I've been designing a cube along these lines, and quite frankly it is very difficult to strike the balance between including narrow archetype enablers and more broadly compelling (read: versatile, powerful) cards. Because cards that are both narrow and weak are unplayable, and because "weak" is relative, I've found that excluding some of the most powerful and versatile cards (Power, Swords to Plowshares, Jitte, Wheel of Fortune, etc) is wise because they render useless the less powerful, narrower cards. An inverse relationship between versatility and power is critical for a healthy environment. On the other hand, you really want to maximize the versatility of each card so that as many archetypes as possible can be supported, and maximize the power level because most players find more-powerful cubes more fun (because their decks are so good). Therein lies the rub!
A very good point, and one that has a lot to do with context. In my Weatherlight Cube for example, I'm running Phyrexian Hulk, a card which is generally not considered as being Cube-worthy - and for good reason. In the context of that particular Cube however, it is a card that is: a) right on theme, and b) offers to every color in the Cube a body that is larger than what was seen on most creatures from that time period, and which happens to be resilient to a good chunk of removal found in the Cube.
Usually, a meh card at best. But in this particular setting, it's a pretty good one.
And this is one of the reason why I appreciate seeing themes and sub-themes in Cube, in matters of both style and design. They allow for a greater range of options for the Cube designer(s), and greater variety for the player(s).
This is a great thread and very timely as this is exactly where I am currently - looking to plan out my future cube changes so that they follow a plan. Up until now, my cube has gone through 2 stages: 1) get something together, even if it's not ideal; 2) make changes as finances permit by following the advice and example of the cube masters on this forum. (My cube is loosely based on eidolon's at this stage). I'm ready for the next stage.
For me, though, this is where good planning comes in. Of course, play testing and tuning are crucial, but it has to begin with a plan (for a top-down thinker like me, anyway).
For now I'm not that interested in extremely narrow sub-themes. I think that every card in the cube should be of a reasonable power level (this forum helps ensure this is the case) and should be a reasonable inclusion in more than one archetype.
I'm starting with a map of the archetypes that I'd like to support. I'm doing it by colour pair to begin with as I think that when people draft and get into certain colours, they should have a couple of options on direction. I've posted this on my own cube listing thread but I'll post it again here as it may be a better forum for feedback:
In the first instance, I'd be keen to know whether anyone else is using a similar map and of course whether you are or not, what archetypes do you support by colour pair?
One thing that I'm looking at closely is how similar archetypes are across colours. There are a lot of aggro decks listed, and to me they shouldn't all just be interchangeable. Each colour pair should have an identity, or even a couple of identities.
EDIT: To be clear, this is intended for cubes that will generally see 6+ drafters. I agree that smaller groups, especially those that primarily Winston draft, should design their cubes accordingly. I have an item on my list to look into this myself but to me there are a lot of design decisions that I would make differently in that circumstance.
One thing that I'm looking at closely is how similar archetypes are across colours. There are a lot of aggro decks listed, and to me they shouldn't all just be interchangeable. Each colour pair should have an identity, or even a couple of identities.
I'm not using a similar archetype map by color pair. However, I can tell you about what's supported in each base color. Archetypes for any given pair are usually driven by the intersection of the two colors.
I'm speaking from my current cube project which is a little atypical. I have a more 'regular' cube which hasn't gotten maintenance this year due to other hobbies:
In general, each color in my cube has two main identities. The most successful decks are drafted with knowledge of which type of cards you want, because the value of those cards varies dramatically between the two sides of the color that you're accessing.
White
White in my cube basically supports primarily white weenie and rebels decks. I'm using the RebelCube concept where cards get errata'd to make them rebels, with rebelsearchers then being included. Tokens cards that are included are good in a white-weenie context or else are included to help control stall games. Note that white as a whole doesn't support control well.
