Are you kind of worried that blue Planeswalkers tend to be so good in Cube compared to other colors? Aside from Tezzeret I think they're all really good and enable lots of different strategies. Compared to say like, green or red. White I think has the next best planeswalkers thanks to the Elspeths and Gideon and even Ajani is really good for white weenie.
Not yet. In fact, I think White still has better planeswalkers. Blue has more in right now, but the combined power-level of Elspeth 1.0 and Gideon Jura is higher than the combo of planeswalkers in any of the other colors, even blue's Jace 2.0 and Jace 3.0 combo. Tamiyo is good so far, but she's not breaking the color or anything. Blue was pretty good anyways.
Green's PW suite is pretty savage too.
The cube needs a sick black 4cc 'walker.
There may reach a point where there's too many cube-worthy 'walkers, but we haven't reached it yet (and I don't think I will any time soon).
I really enjoyed reading this review. I definitely agree with your top 3 for 360 auotinclude, but I think Bonfire of the Damned might also be worth testing. A one-sided wrath in a red control deck would be fantastic. I also personally like Entreat the Angels, so I'm going to make space for it.
I am new to cube and I'm trying to build a 360. I was wondering if you could point me to lists that have the best mulit-colored cards you were talking about. You referred to U/R (Desolate Lighthouse), U/G (Alchemist's Refuge), G/W (Sigarda), and W/R (Slayers' Stronghold) in your review. What are better cards in these guilds that you think edge them out?
I am new to cube and I'm trying to build a 360. I was wondering if you could point me to lists that have the best mulit-colored cards you were talking about. You referred to U/R (Desolate Lighthouse), U/G (Alchemist's Refuge), G/W (Sigarda), and W/R (Slayers' Stronghold) in your review. What are better cards in these guilds that you think edge them out?
360 cubes don't typically use more than three cards in each color combination, so the lands have some fierce competition to crack into.
Simic is pretty deep for small cubes. It has Trygon Predator, Mystic Snake and Simic Sky Swallower (the three I cube with at 360) and a 4th great option in Edric, Spymaster of Trest that could easily go in as well. The Alchemist's Refuge is good, but I can't see it cracking into lists that run less than 5 support cards for each combination, which makes it a 540+ card, IMO.
Selesnya has Kitchen Finks, Qasali Pridemage and Loam Lion to compete with. I rank Sigarda, Host of Herons just behind those three because she's another mid-range and control creature in a combination that has a ton of them available, and the three existing cards are important to have to reach a critical mass of certain effects/bodies. There are also people that love Mirari's Wake that rank it as their top card in that section, which makes it even harder to have Sigarda crack in for some cubes.
Boros, on the other hand, only has 3 existing good cube options, which are Ajani Vengeant, Figure of Destiny and Lightning Helix. I personally rank the Slayers' Stronghold ahead of the Helix and play it in my 360 now. The land is REALLY good. But I could see skeptics and huge fans of Helix keeping it in and ranking the Stronghold 4th on their list.
Hope that helps, and don't hesitate to stop by my cube thread with any questions regarding your 360 design if you want to. The link is in my sig. Happy cubing!
I love sigarda, but I cant switch out mirari's wake for her.
As for the rest, after some serious sealed, winston, small drafts and a big 8-player draft, I was pleased with some of the inclusions.
Tamiyo- Worked out pretty well here. An icy manipulator that steadily built up to a back breaking ultimate. I did see her ult just once...and still lose. Yeah, jitte does that when you are already back on your heals...especially on thrun. I still dont think she is as backbreaking as jace 2 and three. Definitely solid, probably wont see a cut any time soon, but definitely not one of the allstars of blue.
Slayer's stronghold- goodbye lightning helix. This is the little land that could. I love going boros or naya in cube (second only to some blue control variant) and this land does everything I want and more.
Desolate lighthouse- what a difference 1 mana makes. I have not tested this yet, and if I ever move my cube up to 450, its an auto include, until then, ill sit it for the UR damage/draw trio.
And yes, my trio of edris, trygon and the snake are too good of buddies to break up over the alchemist's refuge.
Simic is pretty deep for small cubes. It has Trygon Predator, Mystic Snake and Simic Sky Swallower (the three I cube with at 360) and a 4th great option in Edric, Spymaster of Trest that could easily go in as well. The Alchemist's Refuge is good, but I can't see it cracking into lists that run less than 5 support cards for each combination, which makes it a 540+ card, IMO.
