A full list of results, with all cards that received votes, can be found on this google spreadsheet.
Thanks to all 23 voters!
willdice, cuttups, Cythare, wtwlf123, Metamind, hardb0dy, Ennex, Griseldaddy, Zetsu_Sensei, LucidVision, Calibretto, Salmo, hopefulhawkeye, TheAngryHermit, Truesight, TheSloth, TheRift88, pillar15, artbcnco, Star Slayer, rantipole, Hicham, SunBurst
Trivia
* Just missed: Tarmogoyf (2.7), Plow Under (2.6), Green Sun's Zenith (2.6), and Song of the Dryads (2.5)
* Survival of the Fittest and Sylvan Library repeat their first and second places. Natural Order manages to get tied with Eternal Witness at 3rd.
* Noble Hierarch, former #8, got moved to the SHARDS group, where she intends to get an even better position among the Bant cards.
* Rise and Fall: #18 Den Protector and #20 Nissa, Worldwaker are the green new cards to reach a spot on the ranking, but another kind of newcomer got way better this time - Fauna Shaman lands a #11 after being out of the 2014 Top 20. Eureka got more popular this year, rising 7 positions (#17 to #10), with Regrowth rising 6 (#19 to #13). The ones to leave the ranking are former #13 Tarmogoyf, #15 Plow Under and #20 Thrun, the Last Troll, while Lotus Cobra falls 5 positions (#9 to #14).
* 49 different cards received votes.
Green didn't change as much as Red did, but it did had some very relevant shifts in position.
Green's got an overall improvement on the "cheating things into play" theme - Natural Order actually would have been the only 3rd place by itself if it wasn't the very last vote causing the tie; Eureka went from the low end to the middle of the ranking, Tooth and Nail entered the ranking at #19, and Oath of the Druids was effectively #25 - I expect it gets enough votes next year to get in the ranking too.
I'm also totally in favor of Fauna Shaman's new position in the ranking. And Tarmogoy is just a cheap beater in a color with cool shenanigans you can pick instead.
Fatty cheating cards age getting more popular, so these new rankings make a lot of sense. The only thing that looks off to me is Plow Under being gone. I think it's a mistake to have that card out of the top 10, better yet off the chart completely.
Fatty cheating cards age getting more popular, so these new rankings make a lot of sense. The only thing that looks off to me is Plow Under being gone. I think it's a mistake to have that card out of the top 10, better yet off the chart completely.
Only 8 people out of 23 voted on Plow Under. Three (you, rantipole and SunBurst) put it at #8 or #9. The other 5 votes were #14-#20. It is surprising it ended as #22 overall with so many no-votes.
It's dead about the same percentage of time as Armageddon. Less so, maybe, because it's better than 'Geddon on board parity, and the effect is asymmetrical, and can resolve faster with ramp. And it closes out games almost as effectively (sometimes more so). It costs 1 more mana, but the card is utterly disgusting. Not ranking it in the top 10 is likely a mistake. Not having it in the top 20 seems very wrong to me. Not cubing with it at all? That seems silly.
Quote from hopefulhawkeye »
Plow Under can be a dead card in a lot of situations.
I'm not really comfortable running a card with a do-nothing floor much longer.
This seems like a really illogical conclusion to come to. There is a HUGE number of insane cube bombs that are dead/bad/useless in certain situations. Better cut that Black Lotus, Mind Twist, Armageddon, Balance, Sol Ring, Equipment, Wraths ...basically every single card that runs the risk of not advancing your board position ...because they all have the potential to be "dead" cards when certain situations arise.
..........
Tooth and Nail is an awesome card, and I recommend cubing with it. But certainly not at the cost of Plow Under, and definitely not based on the fact that it's a dead card sometimes.
You can try Primal Command. I made that swap awhile ago and I'm pretty happy with it. It's half a plow (with more targets) and one quarter of a tooth and nail (minus the combo unfortunately so not really a replacement). But it's both in one card, and it can gain you life if you need it. And it can recycle your graveyard (prevent decking and/or put your NO target back in the deck), or it can be used to hose a GY strategy.
Clearly the BCS for plow under is a lot higher, but I'm all about flexible cards.
I'm totally with wtwlf on Plow Under. It definitely should be a top 20 card. I mean Thragtusk, Tooth and Nail, Nissa, and Den Protector are great and all, but I'd pick Plow Under over them every single time. It usually just puts the game away.
That just surprises me, I guess. Considering that Plow Under shouldn't be dead any more often than Armageddon, assuming you're playing both cards in appropriate shells for the effects. I could see Plow Under running into consistency issues if it's being played in decks that aren't ideally suited to take advantage of the effect; same for Armageddon when it's in the wrong deck. But in the right decks, they should be equally narrow and equally powerful. Armageddon probably even more narrow (even in the correct shell) because it has less value at board parity, less value in topdeck mode, can't be ramped into, and is more vulnerable to being blanked by the opponent's nonland mana sources than Plow Under is. I believe you that your experience hasn't been as stellar as mine; I just can't figure out why ...other than potentially playing Plow Under in out-of-character decks for it.