Blue
Blue in my cube is split between tempo and control, essentially meaning that it supports Delver or Cawblade style decks, or decks that would make Guillaume Wafo-Tapa proud. Note that in order to do this, there are a lot more control cards in Blue than in the other colors, but a lot less than I see in most cubes. 60%+ of the blue cards are for tempo.
Black
Black in my cube basically supports either suicide aggro or grindy attrition. This is one of the colors where knowing your role is most vital, as many of the cards that are good for either type of black are nearly unplayable for the other type of black deck. Doing this again means that 60%+ of the cards are good for suicide aggro.
Red
Red is most homogenous, in that it supports fast beats and burn. In a strict monored deck that means that most of the cards are all useful to the deck, but multicolored decks are vastly more interested in specific sides of what the red section has to offer.
Green
Green supports midrange and ramp. It specifically does not support tempo aggro -- its tempo cards are massive 5-mana gamewreckers that it needs to ramp to use in a reasonable timeframe.
Common multicolor combinations are:
UG
UG ramp that poaches some of blue controls finishers and card advantage powerhouses and ramps into them. This is a lot like Turboland from a couple of standard seasons ago.
UB
UB tempo that pairs suicide aggro with blue's tempo aggro cards.
UB control that pairs the exact opposite halves of UB from the previous idea.
GW
GW curve, a deck which pairs the best 1's and 2's out of white with the best 3's and 4's out of green, with some of green's ramp dudes but not much. This mostly comes together around cards like Stoneforge, Noble Hierarch, and similar. This is a lot like Legacy Maverick.
RG
RG Ponza, a deck with almost no bottom end that wants to ramp rapidly and deny you lands before resolving large ugly fatties. Sometimes also skips the LD and is just literally RG Ramp.
RB
RB aggro, which needs to tilt strongly to one or the other, but fills out its curve and has additional removal by dipping into the other. Probably the objectively fastest aggro deck except when only one person winds up in red and has total monored.
RB burn, which pairs black's attrition and card advantage with red's burn. This deck plays amazingly few creatures, and just either literally counts to 20 with their burn or plays a 2-power 1-drop and just never lets you block it.
WR
WR beats, the other fastest aggro deck, pairing white and red beatdown creatures with what burn it can get. This one has more ways to go over the top, but less reach or traditional CA.
WB
WB, usually a failed deck. White just doesn't need what black has to offer, mostly. I'm interested to see if a WB rebel deck emerges eventually, pairing black's attrition game with the rebel aspect of white's ability to grind out stalled board states.
UR
UR counterburn, which dabbles in both sides of blue but mostly only wants red's burn for added removal and reach.
UW
UW no-tapout, which wants to use white's rebelsearchers and defensive cards to build a board while controlling heavily.
UW tempo, which wants white's beaters and blue's tempo cards. Sometimes also wins by repurposing blue's tempo cards into a blink shell and just taking opponents to valuetown.
GB
GB rock, archetypal midrange, usually using green's midrange fatties and black's attrition/disruption cards. Includes survival/value reanimation shenanigans often.
Massively Multicolored
3+ color control, which takes the removal and most controlling cards from several colors and pairs them with ramp and fixing. Very similar to '5-color control' from Alara-block drafts.
It looks like the biggest difference in our maps is that you see more green-based aggro. This deck rarely came together in my normal cube, so I've basically just removed support for it to better support ramp and midrange. I think that even informs your definition of UG as more of a tempo deck than a ramp one.
Blue Tempo - I have been cutting spells for creatures, and really emphasizing creature based strategies that rely on powerful enchantments like Equilibrium and Opposition
Deck Archetypes I Don't Like
Splinter Twin - Having the combo in the cube felt very forced, and even winning with it wasn't particularly satisfying. Although Splinter Twin has other uses, the narrowness of the enablers really turned me off. Part of the fun of draft is evaluating the conditional utility of cards. The closer you go towards the 0/1 extremes of "useless" and "all-star", the less fun it is.
I'm glad to see other people pushing blue tempo. I've gotten very tired of 'control only' blue in cubes, and really love to see blue with a 50/50 mix that lets it effectively leverage the cards you mentioned. Tempo-aggro works way better with more blue tempo bodies in the cube.
