I'm really uncertain whether I want to play it. MonoR probably wants it, but as soon as you start to combine it with another color (happens quite often in my cube, we almost never Booster Draft), you have better ways to gain card quality.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
I think a lot of off color cards benefit from Faithless Looting: Tarmogoyf, Vengevine, Genesis, Bloodghast, Life from the Loam. Being able to filter is the main function but these other interactions are something to take note of.
I think its a no brainer include in 4xx and higher cubes. It expands red's role in the cube and helps it mesh better with the other colors. At it's worst it can help mono red ditch extra lands.
Small sample size is small, but I tested it in a B/R aggro deck (vs a U/G midrange one) and thought that Faithless Looting was very good. It helped to dig for removal/cheap guys/LD effects rather easily and at a cheap enough cost to where casting it didn't feel like I was disrupting my curve.
Whether it's worth the opportunity cost of running something else in a deck is the big question; would I rather have this in my deck than a cheap burn spell/cheap dude? I'm not sure. I plan to get more data in, but my first impression is a good one.
Whether it's worth the opportunity cost of running something else in a deck is the big question; would I rather have this in my deck than a cheap burn spell/cheap dude?
This is how I see the card in cube: It has a great potential to suffer from the "25th card for the deck"-problem.
This is how I see the card in cube: It has a great potential to suffer from the "25th card for the deck"-problem.
I think it solves the "using the 2Xth best card for the deck" problem. I'd rather include this than some other card that barely fits what I want my deck to do.
I think it solves the "using the 2Xth best card for the deck" problem. I'd rather include this than some other card that barely fits what I want my deck to do.
In cube, it almost never happens that I have to fill out my deck with cards that barely fit. It is almost completely opposite to normal limited games.
In normal limited, you have to fill out the rest of your deck, up to (most often) 23 cards. The "23th card problem" means that you don't have enough cards that are good enough and have to fill the last - 23th - slot with a bad card.
In cube however, you have to cut down to 23 or 24 cards, because you picked up 30+ great cards during the draft. Therefore, by "25th card problem", I mean the situation were you have a cool 25th card that you'd like to include, but there are 24 better cards, so it gets left out.
Faithless Looting is neither a creature, nor removal, nor disruption, nor strict card advantage. Most often, there will be 24+ cards that do fill one of those roles and I'd be happy to include them all in my deck, leaving the Looting out.
Faithless Looting is neither a creature, nor removal, nor disruption, nor strict card advantage. Most often, there will be 24+ cards that do fill one of those roles and I'd be happy to include them all in my deck, leaving the Looting out.
You're right, it's card selection/filtering. Something that red's not used to having. Without testing it, there's no way to tell how it'll play out. Not only does it combo well with several strategies and single cards in the cube, but I'd be willing to trade this spell and two cards I can't use/don't need for two cards that are valuable and useful any day of the week. It can fix flood and screw, as well as optimize your hand for curving out. And it can do it twice. I'd gladly include this card as my 23rd or 24th card over a card that's more redundant at a higher casting cost in my curve.
(I think)...I would much rather include it than the 4th+ burn spell, as this card allows you to dig for those burn spells (for a cheap cost) or dig for other effects/creatures if you need those.
(I think)...I would much rather include it than the 4th+ burn spell, as this card allows you to dig for those burn spells (for a cheap cost) or dig for other effects/creatures if you need those.
Me too. But that's why I want to test it. I don't really know for sure.
I'm also excited about the prospect of using a nontraditional red card. Red cards for reanimation/graveyard/loam/crucible strategies? Seems pretty interesting. Perhaps the more nontraditional the deck gets, the better this spell will be. I don't really know. But I'm interested to test out card filtering with flashback in red.
I think this card is good in red (unlike in blue) because red doesn't really need land 5+. So it will often be draw 2 discard two useless cards. In blue decks you often need your lands alot more and thus can't keep lands to discard as early in the game.
I'm including it regardless just because it looks like a lot of fun to enable graveyard strategies in red, but I agree with Star Slayer that the 23rd card problem of regular drafts seems like a non-issue for cube.
I'm really uncertain whether I want to play it. MonoR probably wants it, but as soon as you start to combine it with another color (happens quite often in my cube, we almost never Booster Draft), you have better ways to gain card quality.
It is crazy as hell. It is like a little Wheel of Fortune.
It depends on the color you're combining it with. Other than blue, none of the colors have good card filtering.