Selesnya has Kitchen Finks, Qasali Pridemage and Loam Lion to compete with. I rank Sigarda, Host of Herons just behind those three because she's another mid-range and control creature in a combination that has a ton of them available, and the three existing cards are important to have to reach a critical mass of certain effects/bodies. There are also people that love Mirari's Wake that rank it as their top card in that section, which makes it even harder to have Sigarda crack in for some cubes.
Boros, on the other hand, only has 3 existing good cube options, which are Ajani Vengeant, Figure of Destiny and Lightning Helix. I personally rank the Slayers' Stronghold ahead of the Helix and play it in my 360 now. The land is REALLY good. But I could see skeptics and huge fans of Helix keeping it in and ranking the Stronghold 4th on their list.
Hope that helps, and don't hesitate to stop by my cube thread with any questions regarding your 360 design if you want to. The link is in my sig. Happy cubing!
Wow, thanks! I really appreciate your help. When I get a little more time, I'll definitely stop by your 360 thread and ask more questions. I'm building an unpowered one, but I really like your list. I think I can take a lot from it. I'd also be interested in hearing your top picks for all of the other guilds. Thanks for your help.
I love sigarda, but I cant switch out mirari's wake for her.
As for the rest, after some serious sealed, winston, small drafts and a big 8-player draft, I was pleased with some of the inclusions.
Tamiyo- Worked out pretty well here. An icy manipulator that steadily built up to a back breaking ultimate. I did see her ult just once...and still lose. Yeah, jitte does that when you are already back on your heals...especially on thrun. I still dont think she is as backbreaking as jace 2 and three. Definitely solid, probably wont see a cut any time soon, but definitely not one of the allstars of blue.
Slayer's stronghold- goodbye lightning helix. This is the little land that could. I love going boros or naya in cube (second only to some blue control variant) and this land does everything I want and more.
Desolate lighthouse- what a difference 1 mana makes. I have not tested this yet, and if I ever move my cube up to 450, its an auto include, until then, ill sit it for the UR damage/draw trio.
And yes, my trio of edris, trygon and the snake are too good of buddies to break up over the alchemist's refuge.
I agree with your consensus, and I think your evaluations are pretty spot-on.
Quote from baconeal »
Wow, thanks! I really appreciate your help. When I get a little more time, I'll definitely stop by your 360 thread and ask more questions. I'm building an unpowered one, but I really like your list. I think I can take a lot from it. I'd also be interested in hearing your top picks for all of the other guilds. Thanks for your help.
You're welcome. And if you wanna know what my top 3 cards for each guild are, you can look at the list in my thread, because I use those top cards in my own list.
"Hi everyone. My name's Guy and I fail at card evaluation."
"Hi Guy."
"Ever since Tamiyo was spoiled, I've been totally underwhelmed by her and was happy that for once I wouldn't have to automatically jam the new set's planeswalkers into my cube. But everyone won't stop talking about how amazing she is. She seems like a more expensive Ajani V, with a practically non-existant -2 ability and a worse ultimate. Help?"
I guess I was half assuming Tamiyo would be number 1, but restoration angel is the real deal in cube. A 3/4 flier for 3W with flash? Just that alone screams powerful to me. But blinking things for lots of value? I can't imagine a UW(x) deck not winning if they go turn 3 man-o'-war turn 4 this bouncing something else, as that's a huge tempo swing. I just love blink effects in general though, they're quite strong.
Also, how do people find tamiyo underwhelming? Tamiyo is basically Ajani Vengeant, and Ajani vengeant is easily the best R/W card in cube IMHO. Tamiyo is just one mana more and the -2 is pretty good as well. Also another advantage with tamiyo is the ability to tap down something that isn't tapped, something Ajani V cannot do. Tamiyo also has more starting loyalty counters for that extra mana. And the draw ability isn't that bad, as sometimes drawing 3 cards is quite solid. And the ultimate is just nuts when you pair it with anything really.
Overall like the formatting of the opening post and I agree with most of your choices. I know I'll love being able to steal 'walkers with zealous conscripts, and if I manage to fire off an ultimate via conscripts I will be quite happy.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
"Ever since Tamiyo was spoiled, I've been totally underwhelmed by her and was happy that for once I wouldn't have to automatically jam the new set's planeswalkers into my cube. But everyone won't stop talking about how amazing she is. She seems like a more expensive Ajani V, with a practically non-existant -2 ability and a worse ultimate. Help?"