I too cut Plow Under for not being good enough this last year (or was it the year before?). More often than not I felt that just playing one of green's 5-drops had more of an effect on the game. I also noticed that it was cut in other 360-450 lists, including unpowered ones (which I would imagine would be an even better environment for a Plow Under), which leads me to believe that other groups are having similar results.
I see Armageddon/Ravages to be the best cards in white, being the absolute ideal curve toppers for aggro decks of all colours and they barely ever whiff. I'd put them in the same tier as Recurring Nightmare, Treachery and Vortex and if I ever saw them all P1P1 I wouldn't know which to take. I'm open to looking at an ideal Plow Under decklist though as getting another card of equal power excites me - I still have my foil in my on deck box so slotting it in will be ezpz.
I see Armageddon/Ravages to be the best cards in white, being the absolute ideal curve toppers for aggro decks of all colours and they barely ever whiff.
So do I. And Plow Under dead even less often than the 'Gedons are. Again, assuming you're putting both cards into decks that want them.
Quote from hardb0dy »
I too cut Plow Under for not being good enough this last year (or was it the year before?). More often than not I felt that just playing one of green's 5-drops had more of an effect on the game.
I'm stunned by this. There are a ton of cards in your list right now that I'd axe WELL before even looking at Plow Under as a cut, including other 5's that are were much worse for us at winning games than Plow Under is.
I found plow under to be quite a bit worse in powered cubes,
A great card, but not as effective with lots of artifact ramp in the cube that can break out of an early game plow under. It's also easier for your opponent to ramp out something powerful that you need to deal with , by creating a board presence.
I used to pick plow under super high when I first started cubing (unpowered modo cubes), but had many poor experiences with it in my own powered cube during its early incarnations. Could have been bad variance, but given plow under isn't very interesting or synergistic , decided to cut it.
I can't fault anyone for not running cards that don't work for them or their playgroup. I just had no idea that Plow Under even could be one of those kinds of cards. I've been cubing it consistently for 6+ years, and I can count on 1 hand the number of times it's failed to win games for us. It really has performed like a green 'Geddon; stronger in some cases and weaker in others, but in general, good in the same spots, and ends the game instantly. It has hands down been one of the most powerful spells in the entire cube without question. My playgroup and I are simply baffled that it could be anything less than that somehow.
Plow Under is bonkers. When I first made my Cube 5 years ago, some complained it was too good and was borderline unfun. Players have obviously come around on it, but the point is that the card is nuts. I would be happy first-picking Plow Under in a draft.
If anyone could kindly explain how to properly use Plow Under I'd greatly appreciate it! What types of decks want it? From what I gather it is an aggro curve topper like Armageddon/Ravages is... but I'm assuming it does much more. I mean, if the power is on the same level as Armageddon/Ravages it wouldn't be absent from people's lists, let alone their top 20s... so perhaps people just aren't playing it right. Help me understand, I'd hate to miss out on an awesome card.
There are a ton of cards in your list right now that I'd axe WELL before even looking at Plow Under as a cut, including other 5's that are were much worse for us at winning games than Plow Under is.
Of course, that's why you have Plow Under on your list and I don't. Perhaps once I grasp the awesomeness that is Plow Under, how it works--how to use it properly, I'll be able to make the right cut for it. I tune and tweak all the time but am generally very happy with my list.
We love Plow Under, but cut it a while ago. It didn't make maindeck too often. It works fine as an aggro curve topper, but only if your aggro deck is not too fast, otherwise 5 mana is just too slow. To me it is a great card in slower aggro decks and aggresive midrange decks that have some form of accelaration. If you run a land destruction package it is a staple of course.
But our aggro prefered four drops ( Garruks or white Armageddons)as curve toppers. A lot of midraneg decks were creature based (Survival, Birthing Pod, GSZ,...) and Plow Under not being a creature hurts the decks synergies. That and too many ramp decks had a cheating side (Eureka, Natural Order, Sneak Attack, Reanimation,...). This makes that Plow Under often lost out to creature five drops, even when in a vacuum it might be slightlly better then those cards.
I am surprised that Tooth and Nail is making a comeback, makes me think that maybe we should try it out again. I am also surprised that Sylvan Caryatid got so few votes. Here it is a crowd favorite, with quite a bit of people taking it over Birds because it defensive qualities.
I would say it's less of what the cards works "in" or more of what the card works "against." Plow Under, similarly to Armageddon and friends, is not very good when you are far behind on board. For that reason it is not that great against fast aggro unless you are able to deal with their early threats. It is fantastic against midrange and control though. This card does 2 things for you:
1) All else equal, Plow Under will give you a mana/land advantage of +2 over your opponent. This is a big deal in a format where 4-6 mana spells are so back-breaking.
