I asked some of my friends if Dark Confidant is good in cube. Is it good enough? Definitely! But they say that due to the mana cost variance in the cube, there will be times that you just take a ton of damage from him. Black aggro isn't supported in any of our local cubes, and Bob isn't in any of them either.
I understand he is sick with library manipulation, but I'm worried about the times you just run him out on turn 2 and he just eats your life.
Black aggro isn't supported in any of our local cubes.
It should be.
Bob is stupid good and should be in every cube that allows rares. Been in my cube since day 1, never going to leave. It's not just good with library manipulation, but primarily in aggro decks and/or decks with low costs.
I'd like to just echo the comments already here. Dark Confidant is the creature I want more than anything when I am remotely aggro and playing black. He just warps games like no other card can.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I've found Bob to also be good in BW aggro. Those two colors can best offset the life loss and have really good aggressive cards. Having Bob and Knight of Meadowgrain together on the table is good times.
It's been said. Black aggro should be part of a cube. And Dark Confidant is awesome in it. Last night, i drafted a W/b aggro/discard deck. He was insane. I've been drafting alot of aggro lately...
I'm curious, if you don't have aggressive black creatures, what do you use in place of that? Blacks late game is very horrible. Black has always to me seemed like the determined rampaging zombie who attacks and attacks and leaves you just enough life that some bone head spell comes down and drains the rest of your life
Bob is good if you can keep your curve low enough. I will happily 1st pick him and then try to force black aggro.
I don't agree that black's late game is so horrible. Maybe it's my penchant for rock decks, but B/G can often just wear an opponent down. My black section has strong control elements, so can often work with blue or white as a slow control deck.
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There's also the fact that most draft decks are about 60/40 business/lands ratio, so the odds that you'll flip a land are pretty close to the odds that you'll flip a spell. I can't say that I've ever had bad luck with Bob on my team. If you can draft him and the deck that wants him, he's amazing. There's been times, though, that I've taken him P1P1 and then couldn't play him because my deck had too many high casting cost cards in it.
In a black aggro deck he is gold. Until and unless you make black aggro viable, he is weak.
I'd say he's not worth including in your cube unless you change your mind on aggro.
This is very true. When my cube was first starting out, it didn't support any aggro at all and Bob was pretty much useless. I kept him in there since a lot of people rated him highly but he always ended up doing a crazy amount of damage to his controller. When I added more aggro cards to the cube, his stock started to go up.
I've been struggling with designing black's archetypes for awhile actually. My last goal was to find a nice balance of reanimation spells. I've wanted to put in more aggressive creatures, but at this moment I am not sure what to change. I'm adding more cards to my cube, and I'm looking to add mostly creatures to black. I have a list of potential adds, mostly Shadow creatures, Bob, and the coldsnap pump knight.
What I don't know is how black's creatures should be split, between reanimation targets, utility creatures (puppeteer clique), and the creatures that kill stuff like Shriekmaw.
reanimation targets don't have to be black because you're not going to actually be spending mana on them. i wouldn't waste too many slots in black on unnecessary reanimation targets. reanimator decks around these parts are usually reanimating akroma, angel of wrath, inkwell leviathan, and various two and three color fatties.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I had a crack at functionally organising my cube and Here's how it played out (look at the 'functional' spoiler). Black turned out to have the following themes:
Aggro,
Disruption (discard),
Spot Removal,
Sweepers (anything that kills multiple creatures),
Graveyard manipulation (including reanimation spells)
as well as a surprising amount of card draw and tutoring.
It's for the sort of cube analysis you are talking about that is the very reason I regrouped my cube functionally.
Make sense?
Edit: Agree with quieter. You only need the reanimation spells in black, not the targets.
Funny that you bring up Dark Confidant. When we drafted my cube last Sunday, one of our regular players asked me: "Why is this guy in your cube? Is he any good?" I tried to explain to him that if the mana curve in your deck is low enough, drawing multiple cards during the course of the game for no mana is insane, even at the cost of some life. I also said that he is one of the best creatures in Vintage, but was met with disbelief...
Funny that you bring up Dark Confidant. When we drafted my cube last Sunday, one of our regular players asked me: "Why is this guy in your cube? Is he any good?" I tried to explain to him that if the mana curve in your deck is low enough, drawing multiple cards during the course of the game for no mana is insane, even at the cost of some life. I also said that he is one of the best creatures in Vintage, but was met with disbelief...