As to twin, I don't properly support it. Pestermite gets a slot as an excellent tempo body, and Kiki-jiki has a spot for novelty and letting red abuse ETB shenanigans. Thus far, I've never actually seen them get together, but maybe after Tooth and Nail makes it into the Cube: Legacy later.
Thanks for your posts! This is exactly the type of thing that I'm trying to do.
@Lork: With the exception of the Rebel theme, I agree on most accounts. I'm still processing the information and will update my own map. The next step would then be to classify the cards in each section by the archetype (in the map) that they support. The answer can be multiple, since, for example, most aggro or control decks would still happily include Path to Exile.
Once the initial pass is done, that's when I need to layer some of the specific "themes" in. This is where the next post comes in...
@Trunkers: Reanimator, Ramp and Blue Tempo are all archetypes that I'm looking at very closely right now. I'd currently throw Tokens in the mix as well, as I believe that it can be a viable extension of other decks that pulls the focus into gaining benefit from the abundance of bodies. (Generally White-based, with Black or Green as secondary colour).
The Braids/Stax/Pox deck is something that I hadn't considered but will take a look at. From your perspective, what are some of the "stock cube cards" that work well in this deck? I'm particularly interested in supporting this type of archetype if it works well with existing cards and only requires a few tweaks to make it strong.
I'm not interested in the narrow combo archetypes. I know that some people like this stuff, but I'm personally not a big fan and I'm happy to tune the cube without it in the meantime...perhaps I'll return to the question in the future.
That said, I'm also considering whether to support an artifact deck, but it doesn't seem to be like you described (I didn't follow the link though). I'm just talking about getting value from artifacts and running good support, like the Tezzerets, Tolarian Academy, Tinker, etc. I don't currently run these. But I also don't run Sol Ring and I'm wondering whether this is a requirement for this type of deck as it seems to really want to pull away on artifact mana...which is kind of against my philosophy of making Green the ramp colour.
@Trunkers: Reanimator, Ramp and Blue Tempo are all archetypes that I'm looking at very closely right now. I'd currently throw Tokens in the mix as well, as I believe that it can be a viable extension of other decks that pulls the focus into gaining benefit from the abundance of bodies. (Generally White-based, with Black or Green as secondary colour).
The Braids/Stax/Pox deck is something that I hadn't considered but will take a look at. From your perspective, what are some of the "stock cube cards" that work well in this deck? I'm particularly interested in supporting this type of archetype if it works well with existing cards and only requires a few tweaks to make it strong.
Also interested in this myself. Haven't ever supported this in cube myself because I felt like Stax needed narrow cards. Braids and Smokestack seem potentially fine on their own, although both are a bit lackluster in an unpowered environment IMO.
Anyone else running them in an unpowered environment to good effect? What are the other cards to surround them with?
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A very good point, and one that has a lot to do with context. In my Weatherlight Cube for example, I'm running Phyrexian Hulk, a card which is generally not considered as being Cube-worthy - and for good reason. In the context of that particular Cube however, it is a card that is: a) right on theme, and b) offers to every color in the Cube a body that is larger than what was seen on most creatures from that time period, and which happens to be resilient to a good chunk of removal found in the Cube.
Usually, a meh card at best. But in this particular setting, it's a pretty good one.
And this is one of the reason why I appreciate seeing themes and sub-themes in Cube, in matters of both style and design. They allow for a greater range of options for the Cube designer(s), and greater variety for the player(s).
For me, though, this is where good planning comes in. Of course, play testing and tuning are crucial, but it has to begin with a plan (for a top-down thinker like me, anyway).
For now I'm not that interested in extremely narrow sub-themes. I think that every card in the cube should be of a reasonable power level (this forum helps ensure this is the case) and should be a reasonable inclusion in more than one archetype.