2) Plow Under locks down your opponent's draws for 2 turns.
If you are ahead on board at all, Plow Under can often lock your opponent out of the game long enough for you to take the game out of reach. You have a +2 mana advantage over them while they re-draw their lands for the next 2 turns, and you are potentially drawing gas.
@hardb0dy: Play it like it's an armageddon, except that it costs 5 mana but can go into beatdown midrange decks. Decks that curve from mana dorks into good 3-4cc beaters can close the game out by plow undering the opponent's resources and preventing them from topdecking outs to your advantageous board state. The disadvantages are the additional mana and only hitting 2 resources, but the advantages are the card advantage and the asymmetrical nature of the effect (making it a fine play on board parity unlike the 'Geddons). Even if you're not playing an "aggro" deck, you can still be playing a deck that you anticipate being the beatdown in during most of your matches. Those are the decks that want Plow Under. The effect is hugely powerful and smothering on its own, but is back-breaking if you're already ahead ...often simply prompting a concession. It's hands-down the first 5cc green card I'd add to any cube list.
@cuttups: I play with Symbol Status in my Conspiracy Module, but I don't think it's one of green's 20 best cards. I excluded it from the ranking because I don't think it belongs on the list, not because I have a personal disliking for Un- cards.
How many creatures are you getting on average? How many tokens would you need to generate for it to be a consideration? Are you running all different symbols for your basics? Just curious.
Probably about 6-7. We use basics with different symbols. All the creatures are 1/1s, so even though the power/cost ratio is good, the strength of the board presence is less than that of something like Deranged Hermit. And it also loses the main creature body for abuse and green tutoring that makes the creature-based "army-in-a-can" cards so much better, IMO. It's nasty with anthems out, but so are the other army-style cards. It's good, but it's not going to crack my top-20.
We did play it in aggro and midrange decks (no particular land destruct/denial theme though... and now I play less having cut Pillage and Avalanche Riders) and I don't recall it being an enter scoop phase type of card, unless it was forked by Chandra of course. My experience with the card is more similar to Hicham's, where I found myself wanting to just cast another 5-drop threat more often than not. Plus I'm really liking Nissa and where green is with the ramp/fatty cheat strategy so I'll take a wait and see approach with Plow Under.
2 Sylvan Library - 17.7
3 Natural Order - 16.6
3 Eternal Witness - 16.6
5 Garruk Wildspeaker - 15.6
6 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary - 13.7
7 Garruk Relentless - 10.9
8 Birds of Paradise - 9.6
9 Primeval Titan - 8.4
10 Eureka - 6.0
11 Fauna Shaman - 5.9
12 Channel - 5.7
13 Regrowth - 5.6
14 Lotus Cobra - 5.0
15 Joraga Treespeaker - 4.8
16 Thragtusk - 4.7
17 Deranged Hermit - 3.8
18 Den Protector - 3.5
19 Tooth and Nail - 3.3
20 Nissa, Worldwaker - 2.8
A full list of results, with all cards that received votes, can be found on this google spreadsheet.
Thanks to all 23 voters!
willdice, cuttups, Cythare, wtwlf123, Metamind, hardb0dy, Ennex, Griseldaddy, Zetsu_Sensei, LucidVision, Calibretto, Salmo, hopefulhawkeye, TheAngryHermit, Truesight, TheSloth, TheRift88, pillar15, artbcnco, Star Slayer, rantipole, Hicham, SunBurst
Trivia
* Just missed: Tarmogoyf (2.7), Plow Under (2.6), Green Sun's Zenith (2.6), and Song of the Dryads (2.5)
* Survival of the Fittest and Sylvan Library repeat their first and second places. Natural Order manages to get tied with Eternal Witness at 3rd.
* Noble Hierarch, former #8, got moved to the SHARDS group, where she intends to get an even better position among the Bant cards.
* Rise and Fall: #18 Den Protector and #20 Nissa, Worldwaker are the green new cards to reach a spot on the ranking, but another kind of newcomer got way better this time - Fauna Shaman lands a #11 after being out of the 2014 Top 20. Eureka got more popular this year, rising 7 positions (#17 to #10), with Regrowth rising 6 (#19 to #13). The ones to leave the ranking are former #13 Tarmogoyf, #15 Plow Under and #20 Thrun, the Last Troll, while Lotus Cobra falls 5 positions (#9 to #14).
* 49 different cards received votes.
Again, for reference, here's last year's Green Results thread.
===
Green didn't change as much as Red did, but it did had some very relevant shifts in position.
