I don't understand this issue with bribery for 2HG, why is it better in 2HG than 1v1? you have double the amount of removal to stop the bomb that was taken??
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am petitioning for the end of: the Mythic rarity, the Planeswalker card type, the post-8th edition card faces, the 2010 rule changes, colorless cards that aren't artifacts or lands, the Legendary supertype, the stack, auras, multicolor cards, artifact creatures, tokens, goblins, merfolk, elves, sorceries, instants, and permanents. Basically, I just want to play with purple contraptions.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
I don't understand this issue with bribery for 2HG, why is it better in 2HG than 1v1? you have double the amount of removal to stop the bomb that was taken??
Re-read my last post maybe you got in before it was editted. That was kcolloran point, and I believe I answered it.
you have double the amount of removal to stop the bomb that was taken??
Yes. This could also be said for any creature or non-creature spell. For example,
Ancestral Recall is more likely to be countered in a 2hg game because 2 players may have counter in hand and may have available mana.
This statement is 100% true. When applied to every other spell having the same chances to be countered you still end up with an even playing field putting Ancestral still way above the power curve, sitting at about the same power level that it would have in a 1 on 1 game.
Simic Sky Swallower is more likely to be killed in a 2hg game becuase 2 players may have an Edict or Wrath in hand and available mana.
Also 100% true. Then apply an even playing field again since everything is more likely to have an answer and Skyswallower stays at about the same power in a 2hg game compared to other available bombs as it would in 1 on 1 game compared to other available bombs.
Onto my point. Taking from the example above I will use Ancestral Recall. Recall has gained the functionality of targeting your teammate for the draw, although already so powerful that it doesn't matter this is an increase of value. If you were to evaluate a card similar like Brainstorm, you would see it does not increase in the transition. Unlike most cards that get played in 1 on 1 and 2hg, Bribery has gained a new functionality that increases it's value, it can now tutor into two different libraries. You also have the benefit of having two sets of eyes that saw the cards from the draft, giving Bribery a much higher probability of bribing into something below cost. In other words, it has received an increase in the transition.
So after every spell has received the "it's more likely to be answered argument" you end up with a bunch of cards that maintain about the same value. You then have to consider new value that has been given to some cards when evaluating power level.
Some cards have ridiculous power added to them. In some cases like Jokalhaups, it might not even make final 40 in 1vs1 but would be a 1st pick and auto-include in 2hg
Then you end up with cards that gain a little value but really doesn't change their value enough to matter leaving them the same in 1on1 or 2hg, such as Ancestral.
Bribery falls somewhere in the middle. It gains a significant boost but it doesn't break the game in half like a timewalk might. So my advise stands from my last post.
Re-read my last post maybe you got in before it was editted. That was kcolloran point, and I believe I answered it.
edit: If not then I'll add more.
Yes. This could also be said for any creature or non-creature spell. For example,
Ancestral Recall is more likely to be countered in a 2hg game because 2 players may have counter in hand and may have available mana.
This statement is 100% true. When applied to every other spell having the same chances to be countered you still end up with an even playing field putting Ancestral still way above the power curve, sitting at about the same power level that it would have in a 1 on 1 game.
Simic Skyswalloer is more likely to be killed in a 2hg game becuase 2 players may have an Edict or Wrath in hand and available mana.
Also 100% true. Then apply an even playing field again since everything is more likely to have an answer and Skyswallower stays at about the same power in a 2hg game compared to other available bombs as it would in 1 on 1 game compared to other available bombs.
Taken from the example above we will use Ancestral Recall. Recall has gained the functionality of helping your teammate draw, although so powerful it doesn't matter this is an increase of value. If you take a card like Brainstorm, it sees no increase in the transition. Now onto Bribery. Unlike most cards that get played in 1 on 1 and 2hg, Bribery has gained a new functionality that increases it's value, it can now tutor into two different libraries. You also have the benefit of having two sets of eyes that saw the cards from the draft, giving Bribery a much higher probability of bribing into something below cost. So although that Simic was penalized, so was everything else, and if it gets bribed it still came in for 2 less, an easier cost, gained deck information, and it extracted one of your opponents decks.