I'm starting with a map of the archetypes that I'd like to support. I'm doing it by colour pair to begin with as I think that when people draft and get into certain colours, they should have a couple of options on direction. I've posted this on my own cube listing thread but I'll post it again here as it may be a better forum for feedback:
:symw::symu:
Control
Aggro-Control/Tempo
:symu::symb:
Control
Tempo
Reanimator
:symb::symr:
Rakdos Deck Wins (aggro/burn)
Aggro/Disruption (Sligh)
:symr::symg:
Ramp
Aggro
:symg::symw:
Midrange/Ramp
Aggro
:symw::symb:
WB Aggro Discard
WB Midrange/Combo
WB Tokens
:symb::symg:
Midrange (Rock)
Reanimator (incl. Rec-Sur combo)
:symg::symu:
Aggro-control/Tempo
:symu::symr:
CounterBurn
:symr::symw:
Aggro
Control ~
In the first instance, I'd be keen to know whether anyone else is using a similar map and of course whether you are or not, what archetypes do you support by colour pair?
One thing that I'm looking at closely is how similar archetypes are across colours. There are a lot of aggro decks listed, and to me they shouldn't all just be interchangeable. Each colour pair should have an identity, or even a couple of identities.
EDIT: To be clear, this is intended for cubes that will generally see 6+ drafters. I agree that smaller groups, especially those that primarily Winston draft, should design their cubes accordingly. I have an item on my list to look into this myself but to me there are a lot of design decisions that I would make differently in that circumstance.
My Cube
My Blog
I'm not using a similar archetype map by color pair. However, I can tell you about what's supported in each base color. Archetypes for any given pair are usually driven by the intersection of the two colors.
I'm speaking from my current cube project which is a little atypical. I have a more 'regular' cube which hasn't gotten maintenance this year due to other hobbies:
White
White in my cube basically supports primarily white weenie and rebels decks. I'm using the RebelCube concept where cards get errata'd to make them rebels, with rebelsearchers then being included. Tokens cards that are included are good in a white-weenie context or else are included to help control stall games. Note that white as a whole doesn't support control well.
Blue
Blue in my cube is split between tempo and control, essentially meaning that it supports Delver or Cawblade style decks, or decks that would make Guillaume Wafo-Tapa proud. Note that in order to do this, there are a lot more control cards in Blue than in the other colors, but a lot less than I see in most cubes. 60%+ of the blue cards are for tempo.
Black
Black in my cube basically supports either suicide aggro or grindy attrition. This is one of the colors where knowing your role is most vital, as many of the cards that are good for either type of black are nearly unplayable for the other type of black deck. Doing this again means that 60%+ of the cards are good for suicide aggro.
Red
Red is most homogenous, in that it supports fast beats and burn. In a strict monored deck that means that most of the cards are all useful to the deck, but multicolored decks are vastly more interested in specific sides of what the red section has to offer.
Green
Green supports midrange and ramp. It specifically does not support tempo aggro -- its tempo cards are massive 5-mana gamewreckers that it needs to ramp to use in a reasonable timeframe.
Common multicolor combinations are:
UG
UG ramp that poaches some of blue controls finishers and card advantage powerhouses and ramps into them. This is a lot like Turboland from a couple of standard seasons ago.
UB
UB tempo that pairs suicide aggro with blue's tempo aggro cards.
UB control that pairs the exact opposite halves of UB from the previous idea.
GW
GW curve, a deck which pairs the best 1's and 2's out of white with the best 3's and 4's out of green, with some of green's ramp dudes but not much. This mostly comes together around cards like Stoneforge, Noble Hierarch, and similar. This is a lot like Legacy Maverick.
RG
RG Ponza, a deck with almost no bottom end that wants to ramp rapidly and deny you lands before resolving large ugly fatties. Sometimes also skips the LD and is just literally RG Ramp.
RB
RB aggro, which needs to tilt strongly to one or the other, but fills out its curve and has additional removal by dipping into the other. Probably the objectively fastest aggro deck except when only one person winds up in red and has total monored.
