells appropriately to compensate.
And Phantasmal Image is significantly better than Clone. Copying an ETB trigger alone is often worth the 2 mana, and a lot of the stuff that would target it would kill it anyways. It's arguably the strongest Clone effect out there, because getting it for 2 mana is bonkers. Metamorph is stronger in a list with a ton of broken expensive artifacts, but 2 mana is a super sick upside.
OP: start with the cube comparison result thread. Seriously take some time to look at and evaluate the cards on that list. Aft that, compare the cards you're on the fence about. This isn't to say you should just make a copy of the average cube, but you SHOULD be aware of what other people are running in place of the cards you're thinking about and have a very good reason for not doing what other cube designers (likely with much more cube building experience than you) have chosen to do.
OP: start with the cube comparison result thread. Seriously take some time to look at and evaluate the cards on that list. Aft that, compare the cards you're on the fence about. This isn't to say you should just make a copy of the average cube, but you SHOULD be aware of what other people are running in place of the cards you're thinking about and have a very good reason for not doing what other cube designers (likely with much more cube building experience than you) have chosen to do.
Trygon Predator and Electrolyze are both cube mainstays. I think Grim-Grin is cute if you have good sacrificial fodder in your cube (Gravecrawler, Bloodghast and Ophiomancer come to mind). Oversoul of Dusk seems oppressive. I'm not a fan of protection in general because it promotes non-interactive Magic games, and this guy has protection versus 3 colors, in addition to a restrictive mana cost. Mercurial Chemister was a bomb in RtR block limited, I imagine it's cute but less powerful in a typical cube. Brion Stoutarm is decent, but I personally run Firemane Avenger in it's place. I would run City of Traitors or Ancient Tomb as multiple-mana lands before I would run Scorched Ruins, since that card cuts hard into your colored manabase and land destruction kills you on the spot.
If I could have my whole cube with art by a single artist it would be early Quinton Hoover. Idiosyncratic art styles are what Magic really lacks these days. And Banding.
And Phantasmal Image is significantly better than Clone. Copying an ETB trigger alone is often worth the 2 mana, and a lot of the stuff that would target it would kill it anyways.
This is so true in Cube. Most targeted spells I run would be fatal irrespective of the illusion weakness, barring cheeky stuff like Rancor.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Looking at the cards you mention a couple things about card evaluation come to mind.
Some of the cards mentioned are good in your starting hand, but (pretty much) dead draws late game. Cards like this need to have a significant impact to be good in cube. Black Lotus is a weak top deck but it is sick in the early game. Skyshroud Ranger for instance is just not impactful enough in the part of the game where you are supposed to play it to include. This ties into cards that are not worth a card in your hand at all. Soltari Foot Soldier is rarely going to be better than a basic land even, because by itself it does so little.
For cards that do nothing but win the game, the bar is quite high in cube. Cards like Soulblast and Fury of the Horde are good ONLY if your opponent is at low life AND you need help to close the game out. Generally a deck that starts out winning (aggro) is better helped by cheap cards that help you kill faster (Black Vise, Sulfuric Vortex) or cards that keep the game in the low resource stage (Tangle Wire, Winter Orb, Sinkhole). Cards to help you win if you lost your ability to attack (like Soulblast can) are generally better off with less conditions attached to them. Boros Charm will win you a game where a board sweeper made Soulblast worthless.
A few of the cards you mention could be useful if and only if your cube 1: makes sure situations that make them good come up 2: don’t punish them too hard. Examples:
Scorched Ruins: SUPER risky land. Could be cool if you take out all land bounce, land destruction, and push land untapping or graveyard recursion. Way too risky for little upside otherwise.
Oversoul of Dusk: if you push devotion themes really hard this could end up doing something, otherwise this kind of mana is just unplayable.
Mind Funeral: it will do nothing if it doesn’t kill the opponent. It also doesn’t help your board state. Cards that kill from a stable board state are a dime a dozen, even ones that actually help you get to a stable board state in the first place. Mill generally needs to be supported as an archetype, or on a card with the ability to mill repeatedly (like Millstone) to be a win condition at all. Mind Funeral would need a theme like the one in Gatecrash, where cards like Wight of Precinct Six could use a partially milled opponent for profit.
In all, these examples have too many "if"s tied to them to be generally recommendable. If you really like them and want to play them, help them be good; they won't hold up in a more general environment.
Wow this got long but the cards you asked about really got me thinking.
That's a very good point with mind funeral and cards along the same lines that are really only beneficial given certain circumstances. I think for a lot of the remaining cards on the fence I may just have to play-test with them and see just how good or bad they are in my playgroup. It will be interesting and exciting to see what gets played and what is left for last pick junk. Razia's Purification for example seems like a worse version of Cataclysm but given the proper board setup it could be great for a RW aggro or midrange deck.
