That's not going to happen in a 720 list for like another 5 years, lol. Once you have 48 planeswalkers in your cube we'll see what your attitude is then.
Ahh! But we'll see soon. I am conjuring up a nutzo way of making sure the cube is scaled every time with exactly the number of people who show up. So if we have 8, it'll a 360 cube, if its 16, then its a 720 cube.
I think the balance will naturally restore itself as the Planeswalkers will start competing with each other in the 4-5 CMC slots and tight multicolour sections. I'd actually like to see a competitive 6-7 CMC mono colour 'walker as a finisher (like Sorin 1.0, but better and with >1 ability), as that's something we haven't seen from them yet.
I think the balance will naturally restore itself as the Planeswalkers will start competing with each other in the 4-5 CMC slots and tight multicolour sections. I'd actually like to see a competitive 6-7 CMC mono colour 'walker as a finisher (like Sorin 1.0, but better and with >1 ability), as that's something we haven't seen from them yet.
There is a ton of design space that we haven't seen explored yet, from 2 mana or less planeswalkers, to all kinds of possible emblems, to abilities like '0 - gain x loyalty where x is equal to y'...the possibilities are endless and I'm excited to see what happens.
Just like any other card, if things get too crowded at a cmc, something has to go. We are almost there for smaller Cubes (especially in white), but larger ones still have some breathing room.
There is a ton of design space that we haven't seen explored yet, from 2 mana or less planeswalkers, to all kinds of possible emblems, to abilities like '0 - gain x loyalty where x is equal to y'...the possibilities are endless and I'm excited to see what happens.
Just like any other card, if things get too crowded at a cmc, something has to go. We are almost there for smaller Cubes (especially in white), but larger ones still have some breathing room.
-AA
If I'm not mistaken, Wizards has stated that they don't want to make walkers below CMC 3 (and, clearly, even that's rare). Who knows that'll happen as designers change and whatnot, but that seems to be the policy for now.
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Ajani 1.0 is valuable as one of the very few playable Anthem effects at 360-450 level. Even outside of that context, all his abilities can be relevant in various decks. He's a great aggro curve topper, and boosts the token archetype.
The problem I had with Ajani was simply a space concern. At a little over 500 cards I feel that the max number of 4cc white spells I could run was 6. Even without Moat and Ravages of War he still eventually got cut. Is he a great card? Sure but there are quite a few better cards at that highly contested cc.
At 500 cards, I'm not looking to cut Ajani 1.0 yet. Calciderm will certainly get the boot before Ajani. But he is at the most crowded spot in the curve, making it likely he'll get the ax eventually.
As of right now I am sitting at 24 planeswalkers in my cube with the only ones I am not playing being Chandra Ablaze and Nissa Revane which makes up <3.5% of my cube being planeswalkers.
Looking at what wtwlf said - 16 in a 360 averages out to be 2 walkers per drafter, and 5% of the total cube. Personally I am going to be alright with adding PWs until I reach that 5% mark (which happens to be 36 in total, so I have a couple years still to worry about it). The only exception to this becomes if one color get supremely stacked with walkers. I don't want there to be a discrepancy between colors of >2 planeswalkers. If white gets two more good ones (up to 6 total) with black not receiving any in the near future (keeping at 3) then I would likely cut a white one until other colors catch up. Thankfully this is not a problem I see in the forseeable future!
Planeswalker question has been a reccuring problem in our 360 cube.
In the end, in our group we decided to tret them like creature : With quota.
Only 2 planeswalker per color.
And no more than one planeswalker in each bicolor combinaison.
No tricolor, quadricolor, pentacolor or nocolor planeswalker.
Right no we got 14 planeswalker (Sorin 2.0 included)
Maybe soon 15 if I manage to convince the other to change Glimpse of the Unthinkable to Tezzeret.
At maximum we can only have 20 planeswalkers ... Which mean 6% of the cube, which seems pretty reasonnable.
Don't forget that Planeswalker are usually high pick for everyone : including those doing antidraft. So not all of those appearing in the draft will be played.
We run Garruk 2.0, and it's casting cost proved not to be a problem at all given green access to fast mana.
Why treat planes walkers differently then other cards?
My point of view is that if they are strong enough play them. Sure they are restriction on how many you can play, but those would be not having too many high CC cards, having too many finishers or supporting aggro enough and so on. If the get sideboarded because you have too many 4 drops, then it is time to cut some. There are natural limits to the number planes walkers (unless they are all JaceTMS strong).
We will have more and more anti-planes walker cards in the future. Cards like Vindicate, Bramblecrush and Beast Within will become more and more important. If they keep on printing 'walkers they will keep printing cards like this.
You can limit the number of walkers but you can also adapt the cube. Burn becomes more important, haste becomes more important, maybe even bounce. Anti- PW cards will rise in value, just like we all value the green and red Shatter-on-a-stick cards, cards like Vampire Hexmage and others will become key during drafting.