So after every spell has received the "it's more likely to be answered argument" you end up with a bunch of cards that maintain about the same value. You then have to consider new value that has been given to some cards when evaluating power level. Some cards have ridiculous power adding to them, making them number 1 picks in 2hg when they may not even make a deck in 1 on 1, such as Jokalhaups. Then you end up with cards that gain a little value but it really doesn't change their status, such as Ancestral. Bribery falls somewhere in the middle. It gains a significant boost but it doesn't break the game in half like a timewalk might. So my advise stands from my last post.
I think maybe we play 2HG differently. In my experience it's the cards that provide significant advantage that are at their best in 2HG. Now Bribery can be used to do that (the briberying Terastodon example), but I just don't think there are any creatures that are that scary by themselves.
Don't get me wrong. Bribery is still very good in 2HG. But it I don't think it's better and if it is, it's just slightly. Jokulhaups is game over in 2HG. Bribery is far far from that.
I think maybe we play 2HG differently. In my experience it's the cards that provide significant advantage that are at their best in 2HG.
That sounds like the same 2hg I've been talking about. It sounds more like you don't value Bribery as providing a significant advantage. If you have read my full explanation and trust your own experience over mine, then you have decided you are right. There really isn't a debate coming from your posts just more of a statement that Bribery is worse in 2hg.
Now Bribery can be used to do that (the briberying Terastodon example), but I just don't think there are any creatures that are that scary by themselves.
I don't think there are any Jokalhaups plays by themselves that scare me into taking it out. Arguing the exclusion of Bribery has never been my point. My point is that there is an increase in value, and nothing has been said that would defer my point.
Don't get me wrong. Bribery is still very good in 2HG. But it I don't think it's better and if it is, it's just slightly.
This is the closest you have come to explaining why Bribery is worse in 2hg and this should be your focus of a counter argument. If you feel Bribery has received a decrease or no increase at all, please explain how my points of how it has increase in value are incorrect. If you agree they are all increases, then just say it is your opinion that the value isn't significant enough to warrant an exclusion. Which I believe is really what you were thinking but instead wrote that we play a different 2HG and that Bribery gains no value.
So long as you recognize the value increase you can then begin to place the significance of that value. If your group feels it is insignificant, then it stays, if it is too significant to your group, it leaves. Which was my advice, only my focus was on reassuring the OP I get it.
Bribery in many cases doesn't provide any kind of significant advantage. There just aren't that many creatures that provide really significant advantage. You asked earlier if I thought all creatures were worse in 2HG and I'd say the answer to that is yes, they are. Aggro creatures are worse because of the extra life and the fact that if either player has defense the whole army is stopped. And expensive creatures are worse because there are more available answers and less need to use them on smaller creatures, because smaller creatures are less good so they see less play and they're easier to stop. If all creatures are less good than Bribery by association becomes less good.
The thing that makes Jokulhaups so good is that every creature in the non-Jokul opponents deck becomes an even better Desolation Angel. It doesn't even really matter what they drop. They get to pound your face in and you can't do anything about it cause you have no board at all. It's totally broken.
If you agree that 2HG is about cards that provide significant advantage than I don't see how you think Bribery is better in 2HG.
Bribery in many cases doesn't provide any kind of significant advantage. There just aren't that many creatures that provide really significant advantage.
You asked earlier if I thought all creatures were worse in 2HG and I'd say the answer to that is yes, they are.
Yes, exactly the point I made and was the foundation of the next 5 paragraphs, and about 3 paragraphs in the next post. It was a rhetorical question that's answer segwayed into a line of reasoning. I gotta admit it seems like you are not reading my posts all the way through.