Some players don't understand the game of Magic. You have to explain to them why cards like Dark Confidant and City of Brass are great cards. Not everybody "gets it" though... you'll just have to use it against them and see.
If you lose with a Confidant in play... do you know how much worse you'd have lost without him?
My group is going through this right now. We have a new player--he's been playing for just a couple months. He couldn't get beyond the "lose 2 life" part of Thoughtseize and called it "crappy." If you don't understand that life points are a resource, cards like Dark Confidant, Char, and Thoughtseize look really bad.
My group is going through this right now. We have a new player--he's been playing for just a couple months. He couldn't get beyond the "lose 2 life" part of Thoughtseize and called it "crappy." If you don't understand that life points are a resource, cards like Dark Confidant, Char, and Thoughtseize look really bad.
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There is definitely a line between playing cards like thoughtseize and painlands, and running Dark Confidant in a draft deck with minimal support.
I mean, if I take bob in a cube draft, and then get passed Shriekmaw... I'm probably playing both. I'd probably have the best black deck at the table, but losing a ton of life isn't something I want to do too much of against a bunch of creature based strategies.
Life is a resource, but when you start talking about infernal contract type payments, you have to be aware of what you're doing and not do it too lightly.
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Put cards in the decks they go in. If you put Bob into a deck he doesn't belong in, of course he's gonna be bad. ("I flipped up my Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker?! You guys told me Dark Confidant was good!" :mad:)
I ended up in a BGW Aggro deck a couple weeks ago, where I didn't have one card with a CC over 4. I said to the group, "I'm now looking for ONE card, and if I land that card -- I swear, I'm set." That card was Bob. He came to me at P4P4. I just about did a backflip.
He single handedly won me 4 separate games from the card draw (One of which I was down early 20-10, I got a few turns of card draw off of him before I had to Smother him -- but those few extra cards flipped the game. I was down to 1, and I dealt 20 points of damage to my opponent before he could fire off that final 1 he needed to win. This is the game where I had Nether Void and Lodestone Golem in play -- Bob helped me find 2 lands quickly -- and my opponent had 5 mana sources...couldn't find the 6th to Banefire for 1 and the win).
Granted, the deck was built to be low CC before he got there, but there are very few cards that can single handedly win games like that. Cards that do, belong in the Cube.
(EDIT: For the record, Turtle refuses to draft Bob because he doesn't have the confidence in his own deckbuilding skills to be able to abuse him completely. At least he's honest. The card can ruin you if you don't know what you're doing. It's a tricky one to play if you don't know how to use it properly. That said, it can be considered "okay" by those who haven't yet played with it at it's full potential)
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Put cards in the decks they go in. If you put Bob into a deck he doesn't belong in, of course he's gonna be bad. ("I flipped up my Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker?! You guys told me Dark Confidant was good!" :mad:)
Saying that Bob is only good if you open him P1P1 and force black aggro is incredibly dismissive, and doesn't help the player who *should* run him but cuts him in a borderline situation.
He's one of the most interesting risk/reward cards in the game, and sometimes you'll see him pack 2 or 3 and have to evaluate whether playing him is correct in your deck.
By the logic here, if I open Dark Confidant and Viscera Dragger P3P1, and I look at my curve and go "eh... I have an Ob Nix, and a thrashing wumpus... I could cut them... but Wtwlf said only in black aggro, and my ave curve before cuts is like 2.1, so I'll ship the best black creature printed."
That to me is "minimal support." A normal, midrange cube draft deck with a couple fours and a couple fives and a curve of around two. Obviously, Bob is not at his best, but I don't think you automatically cut him.
There is a line where Bob kills you more than he wins you games, but the easy, safe answer is to say only in a perfect deck for him. If I look dumb because I'm trying to figure out the actual line where you cut him or play him, then I guess I'm just a noob.
--
Edit: To be 100% clear, I'm not saying you always run him. I'm just saying that you go through some sort of cognitive process before going "well, I didn't set out to be MBA." Maybe minimal support wasn't the right word. I should have said "average support" or something.
I understand he is sick with library manipulation, but I'm worried about the times you just run him out on turn 2 and he just eats your life.
What does the hive mind think?
If you're playing Dark Confidant and Akroma in the same deck, that's not Bob's fault.
If you support aggro, its one of the best black cards in the cube.
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It should be.
Bob is stupid good and should be in every cube that allows rares. Been in my cube since day 1, never going to leave. It's not just good with library manipulation, but primarily in aggro decks and/or decks with low costs.
