This thread is for the discussion of which white two drops should be ran in cube.White is interesting with it's two drops. If we were green we would be looking for creatures with power greater than converted mana cost. If we were red we would be looking for hasty evasive creatures. But with white we are looking at solid creatures that gum up the ground.
White has two main catagories of creatures. The splashable creatures and the not-so splashable ones. Wotc has printed quite a few splashable white creatures in the past few years. This lets us have a lessened commitment to white will staying aggressive.
There are a few creatures that go outside the norm on aggressive creatures. Stoneforge isn't aggressive on it's own, and the legionaire dosen't technically cost 2 mana.
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I don't really think that Serra Avenger is an aggro creature, but more of a midrange-y type of creature. I really like it though, probably more than the average cuber. I like beeing about to drop a Serra Avenger with a mana leak up turn 4, or similar.
My point of reference is my 450 peasant cube and the limited experience I have with Konfusius' 450 unpowered, just so you know where I'm coming from:
CC critters that want to be played on curve are difficult, a lot more difficult than one might guess initially at least. Because of that, my standards with these cards are very high. Knight of Meadowgrain certainly makes it, the Soltari twins do, but that's that for the aggressive-only weenies. 8.5 Tails and Leonin Relic-Warder are also fine because they needn't be played early on, but I'd make the cut after these two. The rest are too weak for this comparatively restrictive cost and five of them might be too many already.
Too good there are also the 1W critters. The Pegasi and Soltari Trooper are unexciting, but pretty strong and they do exactly what you want, namely potentially do a lot of damage. Accorder Paladin and Cloistered Youth offer bodies well above the curve, and then there's those that are not exclusively aggro again. This distinction is not as steep as with the WW ones because there's less difficulty with dropping aggressive 1W guys on turn two than dropping aggressive WW guys on turn two. Thalia and Ronom Unicorn/Kami of Ancient Law help disrupt your opponent and I absolutely love Kor Skyfisher (as you can tell from the fact that it's my sig..), whereas Stoneforge Mystic is just pretty insane. So from the list in the OP, I'm fine with all the 1W guys, but not with the WW ones.
Personal experience on War Priest of Thune as it's been mentioned: I prefer Ronom Unicorn/Kami. That might seem counterintuitive at first, because you'd normally rather have a critter and the removal and not either or, but the density of enchantments is too low. I'd rather drop the Unicorn on turn two, connect a couple of times and then trade with Pacifism than wait and hold it until my opponent might play a target and then getting a bear that's pretty irrelevant at that stage. That would be completely different with artifacts, but that's not what we're talking about here.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
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*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
Personal experience on War Priest of Thune as it's been mentioned: I prefer Ronom Unicorn/Kami. That might seem counterintuitive at first, because you'd normally rather have a critter and the removal and not either or, but the density of enchantments is too low. I'd rather drop the Unicorn on turn two, connect a couple of times and then trade with Pacifism than wait and hold it until my opponent might play a target and then getting a bear that's pretty irrelevant at that stage. That would be completely different with artifacts, but that's not what we're talking about here.
While I don't have as much cube experience as most here, I agree with this assessment. Most cubes just don't have enough enchantments to make War Priest of Thune a real two-for-one often enough. I'd usually end up using it as a Glory Seeker and feel bad about having such a lame creature (and moreso if an opponent played a problematic enchantment some time after the War Priest hit the board.) Even if a Ronom Unicorn plays like Glory Seeker a lot of the time, it still has the potential to do more, which is big for me becasue you don't have the bad feeling when your opponent plays an enchantment later and it usually makes your opponent hesitate to play their enchantment (becasue who wants to use up their Survival of the Fittest of Bitterblossom just to remove a 2/2?)
How many WW creatures can you support as a percentage of cube size? We all know that CC spells are difficult to hit on curve, and drafters know this too. So, besides this issue, or perhaps because of it, if a drafter sees that your cube has a lot of CC creatures, they will likely assume that you're trying to push mono-coloured decks. How many CC creatures (or WW in this case) is enough to include the really good cards but not enough to send the wrong message to drafters?
What are your criteria for choosing to include a WW creature? What specific attribute(s) makes it good enough to overlook the difficult casting cost?
How many WW creatures can you support as a percentage of cube size? We all know that CC spells are difficult to hit on curve, and drafters know this too. So, besides this issue, or perhaps because of it, if a drafter sees that your cube has a lot of CC creatures, they will likely assume that you're trying to push mono-coloured decks. How many CC creatures (or WW in this case) is enough to include the really good cards but not enough to send the wrong message to drafters?
What are your criteria for choosing to include a WW creature? What specific attribute(s) makes it good enough to overlook the difficult casting cost?