The thing that makes Jokulhaups so good is that every creature in the non-Jokul opponents deck becomes an even better Desolation Angel. It doesn't even really matter what they drop. They get to pound your face in and you can't do anything about it cause you have no board at all. It's totally broken.
I haven't argued that Jokulhaups is too good or that it is too bad. I also haven't argued Bribery is too good or too bad. Your statement is 100% accurate. It also is 100% in agreeance with everything I have said about the haups and it is 100% irrelevant to any disagreement we have had. You are using agreeable 'fluff' to try and validate an argument that you have side stepped, again.
If you agree that 2HG is about cards that provide significant advantage than I don't see how you think Bribery is better in 2HG.
For you is the word "better" interchangeable with "the best ever", because it seems like you are thinking that it is. If not, I think it is better for the well thought out reasons I have written for you 4 or 5 times now. If you have skimmed them (which it seems you have), there is no point in my saying them again. The more I reiterate the same things the more likely I will misspeak my points, so until something new arises feel free to read my original posts for clarification. I really don't have any new information to add to them. If you can't give reasons why I am incorrect, then it would seem you have nothing more to add either.
Common ways of winning in 2HG in my experience: Opponents Mana Screw (often encouraged by cards like Avalanche Riders or Strip Mine), broken combo kind of plays (rec. nightmare, palinchron going infinite), or cards that provide significant advantage (mind twist, Kokusho, Nicol Bolas planeswalker, mass removal). Creatures like Akroma or Sphinx of Jwar Isle might be the cards that actually deal the last damage but they're rarely the key cards to winning the game in my experience.
It looks like this thread predates the Card and Archetype Discussion subforum, maybe one of the mods can move this there.
So Bribery has made the top 20 in the Power Rankings for blue again, and it's the only non-Power 9 blue card I'm not running besides Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I've always assumed that this card is at its best in cubes where Natural Order/Sneak Attack/Show and Tell decks are supported because there are much nastier creatures to steal out of people's decks than anything I'm running. Plus, aggro decks that top out at 4CMC or even 3 CMC are pretty common in my cube matches, so I haven't been in any hurry to add Bribery.
It is different from control magic because it has the huge downside of not removing one of the threats they have on the board. It's still rather bad against aggro.
It's not bad against aggro at all. Aggro still plays good targets for Bribery, even if it's just a Hero or a Flametongue or something. Hell, taking their Manic Vandal, blowing up their Sword and trading with their creature ...while looking through their entire library... is still a perfectly fine play. And that's about as bad as it can really get. Bribery is a nasty spell, and you certainly don't need to be stealing Eldrazi for it to be good. Taking your opponent's best creature is always punishing.
I would say Bribery is "worse" against aggro than any other deck type. The level of creatures in that deck will be far lower compared to from a midrange or control deck but since the deck you are stealing from is an aggro deck it should match up against whatever creatures they are playing. It just isn't as good of a value for the mana you are spending.
Thanks for the quick and thoughtful responses, everyone. I have to say that I really don't like the comparison to Control Magic, not only because it costs one more, but also because Bribery doesn't give you the card or tempo advantage of stealing the best creature from your opponent's board. It seems like you should have a pretty good shot of stealing something better, but I can imagine plenty of scenarios where that won't happen (opponent's best creature is already in play), or won't be what you need (ex. Hero of Oxid Ridge when you're facing an army of bears and pikers). Since Bribery hopes to outclass rather than remove your opponent's threats, it sounds like it plays more like a midrange card than a control card.
The biggest upside I can see in Bribery over Control Magic is that you do get to take advantage of any ETB effects from the creature you steal, unlike Control Magic.
I'll have to test it for myself to see how it plays in my cube, and fortunately I'm already sitting on a copy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Ridiculous. It's really easy to pick out what is wrong with any comparison, maybe instead of picking it apart you acknowledge the similarity I was suggesting and just take it at that. It doesn't mean I don't realize all of the other things you are saying, my god.