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also i suggest black aggro, too. it's supportable and aggro is awesome.
edit: am i backseat modding? maybe this is inappropriate. i'm sure someone will tell me.
Cheers,
rant
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I don't agree that black's late game is so horrible. Maybe it's my penchant for rock decks, but B/G can often just wear an opponent down. My black section has strong control elements, so can often work with blue or white as a slow control deck.
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I think that you have answered your own question.
In a black aggro deck he is gold. Until and unless you make black aggro viable, he is weak.
I'd say he's not worth including in your cube unless you change your mind on aggro.
This is very true. When my cube was first starting out, it didn't support any aggro at all and Bob was pretty much useless. I kept him in there since a lot of people rated him highly but he always ended up doing a crazy amount of damage to his controller. When I added more aggro cards to the cube, his stock started to go up.
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What I don't know is how black's creatures should be split, between reanimation targets, utility creatures (puppeteer clique), and the creatures that kill stuff like Shriekmaw.
(and you all have been very helpful.)
Aggro,
Disruption (discard),
Spot Removal,
Sweepers (anything that kills multiple creatures),
Graveyard manipulation (including reanimation spells)
as well as a surprising amount of card draw and tutoring.
It's for the sort of cube analysis you are talking about that is the very reason I regrouped my cube functionally.
Make sense?
Edit: Agree with quieter. You only need the reanimation spells in black, not the targets.
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Some players don't understand the game of Magic. You have to explain to them why cards like Dark Confidant and City of Brass are great cards. Not everybody "gets it" though... you'll just have to use it against them and see.
If you lose with a Confidant in play... do you know how much worse you'd have lost without him?
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Cheers,
rant
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There is definitely a line between playing cards like thoughtseize and painlands, and running Dark Confidant in a draft deck with minimal support.
I mean, if I take bob in a cube draft, and then get passed Shriekmaw... I'm probably playing both. I'd probably have the best black deck at the table, but losing a ton of life isn't something I want to do too much of against a bunch of creature based strategies.
Life is a resource, but when you start talking about infernal contract type payments, you have to be aware of what you're doing and not do it too lightly.
Uh... what?
Inkwell Leviathan sure is a crappy card in my WG aggro deck too.
Put cards in the decks they go in. If you put Bob into a deck he doesn't belong in, of course he's gonna be bad. ("I flipped up my Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker?! You guys told me Dark Confidant was good!" :mad:)
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He single handedly won me 4 separate games from the card draw (One of which I was down early 20-10, I got a few turns of card draw off of him before I had to Smother him -- but those few extra cards flipped the game. I was down to 1, and I dealt 20 points of damage to my opponent before he could fire off that final 1 he needed to win. This is the game where I had Nether Void and Lodestone Golem in play -- Bob helped me find 2 lands quickly -- and my opponent had 5 mana sources...couldn't find the 6th to Banefire for 1 and the win).
Granted, the deck was built to be low CC before he got there, but there are very few cards that can single handedly win games like that. Cards that do, belong in the Cube.
(EDIT: For the record, Turtle refuses to draft Bob because he doesn't have the confidence in his own deckbuilding skills to be able to abuse him completely. At least he's honest. The card can ruin you if you don't know what you're doing. It's a tricky one to play if you don't know how to use it properly. That said, it can be considered "okay" by those who haven't yet played with it at it's full potential)
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The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
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Saying that Bob is only good if you open him P1P1 and force black aggro is incredibly dismissive, and doesn't help the player who *should* run him but cuts him in a borderline situation.
He's one of the most interesting risk/reward cards in the game, and sometimes you'll see him pack 2 or 3 and have to evaluate whether playing him is correct in your deck.
By the logic here, if I open Dark Confidant and Viscera Dragger P3P1, and I look at my curve and go "eh... I have an Ob Nix, and a thrashing wumpus... I could cut them... but Wtwlf said only in black aggro, and my ave curve before cuts is like 2.1, so I'll ship the best black creature printed."
That to me is "minimal support." A normal, midrange cube draft deck with a couple fours and a couple fives and a curve of around two. Obviously, Bob is not at his best, but I don't think you automatically cut him.
There is a line where Bob kills you more than he wins you games, but the easy, safe answer is to say only in a perfect deck for him. If I look dumb because I'm trying to figure out the actual line where you cut him or play him, then I guess I'm just a noob.
--
Edit: To be 100% clear, I'm not saying you always run him. I'm just saying that you go through some sort of cognitive process before going "well, I didn't set out to be MBA." Maybe minimal support wasn't the right word. I should have said "average support" or something.