I use ~1.11% as a percentage of my cube size (6 in 540). White Knight (and similarly Silver Knight and Black Knight) is almost surviving on nostalgia fumes, but I think it's still useful enough to keep around.
The cubable CC guys seem to have resiliency and evasion as big markers to their playability with that restrictive cost.
For example, knights with protection (resiliency and evasion) and first strike (evasion) all on a power=cmc basis. Soltari creatures similarly have the same resiliency and are effectively unblockable. Knight of Meadowgrain has less protection, but trades it for a pretty swingy effect in an aggro mirror (almost, but not quite like double-strike when it hits your opponent, since it makes it so much harder to race you).
I'd like to see some WW-cost creatures with more non-combat abilities being made sometime that are still useful in any deck, and aren't simply red hate bears like Kor Firewalker. Loyal Cathar is actually really cool from a uniqueness standpoint since it's the only one (that I've used, anyway) with card advantage built-in.
I'd like to see some WW-cost creatures with more non-combat abilities being made sometime that are still useful in any deck, and aren't simply red hate bears like Kor Firewalker.
How many WW creatures can you support as a percentage of cube size? We all know that CC spells are difficult to hit on curve, and drafters know this too. So, besides this issue, or perhaps because of it, if a drafter sees that your cube has a lot of CC creatures, they will likely assume that you're trying to push mono-coloured decks. How many CC creatures (or WW in this case) is enough to include the really good cards but not enough to send the wrong message to drafters?
What are your criteria for choosing to include a WW creature? What specific attribute(s) makes it good enough to overlook the difficult casting cost?
Generally, I focus on whether or not they are respectable when played as 3 drops. This is why the protection knights just miss the cut (two protections and I would run them) while the shadow fellas, Serra Avenger, and Knight of Meadowgrain still get included.
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails seems like it would have marginal use outside of granting itself and your team evasion, and it costs a lot to do that. I know a lot of people still like that potential, though.
Leonin Relic-Warder is fine, but it's just not a very unique effect, and I really wish it were more like its green and red artifact destroying counterparts at 3 mana. There is such a range of cubable disenchant effects that making this one cost double-color is a big letdown.
8.5 Tails is also in my Top 10 underrated cards by Cube drafters/builders. If you are saying something like 'seems', it seems that you have not played it before. I have lost and won innumerable games to the fox that seemed like they were in the bag.
Please don't knock it till you try it; 8.5 Tails is NEVER coming out of my Cube.
(I was depressed when I lost in the finals for an 8.5 Tails statue!)
8.5 Tails is also in my Top 10 underrated cards by Cube drafters/builders. If you are saying something like 'seems', it seems that you have not played it before. I have lost and won innumerable games to the fox that seemed like they were in the bag.
Please don't knock it till you try it; 8.5 Tails is NEVER coming out of my Cube.
(I was depressed when I lost in the finals for an 8.5 Tails statue!)
-AA
Its not underrated, it is simply not a two drop in functionality. The card is extremely mana intensive. If you are evaluating it as a two drop I think its very weak, but as a 5 drop for instance it looks very good. The truth is something in the middle. With cards being so powerful I don't think that qualifies him.
Couldn't disagree more. Once again...have you played with it/against it? It certainly is no 5-drop, as your opponent (if they are smart) will immediately kill it if you play it at any point, and there is a lot of value in playing 'must-kill' creatures in your decks.
Still is a 2/2 for 2 with TREMENDOUS upside. The 'mana intensive' argument would be fine if it didn't have the ability to take over games single-handedly when it hits play. Well worth the mana spent over the course of virtually any game.
I don't like 8.5 Tails much at all. It was always extremely underwhelming for us, and incredibly mana-intensive. It played as an okay 5-drop for mid-range decks that wanted to protect its other big threats, but in aggro, it was a total pile.
Antknee42 convinced me to give the fox cleric another try, and I am happy so far. It is a bear on turn two, but left unchecked it singlehandedly wins games. Can't ask much more when it comes to two-drops, really.
As for Relic Warder, I like it as a tempo play. So good to get rid of their turn two mana artifact and keep beating.
White has two main catagories of creatures. The splashable creatures and the not-so splashable ones. Wotc has printed quite a few splashable white creatures in the past few years. This lets us have a lessened commitment to white will staying aggressive.
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Soltari Trooper
1 Mistral Charger
1 Stormfrong Pegasus
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Accorder Paladin
1 Ronom Unicorn
1 Lone Missionary
1 Cloistered Youth
1 White Knight
1 Silver Knight
1 Knight of the Meadowgrain
1 Soltari Priest
1 Soltari Monk
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Eight-and-a-half-tails
1 Serra Avenger
There are a few creatures that go outside the norm on aggressive creatures. Stoneforge isn't aggressive on it's own, and the legionaire dosen't technically cost 2 mana.