I didn't mean to offend you Hawkeye, but it sounds like anything other than agreeing with you was going to do that. The two cards seem to play pretty different roles, and I don't think I, or anyone else in this thread, was out of line by pointing that out. I like Bribery a lot less than Control Magic or Treachery and think it belongs in fewer decks, but since it's getting mostly rave reviews here I admit I may have undervalued it, so I'm looking forward to testing it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I just don't think it's an apt comparison. Pointing out that the two cards are dissimilar in a number of different nontrivial ways is certainly ok by me.
Take the classic aggro/control match up. You curve out like a boss in aggro and drop hellrider turn 4 and swing in for near lethal. Control player untaps and control magics what? Your tapped hellrider? He needs a wrath or he's dead. Control Magic does not stabilize or even buy him a turn. Bribery you need one extra turn to play (so might be too late barring a mana rock), but if you land it you get an untapped creature that can block and you get the ETB effect which could be a 2 for 1. That one extra mana for Bribery can be worth a whole heck of a lot in the game.
Post wrath, Bribery is even better than control magic since the latter may not even have a target while the former always will. And this is the worst case scenario for Bribery really (against Aggro I mean). Against midrange, control or combo it can be backbreaking. Against reanimator or any other cheat-a-fattie strategy, Bribary usually reads "target player loses the game". All for 5 mana that can only be stopped with a counter spell.
If your environment is aggro dominated, Bribery will not be OP. I can even see in hyper fast/aggro focused cubes, it may not do enough in many cases to earn a spot in a tight list. But in a slower midrange focused meta, this card is borderline unfun. We cut it and have not looked back. But my players are all registered at wedurddleandplaytimmydecks.org. So there's that.
In the Hellrider example sure, stealing a tapped creature with Control Magic won't help. But theres lots of creatures without haste and stealing those ones will help. Not only do you get a guy, you also remove a threat the opponent spent mana on casting.
Post Wrath wouldnt you be better served by just casting your own creature -- One that fits your own deck's plan? It's true vs certain decks you'll hit a Eldrazi/big green but most of the time control decks pack heat already when at 5 mana and up.
Control Magic is also fantastic in aggressive decks since removing a blocker can make way for your attackers. Kind of a big selling point.
Bribery has its plusses for sure... getting info game 1. And being able to tell what's in the opponent's hand through deduction game 2 is great. But I prefer Control Magic for sure due to the tempo swing, cost, and flexibility.
I think this is wildly inaccurate. Obviously the concepts of tempo, resource advantage and board impact are irrelevant to your Magic experience for some reason. You can sculpt your cube however you want, but it doesn't change what fundamentally makes Magic cards good. I'm a huge defender of Bribery, but to call it "light years" better than Control Magic is just ...wrong... no matter how your cube is crafted.
It's hard to say one is better than the other all the time because they're just two completely different cards. If your opponent has no board presence yet or you can grab one of their better/best creatures (taking an NO target, for example), then bribery seems better. If that NO target has already landed, then Control Magic seems better. If they're rocking disenchant, bribery seems better. If they're playing aggro and their curve topper is not much better than the rest of their beed, then control magic seems better. Lightyears ahead seems like a lot, because there are pros and cons to both cards when you're forced to find the pros and cons. It's not like we're comparing Elite Vanguard to Dragon Hunter, they're seperate cards with separate functions.
fwiw if it was p1p1 and they were the two options, I like Bribery and don't think I would consider Control Magic, but that doesn't mean Bribery is always and unarguable a better card.
They're both great cards, but I certainly don't think that Bribery is "light years better" by any stretch. The tempo swing, board impact and resource advantage granted by creature theft effects can't be ignored.
And I think both Bribery and Control Magic are defensible P1P1 choices, even though they're both pretty far down on the list, IMO.