Green's got an overall improvement on the "cheating things into play" theme - Natural Order actually would have been the only 3rd place by itself if it wasn't the very last vote causing the tie; Eureka went from the low end to the middle of the ranking, Tooth and Nail entered the ranking at #19, and Oath of the Druids was effectively #25 - I expect it gets enough votes next year to get in the ranking too.
I'm also totally in favor of Fauna Shaman's new position in the ranking. And Tarmogoy is just a cheap beater in a color with cool shenanigans you can pick instead.
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Only 8 people out of 23 voted on Plow Under. Three (you, rantipole and SunBurst) put it at #8 or #9. The other 5 votes were #14-#20. It is surprising it ended as #22 overall with so many no-votes.
This seems like a really illogical conclusion to come to. There is a HUGE number of insane cube bombs that are dead/bad/useless in certain situations. Better cut that Black Lotus, Mind Twist, Armageddon, Balance, Sol Ring, Equipment, Wraths ...basically every single card that runs the risk of not advancing your board position ...because they all have the potential to be "dead" cards when certain situations arise.
..........
Tooth and Nail is an awesome card, and I recommend cubing with it. But certainly not at the cost of Plow Under, and definitely not based on the fact that it's a dead card sometimes.
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You can try Primal Command. I made that swap awhile ago and I'm pretty happy with it. It's half a plow (with more targets) and one quarter of a tooth and nail (minus the combo unfortunately so not really a replacement). But it's both in one card, and it can gain you life if you need it. And it can recycle your graveyard (prevent decking and/or put your NO target back in the deck), or it can be used to hose a GY strategy.
Clearly the BCS for plow under is a lot higher, but I'm all about flexible cards.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Cheers,
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I see Armageddon/Ravages to be the best cards in white, being the absolute ideal curve toppers for aggro decks of all colours and they barely ever whiff. I'd put them in the same tier as Recurring Nightmare, Treachery and Vortex and if I ever saw them all P1P1 I wouldn't know which to take. I'm open to looking at an ideal Plow Under decklist though as getting another card of equal power excites me - I still have my foil in my on deck box so slotting it in will be ezpz.
So do I. And Plow Under dead even less often than the 'Gedons are. Again, assuming you're putting both cards into decks that want them.
I'm stunned by this. There are a ton of cards in your list right now that I'd axe WELL before even looking at Plow Under as a cut, including other 5's that are were much worse for us at winning games than Plow Under is.
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A great card, but not as effective with lots of artifact ramp in the cube that can break out of an early game plow under. It's also easier for your opponent to ramp out something powerful that you need to deal with , by creating a board presence.
I used to pick plow under super high when I first started cubing (unpowered modo cubes), but had many poor experiences with it in my own powered cube during its early incarnations. Could have been bad variance, but given plow under isn't very interesting or synergistic , decided to cut it.
Maybe I'll give it another trial run some time
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Of course, that's why you have Plow Under on your list and I don't. Perhaps once I grasp the awesomeness that is Plow Under, how it works--how to use it properly, I'll be able to make the right cut for it. I tune and tweak all the time but am generally very happy with my list.
But our aggro prefered four drops ( Garruks or white Armageddons)as curve toppers. A lot of midraneg decks were creature based (Survival, Birthing Pod, GSZ,...) and Plow Under not being a creature hurts the decks synergies. That and too many ramp decks had a cheating side (Eureka, Natural Order, Sneak Attack, Reanimation,...). This makes that Plow Under often lost out to creature five drops, even when in a vacuum it might be slightlly better then those cards.
I am surprised that Tooth and Nail is making a comeback, makes me think that maybe we should try it out again. I am also surprised that Sylvan Caryatid got so few votes. Here it is a crowd favorite, with quite a bit of people taking it over Birds because it defensive qualities.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I would say it's less of what the cards works "in" or more of what the card works "against." Plow Under, similarly to Armageddon and friends, is not very good when you are far behind on board. For that reason it is not that great against fast aggro unless you are able to deal with their early threats. It is fantastic against midrange and control though. This card does 2 things for you:
1) All else equal, Plow Under will give you a mana/land advantage of +2 over your opponent. This is a big deal in a format where 4-6 mana spells are so back-breaking.
2) Plow Under locks down your opponent's draws for 2 turns.
If you are ahead on board at all, Plow Under can often lock your opponent out of the game long enough for you to take the game out of reach. You have a +2 mana advantage over them while they re-draw their lands for the next 2 turns, and you are potentially drawing gas.
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Probably about 6-7. We use basics with different symbols. All the creatures are 1/1s, so even though the power/cost ratio is good, the strength of the board presence is less than that of something like Deranged Hermit. And it also loses the main creature body for abuse and green tutoring that makes the creature-based "army-in-a-can" cards so much better, IMO. It's nasty with anthems out, but so are the other army-style cards. It's good, but it's not going to crack my top-20.
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Thanks for the feedback!