1 Porcelien Legionaire
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Also Kami of Ancient Law, but I guess it's really the same as Ronom Unicorn.
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Also, I would include whipcorder.
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After using a search for splashable 2-drops with 2 power, I would also consider adding Alabaster Mage, Benalish Cavalry, Ethersworn Canonist, Kataki, War's Wage, and maybe even Spectral Lynx and Whitemane Lion to the list as well.
Knight of the Holy Nimbus has seen play in the past, as has Sigiled Paladin, and Kor Firewalker and Samurai of the Pale Curtain have seen play as cube hate bears. And I'll second White Shield Crusader for past play as well.
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CC critters that want to be played on curve are difficult, a lot more difficult than one might guess initially at least. Because of that, my standards with these cards are very high. Knight of Meadowgrain certainly makes it, the Soltari twins do, but that's that for the aggressive-only weenies. 8.5 Tails and Leonin Relic-Warder are also fine because they needn't be played early on, but I'd make the cut after these two. The rest are too weak for this comparatively restrictive cost and five of them might be too many already.
Too good there are also the 1W critters. The Pegasi and Soltari Trooper are unexciting, but pretty strong and they do exactly what you want, namely potentially do a lot of damage. Accorder Paladin and Cloistered Youth offer bodies well above the curve, and then there's those that are not exclusively aggro again. This distinction is not as steep as with the WW ones because there's less difficulty with dropping aggressive 1W guys on turn two than dropping aggressive WW guys on turn two. Thalia and Ronom Unicorn/Kami of Ancient Law help disrupt your opponent and I absolutely love Kor Skyfisher (as you can tell from the fact that it's my sig..), whereas Stoneforge Mystic is just pretty insane. So from the list in the OP, I'm fine with all the 1W guys, but not with the WW ones.
Personal experience on War Priest of Thune as it's been mentioned: I prefer Ronom Unicorn/Kami. That might seem counterintuitive at first, because you'd normally rather have a critter and the removal and not either or, but the density of enchantments is too low. I'd rather drop the Unicorn on turn two, connect a couple of times and then trade with Pacifism than wait and hold it until my opponent might play a target and then getting a bear that's pretty irrelevant at that stage. That would be completely different with artifacts, but that's not what we're talking about here.
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
What are your criteria for choosing to include a WW creature? What specific attribute(s) makes it good enough to overlook the difficult casting cost?
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I use ~1.11% as a percentage of my cube size (6 in 540). White Knight (and similarly Silver Knight and Black Knight) is almost surviving on nostalgia fumes, but I think it's still useful enough to keep around.
The cubable CC guys seem to have resiliency and evasion as big markers to their playability with that restrictive cost.
For example, knights with protection (resiliency and evasion) and first strike (evasion) all on a power=cmc basis. Soltari creatures similarly have the same resiliency and are effectively unblockable. Knight of Meadowgrain has less protection, but trades it for a pretty swingy effect in an aggro mirror (almost, but not quite like double-strike when it hits your opponent, since it makes it so much harder to race you).
I'd like to see some WW-cost creatures with more non-combat abilities being made sometime that are still useful in any deck, and aren't simply red hate bears like Kor Firewalker. Loyal Cathar is actually really cool from a uniqueness standpoint since it's the only one (that I've used, anyway) with card advantage built-in.
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Generally, I focus on whether or not they are respectable when played as 3 drops. This is why the protection knights just miss the cut (two protections and I would run them) while the shadow fellas, Serra Avenger, and Knight of Meadowgrain still get included.
I just don't care for those very much.
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails seems like it would have marginal use outside of granting itself and your team evasion, and it costs a lot to do that. I know a lot of people still like that potential, though.
Leonin Relic-Warder is fine, but it's just not a very unique effect, and I really wish it were more like its green and red artifact destroying counterparts at 3 mana. There is such a range of cubable disenchant effects that making this one cost double-color is a big letdown.
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Please don't knock it till you try it; 8.5 Tails is NEVER coming out of my Cube.
(I was depressed when I lost in the finals for an 8.5 Tails statue!)
-AA
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Its not underrated, it is simply not a two drop in functionality. The card is extremely mana intensive. If you are evaluating it as a two drop I think its very weak, but as a 5 drop for instance it looks very good. The truth is something in the middle. With cards being so powerful I don't think that qualifies him.
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Still is a 2/2 for 2 with TREMENDOUS upside. The 'mana intensive' argument would be fine if it didn't have the ability to take over games single-handedly when it hits play. Well worth the mana spent over the course of virtually any game.
-AA
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As for Relic Warder, I like it as a tempo play. So good to get rid of their turn two mana artifact and keep beating.
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