Edit: And Control Magic finished two slots ahead of Bribery on the 2015 top 20 power rankings, fwiw.
I think this is wildly inaccurate. Obviously the concepts of tempo, resource advantage and board impact are irrelevant to your Magic experience for some reason. You can sculpt your cube however you want, but it doesn't change what fundamentally makes Magic cards good. I'm a huge defender of Bribery, but to call it "light years" better than Control Magic is just ...wrong... no matter how your cube is crafted.
We run completely different cubes. I don't know why you constantly have to be elitist about your position when someone disagrees with you. You left off the "IMO" from my post too BTW. But I guess you had to in order to make it seem like your condescending reply was somehow warranted.
Anyway. Tempo is huge in a powered cube (I ran semi-powered for awhile so I have some experience with how it changes the meta). So I can totally see where control magic could be more impactful there on average. The power rankings certainly reflect that opinion as you point out. But in a slower midrange cube like I run, the bomb-stealing factor of Bribery is fantastically better. That has been my experience anyway and we ran both cards together for awhile. When control magic got played, there were usually groans. It's a great card. It wrecks a lot of game states but it rarely auto-wins games. But when Bribery was played, it was typically followed by expletives and scooping. I can't think of a 5CC card that has won more games by itself than Bribery.
I'm not talking about Tempo as a decktype, I'm talking about Tempo as a fundamental Magic concept that involves making better use of your resources in comparison to your opponent relative to how it impacts the board. In that regard, Control Magic is one of the swingiest cards you can play. No matter the speed of the format.
Even in a slower, bombier format, Control Magic is still a stellar card. When your opponent taps out for their 6-drop, and you take it with Control Magic, you just removed their best creature, got a 6cc creature for yourself, force the opponent to waste 6 mana (while getting +2 on value for yourself) ...all for 4 mana. The value generated by that card is infinitely better than the value generated by Bribery outside of the corner cases where you're stealing a creature that's better than their 6cc bomb.
Both cards get much better the slower and bigger the threats in the cube get. And both cards are very close to each other in terms of overall powerlevel. So to say that one card is "light years better" than the other (regardless of the speed of the format, which isn't a factor here) is either a gross overstatement of the value of Bribery, a gross undervaluing of Control Magic, or a clear misunderstanding of how Tempo plays apply to all matchups and aspects of Magic. Again, cube speed, supported archetypes, lack of aggro, no "tempo" decks ...none of that matters in this case. Control Magic scales in value with respect to the size of the average cube threat just like Bribery does. Probably even more, because of how backbreaking it is to have a 6+cc threat stolen by the opponent after you've invested resources to get it to the board.
I'm not being elitist at all. I think you're simply incorrect in your assessment, and I'm pointing out the reasons why. It's okay to think someone's incorrect and not be elitist. There are a lot of cases where the differences in cube construction play a big role in how cards are evaluated. I don't think this is one of them. In fact, I'd argue that the opposite is true in this particular case.
..........
To be clear, I'm a huge supporter of Bribery and I think it's a stellar card. But so is Control Magic, and they're very close in powerlevel. No matter what's going on with the rest of the cube, considering both cards scale up and down in regards to average threat size accordingly. They both made the top 20 for the power rankings this year, 2 spots apart from one another. While the exact positioning isn't always relevant, it's still a good indicator that the cards are close in strength. Both are P1P1 worthy depending on the strength of the pack, and while you and I may both agree that Bribery is the better card, they're super close. "Light years better" doesn't accurately describe the position of these cards, in all fairness. And Control Magic ranked higher than Briber, fwiw.
I think Bribery is good, but I don't run it. It's a Control card. Control's worst match up is aggro, where this card is at its weakest. Yes, maybe you get a FTK or Resto Angel, but just as often your opponents curve topper is Armageddon or a planeswalker and you are left with a Mistral Charger. Not worth 5 mana. The card's BCS is against a mid range or ramp style deck where you will find 5-8 drops, still more often than not we found it could have easily just been our own finisher and been just as good or better. Call me crazy.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
Re-read my last post maybe you got in before it was editted. That was kcolloran point, and I believe I answered it.
edit: If not then I'll add more.
