My playgroup recently has started to get tired of Bribery. This is a card that under normal circumstances isn't going to be a blowout, because every deck isn't guaranteed to be playing an enormous creature, and if it is, usually that deck will have multiples. However, in cube, we're finding more and more that decks are only running 1 or maybe 2 true finishers, and that stripping a deck of it's finisher and stealing it can often end the game immediately.
I've lost track of the number of times Kokusho has been grabbed by Bribery, which is a huge blowout especially in the 2HG games we tend to favor. But even without someone like him, taking a Sphinx when the blue player's only other finisher is Call the Skybreaker, can really end the game pretty much immediately, and make it less than fun.
Are we doing something wrong? Is there something obvious about Bribery that we're missing, or is this just something that we need to get over and move on?
We're seriously considering removing Bribery from the cube. Whenever we've had other power level concerns, we've always managed to bring in other cards to help counteract the problem: for example when equipment started to get out of hand we added a little more removal that could handle artifacts and people actually started to maindeck it. I'm just not sure what we could actually do to counteract Bribery.
There's plenty of other creature stealing cards in our cube, with Treachery, Sower, and Keiga, but Bribery in particular seems to be drawing significant ire.
Thanks for your input! I myself am torn on this, so I'm intrigued to see if anyone else has run across this problem (with Bribery in particular or with any other cards needing to be removed for being too powerful).
I've never had an issue with Bribery. Aggro decks don't have large enough critters to make it a blowout, midrange decks can usually race their biggest fattie or else take it down, and as for control, well, control decks here don't just run a single finisher. This is especially true if they don't run the countermagic to take care of a spell like Bribery.
I understand your conundrum though, and if it isn't fun for you, take it out. The cube is about having fun, and if your group unanimously hates it, get rid of it and never look back. However, I think maybe the problem is with the way your group builds their control decks and not with Bribery itself.
Would part of our control deck building problems be based on the fact that we run sealed pools significantly more often than draft, and as such control decks rarely have the depth of counterspells they'd like?
Interestingly enough I got blown out by Bribery last night. I was playing R/W aggro with lots of little haste/die end of turn guys and a low curve that topped at Ruinblaster and Baneslayer. I lost game one and game two ended immediately when my opponent stole Baneslayer with Bribery (I had Chandra as the only out). After that I simply sided out the Baneslayer and proceeded to win games 3-5. I really liked that strategy against the deck I played because his threat density was reduced to 3-4 cards which made winning much easier. Siding out the Baneslayer also made his Bribery a dead draw and made him think that i was holding Baneslayer when he played it. Game three when he played Bribery he got Magus of the Scroll....lol fail.
Bribery is very powerful but there are ways to beat it and play around it. If you've got multiple good win conditions along with removal it shouldnt be a problem. If you only have one good win condition you can do what I did and sideboard it out for something else.
Now, I consider myself a pretty good magic player . . . . but somehow I never considered that siding out Kokusho would actually solve my problem.
To be fair, I personally haven't gotten nailed by it yet, I'm usually the guy playing it but I should've seen that as an option when we started talking about it.
Thanks for the idea I'll definitely run that by some people
Personally there hasn't been a game where Kokusho, the Evening Star isn't a fat bomb. I personally don't even run Bribery but if it's as insane as you say maybe I should.
Personally there hasn't been a game where Kokusho, the Evening Star isn't a fat bomb. I personally don't even run Bribery but if it's as insane as you say maybe I should.
If we're talking about raw power, I think it should be in just about every cube. Small ones that could only fit it in by cutting Treachery or Future Sight shouldn't, but I think after those two cards it's about as good as you can get for cards that actually cost 5.(Not counting Force of Will or Misdirection for that reason.) No control deck wants to see Bribery resolve against them. Against aggro it isn't very good, but then again, there are a lot of control magic effects that aren't good against aggro.
Would part of our control deck building problems be based on the fact that we run sealed pools significantly more often than draft, and as such control decks rarely have the depth of counterspells they'd like?