Thank you for the feedback and discussion, I am learning a lot about some new good cards and why certain cards may not work as anticipated.
Out of those, Trygon Predator is awesome and one of Simic's best cards. Electrolyze is decent and many cubes still run it, although we've gotten four better (IMO) Izzet cards lately (counting Dack Fayden). I don't think any of the rest are good enough for standard cubes.
Ruins is too much card disadvantage for the benefit.
Purification doesn't do enough for 6 mana in cube, especially for the gold section.
Chemister is slow and clunky, to say nothing of failing the Vindicate test.
Stoutarm is OK but has gotten outclassed; I used to run him in the early days of my cube.
Orzhov has way better cards than priest.
Jhoira is cool in EDH and casual, but she's mostly not going to do much in cube. The format is too fast for her to durdle around.
Oversoul would be great but that casting cost is hard core and it's probably the most competitive guild.
I'm not sure why any cube would want Grimgrin. It looks slow and unreliable to me, and it's in a guild that has a number of really great archetype-support cards.
Mind Funeral would only work if you really pushed mill as an archetype. Unless you win by milling, milling doesn't actually accomplish anything.
Nin - UR has a lot of things that would be included before this, especially with Dack Fayden on the way. Top picks include Ral Zarek and Steam Augury, and then there's a huge line of quality removal like Electrolyze, Fire//Ice, Turn//Burn, Izzet Charm, Prophetic Bolt, and even Jilt.
Mistmeadow Skulk - Most Cube removal is less than 3 mana, and a lot of those that cost more are mass removal and so will get rid of him anyways. Many cube creatures are less than three mana. Overall, the Protection is just too unreliable. Lifelink is alright, but the fact that you can't equip him with many of the best equipment due to the protection makes it pretty bad. Try Knight of Goldmeadow for a WW lifelink guy.
Iwamori - Green has gotten a lot of quality 4-drops recently, like Polukranos and Deadbridge Goliath. There's no reason to run a guy with a potentially large drawback just to get a 45/5 for 4.
Death Rattle - Black has a ton of better removal options before I'd consider this. The fact that it needs 5 cards to be exiled before it's better than a Doom Blade variant, and even then it's limited in its targets means I'm not enthused. Try Ghastly Demise for a similar effect.
Test Subject - Nah. Doesn't do anything until it flips, very expensive to flip
Pyrrhic Revival - Expensive and not all that great. If you want mass recursion, Living Death is the way to go. Twilight's Call is a better card than this too, but no one is ever knocking the door down for that.
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I guess a big issue is I don't want to run Planeswalkers (no one in my play group likes them, used to the days of Magic without their inclusion). As far as UR goes, that removes Dack Fayden and Ral Zarek and currently I'll just have Fire//Ice, Electrolyze, and Steam Augury. Just doesn't seem to be that much great UR available which is disappointing.
I have had great luck with Ludevic's Test Subject actually. Plays much better than it looks on paper. In control decks it blocks 2/2 early, and its a good mana sink when you've been keeping lands up for counter magic. Usually sits on the board as a looming threat. and when you're streatching the cost over multiple turns it is actually pretty ecomonical for a 13/13 trample.
I have had great luck with Ludevic's Test Subject actually. Plays much better than it looks on paper. In control decks it blocks 2/2 early, and its a good mana sink when you've been keeping lands up for counter magic. Usually sits on the board as a looming threat. and when you're streatching the cost over multiple turns it is actually pretty ecomonical for a 13/13 trample.
Yeah I might have to test that card out, definitely is my style and seems like it could be a serious threat within a few turns if not dealt with by the opponent!
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I agree here. Unless your sentimental card is JTMS, you should rid most of your pet cards. Majority of the time, it's those cards that hinder the evolution of cubes. I'm always fighting against it; just tell yourself no card is assured of staying indefinitely in cube.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
What's a better creature copier than Vesuvan Doppelganger? I'm asking the same question essentially with all these cards to make sure I do have the best of each type of ability or creature for each spot, but could also see some of these being played on their own.
Phantasmal Image, Phyrexian Metamorph and even Vesuvan Shapeshifter do a better job.
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How is Vesuvan Shapeshifter better? It seems like the same exact card but costs 2 mana instead of being free to change the target.....
Phantasmal Image, Clone, and Phyrexian Metamorph are already in. Phantasmal Image is probably the weakest of the bunch.
It's better because you don't have to supply the 5 mana all at once. Making it easier to fit into the curve, and easier to cast and protect. Also, Morph shenanigans if that's relevant to your list. And you can do it for 4U instead of 3UU when it's relevant. Also, it makes decision-making for your opponent much harder. Edit: Also, their combat decisions on their turn are impacted by a face-down Shapeshifter, whereas if you simply play it on your turn, there's no hidden information, and they can attack and cast spells appropriately to compensate.