Yes. This could also be said for any creature or non-creature spell. For example,
Ancestral Recall is more likely to be countered in a 2hg game because 2 players may have counter in hand and may have available mana.
This statement is 100% true. When applied to every other spell having the same chances to be countered you still end up with an even playing field putting Ancestral still way above the power curve, sitting at about the same power level that it would have in a 1 on 1 game.
Simic Sky Swallower is more likely to be killed in a 2hg game becuase 2 players may have an Edict or Wrath in hand and available mana.
Also 100% true. Then apply an even playing field again since everything is more likely to have an answer and Skyswallower stays at about the same power in a 2hg game compared to other available bombs as it would in 1 on 1 game compared to other available bombs.
Onto my point. Taking from the example above I will use Ancestral Recall. Recall has gained the functionality of targeting your teammate for the draw, although already so powerful that it doesn't matter this is an increase of value. If you were to evaluate a card similar like Brainstorm, you would see it does not increase in the transition. Unlike most cards that get played in 1 on 1 and 2hg, Bribery has gained a new functionality that increases it's value, it can now tutor into two different libraries. You also have the benefit of having two sets of eyes that saw the cards from the draft, giving Bribery a much higher probability of bribing into something below cost. In other words, it has received an increase in the transition.
So after every spell has received the "it's more likely to be answered argument" you end up with a bunch of cards that maintain about the same value. You then have to consider new value that has been given to some cards when evaluating power level.
Some cards have ridiculous power added to them. In some cases like Jokalhaups, it might not even make final 40 in 1vs1 but would be a 1st pick and auto-include in 2hg
Then you end up with cards that gain a little value but really doesn't change their value enough to matter leaving them the same in 1on1 or 2hg, such as Ancestral.
Bribery falls somewhere in the middle. It gains a significant boost but it doesn't break the game in half like a timewalk might. So my advise stands from my last post.
I think maybe we play 2HG differently. In my experience it's the cards that provide significant advantage that are at their best in 2HG. Now Bribery can be used to do that (the briberying Terastodon example), but I just don't think there are any creatures that are that scary by themselves.
Don't get me wrong. Bribery is still very good in 2HG. But it I don't think it's better and if it is, it's just slightly. Jokulhaups is game over in 2HG. Bribery is far far from that.
That sounds like the same 2hg I've been talking about. It sounds more like you don't value Bribery as providing a significant advantage. If you have read my full explanation and trust your own experience over mine, then you have decided you are right. There really isn't a debate coming from your posts just more of a statement that Bribery is worse in 2hg.
I don't think there are any Jokalhaups plays by themselves that scare me into taking it out. Arguing the exclusion of Bribery has never been my point. My point is that there is an increase in value, and nothing has been said that would defer my point.
This is the closest you have come to explaining why Bribery is worse in 2hg and this should be your focus of a counter argument. If you feel Bribery has received a decrease or no increase at all, please explain how my points of how it has increase in value are incorrect. If you agree they are all increases, then just say it is your opinion that the value isn't significant enough to warrant an exclusion. Which I believe is really what you were thinking but instead wrote that we play a different 2HG and that Bribery gains no value.
So long as you recognize the value increase you can then begin to place the significance of that value. If your group feels it is insignificant, then it stays, if it is too significant to your group, it leaves. Which was my advice, only my focus was on reassuring the OP I get it.
The thing that makes Jokulhaups so good is that every creature in the non-Jokul opponents deck becomes an even better Desolation Angel. It doesn't even really matter what they drop. They get to pound your face in and you can't do anything about it cause you have no board at all. It's totally broken.
If you agree that 2HG is about cards that provide significant advantage than I don't see how you think Bribery is better in 2HG.