It might be, though selecting what to counter is a very important part of running any blue deck. If game one I get blown out by Bribery, because I'm only running one finisher, you'd better believe that I'm going to save a hard counter for it unless I draw that finisher and can keep it in my hand where it's safe.
It could also be that your blue section could use more counterspells so that they show up more in sealed pools, though without seeing your list I obviously can't say for sure. I'm just throwing out possibilities.
Bribery is awesome. It's not "too good", but it's a good card. Simply being able to look through your opponent's deck has some merit. Not to mention the ability to steal their best creature. But it costs 5. I think it's a fair and powerful card. Perfect for the cube.
Bribery can also act as a bomb for the player using it. Yes they are 'stealing' the creature, but it's a way for the Bribery player to play the random game and hope they can get something strong against their opp. It's a gamble, it can be a real big gain, or mostly a wiff. I would suggest keeping it in because it is a little different effect for blue that doesn't happen all the time, which can be really good or just mediocre.
IMO, Bribery is never a whiff. Half of the value is being able to look through your opponent's deck. Even if I only grab a 3 or 4 casting cost creature, it's still worth the mana to evaluate whats left of your opponent's deck.
IMO, Bribery is never a whiff. Half of the value is being able to look through your opponent's deck. Even if I only grab a 3 or 4 casting cost creature, it's still worth the mana to evaluate whats left of your opponent's deck.
Seconded. This is the cube, everyone drafted a bomb, this grabs it. Their second and third best creatures are going to be pretty good too. The insider info on their deck is just gravy.
We took Bribery out a while ago because it was too powerful. Although, at the time we had Darksteel Colossus in which is what most people tried to Bribe. Our Cube has changed significantly since taking it out so maybe it could go back in.
The problem we had with it is that Control Magic is super dope in our Cube, we run lots of big creatures. But Control Magic can only affect the small sample set of creatures already in play. Bribery usually has a much larger target base and only costs one more colorless.
You mentioned that when most other things are too powerful you provide more answers to them, the answer to this problem is already there: if you fear one card taking your only finisher, play another finisher.
You mentioned that when most other things are too powerful you provide more answers to them, the answer to this problem is already there: if you fear one card taking your only finisher, play another finisher.
I would, but this is significantly harder to do in sealed pool than it is in draft, at least in my experience. Often you've only GOT one good on-color finisher, so that's what you run.
Besides countermagic, and HotShot's idea of just siding out the finishers, you should have plenty of spot/mass removal to deal. I faced a deck last week that had Treachery, Dominate, Sower and Control Magic and between spot removal on the enchantments and the Sower, I had to use my own removal on my own creatures (granted, I was the one who landed Bribery) and I was in position to win all 3 games, even though I only walked away winning 1 of 3.
Bribery is fairly costed, it is a great Cube card and it's not one of those "this is too powerful" cards.
Keep it, and learn to deal with it -- as it will make you a better player in the end.
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Bribery is often a complete and total blowout, but it's not so powerful that it should be removed from the cube, IMO. If you're deck can't deal with a finisher, then there's something wrong with your deck. Look at it this way... if you get Bribery'ed and your opponent takes your Yosei and you have no way to deal with it, what are you going to do when your next opponent drops his Rorix? You gotta be able to deal with finishers (sometimes even your own) or your deck is probably going to fail even without the Bribery targeting you.
Bribery has been known to backfire sometimes in some games when we've played with it.
I played with it the other night and managed to get nothing better than a Vampire Nighthawk while my opponent followed with a Visara the Dreadful (it was in his hand the whole time! aagh).
In general though, I think Bribery is one of those cards that is 'almost' too good in my cube. Same goes for Sol Ring, Jitte, Treachery, Balance, Capsize (in our experience), Necropotence, Plow Under etc. I like to think all the powerful cards balance each other out.