You can skip on the RR one, so not every planeswalker is a staple.
Saying she's unfavorable in comparison to Ajani Vengeant isn't really fair, considering that A) it's not a blue card, B) it's two colors and C) it's one of the very top planeswalkers in the cube.
Her ability taps the threat, not just keeping it from untapping which is clutch for removing blockers and circumventing lifelink. It's a like a hybrid combination of an Icy effect and Ajani V's {+1}. And it's an effect that blue wants, that doesn't have a mana upkeep to use it.
A non-existent {-2}? Really? A repeatable draw effect that draws multiple cards at a time is really good. Attack with some of your creatures, play her and draw cards. With and against token or aggro strategies, she can draw a ton of cards. And perhaps multiple times. And it has synergy with her first ability.
Her ultimate isn't a 1-sided Armageddon. But does that mean it sucks? Absolutely not. Her ultimate is ripe for all kinds of abuse, and like pretty much every walker out there, the ultimate is irrelevant. It's a game-ending win-more effect, and the 'walker is evaluated on it's other abilities anyways. Hers is no different. Giving you infinite spells and permanents that can't die is pretty good.
She also will pass the first turn she's on the table with 5 loyalty and neutralizing a threat of theirs. She protects herself very well and has a robust amount of health.
I guess I find her underwhelming because I look at her +1 and say "well, Ajani V. does that for less mana (yes, it doesn't tap the target but that's never really an issue)." Then I look at her CMC and say "well, Jace 3 ends the game if you untap with him twice. Does Tamiyo do that?" Well, no. But I suppose she does increase the likelihood that you *will* untap with her twice.
I hadn't considered using her -2 on yourself. That helps quite a bit, and I'm willing to give her a shot.
I suppose the bottom line is that there's just certain cards (psychatog, I'm looking at you) that are worshiped among the cube cognoscenti that just make me and my players scratch our heads.
I guess I find her underwhelming because I look at her +1 and say "well, Ajani V. does that for less mana (yes, it doesn't tap the target but that's never really an issue)." Then I look at her CMC and say "well, Jace 3 ends the game if you untap with him twice. Does Tamiyo do that?" Well, no. But I suppose she does increase the likelihood that you *will* untap with her twice.
I hadn't considered using her -2 on yourself. That helps quite a bit, and I'm willing to give her a shot.
I suppose the bottom line is that there's just certain cards (psychatog, I'm looking at you) that are worshiped among the cube cognoscenti that just make me and my players scratch our heads.
I am with you that Tamiyo is not the 2nd coming of Ancestral Recall in cube. She is a solid middle of the pack planeswalker that functions pretty admirably in cube. The question is for me, what do I cut for her, I have been leaning towards bribery, but I really hate cutting such an incredibly versatile spell for blue. I honestly do not know where the cut will finally end up and am testing a few things.
She makes a fine 4-6 pick in most packs in 360 and that isnt bad. Hell, in some packs, I can potentially see her going first or 2nd, all things considered.
I do believe, though, that there is going to get a point soon where we will have to sit and look at what planeswalkers to include b/c if they keep printing solid ones things will get a bit packed if we put them all in our cubes. To be honest, I dont think it will be so bad if there becomes a few "correct" choices rather than mandatory (i.e. imagine where you could choose between three planeswalkers of the caliber of ajanni vengeant for the R/W walker spot).
I suppose the bottom line is that there's just certain cards (psychatog, I'm looking at you) that are worshiped among the cube cognoscenti that just make me and my players scratch our heads.
Likewise, every time Psychatog kills a new player, they get it. "Did that 3-drop just attack me for 14?" Hm.
The above is not an exaggeration. Psychatog is Serious Business. Players can attest to this if they played Magic when Odyssey was new, circa 2001. There's a reason it was known as the best creature in the game before Tarmogoyf showed up.
Great review! And because I am lazy, will just go from #1 downwards to check which cards I will include. I would seriously consider the top 10 for my 450, as well as Uvenwald Sage and Wolfir Avenger.
I guess I find her underwhelming because I look at her +1 and say "well, Ajani V. does that for less mana (yes, it doesn't tap the target but that's never really an issue)." Then I look at her CMC and say "well, Jace 3 ends the game if you untap with him twice. Does Tamiyo do that?" Well, no. But I suppose she does increase the likelihood that you *will* untap with her twice.
So, you consider her underwhelming because she's not Ajani Vengeant + Jace, the Mind Sculptor? Cube cards have a serious hurdle to pass when trying to impress you.