RB burn, which pairs black's attrition and card advantage with red's burn. This deck plays amazingly few creatures, and just either literally counts to 20 with their burn or plays a 2-power 1-drop and just never lets you block it.
WR
WR beats, the other fastest aggro deck, pairing white and red beatdown creatures with what burn it can get. This one has more ways to go over the top, but less reach or traditional CA.
WB
WB, usually a failed deck. White just doesn't need what black has to offer, mostly. I'm interested to see if a WB rebel deck emerges eventually, pairing black's attrition game with the rebel aspect of white's ability to grind out stalled board states.
UR
UR counterburn, which dabbles in both sides of blue but mostly only wants red's burn for added removal and reach.
UW
UW no-tapout, which wants to use white's rebelsearchers and defensive cards to build a board while controlling heavily.
UW tempo, which wants white's beaters and blue's tempo cards. Sometimes also wins by repurposing blue's tempo cards into a blink shell and just taking opponents to valuetown.
GB
GB rock, archetypal midrange, usually using green's midrange fatties and black's attrition/disruption cards. Includes survival/value reanimation shenanigans often.
Massively Multicolored
3+ color control, which takes the removal and most controlling cards from several colors and pairs them with ramp and fixing. Very similar to '5-color control' from Alara-block drafts.
It looks like the biggest difference in our maps is that you see more green-based aggro. This deck rarely came together in my normal cube, so I've basically just removed support for it to better support ramp and midrange. I think that even informs your definition of UG as more of a tempo deck than a ramp one.
I'm glad to see other people pushing blue tempo. I've gotten very tired of 'control only' blue in cubes, and really love to see blue with a 50/50 mix that lets it effectively leverage the cards you mentioned. Tempo-aggro works way better with more blue tempo bodies in the cube.
As to twin, I don't properly support it. Pestermite gets a slot as an excellent tempo body, and Kiki-jiki has a spot for novelty and letting red abuse ETB shenanigans. Thus far, I've never actually seen them get together, but maybe after Tooth and Nail makes it into the Cube: Legacy later.
@Lork: With the exception of the Rebel theme, I agree on most accounts. I'm still processing the information and will update my own map. The next step would then be to classify the cards in each section by the archetype (in the map) that they support. The answer can be multiple, since, for example, most aggro or control decks would still happily include Path to Exile.
Once the initial pass is done, that's when I need to layer some of the specific "themes" in. This is where the next post comes in...
@Trunkers: Reanimator, Ramp and Blue Tempo are all archetypes that I'm looking at very closely right now. I'd currently throw Tokens in the mix as well, as I believe that it can be a viable extension of other decks that pulls the focus into gaining benefit from the abundance of bodies. (Generally White-based, with Black or Green as secondary colour).
The Braids/Stax/Pox deck is something that I hadn't considered but will take a look at. From your perspective, what are some of the "stock cube cards" that work well in this deck? I'm particularly interested in supporting this type of archetype if it works well with existing cards and only requires a few tweaks to make it strong.
I'm not interested in the narrow combo archetypes. I know that some people like this stuff, but I'm personally not a big fan and I'm happy to tune the cube without it in the meantime...perhaps I'll return to the question in the future.
That said, I'm also considering whether to support an artifact deck, but it doesn't seem to be like you described (I didn't follow the link though). I'm just talking about getting value from artifacts and running good support, like the Tezzerets, Tolarian Academy, Tinker, etc. I don't currently run these. But I also don't run Sol Ring and I'm wondering whether this is a requirement for this type of deck as it seems to really want to pull away on artifact mana...which is kind of against my philosophy of making Green the ramp colour.
My Cube
My Blog
Also interested in this myself. Haven't ever supported this in cube myself because I felt like Stax needed narrow cards. Braids and Smokestack seem potentially fine on their own, although both are a bit lackluster in an unpowered environment IMO.
Anyone else running them in an unpowered environment to good effect? What are the other cards to surround them with?