I think a lot of feedback may be skewed due to 1on1 vs 2hg. Bribery is definitely a game ender changer 90% of the time it's cast in 2hg. 2hg cube games are usually all about the late game because of a starting 30 life total and shared blockers. Mass clear effects are also highly drafted since they are more likely to hit card advantage in 2hg cube games also reaffirming the likelihood of a late game. A big huge bomb like Inkwell, Titan, or Simic Skyswallower are almost always ran in a deck by each team. As long as the Bribery team paid attention to what bomb went around they should have a good chance of success. Bribery nearly always is an undercosted goliath that gives one team deck information and removes a threat from said deck.
Some people ban time walks and jokalhaupses in 2hg cubes, I could see some one wanting to do the same for bribery.
I can't really comment on the 2HG thing, as we almost never play that format.
I wonder if part of the hate against bribery is how it feels to have it played against you. If you play your best fatty and then it gets killed it tends to make you feel bad but at least it got into play. Some people find Land Destruction and Counterspells unfun because you don't even get to put your fatty on the board. The net result is the same but for some it feels worse. Bribery goes one step further: you don't even get to draw the card, and all of a sudden your opponent is beating you round the head with it.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I think a lot of feedback may be skewed due to 1on1 vs 2hg. Bribery is definitely a game ender changer 90% of the time it's cast in 2hg. 2hg cube games are usually all about the late game because of a starting 30 life total and shared blockers. Mass clear effects are also highly drafted since they are more likely to hit card advantage in 2hg cube games also reaffirming the likelihood of a late game. A big huge bomb like Inkwell, Titan, or Simic Skyswallower are almost always ran in a deck by each team. As long as the Bribery team paid attention to what bomb went around they should have a good chance of success. Bribery nearly always is an undercosted goliath that gives one team deck information and removes a threat from said deck.
Some people ban time walks and jokalhaupses in 2hg cubes, I could see some one wanting to do the same for bribery.
I think it's the other way around. Bribery to me is less good in 2HG because you've got two decks able to come up with answers. If neither deck has counterspells or removal capable of killing hard to deal with creatures they're prolly in trouble to any kind of finisher. Cards like bribery that are really good but don't provide any kind of overwhelming advantage aren't that amazing in 2HG, in my experience.
Where as Jokulhaups is GG if you don't have a counterspell because your opponents get to float mana, Jokulhaups to clear off the whole board and then the other paretner gets to drop some stuff. What kind of answers you have and what kind of threats your opponents have is irrelevant. Mass LD is unfair in 2HG because it stops being remotely balanced when you can play it and still get a full turns worth of mana. And mass LD where you also clear off the rest of the board is way too good.
I think it's the other way around. Bribery to me is less good in 2HG because you've got two decks able to come up with answers. If neither deck has counterspells or removal capable of killing hard to deal with creatures they're prolly in trouble to any kind of finisher.
Every single creature in any cube ever is defeated with this 2hg argument. Yes, there are two people gunning for every threat you come up with, this is the nature of 2hg. Whether or not you hard casted or bribed a bomb into play wouldn't change a thing in your scenario, so I don't understand how it pertains to a bribery? You believe all creatures in general are worse in 2hg therefore taking the best one at a lower cost is bad?
After taking into account everything that can be done has twice the chance of being answered (in other words, a 2hg game) and all has been made even, the bribery still = undercosted bomb + deck knowledge + extracted bomb, after you come to that conclusion, tack on the increased probability of success in bribing a monstrosity.
As a sum up - after all 2hg creatures and spells have received penalties for being more likely answered you are still left with a card whose power level has increased from the transition of 1vs1 to 2hg.
I can't really comment on the 2HG thing, as we almost never play that format.
I wonder if part of the hate against bribery is how it feels to have it played against you. If you play your best fatty and then it gets killed it tends to make you feel bad but at least it got into play. Some people find Land Destruction and Counterspells unfun because you don't even get to put your fatty on the board. The net result is the same but for some it feels worse. Bribery goes one step further: you don't even get to draw the card, and all of a sudden your opponent is beating you round the head with it.
My group plays a lot of 2hg and although Bribery is at no risk of ever leaving (or armageddons, jokalhaups,timewalks, ect.). I have heard the Bribery argument come up plenty of times when we get 8 people sitting around playing 2hgs for hours. It is actually as about as common to hear a complaint about Bribery as it is to hear complaints about the other known skewed 2hg cards. I only say this to bring up that I don't hear this level of complaining about removal, counter, or Control Magics, it is a complaint that is pretty much just reserved for cards that behave more powerfully in 2hg.