And Phantasmal Image is significantly better than Clone. Copying an ETB trigger alone is often worth the 2 mana, and a lot of the stuff that would target it would kill it anyways. It's arguably the strongest Clone effect out there, because getting it for 2 mana is bonkers. Metamorph is stronger in a list with a ton of broken expensive artifacts, but 2 mana is a super sick upside.
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Agreed. I like it more than Clone and Vesuvan Doppelganger.
There's also that legendary clone creature that's halfway decent too ...can't remember its name off the top of my head.
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OP: start with the cube comparison result thread. Seriously take some time to look at and evaluate the cards on that list. Aft that, compare the cards you're on the fence about. This isn't to say you should just make a copy of the average cube, but you SHOULD be aware of what other people are running in place of the cards you're thinking about and have a very good reason for not doing what other cube designers (likely with much more cube building experience than you) have chosen to do.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
What about a card like Scorched Ruins, Razia's Purification, Mercurial Chemister, Brion Stoutarm, High Priest of Penance, Jhoira of the Ghitu, Trygon Predator, Electrolyze, Oversoul of Dusk, Grimgrin, Corpse-Born, and Mind Funeral?
Thank you for the feedback and discussion, I am learning a lot about some new good cards and why certain cards may not work as anticipated.
If I could have my whole cube with art by a single artist it would be early Quinton Hoover. Idiosyncratic art styles are what Magic really lacks these days. And Banding.
Should we be running Donate to pull of combos like this with Abyssal Persecutor?
This is so true in Cube. Most targeted spells I run would be fatal irrespective of the illusion weakness, barring cheeky stuff like Rancor.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
That's a very good point with mind funeral and cards along the same lines that are really only beneficial given certain circumstances. I think for a lot of the remaining cards on the fence I may just have to play-test with them and see just how good or bad they are in my playgroup. It will be interesting and exciting to see what gets played and what is left for last pick junk. Razia's Purification for example seems like a worse version of Cataclysm but given the proper board setup it could be great for a RW aggro or midrange deck.
Out of those, Trygon Predator is awesome and one of Simic's best cards. Electrolyze is decent and many cubes still run it, although we've gotten four better (IMO) Izzet cards lately (counting Dack Fayden). I don't think any of the rest are good enough for standard cubes.
Ruins is too much card disadvantage for the benefit.
Purification doesn't do enough for 6 mana in cube, especially for the gold section.
Chemister is slow and clunky, to say nothing of failing the Vindicate test.
Stoutarm is OK but has gotten outclassed; I used to run him in the early days of my cube.
Orzhov has way better cards than priest.
Jhoira is cool in EDH and casual, but she's mostly not going to do much in cube. The format is too fast for her to durdle around.
Oversoul would be great but that casting cost is hard core and it's probably the most competitive guild.
I'm not sure why any cube would want Grimgrin. It looks slow and unreliable to me, and it's in a guild that has a number of really great archetype-support cards.
Mind Funeral would only work if you really pushed mill as an archetype. Unless you win by milling, milling doesn't actually accomplish anything.
Hope that helps.
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Nin - UR has a lot of things that would be included before this, especially with Dack Fayden on the way. Top picks include Ral Zarek and Steam Augury, and then there's a huge line of quality removal like Electrolyze, Fire//Ice, Turn//Burn, Izzet Charm, Prophetic Bolt, and even Jilt.
Mistmeadow Skulk - Most Cube removal is less than 3 mana, and a lot of those that cost more are mass removal and so will get rid of him anyways. Many cube creatures are less than three mana. Overall, the Protection is just too unreliable. Lifelink is alright, but the fact that you can't equip him with many of the best equipment due to the protection makes it pretty bad. Try Knight of Goldmeadow for a WW lifelink guy.
Iwamori - Green has gotten a lot of quality 4-drops recently, like Polukranos and Deadbridge Goliath. There's no reason to run a guy with a potentially large drawback just to get a 45/5 for 4.
Death Rattle - Black has a ton of better removal options before I'd consider this. The fact that it needs 5 cards to be exiled before it's better than a Doom Blade variant, and even then it's limited in its targets means I'm not enthused. Try Ghastly Demise for a similar effect.
Test Subject - Nah. Doesn't do anything until it flips, very expensive to flip
Pyrrhic Revival - Expensive and not all that great. If you want mass recursion, Living Death is the way to go. Twilight's Call is a better card than this too, but no one is ever knocking the door down for that.
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Yeah I might have to test that card out, definitely is my style and seems like it could be a serious threat within a few turns if not dealt with by the opponent!