Quote from guyincorporated »
I suppose the bottom line is that there's just certain cards (psychatog, I'm looking at you) that are worshiped among the cube cognoscenti that just make me and my players scratch our heads.
To clarify, I didn't say Tamiyo was the new replacement for Jace or Ajani V. I said she was good enough for my 360 cube, for all the reasons I outlined ...twice. You don't have to include her if you don't want to. But she's been good for me so far.
And Psychatog is my favorite Dimir card. Winning the game for 3 mana is good.
Quote from JinxedIdol »
Great review! And because I am lazy, will just go from #1 downwards to check which cards I will include. I would seriously consider the top 10 for my 450, as well as Uvenwald Sage and Wolfir Avenger.
That takes all the fun out of it! But I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Not yet. In fact, I think White still has better planeswalkers. Blue has more in right now, but the combined power-level of Elspeth 1.0 and Gideon Jura is higher than the combo of planeswalkers in any of the other colors, even blue's Jace 2.0 and Jace 3.0 combo. Tamiyo is good so far, but she's not breaking the color or anything. Blue was pretty good anyways.
Green's PW suite is pretty savage too.
The cube needs a sick black 4cc 'walker.
There may reach a point where there's too many cube-worthy 'walkers, but we haven't reached it yet (and I don't think I will any time soon).
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I am new to cube and I'm trying to build a 360. I was wondering if you could point me to lists that have the best mulit-colored cards you were talking about. You referred to U/R (Desolate Lighthouse), U/G (Alchemist's Refuge), G/W (Sigarda), and W/R (Slayers' Stronghold) in your review. What are better cards in these guilds that you think edge them out?
360 cubes don't typically use more than three cards in each color combination, so the lands have some fierce competition to crack into.
Izzet has Fire // Ice, Electrolyze and Prophetic Bolt, which are all kinda the same card, but they're good at what they do. I'd rank the Desolate Lighthouse 4th after those cards.
Simic is pretty deep for small cubes. It has Trygon Predator, Mystic Snake and Simic Sky Swallower (the three I cube with at 360) and a 4th great option in Edric, Spymaster of Trest that could easily go in as well. The Alchemist's Refuge is good, but I can't see it cracking into lists that run less than 5 support cards for each combination, which makes it a 540+ card, IMO.
Selesnya has Kitchen Finks, Qasali Pridemage and Loam Lion to compete with. I rank Sigarda, Host of Herons just behind those three because she's another mid-range and control creature in a combination that has a ton of them available, and the three existing cards are important to have to reach a critical mass of certain effects/bodies. There are also people that love Mirari's Wake that rank it as their top card in that section, which makes it even harder to have Sigarda crack in for some cubes.
Boros, on the other hand, only has 3 existing good cube options, which are Ajani Vengeant, Figure of Destiny and Lightning Helix. I personally rank the Slayers' Stronghold ahead of the Helix and play it in my 360 now. The land is REALLY good. But I could see skeptics and huge fans of Helix keeping it in and ranking the Stronghold 4th on their list.
Hope that helps, and don't hesitate to stop by my cube thread with any questions regarding your 360 design if you want to. The link is in my sig. Happy cubing!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
As for the rest, after some serious sealed, winston, small drafts and a big 8-player draft, I was pleased with some of the inclusions.
Tamiyo- Worked out pretty well here. An icy manipulator that steadily built up to a back breaking ultimate. I did see her ult just once...and still lose. Yeah, jitte does that when you are already back on your heals...especially on thrun. I still dont think she is as backbreaking as jace 2 and three. Definitely solid, probably wont see a cut any time soon, but definitely not one of the allstars of blue.
Slayer's stronghold- goodbye lightning helix. This is the little land that could. I love going boros or naya in cube (second only to some blue control variant) and this land does everything I want and more.
Desolate lighthouse- what a difference 1 mana makes. I have not tested this yet, and if I ever move my cube up to 450, its an auto include, until then, ill sit it for the UR damage/draw trio.
And yes, my trio of edris, trygon and the snake are too good of buddies to break up over the alchemist's refuge.
Wow, thanks! I really appreciate your help. When I get a little more time, I'll definitely stop by your 360 thread and ask more questions. I'm building an unpowered one, but I really like your list. I think I can take a lot from it. I'd also be interested in hearing your top picks for all of the other guilds. Thanks for your help.
I agree with your consensus, and I think your evaluations are pretty spot-on.