When I saw this thread pop up, it didn't surprise me and I figured there would be a few 2hg people that would acknowledge that the OP plays a lot of 2hg and recognize the inherit problem with Bribery. After all this time, no one said anything about 2hg so I'm left assuming I am the only one that understands why the OP has noticed the complaint trend with his group.
My official opinion would be to run Armaggeddon, Jokalhaups, Timewalks, Bribery, and any other 2hg powerful card, because I like cards that are powerful. But my official advise would be if your group doesn't like cards that inherently go up in power level based on 2hg, then yeah cut it, because Bribery is one of them.
I've lost track of the number of times Kokusho has been grabbed by Bribery, which is a huge blowout especially in the 2HG games we tend to favor. But even without someone like him, taking a Sphinx when the blue player's only other finisher is Call the Skybreaker, can really end the game pretty much immediately, and make it less than fun.
Are we doing something wrong? Is there something obvious about Bribery that we're missing, or is this just something that we need to get over and move on?
We're seriously considering removing Bribery from the cube. Whenever we've had other power level concerns, we've always managed to bring in other cards to help counteract the problem: for example when equipment started to get out of hand we added a little more removal that could handle artifacts and people actually started to maindeck it. I'm just not sure what we could actually do to counteract Bribery.
There's plenty of other creature stealing cards in our cube, with Treachery, Sower, and Keiga, but Bribery in particular seems to be drawing significant ire.
Thanks for your input! I myself am torn on this, so I'm intrigued to see if anyone else has run across this problem (with Bribery in particular or with any other cards needing to be removed for being too powerful).
J
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I understand your conundrum though, and if it isn't fun for you, take it out. The cube is about having fun, and if your group unanimously hates it, get rid of it and never look back. However, I think maybe the problem is with the way your group builds their control decks and not with Bribery itself.
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
J
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Bribery is very powerful but there are ways to beat it and play around it. If you've got multiple good win conditions along with removal it shouldnt be a problem. If you only have one good win condition you can do what I did and sideboard it out for something else.
To be fair, I personally haven't gotten nailed by it yet, I'm usually the guy playing it but I should've seen that as an option when we started talking about it.
Thanks for the idea I'll definitely run that by some people
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
If we're talking about raw power, I think it should be in just about every cube. Small ones that could only fit it in by cutting Treachery or Future Sight shouldn't, but I think after those two cards it's about as good as you can get for cards that actually cost 5.(Not counting Force of Will or Misdirection for that reason.) No
controldeck wants to see Bribery resolve against them. Against aggro it isn't very good, but then again, there are a lot of control magic effects that aren't good against aggro.It might be, though selecting what to counter is a very important part of running any blue deck. If game one I get blown out by Bribery, because I'm only running one finisher, you'd better believe that I'm going to save a hard counter for it unless I draw that finisher and can keep it in my hand where it's safe.
It could also be that your blue section could use more counterspells so that they show up more in sealed pools, though without seeing your list I obviously can't say for sure. I'm just throwing out possibilities.
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
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Bribery is very good but it shouldn't be a game over.
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I realize there are some strange omissions, but we're a strange group of players. Still, that's what we're going with right now.
J
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Seconded. This is the cube, everyone drafted a bomb, this grabs it. Their second and third best creatures are going to be pretty good too. The insider info on their deck is just gravy.
The problem we had with it is that Control Magic is super dope in our Cube, we run lots of big creatures. But Control Magic can only affect the small sample set of creatures already in play. Bribery usually has a much larger target base and only costs one more colorless.
I would, but this is significantly harder to do in sealed pool than it is in draft, at least in my experience. Often you've only GOT one good on-color finisher, so that's what you run.
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Bribery is fairly costed, it is a great Cube card and it's not one of those "this is too powerful" cards.
Keep it, and learn to deal with it -- as it will make you a better player in the end.