Magic is evolving, should we insist on standing still?
If I only ran one shard card, I'd run Nicol Bolas over the Ultimatum for sure.
Ignoring colored-mana requirements, Cruel is the stronger spell. My original thought was that I'd also rather have Cruel, because I don't want to encourage players to draft 4/5 color decks (as they are already very strong).
I've since removed Vivid lands, and made some other changes that make 4/5 color much weaker --- so perhaps I'd be willing to switch to Nicol. I'll have to think about it.
Now that the Vivds are gone, I'd make the switch to the 'walker. Even without Vivids, I'd still play the 'walker. UUBBBRR is a disgusting mana cost. I don't care what the spell does if I can't cast it.
I wonder the proportion of PW changes as you go up in Cube size. It seems like there are a second tier of PW that may not make smaller cubes but probably make every medium or larger cube.
There are more 'walkers that are playable in bigger cubes (just like every other card type), but I feel the proportion stays pretty close to the same until you run out of 'walkers completely.
There are more 'walkers that are playable in bigger cubes (just like every other card type), but I feel the proportion stays pretty close to the same until you run out of 'walkers completely.
I would just use eidolon's lists. How many 360/450/540/720 PW. I imagine there is huge variance by the time you get to 720 but thats offset by there not being tons of PW yet.
Ahh! But we'll see soon. I am conjuring up a nutzo way of making sure the cube is scaled every time with exactly the number of people who show up. So if we have 8, it'll a 360 cube, if its 16, then its a 720 cube.
*evil laugh*
(48 walkers.) I can't wait!
I don't really find it to be that much of a problem yet.
Because planeswalkers are, in general, one of the most interactive card types in Magic. They are.
And with a large proportion of planeswalkers making creature tokens, it really doesn't create that different of a gamestate than normal.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Karn Liberated seems to fit the bill.
Just like any other card, if things get too crowded at a cmc, something has to go. We are almost there for smaller Cubes (especially in white), but larger ones still have some breathing room.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
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If I'm not mistaken, Wizards has stated that they don't want to make walkers below CMC 3 (and, clearly, even that's rare). Who knows that'll happen as designers change and whatnot, but that seems to be the policy for now.
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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Looking at what wtwlf said - 16 in a 360 averages out to be 2 walkers per drafter, and 5% of the total cube. Personally I am going to be alright with adding PWs until I reach that 5% mark (which happens to be 36 in total, so I have a couple years still to worry about it). The only exception to this becomes if one color get supremely stacked with walkers. I don't want there to be a discrepancy between colors of >2 planeswalkers. If white gets two more good ones (up to 6 total) with black not receiving any in the near future (keeping at 3) then I would likely cut a white one until other colors catch up. Thankfully this is not a problem I see in the forseeable future!
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Why do you rule out Karn?
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My point of view is that if they are strong enough play them. Sure they are restriction on how many you can play, but those would be not having too many high CC cards, having too many finishers or supporting aggro enough and so on. If the get sideboarded because you have too many 4 drops, then it is time to cut some. There are natural limits to the number planes walkers (unless they are all JaceTMS strong).
We will have more and more anti-planes walker cards in the future. Cards like Vindicate, Bramblecrush and Beast Within will become more and more important. If they keep on printing 'walkers they will keep printing cards like this.
You can limit the number of walkers but you can also adapt the cube. Burn becomes more important, haste becomes more important, maybe even bounce. Anti- PW cards will rise in value, just like we all value the green and red Shatter-on-a-stick cards, cards like Vampire Hexmage and others will become key during drafting.
Magic is evolving, should we insist on standing still?
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Venser, the Sojourner
Sarkhan the Mad
Nissa Revane
Nicol Bolas (only 1 card per shard - we've got Cruel Ultimatum instead)
Jace, Memory Adept (overpowered)
Garruk Relentless (might add this)
Chandra Ablaze
I'm not against removing more as new Planeswalkers are printed.
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Ignoring colored-mana requirements, Cruel is the stronger spell. My original thought was that I'd also rather have Cruel, because I don't want to encourage players to draft 4/5 color decks (as they are already very strong).
I've since removed Vivid lands, and made some other changes that make 4/5 color much weaker --- so perhaps I'd be willing to switch to Nicol. I'll have to think about it.
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Cheers,
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Too bad you can't just ignore mana requirements when you're evaluating cards for the cube.
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Did you read the second sentence in my post?
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Now that the Vivds are gone, I'd make the switch to the 'walker. Even without Vivids, I'd still play the 'walker. UUBBBRR is a disgusting mana cost. I don't care what the spell does if I can't cast it.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I would just use eidolon's lists. How many 360/450/540/720 PW. I imagine there is huge variance by the time you get to 720 but thats offset by there not being tons of PW yet.
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