I think that is the crux, and then, even in Izzet, this is superior to Frantic Search; and Deep Analysis; the colour that already has redundancy in looting effects with Enclave Cryptologist and FS; DA.
I think a lot of off color cards benefit from Faithless Looting: Tarmogoyf, Vengevine, Genesis, Bloodghast, Life from the Loam. Being able to filter is the main function but these other interactions are something to take note of.
I think its a no brainer include in 4xx and higher cubes. It expands red's role in the cube and helps it mesh better with the other colors. At it's worst it can help mono red ditch extra lands.
I think it is 180-360 material. In a heart-beat include.
Doubt I'll include this. There's not alot of red interactions with it (i.e. I'm not MD'ing this & Squee without other & better interactions anyway).
My red section is almost exclusively aggro, so I really have trouble believing that my players will MD this over another creature or burn spell.
Well, I would. Lots of red cards are both threats and removal in one, and has a history of using unwanted cards as a resource. That is even without Rakdos RE-Animate, or synergistic strategies.
Small sample size is small, but I tested it in a B/R aggro deck (vs a U/G midrange one) and thought that Faithless Looting was very good. It helped to dig for removal/cheap guys/LD effects rather easily and at a cheap enough cost to where casting it didn't feel like I was disrupting my curve.
Whether it's worth the opportunity cost of running something else in a deck is the big question; would I rather have this in my deck than a cheap burn spell/cheap dude? I'm not sure. I plan to get more data in, but my first impression is a good one.
I want this in red more than any other colour. And the flashback allows you to use your graveyard as a resource, which works well with Chandra's Pheonix; and Squee, Goblin Nabob; as well as a lot of combo cards like Life from the Loam;
I think it solves the "using the 2Xth best card for the deck" problem. I'd rather include this than some other card that barely fits what I want my deck to do.
I like this more than most of the Brainstorm; Impulse; Preodrain; effects in blue. And you personally rate those cards highly for MD?
In cube, it almost never happens that I have to fill out my deck with cards that barely fit. It is almost completely opposite to normal limited games.
*snip*
Faithless Looting is neither a creature, nor removal, nor disruption, nor strict card advantage. Most often, there will be 24+ cards that do fill one of those roles and I'd be happy to include them all in my deck, leaving the Looting out.
First it is Card Advantage, it turns unwanted resources into actual cards.
It combos with re-animate; flashback; and GY recursion strategies, as well as a lot of individual cards.
Red has a lot of cards that are a threat, and disruption/ removal in one card. So it is not uncommon to have a redundancy of both of these.
I would include Frantic Looting; MD over any other red card except Wheel of Fortune. It is of parity with Lightning Bolt in power I feel.
You're right, it's card selection/filtering. Something that red's not used to having. Without testing it, there's no way to tell how it'll play out. Not only does it combo well with several strategies and single cards in the cube, but I'd be willing to trade this spell and two cards I can't use/don't need for two cards that are valuable and useful any day of the week. It can fix flood and screw, as well as optimize your hand for curving out. And it can do it twice. I'd gladly include this card as my 23rd or 24th card over a card that's more redundant at a higher casting cost in my curve.
Even with one activation it is aggressive, filtering out dead cards. When you get to use it again, it generates such more inevitability than Hellspark Elemental; could. I dont know why it is a twenty something card, it is completely bananas, how is this worse than Brainstorm; Preordain; or Ponder;? Imo it is better than Impulse; Frantic Search; Deep Analysis; and Thirst of Knowledge;
(I think)...I would much rather include it than the 4th+ burn spell, as this card allows you to dig for those burn spells (for a cheap cost) or dig for other effects/creatures if you need those.
Well red is always going to be able to draft several burn spells, though only Magma Jet; and Wheel of Fortune; offer any CA.
Me too. But that's why I want to test it. I don't really know for sure.
I'm also excited about the prospect of using a nontraditional red card. Red cards for reanimation/graveyard/loam/crucible strategies? Seems pretty interesting. Perhaps the more nontraditional the deck gets, the better this spell will be. I don't really know. But I'm interested to test out card filtering with flashback in red.
I think this card is good in red (unlike in blue) because red doesn't really need land 5+. So it will often be draw 2 discard two useless cards. In blue decks you often need your lands alot more and thus can't keep lands to discard as early in the game.
But it is better than all the other blue options anyway...