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I played with it the other night and managed to get nothing better than a Vampire Nighthawk while my opponent followed with a Visara the Dreadful (it was in his hand the whole time! aagh).
In general though, I think Bribery is one of those cards that is 'almost' too good in my cube. Same goes for Sol Ring, Jitte, Treachery, Balance, Capsize (in our experience), Necropotence, Plow Under etc. I like to think all the powerful cards balance each other out.
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enderchanger 90% of the time it's cast in 2hg. 2hg cube games are usually all about the late game because of a starting 30 life total and shared blockers. Mass clear effects are also highly drafted since they are more likely to hit card advantage in 2hg cube games also reaffirming the likelihood of a late game. A big huge bomb like Inkwell, Titan, or Simic Skyswallower are almost always ran in a deck by each team. As long as the Bribery team paid attention to what bomb went around they should have a good chance of success. Bribery nearly always is an undercosted goliath that gives one team deck information and removes a threat from said deck.Some people ban time walks and jokalhaupses in 2hg cubes, I could see some one wanting to do the same for bribery.
I wonder if part of the hate against bribery is how it feels to have it played against you. If you play your best fatty and then it gets killed it tends to make you feel bad but at least it got into play. Some people find Land Destruction and Counterspells unfun because you don't even get to put your fatty on the board. The net result is the same but for some it feels worse. Bribery goes one step further: you don't even get to draw the card, and all of a sudden your opponent is beating you round the head with it.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I think it's the other way around. Bribery to me is less good in 2HG because you've got two decks able to come up with answers. If neither deck has counterspells or removal capable of killing hard to deal with creatures they're prolly in trouble to any kind of finisher. Cards like bribery that are really good but don't provide any kind of overwhelming advantage aren't that amazing in 2HG, in my experience.
Where as Jokulhaups is GG if you don't have a counterspell because your opponents get to float mana, Jokulhaups to clear off the whole board and then the other paretner gets to drop some stuff. What kind of answers you have and what kind of threats your opponents have is irrelevant. Mass LD is unfair in 2HG because it stops being remotely balanced when you can play it and still get a full turns worth of mana. And mass LD where you also clear off the rest of the board is way too good.
Every single creature in any cube ever is defeated with this 2hg argument. Yes, there are two people gunning for every threat you come up with, this is the nature of 2hg. Whether or not you hard casted or bribed a bomb into play wouldn't change a thing in your scenario, so I don't understand how it pertains to a bribery? You believe all creatures in general are worse in 2hg therefore taking the best one at a lower cost is bad?
After taking into account everything that can be done has twice the chance of being answered (in other words, a 2hg game) and all has been made even, the bribery still = undercosted bomb + deck knowledge + extracted bomb, after you come to that conclusion, tack on the increased probability of success in bribing a monstrosity.
As a sum up - after all 2hg creatures and spells have received penalties for being more likely answered you are still left with a card whose power level has increased from the transition of 1vs1 to 2hg.
My group plays a lot of 2hg and although Bribery is at no risk of ever leaving (or armageddons, jokalhaups,timewalks, ect.). I have heard the Bribery argument come up plenty of times when we get 8 people sitting around playing 2hgs for hours. It is actually as about as common to hear a complaint about Bribery as it is to hear complaints about the other known skewed 2hg cards. I only say this to bring up that I don't hear this level of complaining about removal, counter, or Control Magics, it is a complaint that is pretty much just reserved for cards that behave more powerfully in 2hg.
When I saw this thread pop up, it didn't surprise me and I figured there would be a few 2hg people that would acknowledge that the OP plays a lot of 2hg and recognize the inherit problem with Bribery. After all this time, no one said anything about 2hg so I'm left assuming I am the only one that understands why the OP has noticed the complaint trend with his group.
My official opinion would be to run Armaggeddon, Jokalhaups, Timewalks, Bribery, and any other 2hg powerful card, because I like cards that are powerful. But my official advise would be if your group doesn't like cards that inherently go up in power level based on 2hg, then yeah cut it, because Bribery is one of them.