How do teams usually win in your 2HG games?
Yes, exactly the point I made and was the foundation of the next 5 paragraphs, and about 3 paragraphs in the next post. It was a rhetorical question that's answer segwayed into a line of reasoning. I gotta admit it seems like you are not reading my posts all the way through.
I haven't argued that Jokulhaups is too good or that it is too bad. I also haven't argued Bribery is too good or too bad. Your statement is 100% accurate. It also is 100% in agreeance with everything I have said about the haups and it is 100% irrelevant to any disagreement we have had. You are using agreeable 'fluff' to try and validate an argument that you have side stepped, again.
For you is the word "better" interchangeable with "the best ever", because it seems like you are thinking that it is. If not, I think it is better for the well thought out reasons I have written for you 4 or 5 times now. If you have skimmed them (which it seems you have), there is no point in my saying them again. The more I reiterate the same things the more likely I will misspeak my points, so until something new arises feel free to read my original posts for clarification. I really don't have any new information to add to them. If you can't give reasons why I am incorrect, then it would seem you have nothing more to add either.
So Bribery has made the top 20 in the Power Rankings for blue again, and it's the only non-Power 9 blue card I'm not running besides Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I've always assumed that this card is at its best in cubes where Natural Order/Sneak Attack/Show and Tell decks are supported because there are much nastier creatures to steal out of people's decks than anything I'm running. Plus, aggro decks that top out at 4CMC or even 3 CMC are pretty common in my cube matches, so I haven't been in any hurry to add Bribery.
Am I underestimating the power level of Bribery in a cube without the bigger Eldrazi, Blightsteel Colossus, and Worldspine Wurm?
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Check out the Cube Discord channel here
thats my cube
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Draft my cube!
Watch me stream!
The biggest upside I can see in Bribery over Control Magic is that you do get to take advantage of any ETB effects from the creature you steal, unlike Control Magic.
I'll have to test it for myself to see how it plays in my cube, and fortunately I'm already sitting on a copy.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I think it belongs in every cube of every size.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I didn't mean to offend you Hawkeye, but it sounds like anything other than agreeing with you was going to do that. The two cards seem to play pretty different roles, and I don't think I, or anyone else in this thread, was out of line by pointing that out. I like Bribery a lot less than Control Magic or Treachery and think it belongs in fewer decks, but since it's getting mostly rave reviews here I admit I may have undervalued it, so I'm looking forward to testing it.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Take the classic aggro/control match up. You curve out like a boss in aggro and drop hellrider turn 4 and swing in for near lethal. Control player untaps and control magics what? Your tapped hellrider? He needs a wrath or he's dead. Control Magic does not stabilize or even buy him a turn. Bribery you need one extra turn to play (so might be too late barring a mana rock), but if you land it you get an untapped creature that can block and you get the ETB effect which could be a 2 for 1. That one extra mana for Bribery can be worth a whole heck of a lot in the game.
Post wrath, Bribery is even better than control magic since the latter may not even have a target while the former always will. And this is the worst case scenario for Bribery really (against Aggro I mean). Against midrange, control or combo it can be backbreaking. Against reanimator or any other cheat-a-fattie strategy, Bribary usually reads "target player loses the game". All for 5 mana that can only be stopped with a counter spell.
If your environment is aggro dominated, Bribery will not be OP. I can even see in hyper fast/aggro focused cubes, it may not do enough in many cases to earn a spot in a tight list. But in a slower midrange focused meta, this card is borderline unfun. We cut it and have not looked back. But my players are all registered at wedurddleandplaytimmydecks.org. So there's that.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Post Wrath wouldnt you be better served by just casting your own creature -- One that fits your own deck's plan? It's true vs certain decks you'll hit a Eldrazi/big green but most of the time control decks pack heat already when at 5 mana and up.
Control Magic is also fantastic in aggressive decks since removing a blocker can make way for your attackers. Kind of a big selling point.