I'm including it regardless just because it looks like a lot of fun to enable graveyard strategies in red, but I agree with Star Slayer that the 23rd card problem of regular drafts seems like a non-issue for cube.
I think it has plenty of cards to rort, and archetypes and strategies to find synegy with. At worst it is a solid card draw for one red mana. It is the most crazy Cube card I have seen since Snapcaster Mage.
this is superior to Frantic Search; and Deep Analysis
I like this more than most of the Brainstorm; Impulse; Preodrain; effects in blue. And you personally rate those cards highly for MD?
how is this worse than Brainstorm; Preordain; or Ponder;?
Faithless Looting is card disadvantage. None of those other cards are.
It's on par with Frantic Search (also card disadvantage), but it's not as good as any of the straight card selection cards are, and it's certainly not better than the CA draw.
Quote from Ponder »
But it is better than all the other blue options anyway...
It's not anywhere near as good as the blue options that make the cut in smaller cubes.
Faithless Looting is card disadvantage. None of those other cards are.
It's on par with Frantic Search (also card disadvantage), but it's not as good as any of the straight card selection cards are, and it's certainly not better than the CA draw.
It's not anywhere near as good as the blue options that make the cut in smaller cubes.
I dont think it can be considered disadvantage when you are using an underutilized resource. It is like a red Bazaar of Bagdad. The first use, it sifts away two dead cards, or sets up a combo piece for re-animate or something. Squee is a pretty common card to interact with these type of cards. Then being able to use it from the graveyard is crazy,it only takes mana, and dead cards, something which aggressive strategies have, when they are lacking reach, to sift through your next two draws.
Even if it ends up being strict disadvantage, cards like Force of Will; and Mox Diamond; show CDA doesnt matter in a lot of cases where the card is cheap enough, to be concerned with tempo, rather than to get extra CA from each and every card. I think the CDA only matters in control mirrors concern with attrition, and then you still get two activation from Looting.
The blue options are pretty much all the same, except that Deep Analysis is similar in flashback cost, but to play DA fairly at full mana cost is not getting online until you have four mana spare, not just a single red, that is a huge difference in strategies which can use this card. Control can use Frantic Looting, but aggressive cant use Deep Analysis.
And so with blue having a lot of redundancy of similar parity of power, it is easy to have the best couple. Red has nothing like this, so nothing is contending for its place.
I agree that the card is good, but when you call it card advantage, it kills the validity of your argument.
I agree that card disadvantage doesn't mean that a card is bad. There are a lot of great cube cards that are card disadvantage. Faithless Looting might be another card to add to that list.
I agree that the effect is unique. I agree that it's probably good enough for the cube. I know it has a lot of good interactions in the cube. These points I'm not contesting with you. But when you say it's card advantage when it's not, I can't agree with that point.
Quote from Ponder »
I dont think it can be considered disadvantage
It is. Plain and simple.
Simple exercise to explain card advantage (again) -
In each case, you start with 3 cards in hand:
1. Deep Analysis. You play it and go up to 4 total cards. You flash it back and go up to 6 total cards. You went from 3 cards to 6 cards in hand, only using one card from your hand. A 4-for-1 play; card advantage.
2. Ponder. You play it and stay at 3 total cards. A 1-for-1 play; card parity.
3. Frantic Search. You play it and go from 3 total cards to 2 total cards. A 2-for-3 play; card disadvantage.
No matter what happens with the quality of the cards drawn/discarded, it's still considered card disadvantage if you net a negative number of cards. Faithless Looting will fall into this category for the same reason.
I agree that the card is good, but when you call it card advantage, it kills the validity of your argument.
I agree that card disadvantage doesn't mean that a card is bad. There are a lot of great cube cards that are card disadvantage. Faithless Looting might be another card to add to that list.
I agree that the effect is unique. I agree that it's probably good enough for the cube. I know it has a lot of good interactions in the cube. These points I'm not contesting with you. But when you say it's card advantage when it's not, I can't agree with that point.
It is. Plain and simple.
Simple exercise to explain card advantage (again) -
In each case, you start with 3 cards in hand:
1. Deep Analysis. You play it and go up to 4 total cards. You flash it back and go up to 6 total cards. You went from 3 cards to 6 cards in hand, only using one card from your hand. A 4-for-1 play; card advantage.