You're welcome. And if you wanna know what my top 3 cards for each guild are, you can look at the list in my thread, because I use those top cards in my own list.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
That said, I feel like I'm at a support group:
"Hi everyone. My name's Guy and I fail at card evaluation."
"Hi Guy."
"Ever since Tamiyo was spoiled, I've been totally underwhelmed by her and was happy that for once I wouldn't have to automatically jam the new set's planeswalkers into my cube. But everyone won't stop talking about how amazing she is. She seems like a more expensive Ajani V, with a practically non-existant -2 ability and a worse ultimate. Help?"
Also, how do people find tamiyo underwhelming? Tamiyo is basically Ajani Vengeant, and Ajani vengeant is easily the best R/W card in cube IMHO. Tamiyo is just one mana more and the -2 is pretty good as well. Also another advantage with tamiyo is the ability to tap down something that isn't tapped, something Ajani V cannot do. Tamiyo also has more starting loyalty counters for that extra mana. And the draw ability isn't that bad, as sometimes drawing 3 cards is quite solid. And the ultimate is just nuts when you pair it with anything really.
Overall like the formatting of the opening post and I agree with most of your choices. I know I'll love being able to steal 'walkers with zealous conscripts, and if I manage to fire off an ultimate via conscripts I will be quite happy.
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You can skip on the RR one, so not every planeswalker is a staple.
Saying she's unfavorable in comparison to Ajani Vengeant isn't really fair, considering that A) it's not a blue card, B) it's two colors and C) it's one of the very top planeswalkers in the cube.
Her ability taps the threat, not just keeping it from untapping which is clutch for removing blockers and circumventing lifelink. It's a like a hybrid combination of an Icy effect and Ajani V's {+1}. And it's an effect that blue wants, that doesn't have a mana upkeep to use it.
A non-existent {-2}? Really? A repeatable draw effect that draws multiple cards at a time is really good. Attack with some of your creatures, play her and draw cards. With and against token or aggro strategies, she can draw a ton of cards. And perhaps multiple times. And it has synergy with her first ability.
Her ultimate isn't a 1-sided Armageddon. But does that mean it sucks? Absolutely not. Her ultimate is ripe for all kinds of abuse, and like pretty much every walker out there, the ultimate is irrelevant. It's a game-ending win-more effect, and the 'walker is evaluated on it's other abilities anyways. Hers is no different. Giving you infinite spells and permanents that can't die is pretty good.
She also will pass the first turn she's on the table with 5 loyalty and neutralizing a threat of theirs. She protects herself very well and has a robust amount of health.
So the real question, is:
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I hadn't considered using her -2 on yourself. That helps quite a bit, and I'm willing to give her a shot.
I suppose the bottom line is that there's just certain cards (psychatog, I'm looking at you) that are worshiped among the cube cognoscenti that just make me and my players scratch our heads.
I am with you that Tamiyo is not the 2nd coming of Ancestral Recall in cube. She is a solid middle of the pack planeswalker that functions pretty admirably in cube. The question is for me, what do I cut for her, I have been leaning towards bribery, but I really hate cutting such an incredibly versatile spell for blue. I honestly do not know where the cut will finally end up and am testing a few things.
She makes a fine 4-6 pick in most packs in 360 and that isnt bad. Hell, in some packs, I can potentially see her going first or 2nd, all things considered.
I do believe, though, that there is going to get a point soon where we will have to sit and look at what planeswalkers to include b/c if they keep printing solid ones things will get a bit packed if we put them all in our cubes. To be honest, I dont think it will be so bad if there becomes a few "correct" choices rather than mandatory (i.e. imagine where you could choose between three planeswalkers of the caliber of ajanni vengeant for the R/W walker spot).
The above is not an exaggeration. Psychatog is Serious Business. Players can attest to this if they played Magic when Odyssey was new, circa 2001. There's a reason it was known as the best creature in the game before Tarmogoyf showed up.
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So, you consider her underwhelming because she's not Ajani Vengeant + Jace, the Mind Sculptor? Cube cards have a serious hurdle to pass when trying to impress you.
To clarify, I didn't say Tamiyo was the new replacement for Jace or Ajani V. I said she was good enough for my 360 cube, for all the reasons I outlined ...twice. You don't have to include her if you don't want to. But she's been good for me so far.
And Psychatog is my favorite Dimir card. Winning the game for 3 mana is good.
That takes all the fun out of it! But I'm glad you enjoyed it.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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