Bribery has its plusses for sure... getting info game 1. And being able to tell what's in the opponent's hand through deduction game 2 is great. But I prefer Control Magic for sure due to the tempo swing, cost, and flexibility.
I think this is wildly inaccurate. Obviously the concepts of tempo, resource advantage and board impact are irrelevant to your Magic experience for some reason. You can sculpt your cube however you want, but it doesn't change what fundamentally makes Magic cards good. I'm a huge defender of Bribery, but to call it "light years" better than Control Magic is just ...wrong... no matter how your cube is crafted.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
fwiw if it was p1p1 and they were the two options, I like Bribery and don't think I would consider Control Magic, but that doesn't mean Bribery is always and unarguable a better card.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
And I think both Bribery and Control Magic are defensible P1P1 choices, even though they're both pretty far down on the list, IMO.
Edit: And Control Magic finished two slots ahead of Bribery on the 2015 top 20 power rankings, fwiw.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
We run completely different cubes. I don't know why you constantly have to be elitist about your position when someone disagrees with you. You left off the "IMO" from my post too BTW. But I guess you had to in order to make it seem like your condescending reply was somehow warranted.
Anyway. Tempo is huge in a powered cube (I ran semi-powered for awhile so I have some experience with how it changes the meta). So I can totally see where control magic could be more impactful there on average. The power rankings certainly reflect that opinion as you point out. But in a slower midrange cube like I run, the bomb-stealing factor of Bribery is fantastically better. That has been my experience anyway and we ran both cards together for awhile. When control magic got played, there were usually groans. It's a great card. It wrecks a lot of game states but it rarely auto-wins games. But when Bribery was played, it was typically followed by expletives and scooping. I can't think of a 5CC card that has won more games by itself than Bribery.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Even in a slower, bombier format, Control Magic is still a stellar card. When your opponent taps out for their 6-drop, and you take it with Control Magic, you just removed their best creature, got a 6cc creature for yourself, force the opponent to waste 6 mana (while getting +2 on value for yourself) ...all for 4 mana. The value generated by that card is infinitely better than the value generated by Bribery outside of the corner cases where you're stealing a creature that's better than their 6cc bomb.
Both cards get much better the slower and bigger the threats in the cube get. And both cards are very close to each other in terms of overall powerlevel. So to say that one card is "light years better" than the other (regardless of the speed of the format, which isn't a factor here) is either a gross overstatement of the value of Bribery, a gross undervaluing of Control Magic, or a clear misunderstanding of how Tempo plays apply to all matchups and aspects of Magic. Again, cube speed, supported archetypes, lack of aggro, no "tempo" decks ...none of that matters in this case. Control Magic scales in value with respect to the size of the average cube threat just like Bribery does. Probably even more, because of how backbreaking it is to have a 6+cc threat stolen by the opponent after you've invested resources to get it to the board.
I'm not being elitist at all. I think you're simply incorrect in your assessment, and I'm pointing out the reasons why. It's okay to think someone's incorrect and not be elitist. There are a lot of cases where the differences in cube construction play a big role in how cards are evaluated. I don't think this is one of them. In fact, I'd argue that the opposite is true in this particular case.
..........
To be clear, I'm a huge supporter of Bribery and I think it's a stellar card. But so is Control Magic, and they're very close in powerlevel. No matter what's going on with the rest of the cube, considering both cards scale up and down in regards to average threat size accordingly. They both made the top 20 for the power rankings this year, 2 spots apart from one another. While the exact positioning isn't always relevant, it's still a good indicator that the cards are close in strength. Both are P1P1 worthy depending on the strength of the pack, and while you and I may both agree that Bribery is the better card, they're super close. "Light years better" doesn't accurately describe the position of these cards, in all fairness. And Control Magic ranked higher than Briber, fwiw.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
http://cubetutor.com/cubeblog/993
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/23690