2. Ponder. You play it and stay at 3 total cards. A 1-for-1 play; card parity.
3. Frantic Search. You play it and go from 3 total cards to 2 total cards. A 2-for-3 play; card disadvantage.
No matter what happens with the quality of the cards drawn/discarded, it's still considered card disadvantage if you net a negative number of cards. Faithless Looting will fall into this category for the same reason.
I am saying that it is not the same CDA as Chrome Mox; Mox Diamond; Force of Will. It is the not even the same as Scroll Rack.
You are only throwing away bad cards, and if you only play Frantic Looting from your graveyard, you are not suffering from *any* effects of disadvantage. And the CDA is a one-off cost a card to get 4 more cards drawn..
Deep Analysis is a really poor argument, unless you are talking about only using cards from your GY. Having to wait until turn four, and spending your turn where you could be Amageddon; or Bloodbraid Elf, to get one up in cards? That is the biggest waste of time in an aggressive build. Often games are won with both players having some cards in hand. Even then, DA doesnt help re-animate, flashback, work with Squee, etc..
This gives insane reach to red aggressive strategies, the initial cost of one versus four is crazy. And has the ability for so many rorts, turn two Re-Animate; Goblin Welder; Animate Dead; Exhume; Vengvine; and synergy with Squee; Pheonix; Bloodghast;
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Whether it's worth the opportunity cost of running something else in a deck is the big question; would I rather have this in my deck than a cheap burn spell/cheap dude? I'm not sure. I plan to get more data in, but my first impression is a good one.
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This is how I see the card in cube: It has a great potential to suffer from the "25th card for the deck"-problem.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I think it solves the "using the 2Xth best card for the deck" problem. I'd rather include this than some other card that barely fits what I want my deck to do.
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In cube, it almost never happens that I have to fill out my deck with cards that barely fit. It is almost completely opposite to normal limited games.
In normal limited, you have to fill out the rest of your deck, up to (most often) 23 cards. The "23th card problem" means that you don't have enough cards that are good enough and have to fill the last - 23th - slot with a bad card.
In cube however, you have to cut down to 23 or 24 cards, because you picked up 30+ great cards during the draft. Therefore, by "25th card problem", I mean the situation were you have a cool 25th card that you'd like to include, but there are 24 better cards, so it gets left out.
Faithless Looting is neither a creature, nor removal, nor disruption, nor strict card advantage. Most often, there will be 24+ cards that do fill one of those roles and I'd be happy to include them all in my deck, leaving the Looting out.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
You're right, it's card selection/filtering. Something that red's not used to having. Without testing it, there's no way to tell how it'll play out. Not only does it combo well with several strategies and single cards in the cube, but I'd be willing to trade this spell and two cards I can't use/don't need for two cards that are valuable and useful any day of the week. It can fix flood and screw, as well as optimize your hand for curving out. And it can do it twice. I'd gladly include this card as my 23rd or 24th card over a card that's more redundant at a higher casting cost in my curve.
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Me too. But that's why I want to test it. I don't really know for sure.
I'm also excited about the prospect of using a nontraditional red card. Red cards for reanimation/graveyard/loam/crucible strategies? Seems pretty interesting. Perhaps the more nontraditional the deck gets, the better this spell will be. I don't really know. But I'm interested to test out card filtering with flashback in red.
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It is crazy as hell. It is like a little Wheel of Fortune.
I think that is the crux, and then, even in Izzet, this is superior to Frantic Search; and Deep Analysis; the colour that already has redundancy in looting effects with Enclave Cryptologist and FS; DA.
Squee is Red. Mountains work okay.
I think it is 180-360 material. In a heart-beat include.
Well, I would. Lots of red cards are both threats and removal in one, and has a history of using unwanted cards as a resource. That is even without Rakdos RE-Animate, or synergistic strategies.
Cant hurt.
I want this in red more than any other colour. And the flashback allows you to use your graveyard as a resource, which works well with Chandra's Pheonix; and Squee, Goblin Nabob; as well as a lot of combo cards like Life from the Loam;
Red has to do something other than direct damage.
Huh, Wheel of Fortune; This!; then the rest of your red spells.
I like this more than most of the Brainstorm; Impulse; Preodrain; effects in blue. And you personally rate those cards highly for MD?
First it is Card Advantage, it turns unwanted resources into actual cards.
It combos with re-animate; flashback; and GY recursion strategies, as well as a lot of individual cards.
Red has a lot of cards that are a threat, and disruption/ removal in one card. So it is not uncommon to have a redundancy of both of these.
I would include Frantic Looting; MD over any other red card except Wheel of Fortune. It is of parity with Lightning Bolt in power I feel.
Even with one activation it is aggressive, filtering out dead cards. When you get to use it again, it generates such more inevitability than Hellspark Elemental; could. I dont know why it is a twenty something card, it is completely bananas, how is this worse than Brainstorm; Preordain; or Ponder;? Imo it is better than Impulse; Frantic Search; Deep Analysis; and Thirst of Knowledge;
Well red is always going to be able to draft several burn spells, though only Magma Jet; and Wheel of Fortune; offer any CA.
Ember Hauler.
But it is better than all the other blue options anyway...
I think it has plenty of cards to rort, and archetypes and strategies to find synegy with. At worst it is a solid card draw for one red mana. It is the most crazy Cube card I have seen since Snapcaster Mage.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Faithless Looting is card disadvantage. None of those other cards are.
It's on par with Frantic Search (also card disadvantage), but it's not as good as any of the straight card selection cards are, and it's certainly not better than the CA draw.
It's not anywhere near as good as the blue options that make the cut in smaller cubes.
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I dont think it can be considered disadvantage when you are using an underutilized resource. It is like a red Bazaar of Bagdad. The first use, it sifts away two dead cards, or sets up a combo piece for re-animate or something. Squee is a pretty common card to interact with these type of cards. Then being able to use it from the graveyard is crazy,it only takes mana, and dead cards, something which aggressive strategies have, when they are lacking reach, to sift through your next two draws.
Even if it ends up being strict disadvantage, cards like Force of Will; and Mox Diamond; show CDA doesnt matter in a lot of cases where the card is cheap enough, to be concerned with tempo, rather than to get extra CA from each and every card. I think the CDA only matters in control mirrors concern with attrition, and then you still get two activation from Looting.
The blue options are pretty much all the same, except that Deep Analysis is similar in flashback cost, but to play DA fairly at full mana cost is not getting online until you have four mana spare, not just a single red, that is a huge difference in strategies which can use this card. Control can use Frantic Looting, but aggressive cant use Deep Analysis.
And so with blue having a lot of redundancy of similar parity of power, it is easy to have the best couple. Red has nothing like this, so nothing is contending for its place.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
I agree that the card is good, but when you call it card advantage, it kills the validity of your argument.
I agree that card disadvantage doesn't mean that a card is bad. There are a lot of great cube cards that are card disadvantage. Faithless Looting might be another card to add to that list.
I agree that the effect is unique. I agree that it's probably good enough for the cube. I know it has a lot of good interactions in the cube. These points I'm not contesting with you. But when you say it's card advantage when it's not, I can't agree with that point.
It is. Plain and simple.
Simple exercise to explain card advantage (again) -
In each case, you start with 3 cards in hand:
1. Deep Analysis. You play it and go up to 4 total cards. You flash it back and go up to 6 total cards. You went from 3 cards to 6 cards in hand, only using one card from your hand. A 4-for-1 play; card advantage.
2. Ponder. You play it and stay at 3 total cards. A 1-for-1 play; card parity.
3. Frantic Search. You play it and go from 3 total cards to 2 total cards. A 2-for-3 play; card disadvantage.
No matter what happens with the quality of the cards drawn/discarded, it's still considered card disadvantage if you net a negative number of cards. Faithless Looting will fall into this category for the same reason.
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I am saying that it is not the same CDA as Chrome Mox; Mox Diamond; Force of Will. It is the not even the same as Scroll Rack.
You are only throwing away bad cards, and if you only play Frantic Looting from your graveyard, you are not suffering from *any* effects of disadvantage. And the CDA is a one-off cost a card to get 4 more cards drawn..
Deep Analysis is a really poor argument, unless you are talking about only using cards from your GY. Having to wait until turn four, and spending your turn where you could be Amageddon; or Bloodbraid Elf, to get one up in cards? That is the biggest waste of time in an aggressive build. Often games are won with both players having some cards in hand. Even then, DA doesnt help re-animate, flashback, work with Squee, etc..
This gives insane reach to red aggressive strategies, the initial cost of one versus four is crazy. And has the ability for so many rorts, turn two Re-Animate; Goblin Welder; Animate Dead; Exhume; Vengvine; and synergy with Squee; Pheonix; Bloodghast;
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